Any fliers? [Archive] - AviationBanter

Ron

May 17th 04, 02:49 AM

>
>Ron, I was thinking about you when I heard the decision to ax all the old
>firebombers in the fleet. Any word yet on how soon they will replace them,
>or
>how they will provide qualified pilots for the "new" firebombers? That 747
>firebomber is freakin' amazing.
>
>Good luck in the future.
>v/r
>Gordon

The contracts were cancelled after the NTSB published a report saying that
there was not a system in place to assure airworthyness, and the Forest Circus
took that to mean they are the ones liable if anything goes wrong.

The western governors are up in arms, and congress might work on some kind of
emergency measure to bring the FAA into it somehow for some kind of inspection
program that they sign off on. The planes have been inspected heavily over the
past 2 years, and are probably safer than anytime since they came out of the
factory.

The planes are not grounded, we flew them back to the home base, they could
still be hired by states if they want. but I am optimistic something will be
soon soon to bring them back in operation.

As for that 747 system, thats an evergreen project, with some rumors of
homeland security funding. They are tanking up some additional planes now too
apparently, so I kinda suspect something fishy might be going on there.

I was out your way 2 weeks ago out of San Bernardino. Flew on a fire on camp
pendleton, temecula, riverside, and others during that busy week there.

The fleet has to be replaced soon, and hopefully forest service and congress
will help, because at the low ball rates the FS pays, they only maintain the
planes they have.

50 hours in the C-54 and hoping for more!

Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)
Silver City Tanker Base

Ron

May 17th 04, 02:50 AM

>Is the 747 firebomber a serious proposition ???????
>
>
>I first thought it was a Photoshop fantasy - then a proof of concept - but
>is it actually something that sober people are actually doing the numbers on
>?
>
>
>
>Cheers
>
>
>Dave Kearton

They have an aircraft tanked up, and have done lots of drops. I think there
are some situations that it can be good in, but I can think of a whole lot of
others too it might not be that great.

However, a lot of the concerns expressed about it being too big, were also said
when the B-17 was being introduced into forest fire work.

Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)
Silver City Tanker Base

John Carrier

May 17th 04, 03:00 AM

Sigh ....

True on both counts. Let's overlook the last (unmentioned) criterion.

R / John

"John R Weiss" > wrote in message
news:h_Tpc.63391$iF6.5578946@attbi_s02...
> "Krztalizer" > wrote...
> > >R / John (former fighter guy
> >
> > Oh, blarney. John, there is no such thing as a 'former fighter pilot'
and
> you
> > know it. You'll have fangs to the day you die.
>
> ...not to mention a big watch. :-)
>
>

George Z. Bush

May 17th 04, 03:05 AM

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> >
> >Ron, I was thinking about you when I heard the decision to ax all the old
> >firebombers in the fleet. Any word yet on how soon they will replace them,
> >or
> >how they will provide qualified pilots for the "new" firebombers? That 747
> >firebomber is freakin' amazing.
> >
> >Good luck in the future.
> >v/r
> >Gordon
>
> The contracts were cancelled after the NTSB published a report saying that
> there was not a system in place to assure airworthyness, and the Forest Circus
> took that to mean they are the ones liable if anything goes wrong.
>
> The western governors are up in arms, and congress might work on some kind of
> emergency measure to bring the FAA into it somehow for some kind of inspection
> program that they sign off on. The planes have been inspected heavily over
the
> past 2 years, and are probably safer than anytime since they came out of the
> factory.
>
> The planes are not grounded, we flew them back to the home base, they could
> still be hired by states if they want. but I am optimistic something will be
> soon soon to bring them back in operation.
>
> As for that 747 system, thats an evergreen project, with some rumors of
> homeland security funding. They are tanking up some additional planes now too
> apparently, so I kinda suspect something fishy might be going on there.
>
> I was out your way 2 weeks ago out of San Bernardino. Flew on a fire on camp
> pendleton, temecula, riverside, and others during that busy week there.
>
> The fleet has to be replaced soon, and hopefully forest service and congress
> will help, because at the low ball rates the FS pays, they only maintain the
> planes they have.
>
> 50 hours in the C-54 and hoping for more!

I hope you enjoyed them.....I know I did in the Rescue versions we flew, and I
hope you have many more. She's almost as good and forgiving a bird as the
gooney, an earlier Douglas contribution to aviation history.

George Z.

Ron

May 17th 04, 03:27 AM

>
>I hope you enjoyed them.....I know I did in the Rescue versions we flew, and
>I
>hope you have many more. She's almost as good and forgiving a bird as the
>gooney, an earlier Douglas contribution to aviation history.
>
>George Z.

I certainly have enjoyed it, although I think those mixtures are certainly in
an inconvenient place for the copilot.

Those douglas series 4/6/7 planes are really well built. The four has 2 wing
spars and a backup in case that fails. The main complaint I have about the 4
is that it is really underpowered. They fixed that in the 6 and 7.

My captain took a SA-7 hit over Africa in a DC-7, made it back to the airport.

Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)
Silver City Tanker Base

Krztalizer

May 17th 04, 05:19 AM

>
>I was out your way 2 weeks ago out of San Bernardino. Flew on a fire on camp
>pendleton, temecula, riverside, and others during that busy week there.

That area is such a tinderbox, I believe it will be keeping firefighters in
business forever. :\

Thanks for helping - sure not looking forward to late summer here. I'm betting
you'll be invited back.

v/r
Gordon

Krztalizer

May 17th 04, 05:22 AM

>
>Is the 747 firebomber a serious proposition ???????
>
>

Dave, would I ever lie to you? :)

no comments, all the rest of you bums out there.

G

Dave Kearton

May 17th 04, 06:06 AM

"Krztalizer" > wrote in message
...
| >
| >Is the 747 firebomber a serious proposition ???????
| >
| >
|
| Dave, would I ever lie to you? :)
|
| no comments, all the rest of you bums out there.
|
| G

Coupla years ago we had a pair of Canadairs (415s IIRC) on a demo tour,
during our fire season. The positioning flight was free - just pay the
hours on duty.

The distributors just didn't understand that $27M per airframe can buy a
whole lot of smaller and more useful planes. Every now and again they
give it another try, maybe they have too much money.

Our fires are generally different than yours, no lakes, no really large
dams and the nearest refilling point is at least half an hour away.
A dozen airtrucks with 1,800L on board is cheaper than one plane with
6,000L.

Here, the major fires are fought with helos and 'cab ranks' of smaller
planes lining up for a run and then going off to an empty field to land and
top up.

Cheers

Dave Kearton

Krztalizer

May 17th 04, 08:15 AM

>
>Our fires are generally different than yours, no lakes, no really large
>dams and the nearest refilling point is at least half an hour away.
>A dozen airtrucks with 1,800L on board is cheaper than one plane with
>6,000L.

Not uncommon to see a variety of bombers working multiple fires in a relatively
small geographic area. Looks like hell in a bowl. Worst part is ashfall,
knowing each fleck floating down is the remains of a 80 year old tree or
someone's bedroom furnishings. I hate that aspect of socal living.

yfG

Cub Driver

May 17th 04, 10:49 AM

On 16 May 2004 21:51:59 GMT, (Krztalizer) wrote:

>Oh, blarney. John, there is no such thing as a 'former fighter pilot' and you
>know it. You'll have fangs to the day you die.

I once made the mistake of referring to my flight instructor as an
ex-Marine.

"There ARE no ex-Marines!"

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

Dick Latshaw

May 17th 04, 01:14 PM

"John Carrier" > wrote in message >...
> Sigh ....
>
> True on both counts. Let's overlook the last (unmentioned) criterion.
>
> R / John
>
> "John R Weiss" > wrote in message
> news:h_Tpc.63391$iF6.5578946@attbi_s02...
> > "Krztalizer" > wrote...
> > > >R / John (former fighter guy
> > >
> > > Oh, blarney. John, there is no such thing as a 'former fighter pilot'
> and
> you
> > > know it. You'll have fangs to the day you die.
> >
> > ...not to mention a big watch. :-)

The Canon camera???

Regards,
Dick
Long ago MATS/MAC AC
T-34,T-37,T-33,C-47,C-123,CT/T-29,C-118,C-141

Dick Latshaw

May 17th 04, 01:14 PM

George Z. Bush

May 17th 04, 01:27 PM

"Krztalizer" > wrote in message
...
> >
> >Is the 747 firebomber a serious proposition ???????
> >
> >
>
> Dave, would I ever lie to you? :)
>
> no comments, all the rest of you bums out there.

Maybe the politics guys.....but us aviation guys? Us lie? Never!!! (^-^)))

George Z.
>
> G

BUFDRVR

May 17th 04, 02:26 PM

Vaughn wrote:

>Me. (Just today, in fact)

Sure, rub it in. Last sortie: 17 JUN 03, but hoping to return to flying by 17
JUN 05....

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

BUFDRVR

May 17th 04, 02:30 PM

Ed Rasimus wrote:

>T-37, T-38, F-105D & F, T-39D, F-4C, D, & E, AT-38B. (And a few cats &
>dogs sand-bag rides in other stuff.)

Damn, those were the days.....most guys are real lucky if they fly 3 different
airframes (not including the T-37 & T-38 flown during S/UPT) over the course of
a 20 year career now-a-days.

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

BUFDRVR

May 17th 04, 02:36 PM

Ron wrote:

>However, a lot of the concerns expressed about it being too big, were also
>said
>when the B-17 was being introduced into forest fire work.

I would think airspeed would be more of an issue. I mean, a 747 can obviously
carry *tons* of water, but how useful is that if your minimum dispersion (due
to your 250+ KIAS minimum safe airspeed) spreads that water along a *5 mile*
track?

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Ron

May 17th 04, 03:57 PM

>I would think airspeed would be more of an issue. I mean, a 747 can obviously
>carry *tons* of water, but how useful is that if your minimum dispersion (due
>to your 250+ KIAS minimum safe airspeed) spreads that water along a *5 mile*
>track?
>
>
>BUFDRVR

That is true. And often you want to drop retardant in fairly close proximity
to those people on the firelines, with with a 747, it will be such a deluge,
that you would have to get everyone pretty far away I would think.

You can get a lot lower with the current tankers and lay retardant more
precisely. . But I guess if you need a lot of it laided down quickly and
precision isnt a huge issue, the 747 project would probably have a role

Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)
Silver City Tanker Base

Chris Mark

May 17th 04, 05:17 PM

First took to the air in 1940.

Chris Mark

John R Weiss

May 17th 04, 06:45 PM

"BUFDRVR" > wrote...
>
> I would think airspeed would be more of an issue. I mean, a 747 can
obviously
> carry *tons* of water, but how useful is that if your minimum dispersion
(due
> to your 250+ KIAS minimum safe airspeed) spreads that water along a *5
mile*
> track?

Drop the flaps, and VREF is about 156 at max landing weight, and in the 120s
with no load and min fuel. V2 at Max TOGW (396.8 tonnes) is 181, so 200
knots is doable at any weight (747-400 numbers, but the -200 shouldn't be
too much different).

Since max zero fuel weight limits internal load to about 128 tonnes, that
would be the outer limit of water carriage ability (dispersing/dumping rates
notwithstanding). With a short-range fuel load, the airplane would be at or
below max landing weight at the beginning of a run, so 170-180 knots would
be very feasible. With less water, 150-160 knots would be possible.

Biggest hurdle would be a dispensing system with high enough rate and good
enough safeguards against adverse CG situations.

WaltBJ

May 17th 04, 07:29 PM

1) US should get a bunch of the Canadian turboprop amphib water
bombers.
2) Me. (original subject)
3) Taylorcraft, Aeronca, C152, PA18, T6, T7, T28, T33, F86F, F86D/L,
F94A/B, F100, F102, F104,F4D/E, U3A (tuna tank 310), C47.
Walt BJ

John Carrier

May 17th 04, 07:58 PM

Nope.

R / John

"Dick Latshaw" > wrote in message
om...
> "John Carrier" > wrote in message
>...
> > Sigh ....
> >
> > True on both counts. Let's overlook the last (unmentioned) criterion.
> >
> > R / John
> >
> > "John R Weiss" > wrote in message
> > news:h_Tpc.63391$iF6.5578946@attbi_s02...
> > > "Krztalizer" > wrote...
> > > > >R / John (former fighter guy
> > > >
> > > > Oh, blarney. John, there is no such thing as a 'former fighter
pilot'
> > and
> > you
> > > > know it. You'll have fangs to the day you die.
> > >
> > > ...not to mention a big watch. :-)
>
> The Canon camera???
>
> Regards,
> Dick
> Long ago MATS/MAC AC
> T-34,T-37,T-33,C-47,C-123,CT/T-29,C-118,C-141

BUFDRVR

May 17th 04, 08:11 PM

Ron wrote:

>But I guess if you need a lot of it laided down quickly and
>precision isnt a huge issue, the 747 project would probably have a role

I would love to see it....from a mile or so away.

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

BUFDRVR

May 17th 04, 08:15 PM

John R Weiss wrote:

>Drop the flaps, and VREF is about 156 at max landing weight

Flaps? Damn! How much maneuverability are you going to get with flaps and 180
KIAS? Remember, there's a fire down there and its going to be turbulant.....

>Since max zero fuel weight limits internal load to about 128 tonnes, that
>would be the outer limit of water carriage ability

Which by my guess is 100 tonnes more than the biggest carrier now!

>Biggest hurdle would be a dispensing system with high enough rate and good
>enough safeguards against adverse CG situations.

I've dropped 20 tonnes of weapons at once, I can't even imagine whats going to
go on dropping 7 times that much. Additionally bombs don't "slush"!

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

John S. Shinal

May 17th 04, 08:46 PM

(BUFDRVR) wrote:

>I would think airspeed would be more of an issue. I mean, a 747 can obviously
>carry *tons* of water, but how useful is that if your minimum dispersion (due
>to your 250+ KIAS minimum safe airspeed) spreads that water along a *5 mile*
>track?

Yer not thinking big enough ! Three B-52 waterbombers in a
cell formation, you could inundate a huge swath of area with a
watercarpet.

Probably a recipe for acres of burning mud, but who knows...

Ron

May 17th 04, 10:24 PM

>>But I guess if you need a lot of it laided down quickly and
>>precision isnt a huge issue, the 747 project would probably have a role
>
>I would love to see it....from a mile or so away.
>
>

There are some videos you can download from the evergreen site.

Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)
Silver City Tanker Base

Buzzer

May 17th 04, 10:50 PM

On Mon, 17 May 2004 19:46:21 GMT,
(John S. Shinal) wrote:

>(BUFDRVR) wrote:
>
>>I would think airspeed would be more of an issue. I mean, a 747 can obviously
>>carry *tons* of water, but how useful is that if your minimum dispersion (due
>>to your 250+ KIAS minimum safe airspeed) spreads that water along a *5 mile*
>>track?
>
> Yer not thinking big enough ! Three B-52 waterbombers in a
>cell formation, you could inundate a huge swath of area with a
>watercarpet.
>
> Probably a recipe for acres of burning mud, but who knows...

Your home was saved from the fire.
But it washed down the valley when the water hit it...

Vaughn

May 17th 04, 11:04 PM

"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
...
> Vaughn wrote:
>
> >Me. (Just today, in fact)
>
> Sure, rub it in. Last sortie: 17 JUN 03, but hoping to return to flying by 17
> JUN 05....

Yes, but my usual mount has 8 fewer engines than your BUF. I have one of
the most wonderful, yet most humble, gigs in commercial aviation. I am a
commercial sailplane rides pilot & CFI. http://www.barryaviation.com/

Vaughn

Jim Thomas

May 18th 04, 01:41 AM

> >Even a few MILITARY fliers!
> >
> >------------
> >John Weiss
> >LCDR, USN (Ret)
> >ex A-4, A-6, EA-6B Pilot
> >current 747 Pilot
> >
> >
>
> Are you the only one or are there more?

Here's mine: T-37, T-33, T-38, A-1, F-104, F/RF-4C, U-2, F-5E, F-15,
F-117, A-7, + one or two flights in a dozen or so more.

Jim Thomas

Jeb Hoge

May 18th 04, 01:42 AM

(Chris Mark) wrote in message >...
> First took to the air in 1940.

Hehehe, sorry, I know I don't know you, but I have this image of a kid
in 1940 on a trampoline bouncing up in the air and yelling "I'm
flying, I'm flying!!!"

Mortimer Schnerd, RN

May 18th 04, 03:34 AM

Vaughn wrote:
> Yes, but my usual mount has 8 fewer engines than your BUF. I have one
> of the most wonderful, yet most humble, gigs in commercial aviation. I am a
> commercial sailplane rides pilot & CFI. http://www.barryaviation.com/

The closest I've ever come to tossing my cookies in the air (as an adult) came
during a glider ride. Round and round.... the sun beating down on me. Bleh....

If you were a real man, you'd be going deaf like the rest of us.

--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

http://www.mortimerschnerd.com

BUFDRVR

May 18th 04, 11:01 AM

John S. Shinal wrote:

>Yer not thinking big enough ! Three B-52 waterbombers in a
>cell formation, you could inundate a huge swath of area with a
>watercarpet.

3 BUFFs filled with water is probably only half the amount a single 747 can
carry...although I'm just guessing here, I have no idea how many tonnes of
water we could fit in our bomb bay.

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

BUFDRVR

May 18th 04, 11:03 AM

Vaughn wrote:

>> Sure, rub it in. Last sortie: 17 JUN 03, but hoping to return to flying by
>17
>> JUN 05....
>
> Yes, but my usual mount has 8 fewer engines than your BUF. I have one
>of
>the most wonderful, yet most humble, gigs in commercial aviation. I am a
>commercial sailplane rides pilot & CFI. http://www.barryaviation.com/

Flying is flying. I'd strap my self to a kite right now if I could find a kit
big enough to get me airborne.

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Tom Swift

May 18th 04, 04:30 PM

"Garamondextended" > wrote in message
> Any fliers on this NG? Any at all?

Started in a Thomas-Morse-Boeing MB-3 Scout, then
Curtiss JN-4
Curtiss Tanager
Piper Cub
Aeronca
Waco
Howard
N3N
SNJ
Lysander
AT-7, 9,10,11
B-24
B-25
A-26
B-17
B-47
C-45
Beech 18
C-46
C-47
C-54
C-97
T-29
Sabreliner
KingAir
Staggerwing Beech

Mike Marron

May 18th 04, 05:37 PM

(BUFDRVR) wrote:

>Flying is flying. I'd strap my self to a kite right now if I could find a kit
>big enough to get me airborne.

A kite is more akin to "flying" than is flogging a BUFF at FL 250. ;)

Brian Colwell

May 18th 04, 05:37 PM

"Krztalizer" > wrote in message
...
> >
> >Was flying a C-54E up until the forest service tanker massacre last week.
> >
> >Hopefully it will be fixed and I will have a airtanker pilot career of
more
> >than 3 weeks duration.
> >
>
> Ron, I was thinking about you when I heard the decision to ax all the old
> firebombers in the fleet. Any word yet on how soon they will replace
them, or
> how they will provide qualified pilots for the "new" firebombers? That
747
> firebomber is freakin' amazing.
>
> Good luck in the future.
> v/r
> Gordon

Up here in BC, we are still using a couple of Mars flying boats !!!! for
fire fighting, they still look pretty impressive. They often send them South
of the 49th to help out .

BMC

Garamondextended

May 18th 04, 05:46 PM

>Subject: Re: Any fliers?
>From: "Tom Swift"
>Date: 5/18/04 8:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Garamondextended" > wrote in message
>> Any fliers on this NG? Any at all?
>
>Started in a Thomas-Morse-Boeing MB-3 Scout, then
>Curtiss JN-4
>Curtiss Tanager
>Piper Cub
>Aeronca
>Waco
>Howard
>N3N
>SNJ
>Lysander
>AT-7, 9,10,11
>B-24
>B-25
>A-26
>B-17
>B-47
>C-45
>Beech 18
>C-46
>C-47
>C-54
>C-97
>T-29
>Sabreliner
>KingAir
>Staggerwing Beech
>
>

YOU WIN. !!!!!!

Ed Rasimus

May 18th 04, 06:17 PM

On Tue, 18 May 2004 16:37:21 GMT, Mike Marron >
wrote:

(BUFDRVR) wrote:
>
>>Flying is flying. I'd strap my self to a kite right now if I could find a kit
>>big enough to get me airborne.
>
>A kite is more akin to "flying" than is flogging a BUFF at FL 250. ;)
>
>
Interesting that a WW I slang term for the string-bags of the period
was "kite".

But, lest we drift to far from the name of the group, let me note that
flying military airplanes is simply a means to another end. Sure,
there are a lot of military airplanes that move stuff around the world
ala airlines, but the real purpose of the airplanes is as tools to
perform more violent functions.

Flying the airplane is a challenge, but once mastered, it becomes
secondary to employing the tool well. The whole dance of combat air
ops, the challenge of pitting your team against the opposition,
whether in a 1-v-1 basic fighter maneuver sortie, or for quarters on
the air-to-ground range, or in a technological tour-de-force battle
against the arrayed forces of Red Flag, or in a no-****,
this-is-for-real shooting war, that's the real deal.

Flying with the boids is great, but doing the job in the BUFF at FL
250, 12,000 miles from home plate, against a bunch of folks who really
don't like you all that much....there's the rub.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Mike Marron

May 18th 04, 07:31 PM

>Ed Rasimus > wrote:
>>Mike Marron > wrote:
(BUFDRVR) wrote:

>>>Flying is flying. I'd strap my self to a kite right now if I could find a kit
>>>big enough to get me airborne.

>>A kite is more akin to "flying" than is flogging a BUFF at FL 250. ;)

>Interesting that a WW I slang term for the string-bags of the period
>was "kite".

IIRC, the Luftwaffe also referred to their Me-262's as "kites."

>But, lest we drift to far from the name of the group, let me note that
>flying military airplanes is simply a means to another end. Sure,
>there are a lot of military airplanes that move stuff around the world
>ala airlines, but the real purpose of the airplanes is as tools to
>perform more violent functions.

No argument here.

>Flying the airplane is a challenge, but once mastered, it becomes
>secondary to employing the tool well.

Understood, but the challenge of "kites" is that no matter how good
one is, one never quite masters them per se. They're so lightweight
and some (like mine) have such a high power-to-weight ratio and
are so susceptible to the unpredictable whims of mother nature that
they simply defy being "mastered" in the sense one "masters" any
other A/C type. . As you may recall, Bob Wall (former F-100 jock) and
Dave Witchey (former F-15 jock) both perished in "kites" not too long
ago and neither came anywhere near mastering their respective
lightweight machines.

>The whole dance of combat air ops, the challenge of pitting your team
>against the opposition, whether in a 1-v-1 basic fighter maneuver sortie,
>or for quarters on the air-to-ground range, or in a technological tour-de-force
>battle against the arrayed forces of Red Flag, or in a no-****, this-is-for-real
>shooting war, that's the real deal.

Let's not forget that due to modern technology, some "kites" are being
considered more and more these days for use in combat (in unique,
specialized ops ala Bond-style as in "The World is Not Enough").

>Flying with the boids is great, but doing the job in the BUFF at FL
>250, 12,000 miles from home plate, against a bunch of folks who really
>don't like you all that much....there's the rub.

See above. Don't get me wrong, I respect BUFDRVR and all military
personnel (well, almost "all") for serving our country but when it
comes to aviation, I'd rather hang out with the "boids" (though I
haven't seen any boids while flying my "kite" at night) than hang out
for hours and hours on end (and that's if you're lucky...as BUFDRVR
admits that he hasn't flown in a coon's age) in the rarefied air up at
FL 250 in a BUFF.

Krztalizer

May 18th 04, 08:04 PM

>
>
>Flying is flying. I'd strap my self to a kite right now if I could find a kit
>big enough to get me airborne.
>

I live under the approach to both Balboa Naval Hospital and some other huge
hospital complex here in San Diego - I get tortured by dozens of "Ghetto
Birds", Medivacs, and every other sort of military and civilian helicopter that
pass over, often at or below 500'. The kids hear a heavy wop-wop in the
distance and ask, "Isn't that a Huey?" - as they scramble outside to look. I
just sit here and pout...

Of course, it was only a few years ago that I'd occasionally hear the siren
call of a distant passing H-2 -- I'd beat EVERYONE outside and the kids would
yell; "MOM! I think dad just heard an H-2!!!"

The B-25 ride and periodic offers to ride in a "Tora"-style T-6
notwithstanding, I miss flying so bad it hurts.

v/r
Gordon
S-3, P-3, H-3, H-2, C-2, + an F-4 ride and a few other odds and ends. Learned
to fly on a kite (Champ) and the superb Grumman Lynx.

Krztalizer

May 18th 04, 08:14 PM

>
>>Interesting that a WW I slang term for the string-bags of the period
>>was "kite".
>
>IIRC, the Luftwaffe also referred to their Me-262's as "kites."

Official term on secret documents was Akorn, Me-609 (on a few rare transport
documents), or "Silber". Secret flying projects such as the 8-262, 8-163, and
8-335 all had precious metals nicknames. The pilots usually called them
"Turbos" - I saw in Galland's book that he called them 'kites' but none of the
pilots I've interviewed called them anything other than a "Me" or "Turbo". He
and Steinhof (the only other pilot I've seen call his 262 a kite) are both
members of the 'old guard' and may have used the term as an endearing pat on
the rump with a nod toward their earlier roots. Lots of pilots in the pre-war
era called their glorified stringbags by the affectionate appellation of
'kite'.

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

An LZ is a place you want to land, not stay.

Krztalizer

May 18th 04, 08:17 PM

<snip Tom Swift's impressive list>

Sooo, would you mind sharing a Lysander story or two with us? :)

I'm betting you are one of VERY few on this newsgroup with experience in that
little gem.

C'mon - we'd all love to hear about it. Seriously!

v/r
Gordon

ArtKramr

May 18th 04, 08:19 PM

>Subject: Re: Any fliers?
>From: (Krztalizer)
>Date: 5/18/04 12:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>
>>>Interesting that a WW I slang term for the string-bags of the period
>>>was "kite".
>>
>>IIRC, the Luftwaffe also referred to their Me-262's as "kites."
>
>Official term on secret documents was Akorn, Me-609 (on a few rare transport
>documents), or "Silber". Secret flying projects such as the 8-262, 8-163,
>and
>8-335 all had precious metals nicknames. The pilots usually called them
>"Turbos" - I saw in Galland's book that he called them 'kites' but none of
>the
>pilots I've interviewed called them anything other than a "Me" or "Turbo".
>He
>and Steinhof (the only other pilot I've seen call his 262 a kite) are both
>members of the 'old guard' and may have used the term as an endearing pat on
>the rump with a nod toward their earlier roots. Lots of pilots in the
>pre-war
>era called their glorified stringbags by the affectionate appellation of
>'kite'.
>
>v/r
>Gordon
><====(A+C====>
> USN SAR
>
>An LZ is a place you want to land, not stay.
>
>
Fying is all fun games and a million laughs until the shooting starts. That's
when you begin to earn your flight pay, your combat pay, your overseas pay and
hopefully your longevity pay. A lot of guys never got any of that last one.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Mike Marron

May 18th 04, 08:29 PM

(Krztalizer) wrote:
>>Mike Marron wrote:

>>IIRC, the Luftwaffe also referred to their Me-262's as "kites."

>Official term on secret documents was Akorn, Me-609 (on a few rare transport
>documents), or "Silber". Secret flying projects such as the 8-262, 8-163, and
>8-335 all had precious metals nicknames. The pilots usually called them
>"Turbos" - I saw in Galland's book that he called them 'kites' but none of the
>pilots I've interviewed called them anything other than a "Me" or "Turbo". He
>and Steinhof (the only other pilot I've seen call his 262 a kite) are both
>members of the 'old guard' and may have used the term as an endearing pat on
>the rump with a nod toward their earlier roots.

Interesting stuff, indeed.

>Lots of pilots in the pre-war era called their glorified stringbags by the
>affectionate appellation of 'kite'.

Nowadays sleek, technomodern flexwing trikes are affectionately called
"kites" not because they resemble the old stringbag bipes of
yesteryear but because they literally share the same delta or batwing
shape of an *actual* kite.

Steve

May 18th 04, 11:16 PM

On 16 May 2004 00:10:28 GMT, (Garamondextended)
wrote:

>Any fliers on this NG? Any at all?

Cessna 152!

Beat that! :-)

--
Steve.

