T Tailed Libelle?

[Gary Boggs]

I see on Wings and Wheels there is a T tailed Libelle for sale. I
don't think I've ever seen one of these before. I don't see any
reference of that configuration on the sailplane index. Can anyone
give me any info on them, like how many were made this way, and any
other relevant info?

Thanks

Boggs
www.nwskysports.com

[Doug Hoffman]

GARY BOGGS wrote:
> I see on Wings and Wheels there is a T tailed Libelle for sale. I
> don't think I've ever seen one of these before. I don't see any
> reference of that configuration on the sailplane index. Can anyone
> give me any info on them, like how many were made this way, and any
> other relevant info?

My 1997 Soaring Sailplane Directory shows a T-tailed Club Libelle on
page 59.

Regards,

-Doug

[Doug Hoffman]

Doug Hoffman wrote:
> GARY BOGGS wrote:
>> I see on Wings and Wheels there is a T tailed Libelle for sale. I
>> don't think I've ever seen one of these before. I don't see any
>> reference of that configuration on the sailplane index. Can anyone
>> give me any info on them, like how many were made this way, and any
>> other relevant info?
>
> My 1997 Soaring Sailplane Directory shows a T-tailed Club Libelle on
> page 59.
>
> Regards,
>
> -Doug

Sorry, incomplete answer.

"The Club Libelle is an outgrowth of the Standard Libelle design. Double
taper wings raised to the shoulder position provide greater clearance on
landouts. Th wings carry broad-span trailing edge flaps for approach
control. The landing gear is fixed and a T-tail replaces the low-set
tailplane of the Standard Libelle. ATC.

L/D max 35 @ 49 kt
min sink 1.84 fps @ 36 kt
no built 171
no in US 3

[Mark Wright[_2_]]

At 15:24 04 February 2009, GARY BOGGS wrote:
>I see on Wings and Wheels there is a T tailed Libelle for sale. I
>don't think I've ever seen one of these before. I don't see any
>reference of that configuration on the sailplane index. Can anyone
>give me any info on them, like how many were made this way, and any
>other relevant info?
>
>Thanks
>
>Boggs
>www.nwskysports.com
>
>
It'll be a 205 Club Libelle, T tail, Fixed u/c, high wing . I think
about 170 were made.

[Tim Mara[_2_]]

that would be the Club Libelle.....really not close to a Libelle...different
in almost every respect....different tail, fuselage, cocppit, rear hinged
canopy, Hornet wing with trailing edge dive brake....like I said, not close
to a Libelle ..but still a nice glider...we have 2 locally I imported
several years ago..
tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

"GARY BOGGS" > wrote in message
...
>I see on Wings and Wheels there is a T tailed Libelle for sale. I
> don't think I've ever seen one of these before. I don't see any
> reference of that configuration on the sailplane index. Can anyone
> give me any info on them, like how many were made this way, and any
> other relevant info?
>
> Thanks
>
> Boggs
> www.nwskysports.com
>

[Tea Nott]

Glasflugel 205 Club Libelle - balsa wood core wings

http://www.sailplanedirectory.com/glasflugel.htm




At 16:03 04 February 2009, Tim Mara wrote:
>that would be the Club Libelle.....really not close to a
>Libelle...different
>in almost every respect....different tail, fuselage, cocppit, rear hinged

>canopy, Hornet wing with trailing edge dive brake....like I said, not
>close
>to a Libelle ..but still a nice glider...we have 2 locally I imported
>several years ago..
>tim
>Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com
>
>"GARY BOGGS" wrote in message
...
>>I see on Wings and Wheels there is a T tailed Libelle for sale. I
>> don't think I've ever seen one of these before. I don't see any
>> reference of that configuration on the sailplane index. Can anyone
>> give me any info on them, like how many were made this way, and any
>> other relevant info?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Boggs
>> www.nwskysports.com
>>
>
>
>

