Departure Question

[Mark Hansen]

On 01/10/09 01:34, VOR-DME wrote:
> Thanks to all for previous helpful replies.
> Here's a departure question. (Those who do not fly real airplanes under
> IFR need not feel compelled to reply):
>
> I'm departing a non-towered field IFR, let's stay East Coast, and say
> Bennington (KDDH), departing eastbound. There is a published departure
> proceedure, for obstacle (read mountain) clearance. Under Part 91, I am
> not required to follow this proceedure, but due to mountain obscuration I
> may wish to do so. What do I put in my flight plan, or in my
> communication via the local GCO to indicate whether I intend to return to
> the Cambridge VORTAC or not? Albany approach may have other IFR traffic
> coming into Bennington, so they will want to know if I am backtracking to
> CAM or not.
>
> Thanks in advance . . .
>

When you file your IFR flight plan, you should state that you intend
to fly the ODP (by placing it in the plan, as in ODP.Transition, Fix,
Fix, ... Destination).

When you get your clearance, you will be told what to do once you
enter controlled airspace.

Note that I haven't looked at the specific ODP you plan to use, so
if you think I'm missing something, please let me know.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Mark Hansen]

On 01/10/09 02:02, VOR-DME wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>>
>>When you file your IFR flight plan, you should state that you intend
>>to fly the ODP (by placing it in the plan, as in ODP.Transition, Fix,
>>Fix, ... Destination).
>>
>>When you get your clearance, you will be told what to do once you
>>enter controlled airspace.
>>
>>Note that I haven't looked at the specific ODP you plan to use, so
>>if you think I'm missing something, please let me know.
>
>
> Just that it doesn't have a name.
> It's not "RIVER ONE, BREZY TRANSITION"
> It is a published ODP, but has no name. . .
>
>
>

Oh, right. In that case, just put in the notes that "ODP will be used".
Basically, if the IFR clearance doesn't include instructions for departing
the airport, you're on your own. If you can't get to the initial fix/vector
visually, then it's in your best interest to use the published ODP - but
really, how you get to the initial segment of your clearance is up to you
(assuming departing from a non-towered field into uncontrolled airspace).

If the IFR clearance precludes something you wanted to do (double back to
the VOR), then you need to ask them once you make contact.

Does that answer the question, or am I still missing something?


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Sat, 10 Jan 2009 01:34:21 -0800, VOR-DME > wrote:

>Thanks to all for previous helpful replies.
>Here's a departure question. (Those who do not fly real airplanes under
>IFR need not feel compelled to reply):
>
>I'm departing a non-towered field IFR, let's stay East Coast, and say
>Bennington (KDDH), departing eastbound. There is a published departure
>proceedure, for obstacle (read mountain) clearance. Under Part 91, I am
>not required to follow this proceedure, but due to mountain obscuration I
>may wish to do so. What do I put in my flight plan, or in my
>communication via the local GCO to indicate whether I intend to return to
>the Cambridge VORTAC or not? Albany approach may have other IFR traffic
>coming into Bennington, so they will want to know if I am backtracking to
>CAM or not.
>
>Thanks in advance . . .

Technically, you don't have to put anything special in your flight plan,
nor communicate anything special to ATC. ATC should be aware that you
might fly the obstacle DP. You don't need any special clearance or
permission to do so UNLESS ATC assigns you a SID or radar vector. (If ATC
does that, then ATC is taking responsibility for obstacle clearance).

P/CG and also AIM 5-2-8 "...ODPs are recommended for obstruction clearance
and may be flown without ATC clearance unless an alternate departure
procedure (SID or radar vector) has been specifically assigned by ATC. "



Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[VOR-DME]

Thanks to all for previous helpful replies.
Here's a departure question. (Those who do not fly real airplanes under
IFR need not feel compelled to reply):

I'm departing a non-towered field IFR, let's stay East Coast, and say
Bennington (KDDH), departing eastbound. There is a published departure
proceedure, for obstacle (read mountain) clearance. Under Part 91, I am
not required to follow this proceedure, but due to mountain obscuration I
may wish to do so. What do I put in my flight plan, or in my
communication via the local GCO to indicate whether I intend to return to
the Cambridge VORTAC or not? Albany approach may have other IFR traffic
coming into Bennington, so they will want to know if I am backtracking to
CAM or not.