BUFDRVR

May 18th 04, 11:17 PM

Mike Marron wrote:

>>Flying is flying. I'd strap my self to a kite right now if I could find a
>kit
>>big enough to get me airborne.
>
>A kite is more akin to "flying" than is flogging a BUFF at FL 250. ;)
>

Damn, that was good! I'd take it anyway....

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

BUFDRVR

May 18th 04, 11:18 PM

Ed Rasimus wrote:

>Flying with the boids is great, but doing the job in the BUFF at FL
>250, 12,000 miles from home plate, against a bunch of folks who really
>don't like you all that much....there's the rub.

You mean there are actually people who don't like the BUFF?

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

BUFDRVR

May 18th 04, 11:21 PM

ArtKramr wrote:

> Fying is all fun games and a million laughs until the shooting starts.

I've experienced several "light" moments over "Injun country" and while I might
not have laughed at the time, I certainly did so once we landed.

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

BUFDRVR

May 18th 04, 11:23 PM

Gordon wrote:

>I miss flying so bad it hurts.

Two...

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Peter Stickney

May 18th 04, 11:31 PM

In article >,
(Krztalizer) writes:
>>
>>>Interesting that a WW I slang term for the string-bags of the period
>>>was "kite".
>>
>>IIRC, the Luftwaffe also referred to their Me-262's as "kites."
>
> Official term on secret documents was Akorn, Me-609 (on a few rare transport
> documents), or "Silber". Secret flying projects such as the 8-262, 8-163, and
> 8-335 all had precious metals nicknames. The pilots usually called them
> "Turbos" - I saw in Galland's book that he called them 'kites' but none of the
> pilots I've interviewed called them anything other than a "Me" or "Turbo". He
> and Steinhof (the only other pilot I've seen call his 262 a kite) are both
> members of the 'old guard' and may have used the term as an endearing pat on
> the rump with a nod toward their earlier roots. Lots of pilots in the pre-war
> era called their glorified stringbags by the affectionate appellation of
> 'kite'.

My German's not up to the task, but is there any possibility that that
they may be referring to teh airplanes as the predatory Hawks
(Accipitridae), characterized by a long tail and long, pointed wings
(Sounds kinda Me 262-ish), and which hunts but dropping on it prey
(usually other birds) by a fast dive from a superior altitude (Also
very Me 262-isn).
It's a long shot, but I've seen people pull some really odd
translations, and comparing your fighter to a predator with similar
characteristics seems a universal human trait.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

Paul J. Adam

May 18th 04, 11:41 PM

In message >, BUFDRVR
> writes
>Ed Rasimus wrote:
>
>>Flying with the boids is great, but doing the job in the BUFF at FL
>>250, 12,000 miles from home plate, against a bunch of folks who really
>>don't like you all that much....there's the rub.
>
>You mean there are actually people who don't like the BUFF?

I can think of some North Vietnamese, Iraqi and Serbian folk who would
hold that opinion, yes.

It's probably just envy.

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

mainbox{at}jrwlynch(dot)demon[stop]co<period>uk

Ed Rasimus

May 18th 04, 11:50 PM

On 18 May 2004 22:21:55 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

>ArtKramr wrote:
>
>> Fying is all fun games and a million laughs until the shooting starts.
>
>I've experienced several "light" moments over "Injun country" and while I might
>not have laughed at the time, I certainly did so once we landed.

All too true. Here's a little anecdote I wrote up to commemorate my
old room-mate's last flight when he retired as a Captain for American
Airlines last year:

Bill Ricks, Boy Fighter Pilot

Bill Ricks and I went to pilot training together, but we didn't get to
know each other despite being in the same small class of thirty-two
Americans and eighteen Germans. Bill was in the 3526 Pilot Training
Squadron and I was in the 3525th. He flew in Smoke Pot and Boysan
flights while I flew in Mule Train and Hacker. We were on the same
base for 53 weeks without encountering each other more than on
graduation day. He was married, I was single. He lived in town and I
lived on base. He was a responsible Mormon, I was a hell-raising,
hard-drinking wannabe fighter pilot. When we graduated, however, we
both wanted to fly F-105s and we were both good enough that we got to
do that.

When we got to 105 training, the class was only nine students, but
Bill didn't drink and I did so each day when training was over, we
went our separate ways. We knew a little bit more about each other. I
knew he was tall and thin, he knew I was short (relatively) and
chubby.

We only got to know each other when we got to Korat Thailand when a
real-life odd couple was formed. Bill and I became room-mates during
the most intense six months of our young lives. We weren't supposed to
be scared and we never said we were, but we both knew that there were
lots of folks trying to kill us and they weren't all on the North
Vietnamese side of the guns. We had a flight commander who hated
lieutenants and a squadron commander, Barney Barnett, who hated
everybody.

Barnett was a huge man, probably six feet three inches tall and
weighing close to three hundred pounds. He had the largest head ever
seen on a human being and when he suited up to go flying his parachute
looked like a kindergartener's daypack and his G-suit was stretched to
the breaking point. The criss-crossed lashings of the thigh and calf
sections left his legs looking like huge salami links supporting his
massive body. He had the personality of a watermelon and was never
heard to say anything to a lieutenant except in a shout. We were
scared ****less of him.

I managed to avoid him during the first month I was at Korat and
eventually he completed his 100 missions and left. Bill, however was
not so fortunate. Lieutenant Ricks got scheduled to fly the squadron
commander's wing on a huge strike against the heavily defended
military storage area at Yen Bai on the Red River in North Vietnam.
One hundred planes would hit the town, each flight with a section of
the area to drop their bombs. Timing was critical, coordination needed
to be precise. The mission was a tough one in a high threat situation
and it was going to be a pressure cooker.

Lt. Col. Barnett briefed the mission in minimalist, single syllable
words and growled at Bill that he'd better be in position and clear
his leader's six and drop his bombs on target and do a decent job, but
there was no doubt in Barnett's mind that a sniveling, skinny, green
lieutenant like Ricks had no business there and would screw up.

Bill vowed to do a perfect job. He hurried out to preflight his
airplane. He started on time. He taxied with perfect spacing and made
all his radio calls crisp, clear and snappy. He rolled with perfect
spacing and rejoined in less than ninety degrees of turn. He was
perfectly in position all the way to the tanker. As Barnett took his
gas, Bill held in place on the tanker's wing. Then moved into
pre-contact position precisely as Barnett moved off the boom to the
left wing.

It was just the sort of job Bill needed to do to impress the boss.
Then as Barnett watched, Bill smoothly reached down by his left knee
and pulled the bright yellow handle that released the gear doors and
unlatched the landing gear, dropping his wheels at nearly one hundred
knots above recommended gear lowering speed and promptly slowing his
aircraft to disappear behind and below the tanker. The emergency gear
handle was just outside of his left knee and the refueling door handle
was just inside his left knee. It was a mistake that only a lieutenant
could make and Bill made it perfectly.

Barnett yelled for his lieutenant to clean up his airplane and go
home. And, that's when Bill Ricks began to drink.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus

May 18th 04, 11:51 PM

On 18 May 2004 22:18:56 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

>Ed Rasimus wrote:
>
>>Flying with the boids is great, but doing the job in the BUFF at FL
>>250, 12,000 miles from home plate, against a bunch of folks who really
>>don't like you all that much....there's the rub.
>
>You mean there are actually people who don't like the BUFF?
>

They would be known as the "recipients" AKA, "the target du jour".

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

ArtKramr

May 18th 04, 11:55 PM

>Subject: Re: Any fliers?
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 5/18/04 3:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>
>> Fying is all fun games and a million laughs until the shooting starts.
>
>I've experienced several "light" moments over "Injun country" and while I
>might
>not have laughed at the time, I certainly did so once we landed.
>
>
>BUFDRVR
>
>"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
>harelips
>everyone on Bear Creek"

I always wanted to fly when I was a kid. But once I got into military flying I
must admit that I never loked at the sky and said, "What a great day for
flying. Wish I was up there" Never once. And I must also admit that when we had
a hairy mission scheduled over the deadly Ruhr Valley, which got scrubbed due
to weather over the target, I never shed a tear. Not one. And when I came home
from a mission without a scratch it was great. But tomorrow was another
mission. And tomorrow always came too soon.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr

May 19th 04, 12:01 AM

>Subject: Re: Any fliers?
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 5/18/04 3:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time

>Fying is all fun games and a million laughs until the shooting starts.
>
>I've experienced several "light" moments over "Injun country" and while I
>might
>not have laughed at the time, I certainly did so once we landed.
>
>
>BUFDRVR

That takes care of today. But there is another mission tomorrow, and another
and another and another...forever. We all felt that the war had gone on
forever, We couldn't remember a time when there was no war, And it would go on
forever, never to end.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Mike Marron

May 19th 04, 12:51 AM

> (BUFDRVR) wrote:
>>Mike Marron wrote:

>>A kite is more akin to "flying" than is flogging a BUFF at FL 250. ;)

>Damn, that was good! I'd take it anyway....

For a mere $40K a premium kite like mine can be yours....

vincent p. norris

May 19th 04, 02:15 AM

> Let's overlook the last (unmentioned) criterion.

You wouldn't be referring to, uh, er, _____, would you?

vince norris

Pete

May 19th 04, 02:26 AM

"Mike Marron" > wrote
>
> IIRC, the Luftwaffe also referred to their Me-262's as "kites."

And we seemingly menial modern groundcrew refer to the jet du jour
(-16, -15, -117, BUFF, whatever) as 'kites'.

As in, "Let's get these kites in the air"

Pete

Bob McKellar

May 19th 04, 02:54 AM

Steve wrote:

> On 16 May 2004 00:10:28 GMT, (Garamondextended)
> wrote:
>
> >Any fliers on this NG? Any at all?
>
> Cessna 152!
>
> Beat that! :-)
>
> --
> Steve.

1956 model Cessna 172 - with my name on the registration.......

I realized one day that the fuel load in the biz jet ahead of me on the taxi
way was worth more than my airplane. But it was MY airplane, not my
uncle's.

Even Ed and BUFDRVR couldn't say that, in a fiscal sense!

Bob McKellar, who, at the time, mired in the folly of youth, actually
thought he was pretty much hot ****.

Krztalizer

May 19th 04, 05:43 AM

>
>My German's not up to the task, but is there any possibility that that
>they may be referring to teh airplanes as the predatory Hawks
>(Accipitridae), characterized by a long tail and long, pointed wings
>(Sounds kinda Me 262-ish),

Perhaps - but to them, the "Government sponsored name" of Schwalbe/Swallow (as
in the case of the "Fighting Falcon") was roundly ignored by the pilots, who
nearly always stuck with "Turbo" - its what set them apart from their fellows,
saddled with props.

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

An LZ is a place you want to land, not stay.

John Keeney

May 19th 04, 06:48 AM

"Tom Swift" > wrote in message
...
>
> Started in a Thomas-Morse-Boeing MB-3 Scout, then
> Curtiss JN-4
> Curtiss Tanager
> Piper Cub
> Aeronca
> Waco
> Howard
> N3N
> SNJ
> Lysander
> AT-7, 9,10,11
> B-24
> B-25
> A-26
> B-17
> B-47
> C-45
> Beech 18
> C-46
> C-47
> C-54
> C-97
> T-29
> Sabreliner
> KingAir
> Staggerwing Beech

Uh, Tom, just how old are you?

Cub Driver

May 19th 04, 09:52 AM

On Tue, 18 May 2004 15:30:11 GMT, "Tom Swift" >
wrote:

>Started in a Thomas-Morse-Boeing MB-3 Scout,

Now, THAT'S impressive!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

Cub Driver

May 19th 04, 09:55 AM

> I saw in Galland's book that he called them 'kites' but none of the
>> pilots I've interviewed called them anything other than a "Me" or "Turbo".

Probably a British translator....

I wonder what term he used in German? If the translator was doing his
job, it had to be some sort of slang.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

George Z. Bush

May 19th 04, 12:23 PM

> "Tom Swift" > wrote in message
> ...

>
> Started in a Thomas-Morse-Boeing MB-3 Scout, then
> Curtiss JN-4
> Curtiss Tanager
> Piper Cub
> Aeronca
> Waco
> Howard
> N3N
> SNJ
> Lysander
> AT-7, 9,10,11
> B-24
> B-25
> A-26
> B-17
> B-47
> C-45
> Beech 18
> C-46
> C-47
> C-54
> C-97
> T-29
> Sabreliner
> KingAir
> Staggerwing Beech

You got me outnumbered! BTW, what's a Howard? Anything to do with Bevo Howard?

George Z.

Dave Kearton

May 19th 04, 12:33 PM

"George Z. Bush" > wrote in message
...
|
| > "Tom Swift" > wrote in message
| > ...
|
| >
| > Started in a Thomas-Morse-Boeing MB-3 Scout, then
| > Curtiss JN-4
| > Curtiss Tanager
| > Piper Cub
| > Aeronca
| > Waco
| > Howard
| > N3N
| > SNJ
| > Lysander
| > AT-7, 9,10,11
| > B-24
| > B-25
| > A-26
| > B-17
| > B-47
| > C-45
| > Beech 18
| > C-46
| > C-47
| > C-54
| > C-97
| > T-29
| > Sabreliner
| > KingAir
| > Staggerwing Beech
|
| You got me outnumbered! BTW, what's a Howard? Anything to do with Bevo
Howard?
|
| George Z.
|
|

Even half of that is an impressive resume. The Lysander still
intrigues me.

Cheers

Dave Kearton

Tom Swift

May 19th 04, 04:23 PM

"Dave Kearton" <ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
> | You got me outnumbered! BTW, what's a Howard? Anything to do with Bevo
> Howard?
> |
> | George Z.
> |
> |
>
>
> Even half of that is an impressive resume. The Lysander still
> intrigues me.
>
The Howard DGA (Damn Good Airplane) 18 K was a Trainer- Low weing for the
Civilan Pilot Training (CPT), program.

Flew Lysanders out of UK, all night missions

Krztalizer

May 19th 04, 06:20 PM

>
>Even half of that is an impressive resume. The Lysander still
>intrigues me.
>

See, see? Everyone loves the Lysander. Please share a yarn or two, Tom - I
think the only Lysander story I even know is about Julia Child flying around in
one during her time as an OSS operative.

v/r
Gordon

Brian Colwell

May 19th 04, 06:40 PM

"Tom Swift" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dave Kearton" <ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
> > | You got me outnumbered! BTW, what's a Howard? Anything to do with
Bevo
> > Howard?
> > |
> > | George Z.
> > |
> > |
> >
> >
> > Even half of that is an impressive resume. The Lysander still
> > intrigues me.
> >
> The Howard DGA (Damn Good Airplane) 18 K was a Trainer- Low weing for the
> Civilan Pilot Training (CPT), program.
>
> Flew Lysanders out of UK, all night missions
>
As a cadet in the ATC I got a flight in a Lysander out of Hendon, way back
longer than I care to remember :-))

BMC

BUFDRVR

May 19th 04, 09:46 PM

Paul J. Adam wrote:

>>You mean there are actually people who don't like the BUFF?
>
>I can think of some North Vietnamese, Iraqi and Serbian folk who would
>hold that opinion, yes.