[Tim Mara[_2_]]

absolutely not......205 had all foam cores

tim
> Glasflugel 205 Club Libelle - balsa wood core wings
>
> http://www.sailplanedirectory.com/glasflugel.htm
>
>
>
>
> At 16:03 04 February 2009, Tim Mara wrote:
>>that would be the Club Libelle.....really not close to a
>>Libelle...different
>>in almost every respect....different tail, fuselage, cocppit, rear hinged
>
>>canopy, Hornet wing with trailing edge dive brake....like I said, not
>>close
>>to a Libelle ..but still a nice glider...we have 2 locally I imported
>>several years ago..
>>tim
>>Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com
>>
>>"GARY BOGGS" wrote in message
...
>>>I see on Wings and Wheels there is a T tailed Libelle for sale. I
>>> don't think I've ever seen one of these before. I don't see any
>>> reference of that configuration on the sailplane index. Can anyone
>>> give me any info on them, like how many were made this way, and any
>>> other relevant info?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Boggs
>>> www.nwskysports.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>

[Tea Nott]

true, but only for s/n 140 onwards

http://www.streifly.de/TN205-11e.pdf



At 20:35 04 February 2009, Tim Mara wrote:
>absolutely not......205 had all foam cores
>
>tim
>> Glasflugel 205 Club Libelle - balsa wood core wings
>>
>> http://www.sailplanedirectory.com/glasflugel.htm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At 16:03 04 February 2009, Tim Mara wrote:
>>>that would be the Club Libelle.....really not close to a
>>>Libelle...different
>>>in almost every respect....different tail, fuselage, cocppit, rear
>hinged
>>
>>>canopy, Hornet wing with trailing edge dive brake....like I said, not
>>>close
>>>to a Libelle ..but still a nice glider...we have 2 locally I imported
>>>several years ago..
>>>tim
>>>Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com
>>>
>>>"GARY BOGGS" wrote in message
...
>>>>I see on Wings and Wheels there is a T tailed Libelle for sale. I
>>>> don't think I've ever seen one of these before. I don't see any
>>>> reference of that configuration on the sailplane index. Can anyone
>>>> give me any info on them, like how many were made this way, and any
>>>> other relevant info?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Boggs
>>>> www.nwskysports.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>

[Andy[_1_]]

On Feb 4, 2:30*pm, Tea Nott > wrote:
> true, but only for s/n 140 onwards
> http://www.streifly.de/TN205-11e.pdf

[Craig[_2_]]

On Feb 4, 2:55*pm, Andy > wrote:
> On Feb 4, 2:30*pm, Tea Nott > wrote:
>
> > true, but only for s/n 140 onwards
> >http://www.streifly.de/TN205-11e.pdf

The TN is just for the spar web, not the wing skins. You could both
be correct.

Craig

[Martin Gregorie[_4_]]

On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 21:30:06 +0000, Tea Nott wrote:

> true, but only for s/n 140 onwards
>
> http://www.streifly.de/TN205-11e.pdf
>
The last balsa in the Std.Libelle, in the fin and elevator, vanished with
S/N 182 at the end of 1970. Martin Simons says the H.205 was introduced
in 1973 and the first AD is dated 1974, so its chances of containing any
balsa is about zero.

According to Simons the H.205's only vice was a sudden loss of height if
you closed the TE flaps since they added lift and lowered the stalling
speed: not a good thing to do toward the end of finals. I've seen a lot
of Std.Libelles (there are three on our field including my all-balsa
example, S/N 82) but I've never seen an H.205 in the flesh.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Bruce Hoult]

On Feb 5, 1:26*pm, Martin Gregorie
> wrote:
> According to Simons the H.205's only vice was a sudden loss of height if
> you closed the TE flaps since they added lift and lowered the stalling
> speed: not a good thing to do toward the end of finals. I've seen a lot
> of Std.Libelles (there are three on our field including my all-balsa
> example, S/N 82) but I've never seen an H.205 in the flesh.

We had one at Wellington club from I don't know when until 1996 or
so. At the time I started to learn to fly you went from a Blanik to
the Club Libelle as your first single-seater. It was a big jump!! By
the time I got to that point the club had acquired a K6, which was an
excellent in-between step. I did about 60 or 70 hours in the Club
Libelle, including taking it to Omarama for recreational flying on my
off days when I was helping with the scoring at the 1995 Worlds.