Thanks in advance . . .

[VOR-DME]

In article >,
says...

>
>When you file your IFR flight plan, you should state that you intend
>to fly the ODP (by placing it in the plan, as in ODP.Transition, Fix,
>Fix, ... Destination).
>
>When you get your clearance, you will be told what to do once you
>enter controlled airspace.
>
>Note that I haven't looked at the specific ODP you plan to use, so
>if you think I'm missing something, please let me know.


Just that it doesn't have a name.
It's not "RIVER ONE, BREZY TRANSITION"
It is a published ODP, but has no name. . .

[VOR-DME]

In article >,
says...
>
>
>On 01/10/09 02:02, VOR-DME wrote:
>> In article >,
>> says...
>>
>>>
>>>When you file your IFR flight plan, you should state that you intend
>>>to fly the ODP (by placing it in the plan, as in ODP.Transition, Fix,
>>>Fix, ... Destination).
>>>
>>>When you get your clearance, you will be told what to do once you
>>>enter controlled airspace.
>>>
>>>Note that I haven't looked at the specific ODP you plan to use, so
>>>if you think I'm missing something, please let me know.
>>
>>
>> Just that it doesn't have a name.
>> It's not "RIVER ONE, BREZY TRANSITION"
>> It is a published ODP, but has no name. . .
>>
>>
>>
>
>Oh, right. In that case, just put in the notes that "ODP will be used".
>Basically, if the IFR clearance doesn't include instructions for departing
>the airport, you're on your own. If you can't get to the initial fix/vector
>visually, then it's in your best interest to use the published ODP - but
>really, how you get to the initial segment of your clearance is up to you
>(assuming departing from a non-towered field into uncontrolled airspace).
>
>If the IFR clearance precludes something you wanted to do (double back to
>the VOR), then you need to ask them once you make contact.
>
>Does that answer the question, or am I still missing something?


No, pretty clear.
DORIS intersection, the most direct point for a NE bound entry to the system
is 3800ft (3000AAL) at 10 nm, so almost any equipment "should" be able to
make that, but in the case of mountain obscuration you might want to follow
the ODP (I would) which holds and climbs at the CAM VORTAC NW of the airport,
the same as the RWY 13 approach uses. So, ATC might want to know if you're
backtracking there, to sequence arrivals (in the extremely unlikely event
that anyone actually wants to go to Bennington, VT). Part 135 operations
"must" use it (unless they're VFR) - does ATC just assume this? If I plan to
use it, I'd be tempted to put ODP-CAM-VORTAC or something similar in the
flight plan. How does that sound?

The other complication is that the GCO goes to Burlington FSS, while the
actual trafic is monitored by Albany approach, so it matters that everyone be
onn the same "wavelength", if you'll permit my abuse of language. . .


>
>
>--
>Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
>Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
>Sacramento, CA

[Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]]

VOR-DME wrote:
>
> I'm departing a non-towered field IFR, let's stay East Coast, and say
> Bennington (KDDH), departing eastbound. There is a published departure
> proceedure, for obstacle (read mountain) clearance. Under Part 91, I
> am not required to follow this proceedure, but due to mountain
> obscuration I may wish to do so. What do I put in my flight plan, or
> in my communication via the local GCO to indicate whether I intend to
> return to the Cambridge VORTAC or not? Albany approach may have other
> IFR traffic coming into Bennington, so they will want to know if I am
> backtracking to CAM or not.
>

You should file what you intend to fly, DDH..CAM.V490... for example.
Here's a note from the paragraph on Departure Clearances in FAAA 7110.65:

"If a published IFR departure procedure is not included in an ATC clearance,
compliance with such a procedure is the pilot's prerogative."

However you're actually cleared you retain the option to fly the departure
procedure.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]]

VOR-DME wrote:
>
> I thank you, and the previous poster for these regulatory citations,
> which help to clarify. I actually did check my AIM before initiating
> this thread, and did not find any of this language indicating pilot's
> perogative to adhere to the ODP. My AIM is 2008. Has this language
> appeared or disappeared recently?
>

No, it's been there for quite some time.