They just know us that well....or maybe they know us better than anyone ;)

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

BUFDRVR

May 19th 04, 10:07 PM

Ed Rasimus wrote:

>Barnett yelled for his lieutenant to clean up his airplane and go
>home. And, that's when Bill Ricks began to drink.
>

Thanks Ed, that gave me a good laugh. Now for a "Buffoonary" type combat tale.

It was the second night of penetration sorties into Yugoslavia with three
2-ships of BUFFs doing airborne alert inderdiction missions in Kosovo. Out of
the 30 aircrew airborne, only the 2nd formations lead A/C had any "real" combat
time having logged a few DESERT STORM sorties. I had recently gotten a new EW
as I "upgraded" from a very junior EW to my squadrons most experienced
instructor EW. My "old" EW was now flying on the lead jet of the 2nd formation
with our DS vet. There was a large fielded area that apparently had some
activity in it and the Airborne Forward Air Controller ordered all 6 BUFFs to
hit it. After some confusion on who would go first, our DS vet and his
formation pressed to the target. His #2 jet had a very inexperienced crew with
a fairly new co-pilot and a brand new A/C. About one minute from release an
SA-6 was fired at the formation. Knowing it was an optical shot and knowing it
would not be a threat to the formation, our steely eyed DS vet made no
maneuvers and no calls to the formation. He, however, advised his crew that an
SA-6 had been launched but would be no factor. His diligent EW (my former EW)
decided it would be wise to tap out a few bundles of chaff...just in case. What
came out of the jet was not chaff, the EW hit the fast train flare button and
put out 193 flares, turning night into day, highlighting the formation and
blinding the two pilots in the #2 jet who were also on NVGs. I was about 30
miles away and saw the sun come up at approximately 0200 local time. When all 6
jets got back on the ground *nearly* everyone had a hell of a laugh, the only
two who didn't were the two pilots in the #2 jet who swore they were still
seeing "stars".

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Steve

May 19th 04, 10:29 PM

On Tue, 18 May 2004 21:54:21 -0400, Bob McKellar > wrote:

>> >Any fliers on this NG? Any at all?
>>
>> Cessna 152!
>>
>> Beat that! :-)
>>
>> --
>> Steve.
>
>1956 model Cessna 172 - with my name on the registration.......

Oh, can't top that. I don't own anything that flies (apart from my hair).

>I realized one day that the fuel load in the biz jet ahead of me on the taxi
>way was worth more than my airplane.

LOL. And the fact that the centerline markings on the runway are wider than
the plane makes me feel fairly insignificant.

>But it was MY airplane, not my uncle's.
>Even Ed and BUFDRVR couldn't say that, in a fiscal sense!

True, true, but I know what I'd rather be strapped into. :-)

--
Steve.

Mike Marron

May 19th 04, 11:36 PM

>Steve > wrote:
>>Bob McKellar > wrote:

>>1956 model Cessna 172 - with my name on the registration.......

>Oh, can't top that. I don't own anything that flies (apart from my hair).

Be grateful you still have hair. As the old adage goes...if it flies,
floats, or ****s it's cheaper to rent!

>>I realized one day that the fuel load in the biz jet ahead of me on the taxi
>>way was worth more than my airplane.

>LOL. And the fact that the centerline markings on the runway are wider than
>the plane makes me feel fairly insignificant.

But the rich fat cats gotta feel insignicant when I taxi into a busy
airport and attract larger crowds around my humble kite than they do
with their multi-million dollar biz jets.

>>But it was MY airplane, not my uncle's.
>>Even Ed and BUFDRVR couldn't say that, in a fiscal sense!

>True, true, but I know what I'd rather be strapped into. :-)

Same here. Both the doggy ol' '56 Cessna spamcan and the BUFF would
bore me to tears therefore the Thunderchief wins hands down.

Guy Alcala

May 20th 04, 01:20 AM

BUFDRVR wrote:

> Ed Rasimus wrote:
>
> >Barnett yelled for his lieutenant to clean up his airplane and go
> >home. And, that's when Bill Ricks began to drink.
> >
>
> Thanks Ed, that gave me a good laugh. Now for a "Buffoonary" type combat tale.

<snip>

And just to show that even Israeli uberpilots can have finger trouble, the
following is from Shlomo Aloni's Osprey book "Israeli Mirage and Nesher aces", with
IAF ace Reuven Rozen recounting a mission he flew on 21 May 1969 with his 119
Squadron CO, Ran Ronen. Ronen was, by general consensus, the finest IAF Squadron
CO in the Six Day War as well as the IAF's second ace, and almost was chosen as IAF
CinC (rather than David Ivri):

"We had difficulty jettisoning our external tanks, for you had to be flying at
precisely 350 knots with the nose lifted, and no loading on the wings, otherwise
the seeker heads of the AAMs would fall off with the shock of the tanks coming
away. So he [Ronen] did it just fine and he ordered, 'Full power, ready to
jettison external fuel tanks, jettison external fuel tanks!' Suddenly, I saw his
AAMs launched straight ahead. I was amazed! He said nothing on the radio. Ran
then pushed the _right_ switch and jettisoned the external fuel tanks."

Rozen goes on to describe his kill, his third, and Aloni also says that Ronen got
his sixth with his cannon. At the time the loss of the missiles wasn't that big a
deal, as the IAF only had the R.530 (almost certainly not carried on this mission),
the near useless Shafrir I, 60 or so AIM-9Bs they'd bought from the US along with
the first F-4 batch, and a couple of dozen Atolls which they'd captured (along with
9 launchers) when they took Bir Gafgafa Airfield in Sinai during the '67 war.
Cannons were still the preferred and far more effective weapon, although the
Shafrir II entered service shortly thereafter and got its first kill in July, with
the AIM-9D also entering service the following year.

Guy

vincent p. norris

May 20th 04, 03:13 AM

>>Started in a Thomas-Morse-Boeing MB-3 Scout,
>
>Now, THAT'S impressive!

Dan, I think Swifty is pulling our legs. To say he began with a Scout
and then flew a Jenny is like a WW II type saying he flew P-40s and
then flew an AT-6.

vince norris

Peter Stickney

May 20th 04, 04:01 AM

In article >,
Cub Driver > writes:
>
>>Me. (Just today, in fact)
>
> Congratulations! Oh ... I suppose you mean you went flying today, not
> that you got your ticke todayt. Well, congratulations anyhow. It's
> raining here in New Hampshire, and I'm VFR. But I had a great tour of
> The Big Lake on Wednesday.

I'm not active any more. (Busted my medical so bad this time that I'm
not Happy! High Blood Pressure! It's Not Flying that raises the
blood pressure!)

Dan, it wasn't raining Yesterday (Tuesday) - was that you over, say,
Hampton, Rye Beach about 12:30 PM? White J-3, about 600-700' AGL
(ASL, as well, we were at the Beach)

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

Cub Driver

May 20th 04, 10:15 AM

On Wed, 19 May 2004 23:01:38 -0400, (Peter
Stickney) wrote:

>Dan, it wasn't raining Yesterday (Tuesday) - was that you over, say,
>Hampton, Rye Beach about 12:30 PM? White J-3, about 600-700' AGL
>(ASL, as well, we were at the Beach)

Not me, alas. 06H is Cub yellow with L-4 glazing. If the wind is out
of the south, we line up for the airport about over Boar's Head (I
think). Anybody over the beach that low is probably a low-time student
rubber-necking :)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

Cub Driver

May 20th 04, 10:17 AM

On Wed, 19 May 2004 15:23:10 GMT, "Tom Swift" >
wrote:

>Flew Lysanders out of UK, all night missions

There's a book in that, I suspect.

The Lysander seems to have been the airline of choice for agents going
for vacations in France.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

Tom Swift

May 20th 04, 12:50 PM

"vincent p. norris" < wrote in message
> >>Started in a Thomas-Morse-Boeing MB-3 Scout,
> >
> >Now, THAT'S impressive!
>
> Dan, I think Swifty is pulling our legs. To say he began with a Scout
> and then flew a Jenny is like a WW II type saying he flew P-40s and
> then flew an AT-6.
>
> vince norris

Sorry, not pulling your leg.

I washed planes for gratis instruction at Roosevelt Field, NY. TM Scout
belonged to John Hay Whitney.
1st Solo was in Aeronca, 1940.

A P-40 pilot once returned to the Z.I. could easily be checked out in a T-6
for Flying pay profiency, happened all the time.

BUFDRVR

May 20th 04, 10:05 PM

Mike Marron wrote:

>Both the doggy ol' '56 Cessna spamcan and the BUFF would
>bore me to tears

I'll take you on night/NVG TA sortie through the foothills of the
Sierra-Nevadas, if you're bored, you haven't got a pulse ;)

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

B2431

May 21st 04, 12:24 AM

>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 5/20/2004 4:05 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Mike Marron wrote:
>
>>Both the doggy ol' '56 Cessna spamcan and the BUFF would
>>bore me to tears
>
>I'll take you on night/NVG TA sortie through the foothills of the
>Sierra-Nevadas, if you're bored, you haven't got a pulse ;)
>
>
>BUFDRVR
>

I don't think so, he just isn't impressed with military aircraft under any
circumstances.

Give him an F-15 and he'd complain about that.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Mike Marron

May 21st 04, 12:35 AM

(B2431) wrote:
>>BUFDRVR wrote:
>>>Mike Marron wrote:

>>>Both the doggy ol' '56 Cessna spamcan and the BUFF would
>>>bore me to tears

>>I'll take you on night/NVG TA sortie through the foothills of the
>>Sierra-Nevadas, if you're bored, you haven't got a pulse ;)

Point well taken.

>I don't think so, he just isn't impressed with military aircraft under any
>circumstances.

>Give him an F-15 and he'd complain about that.

Oh give me a break sarge. You're either trolling (again) or you're
more full of **** than the porta potties on the last day of Oshkosh.

>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

vincent p. norris

May 21st 04, 03:39 AM

>Sorry, not pulling your leg.
>
>I washed planes for gratis instruction at Roosevelt Field, NY. TM Scout
>belonged to John Hay Whitney.
>1st Solo was in Aeronca, 1940.

The only TM Scout I know of was a single seater (like the P-40).
>
>A P-40 pilot once returned to the Z.I. could easily be checked out in a T-6
>for Flying pay profiency, happened all the time.

But you listed the Scout first, as though it was the first airplane
you ever flew. Was there a two-seater Scout? It wouldn't have been
called a "Scout," would it, as the term was used during WW I, if it
had two seats.

Enlighten me.

vince norris
>

vincent p. norris

May 21st 04, 03:56 AM

>> Let's overlook the last (unmentioned) criterion.
>
>You wouldn't be referring to, uh, er, _____, would you?
>
>vince norris

Well, since no one else would identify "the last (unmentioned)
criterion" (of the fighter pilot), let me suggest: hemorrhoids.

vince norris

Cub Driver

May 21st 04, 10:25 AM

On Thu, 20 May 2004 11:50:01 GMT, "Tom Swift" >
wrote:

>TM Scout
>belonged to John Hay Whitney.

That's mighty impressive, too.

For the young sprats, "Jock" Whitney was later ambassador to Britain
and publisher of the New York Herald-Tribune and of course my favorite
newspaper, the NY Herald-Trib in Paris.

(Now I realize that the sprats never heard of the Herald-Trib, either.
Okay, the Paris newspaper was where Art Buchwald got his start.)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

Steve

May 21st 04, 09:49 PM

On Wed, 19 May 2004 22:36:25 GMT, Mike Marron > wrote:

>Be grateful you still have hair.

Ahhh, the joys of being 30. Sorry to rub it in. :-)

>As the old adage goes...if it flies,
>floats, or ****s it's cheaper to rent!

Well, I can't vouch for the boats...

>>True, true, but I know what I'd rather be strapped into. :-)
>
>Same here. Both the doggy ol' '56 Cessna spamcan and the BUFF would
>bore me to tears therefore the Thunderchief wins hands down.

Mmm, agreed. Can't imagine who would want to fly a BUFF. ;-) I'd have been
no good in a 105...I look stupid with a mustache!

--
Steve.

Ed Rasimus

May 21st 04, 11:35 PM

On Fri, 21 May 2004 21:49:36 +0100, Steve >
wrote:

>On Wed, 19 May 2004 22:36:25 GMT, Mike Marron > wrote:

>>Same here. Both the doggy ol' '56 Cessna spamcan and the BUFF would
>>bore me to tears therefore the Thunderchief wins hands down.
>
>Mmm, agreed. Can't imagine who would want to fly a BUFF. ;-) I'd have been
>no good in a 105...I look stupid with a mustache!

That didn't stop most of us.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Krztalizer

May 22nd 04, 12:24 AM

>Mmm, agreed. Can't imagine who would want to fly a BUFF. ;-)

Probably would still be fun, except having to handle a committee of throttles
all the dang time!

> I'd have been
>>no good in a 105...I look stupid with a mustache!
>
>That didn't stop most of us.

LOL

Ed, still got your rolled brim Rat hat? We have a great display from one of
your mates at our local museum - Under our raised-platform, bombed up Scooter,
we have a set of display cases built into the platform, each filled with WWVN
air memorabilia. There is a gunner case, then right beside it, a Thud driver
case. You'd love it.

dammit... someday, this "thar I wuz" mustache has got to go - but my daughter
loves it for now.

v/r
Gordon

vincent p. norris

May 22nd 04, 04:07 AM

>(Now I realize that the sprats never heard of the Herald-Trib, either.
>Okay, the Paris newspaper was where Art Buchwald got his start.)
>
Dan, why do you think they ever heard of Art Buchwald ?

vince norris

Cub Driver

May 22nd 04, 09:54 AM

On Fri, 21 May 2004 23:07:26 -0400, vincent p. norris >
wrote:

>>(Now I realize that the sprats never heard of the Herald-Trib, either.
>>Okay, the Paris newspaper was where Art Buchwald got his start.)
>>
>Dan, why do you think they ever heard of Art Buchwald ?