The airbrakes did have a significant flap effect and lowered the stall
speed by about 5 knots. I don't know how anyone could have a problem
because of that though -- you're not going to get into trouble unless
you're flying at under the clean stall speed, which would be
insanity. Just fly your approach at clean stall speed plus 10 (plus
half the wind) and the variation of stall speed with brakes never
becomes an issue. Then go to full brakes as you come over the fence
or in the flare (if you weren't already) and you get excellent
deceleration in the air, an impressively low touchdown speed and short
rollout. It was just fantastic for doing approaches over trees, and I
found that a vertical dive with brakes open gave about 85 knots, which
was below the rough air speed.

By far the bigger problem at our field was people landing with partial
brake and getting flap effect but not much brake and floating all the
way down the runway.

Someone said it had Hornet wings. I don't believe so. The plan and
profile were as far as I could tell the same as the Std Libelle, with
only the airbrakes (and mounting position) different.

In theory the performance was less than a Std Libelle. I believe the
Club Libelle was deliberately dumbed down to get the best L/D down to
35 for the then Club Class rules (see Club Astir also). It had a much
roomier cockpit and fixed undercarriage. However it was pretty hard
to tell the difference. We had a Std Libelle as well and I flew one
or the other many times in company with the other and any difference
was tiny. I remember doing a final glide of about 30 km in the Club
Libelle, side by side with the Std Libelle, and we were maybe 50 ft
apart in height at the end.

[Peter Thomas[_2_]]

The Hornet is a type certificate variant of the Club Libelle, uses the
tailboom, tailplane, rudder and cockpit. The Hornet wing is a reinforced
version to take waterballast, both appear to be very similar to the
original Standard Libelle wing

The Mosquito fuz was pretty much the same and followed on to the 304 which
HPH still make

the Club Libelle is the original aircraft with the Hanel automatic control
connections

Realy nice glider to fly if you can keep the wingtips of the ground when
you launch, otherwise rather more practical than the Standard Libelle,
sensible cockpit and much more stable. seem to be popular in german
clubclass the wing is resonably rain and bug resistant, and it would seem
a resonable handicap advantage

Pete

Hornet Sn 39
Club Libelle Sn 22


At 05:04 05 February 2009, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>On Feb 5, 1:26=A0pm, Martin Gregorie
> wrote:
>> According to Simons the H.205's only vice was a sudden loss of height
if
>> you closed the TE flaps since they added lift and lowered the stalling
>> speed: not a good thing to do toward the end of finals. I've seen a
lot
>> of Std.Libelles (there are three on our field including my all-balsa
>> example, S/N 82) but I've never seen an H.205 in the flesh.
>
>We had one at Wellington club from I don't know when until 1996 or
>so. At the time I started to learn to fly you went from a Blanik to
>the Club Libelle as your first single-seater. It was a big jump!! By
>the time I got to that point the club had acquired a K6, which was an
>excellent in-between step. I did about 60 or 70 hours in the Club
>Libelle, including taking it to Omarama for recreational flying on my
>off days when I was helping with the scoring at the 1995 Worlds.
>
>The airbrakes did have a significant flap effect and lowered the stall
>speed by about 5 knots. I don't know how anyone could have a problem
>because of that though -- you're not going to get into trouble unless
>you're flying at under the clean stall speed, which would be
>insanity. Just fly your approach at clean stall speed plus 10 (plus
>half the wind) and the variation of stall speed with brakes never
>becomes an issue. Then go to full brakes as you come over the fence
>or in the flare (if you weren't already) and you get excellent
>deceleration in the air, an impressively low touchdown speed and short
>rollout. It was just fantastic for doing approaches over trees, and I
>found that a vertical dive with brakes open gave about 85 knots, which
>was below the rough air speed.
>
>By far the bigger problem at our field was people landing with partial
>brake and getting flap effect but not much brake and floating all the
>way down the runway.
>
>Someone said it had Hornet wings. I don't believe so. The plan and
>profile were as far as I could tell the same as the Std Libelle, with
>only the airbrakes (and mounting position) different.
>
>In theory the performance was less than a Std Libelle. I believe the
>Club Libelle was deliberately dumbed down to get the best L/D down to
>35 for the then Club Class rules (see Club Astir also). It had a much
>roomier cockpit and fixed undercarriage. However it was pretty hard
>to tell the difference. We had a Std Libelle as well and I flew one
>or the other many times in company with the other and any difference
>was tiny. I remember doing a final glide of about 30 km in the Club
>Libelle, side by side with the Std Libelle, and we were maybe 50 ft
>apart in height at the end.
>
>