>
> I did see this in 5-2-8 :
> "As a general rule, ATC will only assign an ODP from a non-towered
> airport when compliance with the ODP is necessary for aircraft to
> aircraft separation. Pilots may use the ODP to help ensure separation
> from terrain and obstacles."
>
> It would appear this specific case does not follow the "general rule"
> as the ODP published is clearly for terrain and accomplishes nothing
> for aircraft separation, which it could actually exacerbate if an
> aircraft is initiating an approach at the same fix.
>

All ODPs are created for terrain or obstacle clearance purposes, that's the
"O" in ODP. It's just that they will only be assigned if doing so assists
in separation between aircraft.

[Sam Spade]

VOR-DME wrote:
> Thanks to all for previous helpful replies.
> Here's a departure question. (Those who do not fly real airplanes under
> IFR need not feel compelled to reply):
>
> I'm departing a non-towered field IFR, let's stay East Coast, and say
> Bennington (KDDH), departing eastbound. There is a published departure
> proceedure, for obstacle (read mountain) clearance. Under Part 91, I am
> not required to follow this proceedure, but due to mountain obscuration I
> may wish to do so. What do I put in my flight plan, or in my
> communication via the local GCO to indicate whether I intend to return to
> the Cambridge VORTAC or not? Albany approach may have other IFR traffic
> coming into Bennington, so they will want to know if I am backtracking to
> CAM or not.
>
> Thanks in advance . . .
>
Put in the remarks that you will be flying the KDDH ODP and advise ATC
via the GCO prior to takeoff. Making sure you and ATC are on the same
page makes the system work the best.

[Sam Spade]

VOR-DME wrote:

>
> I'm surprised they don't just assign a name or designator to this type of ODP,
> the way they do with SID's, that you can just type into the form.
>

SIDs are air traffic procedures. ODPs are not, not even graphical ODPs.

This has always been a very weak area in pilot training because the
majority of CFI-Is, DPEs, and FAA FSDO inspectors don't understand it.

The FAA's current (2007) Instrument Procedures Handbook covers it quite
well.

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/instrument_procedures_handbook/

[Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]]

VOR-DME wrote:
>
> The previously cited phrase :
> "...ODPs are recommended for obstruction clearance
> and may be flown without ATC clearance unless an alternate departure
> procedure (SID or radar vector) has been specifically assigned by
> ATC. "
>
> is not in my 2008 AIM.
> Had it been, I would not have started this thread.
>

Are you referring to the Jeppesen FAR/AIM? It's in the 2006 edition,
paragraph 5-2-6 INSTRUMENT DEPARTURE PROCEDURES(DP)--OBSTACLE DEPARTURE
PROCEDURES(ODP) AND STANDARD INSTRUMENT DEPARTURES (SID), exactly as you
quote it above. The paragraph in the current AIM has the same title but is
now paragraph 5-2-8.

[VOR-DME]

I thank you, and the previous poster for these regulatory citations, which help
to clarify. I actually did check my AIM before initiating this thread, and did
not find any of this language indicating pilot's perogative to adhere to the
ODP. My AIM is 2008. Has this language appeared or disappeared recently?

I did see this in 5-2-8 :
"As a general rule, ATC will only assign an ODP from a non-towered airport when
compliance with the ODP is necessary for aircraft to aircraft separation.
Pilots may use the ODP to help ensure separation from terrain and obstacles."

It would appear this specific case does not follow the "general rule" as the
ODP published is clearly for terrain and accomplishes nothing for aircraft
separation, which it could actually exacerbate if an aircraft is initiating an
approach at the same fix.

I'm surprised they don't just assign a name or designator to this type of ODP,
the way they do with SID's, that you can just type into the form.