Okay, Art Buchwald was the world's funniest writer until Dave Barry
grew up.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

Ed Rasimus

May 22nd 04, 04:58 PM

On 21 May 2004 23:24:28 GMT, (Krztalizer) wrote:

>Ed, still got your rolled brim Rat hat? We have a great display from one of
>your mates at our local museum - Under our raised-platform, bombed up Scooter,
>we have a set of display cases built into the platform, each filled with WWVN
>air memorabilia. There is a gunner case, then right beside it, a Thud driver
>case. You'd love it.

It's a "****-hot hat", not a Rat hat--there were Rats at a lot of
places, both AF and Navy, that didn't were the SH hat. Mostly it was a
thing of F-105 drivers at Korat and Takhli.

It lived in a box in the basement for a lot of years. I pulled it out
and straightened out all the smooshed parts to regain a semblance of
its original shape during the publication cycle of When Thunder
Rolled. It has resided atop my desk lamp for nearly two years now. It
provides a perverse sort of motivational factor when writing stalls as
it occasionally does.

Speaking of memorabilia displays, I was in San Antonio three years ago
for a Rat reunion. I had the opportunity to run out to Randolph AFB
(where I had been stationed in '70-'71) and visited the Augur Inn in
the O'Club where they have a lot of neat stuff and then went to the
435th TFTS squadron operations building. I had been in the 435th at
Holloman doing Fighter Lead-In Training from '81-'85. I was with Steve
Miller who had been doing that job at the same time and then four
years later returned to be squadron commander of the 435th. They are
now doing fighter lead-in as part of SUPT at Randolph.

There in the entrance was a glass display case of squadron memorabilia
including a huge wooden covered photo album and more interestingly,
the squadron Doofer Book from '83-'84.

The Doofer Book was a green ledger book that sat on the ops counter
and was used as a sort of communal diary. Squadron guys could write
anything they wanted in the Doofer Book. Stories, anecdotes, humorous
events, embarrassments, criticism, commentary, etc were all fair game.

We spent about an hour paging through the book and rereading the
events of those thrilling days of yesteryear. Lots of laughs.

Sure would be fun to see what in that F-105 case in your local museum.
Got a short menu?
>
>dammit... someday, this "thar I wuz" mustache has got to go - but my daughter
>loves it for now.

Moustaches are forever.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Steve

May 22nd 04, 06:51 PM

On 20 May 2004 21:05:09 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

>Mike Marron wrote:
>
>>Both the doggy ol' '56 Cessna spamcan and the BUFF would
>>bore me to tears
>
>I'll take you on night/NVG TA sortie through the foothills of the
>Sierra-Nevadas, if you're bored, you haven't got a pulse ;)

Can I go instead!?

OK thanks, thats great! Where and what time?

:-)

--
Steve.

vincent p. norris

May 23rd 04, 02:58 AM

>Okay, Art Buchwald was the world's funniest writer until Dave Barry
>grew up.

Oh, I know who Art was, and is; we are fellow former jarheads. But I
wonder if the "sprouts" have any idea who he is.

vince norris

Howard Berkowitz

May 23rd 04, 07:37 AM

In article >,
wrote:

> >Okay, Art Buchwald was the world's funniest writer until Dave Barry
> >grew up.
>
> Oh, I know who Art was, and is; we are fellow former jarheads. But I
> wonder if the "sprouts" have any idea who he is.
>

He's still publishing. Depends if they can read.

BUFDRVR

May 23rd 04, 07:46 PM

Gordon wrote:

>>Mmm, agreed. Can't imagine who would want to fly a BUFF. ;-)
>
>Probably would still be fun, except having to handle a committee of throttles
>all the dang time!

No problem if you hands are big enough....and what's that they say about guys
with big hands?

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

BUFDRVR

May 23rd 04, 07:52 PM

Steve (from the UK?) wrote:

>Can I go instead!?
>
>OK thanks, thats great! Where and what time?

Damn, you're asking for a Global Power! RAF Fairford to western Montana and
back. I'm guessing thats in the 20+ hour ball park (unless we can get great
circle routing across the Atlantic into Northern Canada). Are you up for almost
an entire day airborne?

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Peter Kemp

May 23rd 04, 08:09 PM

On 23 May 2004 18:46:41 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

>Gordon wrote:
>
>>>Mmm, agreed. Can't imagine who would want to fly a BUFF. ;-)
>>
>>Probably would still be fun, except having to handle a committee of throttles
>>all the dang time!
>
>No problem if you hands are big enough....and what's that they say about guys
>with big hands?

Big hand....big gloves?

Peter Kemp

Jim Baker

May 24th 04, 02:18 AM

"Peter Kemp" > wrote in message
...
> On 23 May 2004 18:46:41 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:
>
> >Gordon wrote:
> >
> >>>Mmm, agreed. Can't imagine who would want to fly a BUFF. ;-)
> >>
> >>Probably would still be fun, except having to handle a committee of
throttles
> >>all the dang time!
> >
> >No problem if you hands are big enough....and what's that they say about
guys
> >with big hands?
>
> Big hand....big gloves?
>
> Peter Kemp

Careful, pretty soon he'll claim to have a big watch. ;-)

JB

John Keeney

May 24th 04, 05:56 AM

"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
...
> Steve (from the UK?) wrote:
>
> >Can I go instead!?
> >
> >OK thanks, thats great! Where and what time?
>
> Damn, you're asking for a Global Power! RAF Fairford to western Montana
and
> back. I'm guessing thats in the 20+ hour ball park (unless we can get
great
> circle routing across the Atlantic into Northern Canada). Are you up for
almost
> an entire day airborne?

Heck with him. Take me for that ride and I'll come to which ever
base is most convent to you. All I ask is notice equivalent to road
miles between the Louisville KY area and that location at an average
of 80mph -I have to allow *some* time for fuel stops and dodging
cops.

Jeff Crowell

May 24th 04, 03:22 PM

Ed Rasimus wrote:
> It's a "****-hot hat", not a Rat hat--there were Rats at a lot of
> places, both AF and Navy, that didn't were the SH hat. Mostly it was a
> thing of F-105 drivers at Korat and Takhli.

Interesting how the language mutates with time... for a while, at least
(for me, early 80s), a "**** hot" was a tailored flight suit. After a
number of guys got badly burned during ejections or other
unscheduled events (the custom zoombags were NOT Nomex) the
Word came down to lose 'em. So guys would get their issue
Nomex tailored instead. Not that **I** ever did, y'understand...

> It has resided atop my desk lamp for nearly two years now. It
> provides a perverse sort of motivational factor when writing stalls as
> it occasionally does.

Whatcha working on now that _Phantom_Flights_ is being printed up?
The writing bug is hard to squash once you let it out.

> The Doofer Book was a green ledger book that sat on the ops counter
> and was used as a sort of communal diary. Squadron guys could write
> anything they wanted in the Doofer Book. Stories, anecdotes, humorous
> events, embarrassments, criticism, commentary, etc were all fair game.

Hit Log, we called ours. Mostly used to record embarassing
events during deployments and dets.

Jeff

Ed Rasimus

May 24th 04, 04:09 PM

On Mon, 24 May 2004 08:22:09 -0600, "Jeff Crowell"
> wrote:

>Ed Rasimus wrote:
>> It's a "****-hot hat", not a Rat hat--there were Rats at a lot of
>> places, both AF and Navy, that didn't wear the SH hat. Mostly it was a
>> thing of F-105 drivers at Korat and Takhli.
>
>Interesting how the language mutates with time... for a while, at least
>(for me, early 80s), a "**** hot" was a tailored flight suit. After a
>number of guys got badly burned during ejections or other
>unscheduled events (the custom zoombags were NOT Nomex) the
>Word came down to lose 'em. So guys would get their issue
>Nomex tailored instead. Not that **I** ever did, y'understand...

I employed the "reverse tailoring" technique. I'd simply expand at the
waist line to fit the available space within the suit.

One of the weirdest abberations of the SEA war was at Udorn where the
squadrons developed "work suits", custom tailored, short-sleeved
jumpsuits with embroidered wings, name, rank and squadron patches.
Flight suits were donned for flying and then work suits were put on
for hanging around the ops building. Didn't make much sense to me. I
think that was the only place that did it.
>
>Whatcha working on now that _Phantom_Flights_ is being printed up?
>The writing bug is hard to squash once you let it out.

I haven't started anything yet. I'll be busy with copyediting and
proofing of Phantom Flights next month.

I've had a couple of ideas, but they have varying degrees of
potential. First, I've had a concept for a novel for a while--not sure
if I can pull off fiction, but it involves an F-4 squadron deployed to
Turkey during the Greek/Turk conflict over Cyprus. Nuke weapons are
stood down, but a "strike enable" plug falls into the hands of a rogue
Turk commander. Eventual showdown in the air as the brave USAF ops
officer tracks down and engages the Turk enroute to deliver the nuke
on either Athens or Tel Aviv. Sex involved too!

Second, wife wants me to do a collection of growing up in Chicago
memoirs, sort of an urban boy version of "Ya-Ya Sisterhood."

And, my personal favorite, is a co-authored bio of Robin Olds. I've
proposed the concept to Robin and live close enough to work the
interviews with him. He's been reluctant, but his story needs to be
told. I'll probably visit him in Steamboat this summer and
face-to-face the proposal again.
>

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

R Haskin

May 24th 04, 04:51 PM

Ed -

For what it's worth, the Black Eagles are now at Moody AFB, still drivin'
Smurfs (the new, glass-cockpit, can't-carry-a-SUU-20, kind) and teaching IFF
to new SUPT grads. The doofer book you mention is still in the squadron's
glass case. In fact, I scanned an entry out of it that I thought the group
would love to see someday! I doubt, though, that the members of r.a.m.
could fulfill the Mayor's ROE for reading the book, though!

Fight's On.

Randy Haskin

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...

> Speaking of memorabilia displays, I was in San Antonio three years ago
> for a Rat reunion. I had the opportunity to run out to Randolph AFB
> (where I had been stationed in '70-'71) and visited the Augur Inn in
> the O'Club where they have a lot of neat stuff and then went to the
> 435th TFTS squadron operations building. I had been in the 435th at
> Holloman doing Fighter Lead-In Training from '81-'85. I was with Steve
> Miller who had been doing that job at the same time and then four
> years later returned to be squadron commander of the 435th. They are
> now doing fighter lead-in as part of SUPT at Randolph.
>
> There in the entrance was a glass display case of squadron memorabilia
> including a huge wooden covered photo album and more interestingly,
> the squadron Doofer Book from '83-'84.
>
> The Doofer Book was a green ledger book that sat on the ops counter
> and was used as a sort of communal diary. Squadron guys could write
> anything they wanted in the Doofer Book. Stories, anecdotes, humorous
> events, embarrassments, criticism, commentary, etc were all fair game.
>
> We spent about an hour paging through the book and rereading the
> events of those thrilling days of yesteryear. Lots of laughs.

R Haskin

May 24th 04, 04:56 PM

Raz -

How much beer would it take to move this one to the top of your list?? I had
a chance to dring with Robin Olds last year when he attended the 479th Gp
60th Anniversary Reunion here at Moody. It was a life-changing experience
for this fighter pilot, that's for sure. PLEASE make sure that his story and
his words make it to print before the US loses another real-life hero and
legend.

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...

> And, my personal favorite, is a co-authored bio of Robin Olds. I've
> proposed the concept to Robin and live close enough to work the
> interviews with him. He's been reluctant, but his story needs to be
> told. I'll probably visit him in Steamboat this summer and
> face-to-face the proposal again.

Bob McKellar

May 24th 04, 05:08 PM

R Haskin wrote:

> Raz -
>
> How much beer would it take to move this one to the top of your list?? I had
> a chance to dring with Robin Olds last year when he attended the 479th Gp
> 60th Anniversary Reunion here at Moody. It was a life-changing experience
> for this fighter pilot, that's for sure. PLEASE make sure that his story and
> his words make it to print before the US loses another real-life hero and
> legend.
>
> "Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > And, my personal favorite, is a co-authored bio of Robin Olds. I've
> > proposed the concept to Robin and live close enough to work the
> > interviews with him. He's been reluctant, but his story needs to be
> > told. I'll probably visit him in Steamboat this summer and
> > face-to-face the proposal again.

Concur.

Last time I checked, the world was not suffering from a shortage of military
novels.

Of course, and this is a general statement, not an Ed specific observation:

"Anybody who has written an autobiographical book is already experienced in
composing fiction!"

Bob McKellar

Ed Rasimus

May 24th 04, 05:31 PM

On Mon, 24 May 2004 11:56:15 -0400, "R Haskin"
> wrote:

>Raz -
>
>How much beer would it take to move this one to the top of your list?? I had
>a chance to dring with Robin Olds last year when he attended the 479th Gp
>60th Anniversary Reunion here at Moody. It was a life-changing experience
>for this fighter pilot, that's for sure. PLEASE make sure that his story and
>his words make it to print before the US loses another real-life hero and
>legend.

It wouldn't take anything to get it to the top of my list (or my
publisher's as well!) But, I'm not sure my own liver could stand a
half-dozen or more trips to Steamboat drinking through the interviews.

Robin has loads of great stories and the simple facts of his
incredible life would make a great read. Every time I get to talk to
him, I'm increasingly amazed at the events, and he recalls them all in
incredible detail.

I'd thought that his WW II kills came mostly in Mustangs, but he
started out in the P-38--his story of coming up on the tail of a
FW-190, only to have both engines quit just as he's about to pull the
trigger, then shooting the German down as he's piloting a glider is
incredible.

His front seat view of Bolo as well.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus

May 24th 04, 05:34 PM

On Mon, 24 May 2004 11:51:49 -0400, "R Haskin"
> wrote:

>Ed -
>
>For what it's worth, the Black Eagles are now at Moody AFB, still drivin'
>Smurfs (the new, glass-cockpit, can't-carry-a-SUU-20, kind) and teaching IFF
>to new SUPT grads. The doofer book you mention is still in the squadron's
>glass case. In fact, I scanned an entry out of it that I thought the group
>would love to see someday! I doubt, though, that the members of r.a.m.
>could fulfill the Mayor's ROE for reading the book, though!
>
>Fight's On.
>
>Randy Haskin

I'd love to see the Talon with the new layout. Video alone, instead of
16mm film in 50 foot cans, would be a great teaching aid.

If you page through the Doofer book (I don't recall if the call-sign
legend page was still intact), I'm "OFP"--which could mean "Old
Fighter Pilot" or "Old Fat Pilot".

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ron

May 24th 04, 05:56 PM

>And, my personal favorite, is a co-authored bio of Robin Olds. I've
>proposed the concept to Robin and live close enough to work the
>interviews with him. He's been reluctant, but his story needs to be
>told. I'll probably visit him in Steamboat this summer and
>face-to-face the proposal again.

That idea would probably even better if you take along an airtanker pilot with
you :)

Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)
Silver City Tanker Base

Jeff Crowell

May 24th 04, 08:17 PM

Jeff Crowell wrote:
> >Whatcha working on now that _Phantom_Flights_ is being printed up?
> >The writing bug is hard to squash once you let it out.

Ed Rasimus wrote:
> I've had a couple of ideas, but they have varying degrees of
> potential. First, I've had a concept for a novel for a while--not sure
> if I can pull off fiction, but it involves an F-4 squadron deployed to
> Turkey during the Greek/Turk conflict over Cyprus. Nuke weapons are
> stood down, but a "strike enable" plug falls into the hands of a rogue
> Turk commander. Eventual showdown in the air as the brave USAF ops
> officer tracks down and engages the Turk enroute to deliver the nuke
> on either Athens or Tel Aviv. Sex involved too!

I must tell you sometime about my plans for the Great American Novel.
Terrorists blowing up Long Beach with an LNG tanker, lots of things
going "boom" in the night in the Middle East, etc.

> Second, wife wants me to do a collection of growing up in Chicago
> memoirs, sort of an urban boy version of "Ya-Ya Sisterhood."

Ya Ya Hubcaps?

> And, my personal favorite, is a co-authored bio of Robin Olds. I've
> proposed the concept to Robin and live close enough to work the
> interviews with him. He's been reluctant, but his story needs to be
> told. I'll probably visit him in Steamboat this summer and
> face-to-face the proposal again.

Whoops, count me as a pre-sale. Where do I send the check?
Seriously, this would be an awesome story.

Jeff

Jeff Crowell

May 24th 04, 08:18 PM

Bob McKellar wrote:
> Last time I checked, the world was not suffering from a shortage of
military
> novels.

No, just a dearth of ***good*** military novels.

Jeff

Jeff Crowell

May 24th 04, 08:22 PM

Ed Rasimus wrote:
> his story of coming up on the tail of a
> FW-190, only to have both engines quit just as he's about to pull the
> trigger, then shooting the German down as he's piloting a glider is
> incredible.

Urk. Little fuel tank selector lever problem, one assumes?

Or perhaps a drop-tanks-dropped-with-corresponding-air-bubble-
in-fuel-lines type thing?

Jeff

ArtKramr

May 24th 04, 08:39 PM

>Subject: Re: Any fliers?
>From: "Jeff Crowell"
>Date: 5/24/04 12:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Bob McKellar wrote:
>> Last time I checked, the world was not suffering from a shortage of
>military
>> novels.
>
>No, just a dearth of ***good*** military novels.
>
>
>Jeff
>
>

There is no such thing as a good military novel.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

R Haskin

May 24th 04, 08:42 PM

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...

> I'd love to see the Talon with the new layout. Video alone, instead of
> 16mm film in 50 foot cans, would be a great teaching aid.

You're welcome any time you make it to southern Georgia or north Florida.
I'm sure that something could be arranged that would make it worth your
while. Unfortunately besides the jets and the bar (and the occasional co-ed
from Valdsota State University), there's not a whole hell of a lot else to
do down here!

I believe that there will be another 479th reunion this October, though.

> If you page through the Doofer book (I don't recall if the call-sign
> legend page was still intact), I'm "OFP"--which could mean "Old
> Fighter Pilot" or "Old Fat Pilot".

This particular entry I'm thinking of is funny because it recalls that
famous list of "stupid pilot" maintenance writeups. I believe that in this
particular writeup an IP notes that you wrote up in the 781s an IFF that
was, as they say, "O-F-F."

Ed Rasimus

May 24th 04, 08:50 PM

On Mon, 24 May 2004 13:22:16 -0600, "Jeff Crowell"
> wrote:

>Ed Rasimus wrote:
>> his story of coming up on the tail of a
>> FW-190, only to have both engines quit just as he's about to pull the
>> trigger, then shooting the German down as he's piloting a glider is
>> incredible.
>
>Urk. Little fuel tank selector lever problem, one assumes?

Shack!

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus

May 24th 04, 08:54 PM

On Mon, 24 May 2004 15:42:26 -0400, "R Haskin"
> wrote:

>
>"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
>
>> I'd love to see the Talon with the new layout. Video alone, instead of
>> 16mm film in 50 foot cans, would be a great teaching aid.
>
>You're welcome any time you make it to southern Georgia or north Florida.
>I'm sure that something could be arranged that would make it worth your
>while. Unfortunately besides the jets and the bar (and the occasional co-ed
>from Valdsota State University), there's not a whole hell of a lot else to
>do down here!
>
>I believe that there will be another 479th reunion this October, though.

Well, if you guys at Moody did as good of a job of recruiting
operational types to be River Rats as they do at See-My-Johnson, you
could get a whole flock of Rats. SJAFB does a mini-reunion and air
show every year that's pretty whiz-bang. They've got almost 30 of the
Mud Hen drivers signed up, and as those folks get reassigned, we begin
to get active duty Rats at a lot of places.
>
>> If you page through the Doofer book (I don't recall if the call-sign
>> legend page was still intact), I'm "OFP"--which could mean "Old
>> Fighter Pilot" or "Old Fat Pilot".
>
>This particular entry I'm thinking of is funny because it recalls that
>famous list of "stupid pilot" maintenance writeups. I believe that in this
>particular writeup an IP notes that you wrote up in the 781s an IFF that
>was, as they say, "O-F-F."

You'll have to show me that one. You can back-channel me a photo of
the page and I'll confess if it's true.

>

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Joe Osman

May 24th 04, 09:28 PM

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 24 May 2004 15:42:26 -0400, "R Haskin"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >> I'd love to see the Talon with the new layout. Video alone, instead of
> >> 16mm film in 50 foot cans, would be a great teaching aid.
> >
> >You're welcome any time you make it to southern Georgia or north Florida.
> >I'm sure that something could be arranged that would make it worth your
> >while. Unfortunately besides the jets and the bar (and the occasional
co-ed
> >from Valdsota State University), there's not a whole hell of a lot else
to
> >do down here!
> >
> >I believe that there will be another 479th reunion this October, though.
>
> Well, if you guys at Moody did as good of a job of recruiting
> operational types to be River Rats as they do at See-My-Johnson, you
> could get a whole flock of Rats. SJAFB does a mini-reunion and air
> show every year that's pretty whiz-bang. They've got almost 30 of the
> Mud Hen drivers signed up, and as those folks get reassigned, we begin
> to get active duty Rats at a lot of places.
> >
> >> If you page through the Doofer book (I don't recall if the call-sign
> >> legend page was still intact), I'm "OFP"--which could mean "Old
> >> Fighter Pilot" or "Old Fat Pilot".
> >
> >This particular entry I'm thinking of is funny because it recalls that
> >famous list of "stupid pilot" maintenance writeups. I believe that in
this
> >particular writeup an IP notes that you wrote up in the 781s an IFF that
> >was, as they say, "O-F-F."
>
> You'll have to show me that one. You can back-channel me a photo of
> the page and I'll confess if it's true.
>
>
> >
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> Smithsonian Institution Press
> ISBN #1-58834-103-8

When I was learning how to fix IFF interrogators in the USMC, they told us
the tale of the pilot whose IFF was inoperative and who, after all the
switch positions that were considered relevant had been checked, asked about
the proper position for the "ON-IFF" switch. He, of course, had placed it in
the "IFF" position.

Joe

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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Steve

May 24th 04, 10:33 PM

On 23 May 2004 18:52:23 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

>Steve (from the UK?) wrote:

Yep.

>>Can I go instead!?
>>
>>OK thanks, thats great! Where and what time?
>
>Damn, you're asking for a Global Power!

I am? Oh well, in for a penny...

>RAF Fairford to western Montana and
>back. I'm guessing thats in the 20+ hour ball park (unless we can get great
>circle routing across the Atlantic into Northern Canada).

Sounds good. I'm only an hour from Fairford.

>Are you up for almost an entire day airborne?

I'd give it a go. Got to be more comfortable than a Cessna pukebox. :-) I'll
bring my camera and notepad and write a 'day in the life of BUFDRVR'
article. :-)

--
Steve.

Steve

May 24th 04, 10:34 PM

On 23 May 2004 18:46:41 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

>Gordon wrote:
>
>>Probably would still be fun, except having to handle a committee of throttles
>>all the dang time!
>
>No problem if you hands are big enough....and what's that they say about guys
>with big hands?

Big control column.

--
Steve.

Steve

May 24th 04, 10:47 PM

MLenoch

May 24th 04, 11:13 PM

> Ed Rasimus wrote:

>> And, my personal favorite, is a co-authored bio of Robin Olds. I've
>> proposed the concept to Robin and live close enough to work the
>> interviews with him. He's been reluctant, but his story needs to be
>> told. I'll probably visit him in Steamboat this summer and
>> face-to-face the proposal again.
>

Maybe a compilation of his bar songs too! Might have music industry spin offs;
OK these days since a few of his are ....er....bawdy!
VL

Alan Minyard

May 25th 04, 05:30 PM

On 24 May 2004 19:39:03 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

>>Subject: Re: Any fliers?
>>From: "Jeff Crowell"
>>Date: 5/24/04 12:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>Bob McKellar wrote:
>>> Last time I checked, the world was not suffering from a shortage of
>>military
>>> novels.
>>
>>No, just a dearth of ***good*** military novels.
>>
>>
>>Jeff
>>
>>
>
>
>There is no such thing as a good military novel.
>
>
>Arthur Kramer
>344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Agreed. There are so many non-fiction military books out there that
I seriously doubt that they could be read in a life time. Even if you throw
out the ones that are terribley subjective.

Al Minyard

ArtKramr

May 25th 04, 05:38 PM

>Subject: Re: Any fliers?
>From: Alan Minyard
>Date: 5/25/04 9:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 24 May 2004 19:39:03 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>>Subject: Re: Any fliers?
>>>From: "Jeff Crowell"
>>>Date: 5/24/04 12:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>>
>>>Bob McKellar wrote:
>>>> Last time I checked, the world was not suffering from a shortage of
>>>military
>>>> novels.
>>>
>>>No, just a dearth of ***good*** military novels.
>>>
>>>
>>>Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>There is no such thing as a good military novel.
>>
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>>344th BG 494th BS
>> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>>Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>
>Agreed. There are so many non-fiction military books out there that
>I seriously doubt that they could be read in a life time. Even if you throw
>out the ones that are terribley subjective.
>
>Al Minyard

I have never yet read a war novel that gives you the real freeling of having
been there. Not one.If the pages don't smell of cordite and hydraulic fluid,
then it ain't real.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Ed Rasimus

May 25th 04, 06:25 PM

On 25 May 2004 16:38:10 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

>I have never yet read a war novel that gives you the real freeling of having
>been there. Not one.If the pages don't smell of cordite and hydraulic fluid,
>then it ain't real.
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

Gotta say that Catch-22 rang a lot of bells with me. And, if you want
cordite and hydraulics, The War Lover, by John Hersey, is a good one.
And, despite his politics (although Art will find himself in Mailer's
corner), The Naked and the Dead is pretty compelling.

There are a lot of good war novels. The problem is there is also an
overwhelming preponderence of drek.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Keith Willshaw

May 25th 04, 06:47 PM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...

>
>
> I have never yet read a war novel that gives you the real freeling of
having
> been there. Not one.If the pages don't smell of cordite and hydraulic
fluid,
> then it ain't real.
>

The Cruel Sea was widely admired by those who served in
the battle of the atlantic, but then the author was one of them.

Keith

ArtKramr

May 25th 04, 07:12 PM

>Subject: Re: Any fliers?
>From: Ed Rasimus
>Date: 5/25/04 10:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 25 May 2004 16:38:10 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>I have never yet read a war novel that gives you the real freeling of having
>>been there. Not one.If the pages don't smell of cordite and hydraulic fluid,
>>then it ain't real.
>>
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>
>Gotta say that Catch-22 rang a lot of bells with me. And, if you want
>cordite and hydraulics, The War Lover, by John Hersey, is a good one.
>And, despite his politics (although Art will find himself in Mailer's
>corner), The Naked and the Dead is pretty compelling.
>
>There are a lot of good war novels. The problem is there is also an
>overwhelming preponderence of drek.
>
>
>Ed Rasimus
>Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
>"When Thunder Rolled"
>Smithsonian Institution Press
>ISBN #1-58834-103-8

I tried to be tactful as is my wont. But I just mentioned cordite and
hydraulic fluid to protect the sensibilities of the squeamish. Actually the
most overwhelming stench when you climb into a war weary WW II bomber is that
of urine and vomit. But I agree re:Catch 22. I "listened" while Joe wrote it.
For further details go to my website and read " The Birth of the Catches.It is
an eyewitness report on how Catch 22 was born.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr

May 25th 04, 07:17 PM

>Subject: Re: Any fliers?
>From: "Keith Willshaw"
>Date: 5/25/04 10:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
>>
>>
>> I have never yet read a war novel that gives you the real freeling of
>having
>> been there. Not one.If the pages don't smell of cordite and hydraulic
>fluid,
>> then it ain't real.
>>
>
>The Cruel Sea was widely admired by those who served in
>the battle of the atlantic, but then the author was one of them.
>
>Keith
>
>
I actually have a medal and ribbon for the Battle of the Atlantic. For me it
wasn't much of a battle. I crossed on the Queen Mary At one point it was
reported that we were being tracked by a submarine and that old queen really
flew. But we made it into the Furth of Forth ok.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Leslie Swartz

May 25th 04, 09:22 PM

O.K. Art, fess up- you were Kilroy, too, weren't you?