In article >,
says...
>
>
>VOR-DME wrote:
>>
>> I'm departing a non-towered field IFR, let's stay East Coast, and say
>> Bennington (KDDH), departing eastbound. There is a published departure
>> proceedure, for obstacle (read mountain) clearance. Under Part 91, I
>> am not required to follow this proceedure, but due to mountain
>> obscuration I may wish to do so. What do I put in my flight plan, or
>> in my communication via the local GCO to indicate whether I intend to
>> return to the Cambridge VORTAC or not? Albany approach may have other
>> IFR traffic coming into Bennington, so they will want to know if I am
>> backtracking to CAM or not.
>>
>
>You should file what you intend to fly, DDH..CAM.V490... for example.
>Here's a note from the paragraph on Departure Clearances in FAAA 7110.65:
>
>"If a published IFR departure procedure is not included in an ATC clearance,
>compliance with such a procedure is the pilot's prerogative."
>
>However you're actually cleared you retain the option to fly the departure
>procedure.
>
>

[VOR-DME]

In article >,
says...
>
>
>VOR-DME wrote:
>>
>> I thank you, and the previous poster for these regulatory citations,
>> which help to clarify. I actually did check my AIM before initiating
>> this thread, and did not find any of this language indicating pilot's
>> perogative to adhere to the ODP. My AIM is 2008. Has this language
>> appeared or disappeared recently?
>>
>
>No, it's been there for quite some time.

The previously cited phrase :
"...ODPs are recommended for obstruction clearance
and may be flown without ATC clearance unless an alternate departure
procedure (SID or radar vector) has been specifically assigned by ATC. "

is not in my 2008 AIM.
Had it been, I would not have started this thread.


>>
>
>All ODPs are created for terrain or obstacle clearance purposes, that's the
>"O" in ODP. It's just that they will only be assigned if doing so assists
>in separation between aircraft.
>

Got it. I took the word "assigned" to mean "created" as in the ODP would never
have been created except for aircraft separation purposes. My reading mistake.
>

[VOR-DME]

In article >, says...
>
>
>VOR-DME wrote:
>> Thanks to all for previous helpful replies.
>> Here's a departure question. (Those who do not fly real airplanes under
>> IFR need not feel compelled to reply):
>>
>> I'm departing a non-towered field IFR, let's stay East Coast, and say
>> Bennington (KDDH), departing eastbound. There is a published departure
>> proceedure, for obstacle (read mountain) clearance. Under Part 91, I am
>> not required to follow this proceedure, but due to mountain obscuration I
>> may wish to do so. What do I put in my flight plan, or in my
>> communication via the local GCO to indicate whether I intend to return to
>> the Cambridge VORTAC or not? Albany approach may have other IFR traffic
>> coming into Bennington, so they will want to know if I am backtracking to
>> CAM or not.
>>
>> Thanks in advance . . .
>>
>Put in the remarks that you will be flying the KDDH ODP and advise ATC
>via the GCO prior to takeoff. Making sure you and ATC are on the same
>page makes the system work the best.


Yep. Sounds right to me, after this discussion.
I would still plan to depart KDDH eastbound VFR to avoid wasting 15min in the
DP, if ceilings are 4000 or better (no mountain obscuration). With lower
ceilings (mountain obscuration) like you say makes sense. . .

Thanks to all.

[VOR-DME]

In article >,
says...
>
>
>VOR-DME wrote:
>>
>> The previously cited phrase :
>> "...ODPs are recommended for obstruction clearance
>> and may be flown without ATC clearance unless an alternate departure
>> procedure (SID or radar vector) has been specifically assigned by
>> ATC. "
>>
>> is not in my 2008 AIM.
>> Had it been, I would not have started this thread.
>>
>
>Are you referring to the Jeppesen FAR/AIM? It's in the 2006 edition,
>paragraph 5-2-6 INSTRUMENT DEPARTURE PROCEDURES(DP)--OBSTACLE DEPARTURE
>PROCEDURES(ODP) AND STANDARD INSTRUMENT DEPARTURES (SID), exactly as you
>quote it above. The paragraph in the current AIM has the same title but is
>now paragraph 5-2-8.
>
>
Yeah, you're right. Looked again and found it right at the beginning of the
subject in 5-2-8 of my 2008 Jepp FAR-AIM.
I was looking in the later, more detailed text . . .