Steve Swartz

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Any fliers?
> >From: Ed Rasimus
> >Date: 5/25/04 10:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >On 25 May 2004 16:38:10 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
> >
> >>I have never yet read a war novel that gives you the real freeling of
having
> >>been there. Not one.If the pages don't smell of cordite and hydraulic
fluid,
> >>then it ain't real.
> >>
> >>
> >>Arthur Kramer
> >
> >Gotta say that Catch-22 rang a lot of bells with me. And, if you want
> >cordite and hydraulics, The War Lover, by John Hersey, is a good one.
> >And, despite his politics (although Art will find himself in Mailer's
> >corner), The Naked and the Dead is pretty compelling.
> >
> >There are a lot of good war novels. The problem is there is also an
> >overwhelming preponderence of drek.
> >
> >
> >Ed Rasimus
> >Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> >"When Thunder Rolled"
> >Smithsonian Institution Press
> >ISBN #1-58834-103-8
>
>
> I tried to be tactful as is my wont. But I just mentioned cordite and
> hydraulic fluid to protect the sensibilities of the squeamish. Actually
the
> most overwhelming stench when you climb into a war weary WW II bomber is
that
> of urine and vomit. But I agree re:Catch 22. I "listened" while Joe wrote
it.
> For further details go to my website and read " The Birth of the
Catches.It is
> an eyewitness report on how Catch 22 was born.
>
>
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

ArtKramr

May 25th 04, 11:25 PM

>Subject: Re: Any fliers?
>From: "Leslie Swartz"
>Date: 5/25/04 1:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >

>O.K. Art, fess up- you were Kilroy, too, weren't you?
>
>Steve Swartz

Aaaaargh ! Ya got me.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Steve

May 25th 04, 11:51 PM

On Mon, 24 May 2004 00:56:14 -0400, "John Keeney" >
wrote:

>Heck with him. Take me for that ride and I'll come to which ever
>base is most convent to you.

In the true spirit of aviation, all I can say is...back of the queue! ;-)

I'm sure there's room for both of us though. Hell, I'll wing-walk if
neccessary!

--
Steve.

MLenoch

May 26th 04, 12:52 AM

>If the pages don't smell of cordite and hydraulic fluid,
>then it ain't real.

If I send you my maintenance manual, can you tell me what airplane and theater
it is from?
VL

ArtKramr

May 26th 04, 12:55 AM

>Subject: Re: Any fliers?
>From: (MLenoch)
>Date: 5/25/04 4:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>If the pages don't smell of cordite and hydraulic fluid,
>>then it ain't real.
>
>If I send you my maintenance manual, can you tell me what airplane and
>theater
>it is from?
>VL

Whaaaaaa ?

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Frijoles

May 26th 04, 01:27 AM

Once upon a time when the aircraft community of which I was a member was
transitioning to a new aircraft...

On the armament control panel of the new jet, there was a toggle switch for
fuse selection. Depending on the type of ordnance, the procedure was to
select the appropriate weapon station and then select the appropriate fuse
arming option which was indicated by two tumblers under a little window on
the panel above ones left knee (looks similar to a mechanical odometer in
older cars). Successive movements of the toggle took you through the
options for that particular station and weapon. One fine spring day whilst
at the range with a flight of four dropping Mk76 practice bombs (25 lb blue
death) on the 500' bull, one of my wingmen couldn't seem to get a bomb off
the jet. "...I've tried A... I've tried B... I've tried C...etc" Finally,
I came up and asked, "have you selected a fusing option?" Wingman responds
in churly tones -- "...of course I have..." -- to which this wiley dinosaur
asked, "What does the option window say?"

Wingman responds -- SA and FE. Pregnant silence.................

.........broken by said dinosaur -- "any domestic beer will be fine. Make
sure it's about 2 degrees above frozen and don't forget to invite every
officer and designated wife and/or concubine"

A good time was had by all. Twenty years later, the story is still told at
the bar.

"Joe Osman" > wrote in message
...
> "Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Mon, 24 May 2004 15:42:26 -0400, "R Haskin"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > >> I'd love to see the Talon with the new layout. Video alone, instead
of
> > >> 16mm film in 50 foot cans, would be a great teaching aid.
> > >
> > >You're welcome any time you make it to southern Georgia or north
Florida.
> > >I'm sure that something could be arranged that would make it worth your
> > >while. Unfortunately besides the jets and the bar (and the occasional
> co-ed
> > >from Valdsota State University), there's not a whole hell of a lot else
> to
> > >do down here!
> > >
> > >I believe that there will be another 479th reunion this October,
though.
> >
> > Well, if you guys at Moody did as good of a job of recruiting
> > operational types to be River Rats as they do at See-My-Johnson, you
> > could get a whole flock of Rats. SJAFB does a mini-reunion and air
> > show every year that's pretty whiz-bang. They've got almost 30 of the
> > Mud Hen drivers signed up, and as those folks get reassigned, we begin
> > to get active duty Rats at a lot of places.
> > >
> > >> If you page through the Doofer book (I don't recall if the call-sign
> > >> legend page was still intact), I'm "OFP"--which could mean "Old
> > >> Fighter Pilot" or "Old Fat Pilot".
> > >
> > >This particular entry I'm thinking of is funny because it recalls that
> > >famous list of "stupid pilot" maintenance writeups. I believe that in
> this
> > >particular writeup an IP notes that you wrote up in the 781s an IFF
that
> > >was, as they say, "O-F-F."
> >
> > You'll have to show me that one. You can back-channel me a photo of
> > the page and I'll confess if it's true.
> >
> >
> > >
> >
> > Ed Rasimus
> > Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> > "When Thunder Rolled"
> > Smithsonian Institution Press
> > ISBN #1-58834-103-8
>
> When I was learning how to fix IFF interrogators in the USMC, they told us
> the tale of the pilot whose IFF was inoperative and who, after all the
> switch positions that were considered relevant had been checked, asked
about
> the proper position for the "ON-IFF" switch. He, of course, had placed it
in
> the "IFF" position.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

MLenoch

May 26th 04, 04:28 AM

>>If I send you my maintenance manual, can you tell me what airplane and
>>theater
>>it is from?
>>VL

>Arthur Kramer

wrote:>Whaaaaaa ?

I'm just pullin' your leg, Art. I have some original WW2 manuals, a few of
which I use on my plane. The maintenance manual is truely infused with 120
weight oil, red hydraulic fluid and a bit more of green coolant (this is the
clue), along with lots of greasy thumb prints. I can't tell if the manual was
ever 'over there', but it sure has seen many overhauls conducted in the hanger.
Thx, Art.........
VL

ArtKramr

May 26th 04, 04:38 AM

>Subject: Re: Any fliers?
>From: (MLenoch)
>Date: 5/25/04 8:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>>If I send you my maintenance manual, can you tell me what airplane and
>>>theater
>>>it is from?
>>>VL
>
>>Arthur Kramer
>
>wrote:>Whaaaaaa ?
>
>I'm just pullin' your leg, Art. I have some original WW2 manuals, a few of
>which I use on my plane. The maintenance manual is truely infused with 120
>weight oil, red hydraulic fluid and a bit more of green coolant (this is the
>clue), along with lots of greasy thumb prints. I can't tell if the manual
>was
>ever 'over there', but it sure has seen many overhauls conducted in the
>hanger.
>Thx, Art.........
>VL
>

I got it now. We had some manuals like that bouncing around on ol' Willie the
Wolf.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

BUFDRVR

May 28th 04, 11:54 PM

Jim Baker wrote:

>Careful, pretty soon he'll claim to have a big watch. ;-)
>

Nope, just big gloves ;)

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

BUFDRVR

May 28th 04, 11:58 PM

Steve wrote:

>>Are you up for almost an entire day airborne?
>
>I'd give it a go. Got to be more comfortable than a Cessna pukebox. :-)

I thought that too...until my first Global Power sortie. 28+ hours and when we
landed they poured me out of the jet and my head and back hurt for three days.
I'm here to tell you they're no fun.....novel, but not fun. My comfort limit is
24 hours. Anything longer and I'm in pain.

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Ron

May 29th 04, 12:23 AM

>
>I thought that too...until my first Global Power sortie. 28+ hours and when
>we
>landed they poured me out of the jet and my head and back hurt for three
>days.
>I'm here to tell you they're no fun.....novel, but not fun. My comfort limit
>is
>24 hours. Anything longer and I'm in pain.
>
>
>BUFDRVR
>

I can just imagine what my grandfathers 40+ hour flights in the RB-36 must have
been like..

Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)
Silver City Tanker Base

Gord Beaman

May 29th 04, 03:58 AM

(BUFDRVR) wrote:

>Steve wrote:
>
>>>Are you up for almost an entire day airborne?
>>
>>I'd give it a go. Got to be more comfortable than a Cessna pukebox. :-)
>
>I thought that too...until my first Global Power sortie. 28+ hours and when we
>landed they poured me out of the jet and my head and back hurt for three days.
>I'm here to tell you they're no fun.....novel, but not fun. My comfort limit is
>24 hours. Anything longer and I'm in pain.
>
Not too many of us have had the unique pleasure of spending 28 -
30 hours airbourne at one fell swoop I'd say.

I can attest to the fact that it's quite a unique experience to
spend that (and many many slightly less lengthily sorties) over
the North Atlantic below 500 feet in the dead of winter where you
come home with the top fronts of your thighs sore from smashing
up against the lap belt and your 'leveling devices' so confused
that the tarmac seems to tip crazily under your feet as you
hobble painfully into the hangar after.

All I can say is that we well earned our pensions.
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

Bjørnar Bolsøy

May 29th 04, 09:44 AM

(Ron) wrote in
:

>>I thought that too...until my first Global Power sortie. 28+
>>hours and when we
>>landed they poured me out of the jet and my head and back hurt
>>for three days.
>>I'm here to tell you they're no fun.....novel, but not fun. My
>>comfort limit is
>>24 hours. Anything longer and I'm in pain.

Do you get to stretch your legs much during such a flight?

>>
>>BUFDRVR
>>
>
> I can just imagine what my grandfathers 40+ hour flights in the
> RB-36 must have been like..

I came over this tidbit while reading up on the RB-36:

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/postwwii/rb36.htm

Regards...

Steve

May 29th 04, 11:55 PM

On 28 May 2004 22:58:29 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

>>I'd give it a go. Got to be more comfortable than a Cessna pukebox. :-)
>
>I thought that too...until my first Global Power sortie. 28+ hours and when we
>landed they poured me out of the jet and my head and back hurt for three days.
>I'm here to tell you they're no fun.....novel, but not fun. My comfort limit is
>24 hours. Anything longer and I'm in pain.

Ouch. Mind you don't get DVT! Cockpit must stink after each sortie. :-) So
thats like watching all three LOTR films back to back..three times over!!
Hell, don't think I could look at instumentation for that long.

Oh well, I'll settle for a VIP guided tour of your bird next time your at
Fairford. ;-)

--
Steve.

BUFDRVR

May 31st 04, 02:55 AM

Ron wrote:

>I can just imagine what my grandfathers 40+ hour flights in the RB-36 must
>have
>been like..

Painful. They probably had a little more room, but I'm sure it was just as
noisy, which takes its toll after about a day.

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

BUFDRVR

May 31st 04, 02:58 AM

Bjørnar Bolsøy wrote:

> Do you get to stretch your legs much during such a flight?
>

The only real place to stretch your legs is between decks on the ladder. You
can do it sitting down too if you adjust the rudder pedals full forward, but
stretching your legs with a numb rear end isn't as useful.

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

BUFDRVR

May 31st 04, 03:01 AM

Gord Beaman wrote:

>I can attest to the fact that it's quite a unique experience to
>spend that (and many many slightly less lengthily sorties) over
>the North Atlantic below 500 feet in the dead of winter

Oh the hell with that! At least on cruise legs between refuelings at FL350,
both pilots can kind of "zone out". At or below 500' ASL would require
vigilence by both pilots and I have no idea how the hell you could do that for
anything longer than 5 or 6 hours.

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

BUFDRVR

May 31st 04, 03:06 AM

Steve wrote:

>Ouch. Mind you don't get DVT!

Our seats aren't comfortable enough so the suggestion to move around in your
seat to avoid DVT is forced upon you in the BUFF.....although thanks to Mary
and the guys and gals at Drydan, we were able to get much more comfortable seat
cushions just in time for OEF, so maybe we'll need classes on DVT avoidance?

>Hell, don't think I could look at instumentation for that long.

You don't. Set the altitude hold autopilot, adjust the throttles every now and
again and look out the windows. Not much to see up there, but a sunrise over
the middle of the Pacific seen from FL330 is very neat looking.

>
>Oh well, I'll settle for a VIP guided tour of your bird next time your at
>Fairford. ;-)

Deal...now all I have to do is get back to a flying unit!

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

ArtKramr

May 31st 04, 03:07 AM

>Subject: Re: Any fliers?
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 5/30/04 7:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Gord Beaman wrote:
>
>>I can attest to the fact that it's quite a unique experience to
>>spend that (and many many slightly less lengthily sorties) over
>>the North Atlantic below 500 feet in the dead of winter
>
>Oh the hell with that! At least on cruise legs between refuelings at FL350,
>both pilots can kind of "zone out". At or below 500' ASL would require
>vigilence by both pilots and I have no idea how the hell you could do that
>for
>anything longer than 5 or 6 hours.
>
>
>BUFDRVR
>
>"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
>harelips
>everyone on Bear Creek"

It's not so much the time that makes the minutes seem like hours. It's the flak
that maked the seconds seem like hours. In clear skies, it's all a piece of
cake.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

SteveM8597

May 31st 04, 12:10 PM

>
>The only real place to stretch your legs is between decks on the ladder. You
>can do it sitting down too if you adjust the rudder pedals full forward, but
>stretching your legs with a numb rear end isn't as useful.

12+ hours in a fighter has to be major agony compared to flying in something
you can stand up in. The only advantage we had was that we could sit on our
G-suits on a trans-ocean crossing. A few repetitive manual inflations did
wonders for the tired butt. Constant air refuelings kept the boredoom town but
only a little

BUFDRVR

May 31st 04, 02:03 PM

stevem8597 wrote:

>12+ hours in a fighter has to be major agony compared to flying in something
>you can stand up in.

Absolutely. When I heard the sortie durations for the F-15E guys/gals for OEF I
instantly felt better about my 17+ hour sorties. You would have to pry me out
of the seat with a crow bar after 12 hours in a fighter.

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Mortimer Schnerd, RN

May 31st 04, 07:30 PM

BUFDRVR wrote:
>
> Absolutely. When I heard the sortie durations for the F-15E guys/gals for OEF
> I instantly felt better about my 17+ hour sorties. You would have to pry me
> out of the seat with a crow bar after 12 hours in a fighter.

The properly selected seconds in a PA-32R left me with a lip lock on the seat
that it took the Jaws of Life to defeat.

--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

http://www.mortimerschnerd.com

JHowell297

May 31st 04, 09:29 PM

>..although thanks to Mary
>and the guys and gals at Drydan, we were able to get much more comfortable
>seat

I have trouble understanding what Dryden had to do with B-52 seats--care to
elaborate?

Jan Howell
Once an Edwards Human Factors Engineer

BUFDRVR

June 1st 04, 03:27 AM

jhowell wrote:

>I have trouble understanding what Dryden had to do with B-52 seats--care to
>elaborate?

I was lamenting to Mary about our uncomfortable, 30+ year old seat cushions.
She informed me, that Dryden had purchased some very comfortable seat cushions
that they used on several aircraft, including the B-52B model. I got some of
the specifics from Mary, gave them to the reserves (who I knew could better
afford them) and presto....

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Gord Beaman

June 1st 04, 04:51 AM

(BUFDRVR) wrote:

>Ron wrote:
>
>>I can just imagine what my grandfathers 40+ hour flights in the RB-36 must
>>have
>>been like..
>
>Painful. They probably had a little more room, but I'm sure it was just as
>noisy, which takes its toll after about a day.
>
>
>BUFDRVR

Quite right, noise and vibration are very tiring. That's why the
concept of two complete crews didn't work on the Argus, while the
a/c is quite capable of 30 hour flights and there's lots of crew
rest positions, full sized bunks and lazyboy type easy-chairs,
good galley equipment and toilet facilities the crews get
exhausted after about 18 - 20 hours whether they're on duty or
not. The last few years that they were in use they had cut us
down to mostly 18 hour patrols. Deadly enough believe me.
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

Gord Beaman

June 1st 04, 05:16 AM

(BUFDRVR) wrote:

>Gord Beaman wrote:
>
>>I can attest to the fact that it's quite a unique experience to
>>spend that (and many many slightly less lengthily sorties) over
>>the North Atlantic below 500 feet in the dead of winter
>
>Oh the hell with that! At least on cruise legs between refuelings at FL350,
>both pilots can kind of "zone out". At or below 500' ASL would require
>vigilence by both pilots and I have no idea how the hell you could do that for
>anything longer than 5 or 6 hours.
>
>BUFDRVR
>

Well a normal crew did have 3 pilots but that likely only helped
a little. The a/c did have a very good autopilot with an
'altitude hold' feature plus the engineer, usually a crotchety
old soul who wasn't above pushing the 'master fire warning bell
test switch' when he saw a pilot nodding off. It's one of the
most attention getting sounds in the world.
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

Billy Beck

June 1st 04, 05:56 PM

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote:

>BUFDRVR wrote:
>>
>> Absolutely. When I heard the sortie durations for the F-15E guys/gals for OEF
>> I instantly felt better about my 17+ hour sorties. You would have to pry me
>> out of the seat with a crow bar after 12 hours in a fighter.

>The properly selected seconds in a PA-32R left me with a lip lock on the seat
>that it took the Jaws of Life to defeat.

Try to imagine 64 days, 22 hours, 19 minutes and five seconds in
a Cessna 172.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/1999/Feb-11-Thu-1999/news/10588716.html

They had the advantage (I guess) of the refuelings in which to
stretch a muscle here & there.

Billy

http://www.two--four.net/weblog.php

Steve

June 2nd 04, 07:03 PM

On 31 May 2004 02:06:19 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

>>Hell, don't think I could look at instumentation for that long.
>
>You don't. Set the altitude hold autopilot, adjust the throttles every now and
>again and look out the windows.

Yeah, suppose so. I'm not used to fancy things like autopilots. :-)

>Not much to see up there,

Not bad though compared to the view from most office windows.

>>Oh well, I'll settle for a VIP guided tour of your bird next time your at
>>Fairford. ;-)
>
>Deal...now all I have to do is get back to a flying unit!

Hope you get back up there soon. I haven't flown for a few years and really
miss it.

--
Steve.

SteveM8597

June 2nd 04, 07:27 PM

>On 31 May 2004 02:06:19 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:
>
>>>Hell, don't think I could look at instumentation for that long.
>>
>>You don't. Set the altitude hold autopilot, adjust the throttles every now
>and
>>again and look out the windows.
>
>Yeah, suppose so. I'm not used to fancy things like autopilots. :-)
>
>>Not much to see up there,
>
>Not bad though compared to the view from most office windows.
>
>>>Oh well, I'll settle for a VIP guided tour of your bird next time your at
>>>Fairford. ;-)
>>
>>Deal...now all I have to do is get back to a flying unit!
>
>Hope you get back up there soon. I haven't flown for a few years and really
>miss it.
>
>
>--
>Steve.
>
>
>
>

You guys are weenies. Try flying formation with other fighters and a tanker
for 8 hours in and out of the weather overwater in a half inch thick anti
exposure suit. Backseaters learned formation and refueling really quick on
those trips. There was a way to disengage heading hold on the AP and kinda fly
formation with the rudders and throttles but it still required the the eyeballs
on the other birds and the stiff neck..

BUFDRVR

June 5th 04, 03:09 AM

stevem8597 wrote:

>You guys are weenies. Try flying formation with other fighters and a tanker
>for 8 hours in and out of the weather overwater in a half inch thick anti
>exposure suit.

I guess its all a matter of perspective. 30+ hours airborne is paiful, and us
bombers guys have *plenty* of night,weather air refueling. I'd imagine nearly
continuous A/Rs are a pain in the ass, but taking on 120,000 pounds at night in
the weather over the Pacific is no picnic. If the tanker can run on all its
boost pumps we can take about 6,000 pounds a minute which means 20 minutes of
contact time to take on the required on load. In my opinion, both seem
challenging.

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Ron

June 5th 04, 03:35 AM

>I guess its all a matter of perspective. 30+ hours airborne is paiful, and us
>bombers guys have *plenty* of night,weather air refueling. I'd imagine nearly
>continuous A/Rs are a pain in the ass, but taking on 120,000 pounds at night
>in
>the weather over the Pacific is no picnic. If the tanker can run on all its
>boost pumps we can take about 6,000 pounds a minute which means 20 minutes of
>contact time to take on the required on load. In my opinion, both seem
>challenging.
>

I was looking at my granddads records when he flew the D at Ellsworth, and once
he had 5 refuelings without a disconnect. Seeing as that is at least 20 min
each time, seems like not a bad achievement at all

Did you know who Tony Kern was from an earlier conversation on here?

Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)
Silver City Tanker Base

Jim Baker

June 5th 04, 07:31 AM

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> >I guess its all a matter of perspective. 30+ hours airborne is paiful,
and us
> >bombers guys have *plenty* of night,weather air refueling. I'd imagine
nearly
> >continuous A/Rs are a pain in the ass, but taking on 120,000 pounds at
night
> >in
> >the weather over the Pacific is no picnic. If the tanker can run on all
its
> >boost pumps we can take about 6,000 pounds a minute which means 20
minutes of
> >contact time to take on the required on load. In my opinion, both seem
> >challenging.
> >
>
> I was looking at my granddads records when he flew the D at Ellsworth, and
once
> he had 5 refuelings without a disconnect. Seeing as that is at least 20
min
> each time, seems like not a bad achievement at all
>
> Did you know who Tony Kern was from an earlier conversation on here?
>
>
> Ron
> Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)
> Silver City Tanker Base

Tony Kern and I were instructor pilots in the Bone schoolhouse in 1991.
Last I talked to him, about 6 or so months ago, he was the head of aircraft
ops for the Forest Service. Probly why you know the name eh? :-)

JB

Ron

June 5th 04, 08:35 AM

>Tony Kern and I were instructor pilots in the Bone schoolhouse in 1991.
>Last I talked to him, about 6 or so months ago, he was the head of aircraft
>ops for the Forest Service. Probly why you know the name eh? :-)
>
>JB
>

Yeah, wish I could talk about him or current events in a positive manner
though.

Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)
Silver City Tanker Base

Steve

June 5th 04, 01:26 PM

On 02 Jun 2004 18:27:05 GMT, (SteveM8597) wrote:

>You guys are weenies.

I see. So you know us personally do you?

>Try flying formation with other fighters and a tanker
>for 8 hours in and out of the weather overwater in a half inch thick anti
>exposure suit.

Yeah yeah. Try spending 16 days on the flight deck of a shuttle, constantly
feeling sick.

--
Steve.

BUFDRVR

June 5th 04, 01:26 PM

Ron wrote:

>Did you know who Tony Kern was from an earlier conversation on here?
>

No. Who is he?

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

ArtKramr

June 5th 04, 01:38 PM

>ubject: Re: Any fliers?
>From: Steve
>Date: 6/5/04 5:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 02 Jun 2004 18:27:05 GMT, (SteveM8597) wrote:
>
>>You guys are weenies.
>
>I see. So you know us personally do you?
>
>>Try flying formation with other fighters and a tanker
>>for 8 hours in and out of the weather overwater in a half inch thick anti
>>exposure suit.
>
>Yeah yeah. Try spending 16 days on the flight deck of a shuttle, constantly
>feeling sick.
>
>
>--
>Steve.
>

As long as there is no flak how bad can it be?

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Peter Kemp

June 5th 04, 02:30 PM

On 05 Jun 2004 12:38:51 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

>>ubject: Re: Any fliers?
>>From: Steve
>>Date: 6/5/04 5:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>On 02 Jun 2004 18:27:05 GMT, (SteveM8597) wrote:
>>
>>>You guys are weenies.
>>
>>I see. So you know us personally do you?
>>
>>>Try flying formation with other fighters and a tanker
>>>for 8 hours in and out of the weather overwater in a half inch thick anti
>>>exposure suit.
>>
>>Yeah yeah. Try spending 16 days on the flight deck of a shuttle, constantly
>>feeling sick.

>As long as there is no flak how bad can it be?

16 days of vomitig in zero g? Plus teh associated side effects of
dehydraion, using the toilet while in zero and so on - I'd guess it
could be pretty damn bad!

Peter Kemp

Ed Rasimus

June 5th 04, 04:19 PM

On 05 Jun 2004 02:35:16 GMT, (Ron) wrote:

>I was looking at my granddads records when he flew the D at Ellsworth, and once
>he had 5 refuelings without a disconnect. Seeing as that is at least 20 min
>each time, seems like not a bad achievement at all

"Disconnect"???? You mean like unintentionally before completing your
onload? Only acceptable with probe/drogue and then not very often.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ron

June 5th 04, 06:22 PM

>I was looking at my granddads records when he flew the D at Ellsworth, and
>once
>>he had 5 refuelings without a disconnect. Seeing as that is at least 20 min
>>each time, seems like not a bad achievement at all
>
>"Disconnect"???? You mean like unintentionally before completing your
>onload? Only acceptable with probe/drogue and then not very often.
>

I meant consecutive refuelings without a disconnect in the middle of it. I
guess what i was reading
implied it happened more, and listed some of the wings Buff pilots and how many
consecutive refuelings
they had done. Maybe times have changed, or possibly misread it, but I am
pretty sure that is what it was.

Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)
Silver City Tanker Base

Ron

June 5th 04, 06:25 PM

>
>Ron wrote:
>
>>Did you know who Tony Kern was from an earlier conversation on here?
>>
>
>No. Who is he?
>

Figured you probably had heard, since he was in the bomber community and wrote
the "Darker Shade of Grey", "Rogue Pilots", both of which I think had quite a
bit about Bud Holland.

He also wrote about airtanker pilots in his rogue pilots book, and apparently
he does not have the highest opinion of those involved in the aerial side of
wildland firefighting. And now that is the national aviation officer for the
USFS, tanker contracts were cancelled last month.

Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)
Silver City Tanker Base

SteveM8597

June 6th 04, 12:05 AM

>
>16 days of vomitig in zero g? Plus teh associated side effects of
>dehydraion, using the toilet while in zero and so on - I'd guess it
>could be pretty damn bad!

Sounds like what I went through for three years while on dialysis and later
with the transplant medications but at 1g.

Still I would have to rate wearing the poopy suit for 6-12 hours and not being
able to stand or stretch as a close second. The poopy suit is pretty much the
same thing as the suit that divers wear to go into sub freezing water.
Absolutely miserable.

Steve M

BUFDRVR

June 6th 04, 02:41 AM

Ron wrote:

>Maybe times have changed, or possibly misread it, but I am
>pretty sure that is what it was

No Ron, you were right. Ed was, I'm sure, being sarcastically flipant. Getting
inadvertant disconnects in any bomber, but particularly in a B-52 is not rare,
particularly at night or in adverse weather. By the time you're a well seasoned
Aircraft Commander, your inadvertant disconnects during good weather and
daylight are almost non-existant...so then you begin doing "limits", that is
intentionally maneuvering the jet within 2-3 feet of the automatic disconnect
limits.

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Steve

June 6th 04, 07:43 PM

On 05 Jun 2004 12:38:51 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

>>Yeah yeah. Try spending 16 days on the flight deck of a shuttle, constantly
>>feeling sick.
>>
>>
>>--
>>Steve.
>>
>
>As long as there is no flak how bad can it be?

Pretty bad so I've heard. Just making a point that everyone has a tough time
at some point.

--
Steve.

Mary Shafer

June 7th 04, 04:03 AM

On 31 May 2004 02:06:19 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

> Our seats aren't comfortable enough so the suggestion to move around in your
> seat to avoid DVT is forced upon you in the BUFF.....although thanks to Mary
> and the guys and gals at Drydan, we were able to get much more comfortable seat
> cushions just in time for OEF, so maybe we'll need classes on DVT avoidance?

It was our pleasure, truly. We were pleased that you wanted our help
and proud that we could provide it. Our Life Support folks are really
great.

The fighter folks should get their g suits fixed up to do compression
waves during flight to help prevent DVT, That would be a friendly g
suit, you have to admit.

I guess you folks in the heavy metal will have to wear elastic
stockings to ward off DVT. I had to wear one after my knee surgery to
keep the swelling down and it wasn't too bad. Warm, though, which
might not be real great under nomex.

I assume the ECS in the BUFF is good enough that you're not going to
try out the ice-water vests that NASCAR drivers use. Those vests have
a connection with the BUFF; they were originally developed for the
X-15 program..

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer