Florida Mil Comms Loggings - Mon, 17 May 2004

[AllanStern]

Monday, 17 May 2004
Interesting comms today: some concerning one of the nation's newest acft,
the F/A-22 now at Tyndall AFB, and some about the good old days when "The Real
Stuff" was going on at Cape Canaveral, and I was there.

AIR TRANSPORT 400: DC-8, Little Rock (USAF Contractor)
8:58am: Lands Patrick. Later departs to Antigua, then to Ascension - both USAF
Eastern Test Range downrange sites.
[133.75]

N4667B: CE-208B Cessna Caravan, US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air Wing,
Patrick AFB.
9:17am: Departs Patrick.
2:50pm: Lands Patrick.
[133.75]

HAWK 85; F/A-18D, Beaufort MCAS VMFA(AW)-533
9:44am: Transitions area to Mayport NAF
[269.3, 273.55]

MAKOs 11, 12: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
10:01am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
[292.2, 138.125]

SHARK 21: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
10:25am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
10:45am: RTBs to HST.
[292.2, 307.1, 139.8]

AX 186: C-130T, Andrews AFB VR-53 "Capitol Express"
10:31am: Area transition. Might be C-40 acft replacing VR-53's C-130Ts, as
noted by Sandy in Colo recently.
[133.475, 132.15]

BRONCO 01: OV-10D, US State Dept US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air
Wing, Patrick AFB.
10:45am: Departs Patrick (flight of 2).
4:12pm: Lands Patrick.
[133.75]

AKULA 31: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
10:52am: Single ship, arrives at Avon Park Bombing Range.
[292.2, 307.1]

JOLLYs 11, 12: HH-60G Pave Hawk Helos, Patrick AFB 920RQW
11:51am: Departs Patrick; approaches at KMLB, Patrick.
[269.375]

PJ 610: P-3C, Whidbey Island NAS VP-69 "Totems" Sqdn
12:10pm: Lands Patrick.
[269.375]

HQ 475: SH-60B, Mayport NAF HSL-46 "Grandmasters" Sqdn
12:30pm: Area transition.
[132.65]

VDA 4813: AN-124, Volga Dnepr (Contractor)
2:30pm: Departs NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Facility. This huge Ukrainian
transport had RONd previous night after bringing large aerospace cargo. Note
RON at SLF instead of CCAFS whose runway is closed for construction.
[128.55, 132.65, 124.8, 133.3]

VAMPIRE 72: F/A-22, Tyndall AFB 325FW 43FS
2:45pm: Touch and go at Patrick on apparent fam flight through area; remains at
low altitude (and therefor VHF freqs). This is my first snag of comms from an
F/A-22. Was a bit too low and fast for me to get into my camera window.
Tyndall is USAF's only F/A-22 schoolhouse; so I expect to see more of them.
Made a wonderful shallow swooping pass over my house off of Patrick's Rnwy 20
before heading south along the coast. I LIKE this plane. Looks like it loves to
roll.
[133.75, 1312.65, 132.25]

SHARKs 21, 22, 23: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
3:00pm: Strafing at Avon Park Bombing Range.
[292.2, 285.725, 139.8]

MAKO 11 Flight: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
3:00pm: Hitting tgts at Avon Park.
3:04pm: MAKO 11 has to RTB HST with problem.
3:40pm: Balance of flight RTBs.
[292.2, 285.725, 307.1, 269.3, 239.25, 370.9, 322.5]

SHARK 89: C-130.
3:39pm: Area transition, to waypoint Nassau.
[119.825]

LIMA LIMA 38: P-3C Jacksonville NAS VP-30 "Pro's Nest" Sqdn.
3:45pm: Area transition.
[133.475]

ZANTOP 757: Zantop Intl (Charter), Ypsilanti MI
5:27pm: Area transition.
Those of us who were here in the 1960s Hey-days of the space program, remember
the ever-present Zantop acft at Patrick AFB, supporting operations. ZANTOP 757
engaged in some great reminiscences about those days; this pilot flew flights
into Patrick in the old days, and the 133.475 ATC was controlling flights back
then. Nice to hear them chat and to feel the nostalgia of my days during the
Gemini missions and the Saturn-Apollo moon-landing flights. I used to monitor
the action right from the beach in those days.

BOLT 13: KC-135R, MacDill 6AMW.
10:03pm: En route to Homestead.
[133.475, 119.825, 132.25]

AL STERN Satellite Beach FL (28-11N 80-36W) monitoring
 Patrick AFB (KCOF)  NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Fac (KX68)
 Avon Park Bombing Range (KAGR)  Cape Canaveral AFS (KXMR)
 JSTARS E-8 Acft Integration Facility, Melbourne IAP (KMLB)
 Worldwide Military HF Communications
 Life Member: Missile, Space and Range Pioneers.
 http://hometown.aol.com/allanstern/myhomepage/index.html (My Freqs)
 http://hometown.aol.com/scanaddict/index.html (My Equipment)

[fudog50]

Allan,
I really don't think anyone is impressed with your continued
posts of "Mil Comms Loggings" around Eglin, P'cola etc., certainly not
me.
While you may be protected by laws, what you are doing and
posting is certainly subject to scrutiny by any country at war,
especially your own.....

Just another piece of the puzzle my friend that you are
willingly exposing to anyone, friend or foe, ya oughta stop posting
this stuff.

Ok, it's cool you know how to intercept military unencrypted
ATC comms, but does anyone other than an adversary really care???

Lots of people do this stuff out of curiosity and "wannabe"
pshyches. But they don't post it to the world and make it easier for
potential adversaries to map our techniques. Let them spend the time
and money to do it.

Just remember, that military ship/aircraft movements during
peacetime are sensitive and that during war are classified. What you
are doing is definitely gray area stuff and warrants looking into.

You have been reported to NCIS. When something smells bad, it
usually is, not always. Hope you have nothing to fear, however you
will most certainly be investigated. You might not ever know. Then
again, you might? Standby.



On 18 May 2004 03:17:15 GMT, (AllanStern) wrote:

> Monday, 17 May 2004
> Interesting comms today: some concerning one of the nation's newest acft,
>the F/A-22 now at Tyndall AFB, and some about the good old days when "The Real
>Stuff" was going on at Cape Canaveral, and I was there.
>
>AIR TRANSPORT 400: DC-8, Little Rock (USAF Contractor)
>8:58am: Lands Patrick. Later departs to Antigua, then to Ascension - both USAF
>Eastern Test Range downrange sites.
>[133.75]
>
>N4667B: CE-208B Cessna Caravan, US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air Wing,
>Patrick AFB.
>9:17am: Departs Patrick.
>2:50pm: Lands Patrick.
>[133.75]
>
>HAWK 85; F/A-18D, Beaufort MCAS VMFA(AW)-533
>9:44am: Transitions area to Mayport NAF
>[269.3, 273.55]
>
>MAKOs 11, 12: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
>10:01am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
>[292.2, 138.125]
>
>SHARK 21: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
>10:25am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
>10:45am: RTBs to HST.
>[292.2, 307.1, 139.8]
>
>AX 186: C-130T, Andrews AFB VR-53 "Capitol Express"
>10:31am: Area transition. Might be C-40 acft replacing VR-53's C-130Ts, as
>noted by Sandy in Colo recently.
>[133.475, 132.15]
>
>BRONCO 01: OV-10D, US State Dept US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air
>Wing, Patrick AFB.
>10:45am: Departs Patrick (flight of 2).
>4:12pm: Lands Patrick.
>[133.75]
>
>AKULA 31: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
>10:52am: Single ship, arrives at Avon Park Bombing Range.
>[292.2, 307.1]
>
>JOLLYs 11, 12: HH-60G Pave Hawk Helos, Patrick AFB 920RQW
>11:51am: Departs Patrick; approaches at KMLB, Patrick.
>[269.375]
>
>PJ 610: P-3C, Whidbey Island NAS VP-69 "Totems" Sqdn
>12:10pm: Lands Patrick.
>[269.375]
>
>HQ 475: SH-60B, Mayport NAF HSL-46 "Grandmasters" Sqdn
>12:30pm: Area transition.
>[132.65]
>
>VDA 4813: AN-124, Volga Dnepr (Contractor)
>2:30pm: Departs NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Facility. This huge Ukrainian
>transport had RONd previous night after bringing large aerospace cargo. Note
>RON at SLF instead of CCAFS whose runway is closed for construction.
>[128.55, 132.65, 124.8, 133.3]
>
>VAMPIRE 72: F/A-22, Tyndall AFB 325FW 43FS
>2:45pm: Touch and go at Patrick on apparent fam flight through area; remains at
>low altitude (and therefor VHF freqs). This is my first snag of comms from an
>F/A-22. Was a bit too low and fast for me to get into my camera window.
>Tyndall is USAF's only F/A-22 schoolhouse; so I expect to see more of them.
>Made a wonderful shallow swooping pass over my house off of Patrick's Rnwy 20
>before heading south along the coast. I LIKE this plane. Looks like it loves to
>roll.
>[133.75, 1312.65, 132.25]
>
>SHARKs 21, 22, 23: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
>3:00pm: Strafing at Avon Park Bombing Range.
>[292.2, 285.725, 139.8]
>
>MAKO 11 Flight: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
>3:00pm: Hitting tgts at Avon Park.
>3:04pm: MAKO 11 has to RTB HST with problem.
>3:40pm: Balance of flight RTBs.
>[292.2, 285.725, 307.1, 269.3, 239.25, 370.9, 322.5]
>
>SHARK 89: C-130.
>3:39pm: Area transition, to waypoint Nassau.
>[119.825]
>
>LIMA LIMA 38: P-3C Jacksonville NAS VP-30 "Pro's Nest" Sqdn.
>3:45pm: Area transition.
>[133.475]
>
>ZANTOP 757: Zantop Intl (Charter), Ypsilanti MI
>5:27pm: Area transition.
>Those of us who were here in the 1960s Hey-days of the space program, remember
>the ever-present Zantop acft at Patrick AFB, supporting operations. ZANTOP 757
>engaged in some great reminiscences about those days; this pilot flew flights
>into Patrick in the old days, and the 133.475 ATC was controlling flights back
>then. Nice to hear them chat and to feel the nostalgia of my days during the
>Gemini missions and the Saturn-Apollo moon-landing flights. I used to monitor
>the action right from the beach in those days.
>
>BOLT 13: KC-135R, MacDill 6AMW.
>10:03pm: En route to Homestead.
>[133.475, 119.825, 132.25]
>
>AL STERN Satellite Beach FL (28-11N 80-36W) monitoring
> Patrick AFB (KCOF)  NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Fac (KX68)
> Avon Park Bombing Range (KAGR)  Cape Canaveral AFS (KXMR)
> JSTARS E-8 Acft Integration Facility, Melbourne IAP (KMLB)
> Worldwide Military HF Communications
> Life Member: Missile, Space and Range Pioneers.
> http://hometown.aol.com/allanstern/myhomepage/index.html (My Freqs)
> http://hometown.aol.com/scanaddict/index.html (My Equipment)

[Robey Price]

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, fudog50
> confessed the following:

On Tue, 18 May 2004 05:41:45 GMT, in rec.aviation.military you wrote:

> While you may be protected by laws, what you are doing and
>posting is certainly subject to scrutiny by any country at war,
>especially your own.....

Say what? Awww fer cryin' out loud...

> Ok, it's cool you know how to intercept military unencrypted
>ATC comms, but does anyone other than an adversary really care???

Ummm since when are ATC communications with FAA centers sensitive?
Afraid that some bad guy will find out F-16s use the Avon Park
bombing range?

> Lots of people do this stuff out of curiosity and "wannabe"
>pshyches. But they don't post it to the world and make it easier for
>potential adversaries to map our techniques. Let them spend the time
>and money to do it.

Map our techniques? I'd be willing to bet you never actually practiced
these "techniques" you're worried about. Guess you'll want magazines
like Air Forces Monthly, Air Combat, AW&ST classified...hell Air
Combat publishes a yearly AOB issue. Hell better get the AF to stop
publishing Airman magazine too. Better arrest Guy Alcala for "the good
of the nation," he knows waay too much. [Guy blame me if you get a
vacation to Gitmo...]

> Just remember, that military ship/aircraft movements during
>peacetime are sensitive and that during war are classified. What you
>are doing is definitely gray area stuff and warrants looking into.

Oh piffle, gray area my happy ass. Airplanes takeoff and land at
Patrick AFB...whoopee. I'd be worried about some evil-doer[tm] reading
an airline timetable and hosing off RPGs or MANPADS rounds at a
"whale."

> You have been reported to NCIS. When something smells bad, it
>usually is, not always. Hope you have nothing to fear, however you
>will most certainly be investigated. You might not ever know. Then
>again, you might? Standby.

Boy I bet that's got him scared now. Maybe the agent that "catches"
your report will be smart enough to roll her eyes and note your
paranoia, then again she just might think you're on to something
(that'd be very scary).

But at least Allan left his URL so it'll be harder for the secret
squirrel types to find him, finding me will be harder KOOL NI TS LUAP
ATOSENNIM REDNU "P" NI EHT ENOHP KOOB. [just in case you're
tumbleweed, KOOL = look, NI = in...]

Juvat

[T3]

"Robey Price" > wrote in message
...
> After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, fudog50
> > confessed the following:
>
> On Tue, 18 May 2004 05:41:45 GMT, in rec.aviation.military you wrote:
>
> > While you may be protected by laws, what you are doing and
> >posting is certainly subject to scrutiny by any country at war,
> >especially your own.....
>
> Say what? Awww fer cryin' out loud...
>
> > Ok, it's cool you know how to intercept military unencrypted
> >ATC comms, but does anyone other than an adversary really care???
>
> Ummm since when are ATC communications with FAA centers sensitive?
> Afraid that some bad guy will find out F-16s use the Avon Park
> bombing range?
>
> > Lots of people do this stuff out of curiosity and "wannabe"
> >pshyches. But they don't post it to the world and make it easier for
> >potential adversaries to map our techniques. Let them spend the time
> >and money to do it.
>
>
>
It would seem that you(fudog50) are the "wannabe," mister net cop... I, and
I'm
sure others enjoy reading Allen's posts, if you don't like them or him don't
read them.
Jeez, unbelievable!!
Regards,
T3

[CallsignZippo]

With all due respect a significant overreaction to the above poster
who monitors military (AC) comms. Although the forum he has elected
to post his intercepts may not be correct, neither was your response.

Having worked AF military radio shacks from Andrews to Croughton and
points in between, his posts, although probably off topic certainly
did not warrant a call to NCIS.

My AF Service goes back to the days of the old Global Command and
Control System-Stations AFCC/ATOS and ended shortly after the
introduction of now numerous SATCOM systems. I, as well as
innumerable other radio operators and drivers often received radio
transmission verification requests. Returning a unit patch and a
verification card was SOP in most cases.

There are numerous publications including "Monitoring Times" that
frequently publishes information regarding military comms that are far
more sensitive than Allan's intercepts.

Your statement(s); "You have been reported to the NCIS". "When
something smells bad, it usually is", "You will certainly be
investigated" et al, are pure gibberish.

Lastly, all the intercepts Allen has posted were made in the clear on
known VHF-UHF mil com frequencies, he has not "exposed" anything to
any adversary. When Allen starts posting decrypted frequency hop mode
xmits, I will become concerned. Until then, as my kids use to say,
"chill out".

[Guy Alcala]

Robey Price wrote:

> After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, fudog50
> > confessed the following:
>
> On Tue, 18 May 2004 05:41:45 GMT, in rec.aviation.military you wrote:
>
> > While you may be protected by laws, what you are doing and
> >posting is certainly subject to scrutiny by any country at war,
> >especially your own.....
>
> Say what? Awww fer cryin' out loud...
>
> > Ok, it's cool you know how to intercept military unencrypted
> >ATC comms, but does anyone other than an adversary really care???
>
> Ummm since when are ATC communications with FAA centers sensitive?
> Afraid that some bad guy will find out F-16s use the Avon Park
> bombing range?
>
> > Lots of people do this stuff out of curiosity and "wannabe"
> >pshyches. But they don't post it to the world and make it easier for
> >potential adversaries to map our techniques. Let them spend the time
> >and money to do it.
>
> Map our techniques? I'd be willing to bet you never actually practiced
> these "techniques" you're worried about. Guess you'll want magazines
> like Air Forces Monthly, Air Combat, AW&ST classified...hell Air
> Combat publishes a yearly AOB issue. Hell better get the AF to stop
> publishing Airman magazine too. Better arrest Guy Alcala for "the good
> of the nation," he knows waay too much. [Guy blame me if you get a
> vacation to Gitmo...]

<snip>

Oh, I've always wanted to roll over and rat someone out to the feds! With
my luck I'll get classified as an enemy combatant -- being a Northern
California native probably qualifies me in the eyes of this administration
;-) And to think I believed that reading and analysing data from open
sources was a completely legal activity in this country. OTOH, the USAF
supposedly made the attempt to classify Maxwell's equations some years
back (stealth, don't you know), which would have been an interesting
exercise in ex-post facto censorship. I can see them now, trying to round
up 100 or so years worth of college physics textbooks;-)

Guy

[fudog50]

Yeah I apologize for that one,,had a bad day and was a little
sensitive about the security issues,,,just trying to make a point,,,it
ain't business as usual anymore, and if you think it still is,,,then
go ahead.

but,,,how do you know if you don't like them if you don't read them?

On Tue, 18 May 2004 13:40:33 GMT, "T3" > wrote:

>
>"Robey Price" > wrote in message
...
>> After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, fudog50
>> > confessed the following:
>>
>> On Tue, 18 May 2004 05:41:45 GMT, in rec.aviation.military you wrote:
>>
>> > While you may be protected by laws, what you are doing and
>> >posting is certainly subject to scrutiny by any country at war,
>> >especially your own.....
>>
>> Say what? Awww fer cryin' out loud...
>>
>> > Ok, it's cool you know how to intercept military unencrypted
>> >ATC comms, but does anyone other than an adversary really care???
>>
>> Ummm since when are ATC communications with FAA centers sensitive?
>> Afraid that some bad guy will find out F-16s use the Avon Park
>> bombing range?
>>
>> > Lots of people do this stuff out of curiosity and "wannabe"
>> >pshyches. But they don't post it to the world and make it easier for
>> >potential adversaries to map our techniques. Let them spend the time
>> >and money to do it.
>>
>>
>>
>It would seem that you(fudog50) are the "wannabe," mister net cop... I, and
>I'm
>sure others enjoy reading Allen's posts, if you don't like them or him don't
>read them.
>Jeez, unbelievable!!
> Regards,
> T3
>

[fudog50]

My point exactly,,,while what he is doing is ok,,,posting it to the
world is suspect,,,especially his motives?

On 18 May 2004 09:25:54 -0700,
(CallsignZippo) wrote:

>With all due respect a significant overreaction to the above poster
>who monitors military (AC) comms. Although the forum he has elected
>to post his intercepts may not be correct, neither was your response.
>
>Having worked AF military radio shacks from Andrews to Croughton and
>points in between, his posts, although probably off topic certainly
>did not warrant a call to NCIS.
>
>My AF Service goes back to the days of the old Global Command and
>Control System-Stations AFCC/ATOS and ended shortly after the
>introduction of now numerous SATCOM systems. I, as well as
>innumerable other radio operators and drivers often received radio
>transmission verification requests. Returning a unit patch and a
>verification card was SOP in most cases.
>
>There are numerous publications including "Monitoring Times" that
>frequently publishes information regarding military comms that are far
>more sensitive than Allan's intercepts.
>
>Your statement(s); "You have been reported to the NCIS". "When
>something smells bad, it usually is", "You will certainly be
>investigated" et al, are pure gibberish.
>
>Lastly, all the intercepts Allen has posted were made in the clear on
>known VHF-UHF mil com frequencies, he has not "exposed" anything to
>any adversary. When Allen starts posting decrypted frequency hop mode
>xmits, I will become concerned. Until then, as my kids use to say,
>"chill out".

[sameolesid]

fudog50 > wrote in message >...
> My point exactly,,,while what he is doing is ok,,,posting it to the
> world is suspect,,,especially his motives?
>
Give it a rest fudog, there's nuthin classified here. Mr Stern's posts
are entertaining...Thats it!!

[fudog50]

You're right, I'll give it a rest,,,there is nothing
classified,,,
like I said sensitive maybe,,just a normal reaction to this stuff due
to years on the pointy end during the cold war,,,try to post that
stuff in the 80's,,,
While it may be that you feel you are free to post any kind of
sensitive **** on here because of an ego thing, and it is totally
unclassified,,,just remember, our friends used to be our enemies, and
just as fast as it changed,,, it could change again.
Like I said,,,just another piece of the puzzle. Go ahead and
keep showing the world how CONOPS are performed in a military ATC
environment and the pattern of the COMMS, very smart.
"Military" is the key word here, and if you still feel it's ok
to post to the world our military Comms during a time of war, then
keep going, then we will see who's side you are on.
You seem to forget that "usenet" is the entire world, not just
some people here in the states you are trying to impress.


On 19 May 2004 21:01:25 -0700, (sameolesid) wrote:

>fudog50 > wrote in message >...
>> My point exactly,,,while what he is doing is ok,,,posting it to the
>> world is suspect,,,especially his motives?
>>
>Give it a rest fudog, there's nuthin classified here. Mr Stern's posts
>are entertaining...Thats it!!

[Robey Price]

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Guy Alcala
confessed the following:

>Oh, I've always wanted to roll over and rat someone out to the feds! With
>my luck I'll get classified as an enemy combatant -- being a Northern
>California native probably qualifies me in the eyes of this administration
>;-)

Of course we know that Guy Alcala is simply a clever play on words,
Al-Guycala (the extra c-a is merely a form of phonetic MIJI) hence
Al-Guyla (say it fast, kinda slurred) is pretty darn close to
al-Quada, ergo you are a spy.

If Saddam Hussein had ties to al-Qaeda, by golly you clearly do too.
Kindly turn over your WMD.

> And to think I believed that reading and analysing data from open
>sources was a completely legal activity in this country.

Subversive! Thinking...there'll be none of that.

> OTOH, the USAF
>supposedly made the attempt to classify Maxwell's equations some years
>back (stealth, don't you know), which would have been an interesting
>exercise in ex-post facto censorship.

You've given me an idea, maybe I can sell Avagadro's number (he was a
Mole afterall) and Planck's constant on e-Bay.

Juvat

[Howard Berkowitz]

In article >, fudog50
> wrote:

> You're right, I'll give it a rest,,,there is nothing
> classified,,,
> like I said sensitive maybe,,just a normal reaction to this stuff due
> to years on the pointy end during the cold war,,,try to post that
> stuff in the 80's,,,
> While it may be that you feel you are free to post any kind of
> sensitive **** on here because of an ego thing, and it is totally
> unclassified,,,just remember, our friends used to be our enemies, and
> just as fast as it changed,,, it could change again.
> Like I said,,,just another piece of the puzzle. Go ahead and
> keep showing the world how CONOPS are performed in a military ATC
> environment and the pattern of the COMMS, very smart.
> "Military" is the key word here, and if you still feel it's ok
> to post to the world our military Comms during a time of war, then
> keep going, then we will see who's side you are on.
> You seem to forget that "usenet" is the entire world, not just
> some people here in the states you are trying to impress.
>

You may or may not be aware of what an intelligence analyst will
actually do with such open source data. Having been in that role, were I
assigned to characterize US military operating procedures, and found
these posts, I'd start by asking some of the following questions:

1. Is Guy Alcala actually what he claims to be, or is this a US
disinformation operation posting slightly-altered-from-reality
data intended to confuse OSINT (Open Source Intelligence)?

2. If he is who he purports to be, does his monitoring cover a
statistically significant part of the operational period?
By relying on his data, might I come up with an accurate
picture of US communications procedures for the times when
he is at home and not sleeping? Or, might I wind up making
assumptions for late night operations -- which the US _loves_ --
based on his obervation during more sensible hours?

3. How valuable is accurate data? If I just want to familiarize
my people with what US communications sound like, it may be
adequate. If, however, there's a critical need -- we plan
to disrupt operational communications in a future operation --
is OSINT the correct way to go?

This is the "collection guidance" problem -- what is the best
means to gather the data for a requirement laid upon me?
If OSINT from one source (Guy) isn't enough, are there enough
bobbyists posting from other locations that I can build an
adequate mosaic from OSINT? Should I dedicate COMINT resources?

How much human skill is needed to do the intercepts? Could
I get away with a one-time infiltration of a programmable
radio receiver, which creates audio files and transmits them
steganographically to my processing center? Do I need to
infiltrate an innocent-appearing person to, say, be a retiree
in Florida [1] that has a hobby of radio listening, and then
again securely sends me his findings?

[1] Obviously a very poor cover identity for Florida...NOT. Much easier
to have someone in this role, perhaps posing as a retired Canadian
rug store salesman that is now a snowbird, rather than a tough-
looking robed and daggered fedayeen

The bottom line is that even if I were a hostile intelligence analyst, I
might rationally decide not to use his data, or use it for background
only. There are other ways to get the information, perhaps with greater
risk and expense, but also more accuracy or statistical significance.

One subtle point is that TOO MUCH open source information may be as
great a handicap, to foreign analysts, than too little. If they have to
spend a great deal of time evaluating the reliability and coverage of
the OSINT, it just may be simpler to do COMINT.

[miso]

It's really sad that they are still running single engine Cessna's in
the war on drugs given we lost two such planes in Columbia and US
citizens are still being held hostage from one of the crashes. I
wasn't aware the US had any of those Caravans registered in their own
name, rather than hide behind a shell corporation like "One Leasing".

As always, a nice job in mil air coms by Mr. Stern.


(AllanStern) wrote in message >...
> Monday, 17 May 2004
> Interesting comms today: some concerning one of the nation's newest acft,
> the F/A-22 now at Tyndall AFB, and some about the good old days when "The Real
> Stuff" was going on at Cape Canaveral, and I was there.
>
> AIR TRANSPORT 400: DC-8, Little Rock (USAF Contractor)
> 8:58am: Lands Patrick. Later departs to Antigua, then to Ascension - both USAF
> Eastern Test Range downrange sites.
> [133.75]
>
> N4667B: CE-208B Cessna Caravan, US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air Wing,
> Patrick AFB.
> 9:17am: Departs Patrick.
> 2:50pm: Lands Patrick.
> [133.75]
>
> HAWK 85; F/A-18D, Beaufort MCAS VMFA(AW)-533
> 9:44am: Transitions area to Mayport NAF
> [269.3, 273.55]
>
> MAKOs 11, 12: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> 10:01am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
> [292.2, 138.125]
>
> SHARK 21: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> 10:25am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
> 10:45am: RTBs to HST.
> [292.2, 307.1, 139.8]
>
> AX 186: C-130T, Andrews AFB VR-53 "Capitol Express"
> 10:31am: Area transition. Might be C-40 acft replacing VR-53's C-130Ts, as
> noted by Sandy in Colo recently.
> [133.475, 132.15]
>
> BRONCO 01: OV-10D, US State Dept US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air
> Wing, Patrick AFB.
> 10:45am: Departs Patrick (flight of 2).
> 4:12pm: Lands Patrick.
> [133.75]
>
> AKULA 31: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> 10:52am: Single ship, arrives at Avon Park Bombing Range.
> [292.2, 307.1]
>
> JOLLYs 11, 12: HH-60G Pave Hawk Helos, Patrick AFB 920RQW
> 11:51am: Departs Patrick; approaches at KMLB, Patrick.
> [269.375]
>
> PJ 610: P-3C, Whidbey Island NAS VP-69 "Totems" Sqdn
> 12:10pm: Lands Patrick.
> [269.375]
>
> HQ 475: SH-60B, Mayport NAF HSL-46 "Grandmasters" Sqdn
> 12:30pm: Area transition.
> [132.65]
>
> VDA 4813: AN-124, Volga Dnepr (Contractor)
> 2:30pm: Departs NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Facility. This huge Ukrainian
> transport had RONd previous night after bringing large aerospace cargo. Note
> RON at SLF instead of CCAFS whose runway is closed for construction.
> [128.55, 132.65, 124.8, 133.3]
>
> VAMPIRE 72: F/A-22, Tyndall AFB 325FW 43FS
> 2:45pm: Touch and go at Patrick on apparent fam flight through area; remains at
> low altitude (and therefor VHF freqs). This is my first snag of comms from an
> F/A-22. Was a bit too low and fast for me to get into my camera window.
> Tyndall is USAF's only F/A-22 schoolhouse; so I expect to see more of them.
> Made a wonderful shallow swooping pass over my house off of Patrick's Rnwy 20
> before heading south along the coast. I LIKE this plane. Looks like it loves to
> roll.
> [133.75, 1312.65, 132.25]
>
> SHARKs 21, 22, 23: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> 3:00pm: Strafing at Avon Park Bombing Range.
> [292.2, 285.725, 139.8]
>
> MAKO 11 Flight: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> 3:00pm: Hitting tgts at Avon Park.
> 3:04pm: MAKO 11 has to RTB HST with problem.
> 3:40pm: Balance of flight RTBs.
> [292.2, 285.725, 307.1, 269.3, 239.25, 370.9, 322.5]
>
> SHARK 89: C-130.
> 3:39pm: Area transition, to waypoint Nassau.
> [119.825]
>
> LIMA LIMA 38: P-3C Jacksonville NAS VP-30 "Pro's Nest" Sqdn.
> 3:45pm: Area transition.
> [133.475]
>
> ZANTOP 757: Zantop Intl (Charter), Ypsilanti MI
> 5:27pm: Area transition.
> Those of us who were here in the 1960s Hey-days of the space program, remember
> the ever-present Zantop acft at Patrick AFB, supporting operations. ZANTOP 757
> engaged in some great reminiscences about those days; this pilot flew flights
> into Patrick in the old days, and the 133.475 ATC was controlling flights back
> then. Nice to hear them chat and to feel the nostalgia of my days during the
> Gemini missions and the Saturn-Apollo moon-landing flights. I used to monitor
> the action right from the beach in those days.
>
> BOLT 13: KC-135R, MacDill 6AMW.
> 10:03pm: En route to Homestead.
> [133.475, 119.825, 132.25]
>
> AL STERN Satellite Beach FL (28-11N 80-36W) monitoring
> Patrick AFB (KCOF) NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Fac (KX68)
> Avon Park Bombing Range (KAGR) Cape Canaveral AFS (KXMR)
> JSTARS E-8 Acft Integration Facility, Melbourne IAP (KMLB)
> Worldwide Military HF Communications
> Life Member: Missile, Space and Range Pioneers.
> http://hometown.aol.com/allanstern/myhomepage/index.html (My Freqs)
> http://hometown.aol.com/scanaddict/index.html (My Equipment)

[Guy Alcala]

Robey Price wrote:

> After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Guy Alcala
> confessed the following:
>
> >Oh, I've always wanted to roll over and rat someone out to the feds! With
> >my luck I'll get classified as an enemy combatant -- being a Northern
> >California native probably qualifies me in the eyes of this administration
> >;-)
>
> Of course we know that Guy Alcala is simply a clever play on words,
> Al-Guycala (the extra c-a is merely a form of phonetic MIJI) hence
> Al-Guyla (say it fast, kinda slurred) is pretty darn close to
> al-Quada, ergo you are a spy.
>
> If Saddam Hussein had ties to al-Qaeda, by golly you clearly do too.
> Kindly turn over your WMD.

Gasp! I knew I never should have talked on my cell phone about going to the
hardware store to restock my stash of Weed-B-Gone. You've figured out the
code, Infidel Dog! Allah curse you!

> > And to think I believed that reading and analysing data from open
> >sources was a completely legal activity in this country.
>
> Subversive! Thinking...there'll be none of that.

Well, I must confess I received my early training in critical thinking in that
hotbed of revolutionary training, the California public primary and secondary
school system of the 1960s and '70s. These 'madrassas' clearly had to be
stamped out if we're ever to win the war on terror. Fortunately for the
American way of life, over the last thirty years, through a combination of
political correctness, grade inflation and the effects of Prop. 13 on school
budgets, we've been successful in de-emphasizing the use of logic and reasoning
skills, and indeed almost all forms of debate that doesn't involve shouting at
each other, waving signs or suing. Take that, secular humanist zealots!

> > OTOH, the USAF
> >supposedly made the attempt to classify Maxwell's equations some years
> >back (stealth, don't you know), which would have been an interesting
> >exercise in ex-post facto censorship.
>
> You've given me an idea, maybe I can sell Avagadro's number (he was a
> Mole afterall) and Planck's constant on e-Bay.

You have to give potential buyers a tease -- just to whet their appetite, tell
them what a coulomb is for free, just to establish your bona fides. As for
Avogadro, tell them it's about 6.02 x 10^* -- they get to know what "*" is
after you get confirmation that the (cue Dr. Evil voice) "One Million D . . ."
(sound of No. 2 clearing his throat), "er, I mean One Hundred Billion
Dollars!", is safely in your numbered account (in the Caymans). You'll
probably have to settle for somewhere between $100,000,000 and $1 billion, but
when you go to pick it up, the best way for you to be inconspicuous is to drop
the hint that you're the CEO, CFO, etc. of some multi-billion dollar American
company that has gone into bankruptcy after the discovery of massive fraud by
the corporate executives, and that you're fleeing the country ahead of a likely
indictment. Given the hundreds if not thousands of people they see every week
with the same story, it's unlikely that they'll remember anything special about
you.

Guy

[Guy Alcala]

Howard Berkowitz wrote:

> In article >, fudog50
> > wrote:
>
> > You're right, I'll give it a rest,,,there is nothing
> > classified,,,
> > like I said sensitive maybe,,just a normal reaction to this stuff due
> > to years on the pointy end during the cold war,,,try to post that
> > stuff in the 80's,,,
> > While it may be that you feel you are free to post any kind of
> > sensitive **** on here because of an ego thing, and it is totally
> > unclassified,,,just remember, our friends used to be our enemies, and
> > just as fast as it changed,,, it could change again.
> > Like I said,,,just another piece of the puzzle. Go ahead and
> > keep showing the world how CONOPS are performed in a military ATC
> > environment and the pattern of the COMMS, very smart.
> > "Military" is the key word here, and if you still feel it's ok
> > to post to the world our military Comms during a time of war, then
> > keep going, then we will see who's side you are on.
> > You seem to forget that "usenet" is the entire world, not just
> > some people here in the states you are trying to impress.
> >
>
> You may or may not be aware of what an intelligence analyst will
> actually do with such open source data. Having been in that role, were I
> assigned to characterize US military operating procedures, and found
> these posts, I'd start by asking some of the following questions:
>
> 1. Is Guy Alcala actually what he claims to be, or is this a US
> disinformation operation posting slightly-altered-from-reality
> data intended to confuse OSINT (Open Source Intelligence)?

<snip>

No, no, no! I'm the TECHINT guy, not the COMINT one. It's that Stern
character you mean (h'mm, Stern. It's probably a false flag, trying to make
us think he's being run by the Israelis. Clever plan, though; using a radio
scanner that anyone can buy from a Sporty's catalog to listen in to
unscrambled US military aviation comms -- it's ingenious. None of our
enemies would ever think of it).

Guy

[Howard Berkowitz]

In article >,
wrote:

You'll
> probably have to settle for somewhere between $100,000,000 and $1
> billion, but
> when you go to pick it up, the best way for you to be inconspicuous is to
> drop
> the hint that you're the CEO, CFO, etc. of some multi-billion dollar
> American
> company that has gone into bankruptcy after the discovery of massive
> fraud by
> the corporate executives, and that you're fleeing the country ahead of a
> likely
> indictment. Given the hundreds if not thousands of people they see every
> week
> with the same story, it's unlikely that they'll remember anything special
> about
> you.

Are you suggesting a US-Nigeria union?

[fudog50]

I suppose that my distress at following OPSEC apparently only
applies to us military folks.
I guess it is ok for civilians to violate "OPSEC' during time
of war?
(whether you agree or not, we are at war, where is your patriotism?
Why make it any easier for any potential enemy?)
Wouldn't it be horrible if the enemy used even a miniscule
part of your military A/C comms to add into a tactical strike?
It's your conscience now, can you live with it if even a
minute piece of your posting of CONOPS is used to plan an attack?
I'll give it rest,,,,just think twice about posting military
CONOPS during time of war,,,again,,you are 100% in violation of
current "OPSEC" guidelines.


On 21 May 2004 17:53:52 -0700, (miso) wrote:

>It's really sad that they are still running single engine Cessna's in
>the war on drugs given we lost two such planes in Columbia and US
>citizens are still being held hostage from one of the crashes. I
>wasn't aware the US had any of those Caravans registered in their own
>name, rather than hide behind a shell corporation like "One Leasing".
>
>As always, a nice job in mil air coms by Mr. Stern.
>
>
(AllanStern) wrote in message >...
>> Monday, 17 May 2004
>> Interesting comms today: some concerning one of the nation's newest acft,
>> the F/A-22 now at Tyndall AFB, and some about the good old days when "The Real
>> Stuff" was going on at Cape Canaveral, and I was there.
>>
>> AIR TRANSPORT 400: DC-8, Little Rock (USAF Contractor)
>> 8:58am: Lands Patrick. Later departs to Antigua, then to Ascension - both USAF
>> Eastern Test Range downrange sites.
>> [133.75]
>>
>> N4667B: CE-208B Cessna Caravan, US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air Wing,
>> Patrick AFB.
>> 9:17am: Departs Patrick.
>> 2:50pm: Lands Patrick.
>> [133.75]
>>
>> HAWK 85; F/A-18D, Beaufort MCAS VMFA(AW)-533
>> 9:44am: Transitions area to Mayport NAF
>> [269.3, 273.55]
>>
>> MAKOs 11, 12: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
>> 10:01am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
>> [292.2, 138.125]
>>
>> SHARK 21: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
>> 10:25am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
>> 10:45am: RTBs to HST.
>> [292.2, 307.1, 139.8]
>>
>> AX 186: C-130T, Andrews AFB VR-53 "Capitol Express"
>> 10:31am: Area transition. Might be C-40 acft replacing VR-53's C-130Ts, as
>> noted by Sandy in Colo recently.
>> [133.475, 132.15]
>>
>> BRONCO 01: OV-10D, US State Dept US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air
>> Wing, Patrick AFB.
>> 10:45am: Departs Patrick (flight of 2).
>> 4:12pm: Lands Patrick.
>> [133.75]
>>
>> AKULA 31: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
>> 10:52am: Single ship, arrives at Avon Park Bombing Range.
>> [292.2, 307.1]
>>
>> JOLLYs 11, 12: HH-60G Pave Hawk Helos, Patrick AFB 920RQW
>> 11:51am: Departs Patrick; approaches at KMLB, Patrick.
>> [269.375]
>>
>> PJ 610: P-3C, Whidbey Island NAS VP-69 "Totems" Sqdn
>> 12:10pm: Lands Patrick.
>> [269.375]
>>
>> HQ 475: SH-60B, Mayport NAF HSL-46 "Grandmasters" Sqdn
>> 12:30pm: Area transition.
>> [132.65]
>>
>> VDA 4813: AN-124, Volga Dnepr (Contractor)
>> 2:30pm: Departs NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Facility. This huge Ukrainian
>> transport had RONd previous night after bringing large aerospace cargo. Note
>> RON at SLF instead of CCAFS whose runway is closed for construction.
>> [128.55, 132.65, 124.8, 133.3]
>>
>> VAMPIRE 72: F/A-22, Tyndall AFB 325FW 43FS
>> 2:45pm: Touch and go at Patrick on apparent fam flight through area; remains at
>> low altitude (and therefor VHF freqs). This is my first snag of comms from an
>> F/A-22. Was a bit too low and fast for me to get into my camera window.
>> Tyndall is USAF's only F/A-22 schoolhouse; so I expect to see more of them.
>> Made a wonderful shallow swooping pass over my house off of Patrick's Rnwy 20
>> before heading south along the coast. I LIKE this plane. Looks like it loves to
>> roll.
>> [133.75, 1312.65, 132.25]
>>
>> SHARKs 21, 22, 23: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
>> 3:00pm: Strafing at Avon Park Bombing Range.
>> [292.2, 285.725, 139.8]
>>
>> MAKO 11 Flight: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
>> 3:00pm: Hitting tgts at Avon Park.
>> 3:04pm: MAKO 11 has to RTB HST with problem.
>> 3:40pm: Balance of flight RTBs.
>> [292.2, 285.725, 307.1, 269.3, 239.25, 370.9, 322.5]
>>
>> SHARK 89: C-130.
>> 3:39pm: Area transition, to waypoint Nassau.
>> [119.825]
>>
>> LIMA LIMA 38: P-3C Jacksonville NAS VP-30 "Pro's Nest" Sqdn.
>> 3:45pm: Area transition.
>> [133.475]
>>
>> ZANTOP 757: Zantop Intl (Charter), Ypsilanti MI
>> 5:27pm: Area transition.
>> Those of us who were here in the 1960s Hey-days of the space program, remember
>> the ever-present Zantop acft at Patrick AFB, supporting operations. ZANTOP 757
>> engaged in some great reminiscences about those days; this pilot flew flights
>> into Patrick in the old days, and the 133.475 ATC was controlling flights back
>> then. Nice to hear them chat and to feel the nostalgia of my days during the
>> Gemini missions and the Saturn-Apollo moon-landing flights. I used to monitor
>> the action right from the beach in those days.
>>
>> BOLT 13: KC-135R, MacDill 6AMW.
>> 10:03pm: En route to Homestead.
>> [133.475, 119.825, 132.25]
>>
>> AL STERN Satellite Beach FL (28-11N 80-36W) monitoring
>> Patrick AFB (KCOF) NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Fac (KX68)
>> Avon Park Bombing Range (KAGR) Cape Canaveral AFS (KXMR)
>> JSTARS E-8 Acft Integration Facility, Melbourne IAP (KMLB)
>> Worldwide Military HF Communications
>> Life Member: Missile, Space and Range Pioneers.
>> http://hometown.aol.com/allanstern/myhomepage/index.html (My Freqs)
>> http://hometown.aol.com/scanaddict/index.html (My Equipment)

[miso]

Security is the responsibility of the originator of the message. The
feds can make their signals secure any old time they want to. If you
monitored GHFS (or whatever they renamed it) during the active part of
the war (before POTUS landed on the carrier and declared it over), you
heard plenty of scrambled signals. [ANDVT or something like that]

Blaming a civilian with a scanner for intercepting your message is
about as responsible as telling the old lie that the dog ate your
homework. Any foreign spook who wants this info will not depend on the
net but will simply set up shop and do the job himself (or herself as
the case may be).

fudog50 > wrote in message >...
> I suppose that my distress at following OPSEC apparently only
> applies to us military folks.
> I guess it is ok for civilians to violate "OPSEC' during time
> of war?
> (whether you agree or not, we are at war, where is your patriotism?
> Why make it any easier for any potential enemy?)
> Wouldn't it be horrible if the enemy used even a miniscule
> part of your military A/C comms to add into a tactical strike?
> It's your conscience now, can you live with it if even a
> minute piece of your posting of CONOPS is used to plan an attack?
> I'll give it rest,,,,just think twice about posting military
> CONOPS during time of war,,,again,,you are 100% in violation of
> current "OPSEC" guidelines.
>
>
> On 21 May 2004 17:53:52 -0700, (miso) wrote:
>
> >It's really sad that they are still running single engine Cessna's in
> >the war on drugs given we lost two such planes in Columbia and US
> >citizens are still being held hostage from one of the crashes. I
> >wasn't aware the US had any of those Caravans registered in their own
> >name, rather than hide behind a shell corporation like "One Leasing".
> >
> >As always, a nice job in mil air coms by Mr. Stern.
> >
> >
> (AllanStern) wrote in message >...
> >> Monday, 17 May 2004
> >> Interesting comms today: some concerning one of the nation's newest acft,
> >> the F/A-22 now at Tyndall AFB, and some about the good old days when "The Real
> >> Stuff" was going on at Cape Canaveral, and I was there.
> >>
> >> AIR TRANSPORT 400: DC-8, Little Rock (USAF Contractor)
> >> 8:58am: Lands Patrick. Later departs to Antigua, then to Ascension - both USAF
> >> Eastern Test Range downrange sites.
> >> [133.75]
> >>
> >> N4667B: CE-208B Cessna Caravan, US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air Wing,
> >> Patrick AFB.
> >> 9:17am: Departs Patrick.
> >> 2:50pm: Lands Patrick.
> >> [133.75]
> >>
> >> HAWK 85; F/A-18D, Beaufort MCAS VMFA(AW)-533
> >> 9:44am: Transitions area to Mayport NAF
> >> [269.3, 273.55]
> >>
> >> MAKOs 11, 12: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> >> 10:01am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
> >> [292.2, 138.125]
> >>
> >> SHARK 21: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> >> 10:25am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
> >> 10:45am: RTBs to HST.
> >> [292.2, 307.1, 139.8]
> >>
> >> AX 186: C-130T, Andrews AFB VR-53 "Capitol Express"
> >> 10:31am: Area transition. Might be C-40 acft replacing VR-53's C-130Ts, as
> >> noted by Sandy in Colo recently.
> >> [133.475, 132.15]
> >>
> >> BRONCO 01: OV-10D, US State Dept US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air
> >> Wing, Patrick AFB.
> >> 10:45am: Departs Patrick (flight of 2).
> >> 4:12pm: Lands Patrick.
> >> [133.75]
> >>
> >> AKULA 31: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> >> 10:52am: Single ship, arrives at Avon Park Bombing Range.
> >> [292.2, 307.1]
> >>
> >> JOLLYs 11, 12: HH-60G Pave Hawk Helos, Patrick AFB 920RQW
> >> 11:51am: Departs Patrick; approaches at KMLB, Patrick.
> >> [269.375]
> >>
> >> PJ 610: P-3C, Whidbey Island NAS VP-69 "Totems" Sqdn
> >> 12:10pm: Lands Patrick.
> >> [269.375]
> >>
> >> HQ 475: SH-60B, Mayport NAF HSL-46 "Grandmasters" Sqdn
> >> 12:30pm: Area transition.
> >> [132.65]
> >>
> >> VDA 4813: AN-124, Volga Dnepr (Contractor)
> >> 2:30pm: Departs NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Facility. This huge Ukrainian
> >> transport had RONd previous night after bringing large aerospace cargo. Note
> >> RON at SLF instead of CCAFS whose runway is closed for construction.
> >> [128.55, 132.65, 124.8, 133.3]
> >>
> >> VAMPIRE 72: F/A-22, Tyndall AFB 325FW 43FS
> >> 2:45pm: Touch and go at Patrick on apparent fam flight through area; remains at
> >> low altitude (and therefor VHF freqs). This is my first snag of comms from an
> >> F/A-22. Was a bit too low and fast for me to get into my camera window.
> >> Tyndall is USAF's only F/A-22 schoolhouse; so I expect to see more of them.
> >> Made a wonderful shallow swooping pass over my house off of Patrick's Rnwy 20
> >> before heading south along the coast. I LIKE this plane. Looks like it loves to
> >> roll.
> >> [133.75, 1312.65, 132.25]
> >>
> >> SHARKs 21, 22, 23: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> >> 3:00pm: Strafing at Avon Park Bombing Range.
> >> [292.2, 285.725, 139.8]
> >>
> >> MAKO 11 Flight: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> >> 3:00pm: Hitting tgts at Avon Park.
> >> 3:04pm: MAKO 11 has to RTB HST with problem.
> >> 3:40pm: Balance of flight RTBs.
> >> [292.2, 285.725, 307.1, 269.3, 239.25, 370.9, 322.5]
> >>
> >> SHARK 89: C-130.
> >> 3:39pm: Area transition, to waypoint Nassau.
> >> [119.825]
> >>
> >> LIMA LIMA 38: P-3C Jacksonville NAS VP-30 "Pro's Nest" Sqdn.
> >> 3:45pm: Area transition.
> >> [133.475]
> >>
> >> ZANTOP 757: Zantop Intl (Charter), Ypsilanti MI
> >> 5:27pm: Area transition.
> >> Those of us who were here in the 1960s Hey-days of the space program, remember
> >> the ever-present Zantop acft at Patrick AFB, supporting operations. ZANTOP 757
> >> engaged in some great reminiscences about those days; this pilot flew flights
> >> into Patrick in the old days, and the 133.475 ATC was controlling flights back
> >> then. Nice to hear them chat and to feel the nostalgia of my days during the
> >> Gemini missions and the Saturn-Apollo moon-landing flights. I used to monitor
> >> the action right from the beach in those days.
> >>
> >> BOLT 13: KC-135R, MacDill 6AMW.
> >> 10:03pm: En route to Homestead.
> >> [133.475, 119.825, 132.25]
> >>
> >> AL STERN Satellite Beach FL (28-11N 80-36W) monitoring
> >> Patrick AFB (KCOF) NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Fac (KX68)
> >> Avon Park Bombing Range (KAGR) Cape Canaveral AFS (KXMR)
> >> JSTARS E-8 Acft Integration Facility, Melbourne IAP (KMLB)
> >> Worldwide Military HF Communications
> >> Life Member: Missile, Space and Range Pioneers.
> >> http://hometown.aol.com/allanstern/myhomepage/index.html (My Freqs)
> >> http://hometown.aol.com/scanaddict/index.html (My Equipment)

[Robey Price]

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, miso
confessed the following:

>Security is the responsibility of the originator of the message.

"Shack!"

>Blaming a civilian with a scanner for intercepting your message is
>about as responsible as telling the old lie that the dog ate your
>homework.

To piggyback "miso" further...

It's part of that old, "Loose lips sink ships" mantra...which
"fudog50" seems to be addressing when he asked:

>> I guess it is ok for civilians to violate "OPSEC' during time
>> of war?

Clearly the answer is an emphatic, "Well, duh!" Allan's posting is
after the fact...historical if you will. IOW he's not giving out
real-time or advance intelligence. Under your concern for OPSEC how
much time must pass before it would be permissible for Allan to post?

Again "fudog50" lamented:

>> (whether you agree or not, we are at war, where is your patriotism?
>> Why make it any easier for any potential enemy?)

Wrapping the flag AKA patriotism around your argument kinda gives you
some moral high ground. By your use of patriotism, folks opposed to
aspects of the Patriot Act or GWB/Cheney/Rove/Rumsfeld are
un-patriotic.

>> Wouldn't it be horrible if the enemy used even a miniscule
>> part of your military A/C comms to add into a tactical strike?

Awww come on now "fudog50" now you're just pandering. Put your
thinking cap on and contemplate probable targets and tactics. Think
those islamist ****s are going to go for a "fat juicy" civilian
airliner or an agile, mobile, and hostile military target?

Juvat

[Howard Berkowitz]

In article >, fudog50
> wrote:

> I suppose that my distress at following OPSEC apparently only
> applies to us military folks.

There is a school of thought that says OPSEC means never say anything
about anything. This is particularly true at the tactical level. At the
operational and strategic levels, the say-nothing policy neither works
in a democratic society, nor even necessarily helps military operations.

I can point to any number of military fiascoes -- Pearl Harbor, Desert
One -- where overemphasis on security inside the military led to
disaster, because people who needed a full picture didn't have it. Even
with properly classified data, the balance between overclassification
and real security is a constant juggling act.

Realistically, to make substantial use of open source material, one has
to have a significant analytic capability. Esepcially when dealing with
a free society, the amount of data often provides its own security -- it
overwhelms the analysts. fUSSR intelligence personnel have stated quite
often that one of the reason the fUSSR depended on spies rather than
open-source is that there was too much open source, and also they never
knew when open source might be disinformation or cover.

In a previous post, I gave some examples of what a competent analyst
would do variously if he were considering using this data, and, indeed,
whether an analyst might re-task collection guidance to provide the data
through different means. I would be interested in your specific
responses to these specific points on the value of the data in question,
rather than lectures on patriotism.

> I guess it is ok for civilians to violate "OPSEC' during time
> of war?
> (whether you agree or not, we are at war, where is your patriotism?
> Why make it any easier for any potential enemy?)
> Wouldn't it be horrible if the enemy used even a miniscule
> part of your military A/C comms to add into a tactical strike?

By that logic, no information about anything, including the behavior of
national leaders, should ever be made available. As I say, there is a
balance.

> It's your conscience now, can you live with it if even a
> minute piece of your posting of CONOPS is used to plan an attack?

EVERYTHING in counterintelligence planning is a balancing act. In
military operational planning, there has to be a good deal of staff
support, and willingness to listen to the intelligence people, before
lots of open source becomes relevant. I don't think EVERYONE in Iraqi
intelligence was incompetent, but Saddam wanted to hear what fit his
preconceptions. I would seriously question how much open source
intelligence is done by terrorists. I would especially doubt they are
likely to have the kind of analyst that stays concerned with following
US air operational technique over a long period.

The US and USSR did, as did some other powers -- but when resources are
limited, he who tries to track everything quickly becomes overwhelmed.
Traditionally, the glory jobs in intelligence are in collection, not
analysis, which led to situations such as an audit during Viet Nam,
showing that DIA was about 400 file drawers behind in looking at
collection reports, and it still kept coming.

> I'll give it rest,,,,just think twice about posting military
> CONOPS during time of war,,,again,,you are 100% in violation of
> current "OPSEC" guidelines.
>

[fudog50]

Miso,
It's not the intercepting of the message that worries me, no
problem there.
It's what is then done with it that disturbs me,,,

By the way Advanced Narrow Band Digital Voice Terminal in
itself is not scrambled, just a means of SATCOM. There are a few
systems used by us, including DAMA, which includes wideband, but the
associated crypto gear is what "scrambles" it.

How do you know how a foreign spook will get his info? Our
current enemy (terrorists) might get it anywhere.

This is just another piece of the puzzle, and under OPSEC
guidelines, is just wrong. (read up on OPSEC procedures then tell me
how irresponsible I am)

On 22 May 2004 05:07:10 -0700, (miso) wrote:

>Security is the responsibility of the originator of the message. The
>feds can make their signals secure any old time they want to. If you
>monitored GHFS (or whatever they renamed it) during the active part of
>the war (before POTUS landed on the carrier and declared it over), you
>heard plenty of scrambled signals. [ANDVT or something like that]
>
>Blaming a civilian with a scanner for intercepting your message is
>about as responsible as telling the old lie that the dog ate your
>homework. Any foreign spook who wants this info will not depend on the
>net but will simply set up shop and do the job himself (or herself as
>the case may be).
>
>fudog50 > wrote in message >...
>> I suppose that my distress at following OPSEC apparently only
>> applies to us military folks.
>> I guess it is ok for civilians to violate "OPSEC' during time
>> of war?
>> (whether you agree or not, we are at war, where is your patriotism?
>> Why make it any easier for any potential enemy?)
>> Wouldn't it be horrible if the enemy used even a miniscule
>> part of your military A/C comms to add into a tactical strike?
>> It's your conscience now, can you live with it if even a
>> minute piece of your posting of CONOPS is used to plan an attack?
>> I'll give it rest,,,,just think twice about posting military
>> CONOPS during time of war,,,again,,you are 100% in violation of
>> current "OPSEC" guidelines.
>>
>>
>> On 21 May 2004 17:53:52 -0700, (miso) wrote:
>>
>> >It's really sad that they are still running single engine Cessna's in
>> >the war on drugs given we lost two such planes in Columbia and US
>> >citizens are still being held hostage from one of the crashes. I
>> >wasn't aware the US had any of those Caravans registered in their own
>> >name, rather than hide behind a shell corporation like "One Leasing".
>> >
>> >As always, a nice job in mil air coms by Mr. Stern.
>> >
>> >
>> (AllanStern) wrote in message >...
>> >> Monday, 17 May 2004
>> >> Interesting comms today: some concerning one of the nation's newest acft,
>> >> the F/A-22 now at Tyndall AFB, and some about the good old days when "The Real
>> >> Stuff" was going on at Cape Canaveral, and I was there.
>> >>
>> >> AIR TRANSPORT 400: DC-8, Little Rock (USAF Contractor)
>> >> 8:58am: Lands Patrick. Later departs to Antigua, then to Ascension - both USAF
>> >> Eastern Test Range downrange sites.
>> >> [133.75]
>> >>
>> >> N4667B: CE-208B Cessna Caravan, US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air Wing,
>> >> Patrick AFB.
>> >> 9:17am: Departs Patrick.
>> >> 2:50pm: Lands Patrick.
>> >> [133.75]
>> >>
>> >> HAWK 85; F/A-18D, Beaufort MCAS VMFA(AW)-533
>> >> 9:44am: Transitions area to Mayport NAF
>> >> [269.3, 273.55]
>> >>
>> >> MAKOs 11, 12: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
>> >> 10:01am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
>> >> [292.2, 138.125]
>> >>
>> >> SHARK 21: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
>> >> 10:25am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
>> >> 10:45am: RTBs to HST.
>> >> [292.2, 307.1, 139.8]
>> >>
>> >> AX 186: C-130T, Andrews AFB VR-53 "Capitol Express"
>> >> 10:31am: Area transition. Might be C-40 acft replacing VR-53's C-130Ts, as
>> >> noted by Sandy in Colo recently.
>> >> [133.475, 132.15]
>> >>
>> >> BRONCO 01: OV-10D, US State Dept US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air
>> >> Wing, Patrick AFB.
>> >> 10:45am: Departs Patrick (flight of 2).
>> >> 4:12pm: Lands Patrick.
>> >> [133.75]
>> >>
>> >> AKULA 31: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
>> >> 10:52am: Single ship, arrives at Avon Park Bombing Range.
>> >> [292.2, 307.1]
>> >>
>> >> JOLLYs 11, 12: HH-60G Pave Hawk Helos, Patrick AFB 920RQW
>> >> 11:51am: Departs Patrick; approaches at KMLB, Patrick.
>> >> [269.375]
>> >>
>> >> PJ 610: P-3C, Whidbey Island NAS VP-69 "Totems" Sqdn
>> >> 12:10pm: Lands Patrick.
>> >> [269.375]
>> >>
>> >> HQ 475: SH-60B, Mayport NAF HSL-46 "Grandmasters" Sqdn
>> >> 12:30pm: Area transition.
>> >> [132.65]
>> >>
>> >> VDA 4813: AN-124, Volga Dnepr (Contractor)
>> >> 2:30pm: Departs NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Facility. This huge Ukrainian
>> >> transport had RONd previous night after bringing large aerospace cargo. Note
>> >> RON at SLF instead of CCAFS whose runway is closed for construction.
>> >> [128.55, 132.65, 124.8, 133.3]
>> >>
>> >> VAMPIRE 72: F/A-22, Tyndall AFB 325FW 43FS
>> >> 2:45pm: Touch and go at Patrick on apparent fam flight through area; remains at
>> >> low altitude (and therefor VHF freqs). This is my first snag of comms from an
>> >> F/A-22. Was a bit too low and fast for me to get into my camera window.
>> >> Tyndall is USAF's only F/A-22 schoolhouse; so I expect to see more of them.
>> >> Made a wonderful shallow swooping pass over my house off of Patrick's Rnwy 20
>> >> before heading south along the coast. I LIKE this plane. Looks like it loves to
>> >> roll.
>> >> [133.75, 1312.65, 132.25]
>> >>
>> >> SHARKs 21, 22, 23: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
>> >> 3:00pm: Strafing at Avon Park Bombing Range.
>> >> [292.2, 285.725, 139.8]
>> >>
>> >> MAKO 11 Flight: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
>> >> 3:00pm: Hitting tgts at Avon Park.
>> >> 3:04pm: MAKO 11 has to RTB HST with problem.
>> >> 3:40pm: Balance of flight RTBs.
>> >> [292.2, 285.725, 307.1, 269.3, 239.25, 370.9, 322.5]
>> >>
>> >> SHARK 89: C-130.
>> >> 3:39pm: Area transition, to waypoint Nassau.
>> >> [119.825]
>> >>
>> >> LIMA LIMA 38: P-3C Jacksonville NAS VP-30 "Pro's Nest" Sqdn.
>> >> 3:45pm: Area transition.
>> >> [133.475]
>> >>
>> >> ZANTOP 757: Zantop Intl (Charter), Ypsilanti MI
>> >> 5:27pm: Area transition.
>> >> Those of us who were here in the 1960s Hey-days of the space program, remember
>> >> the ever-present Zantop acft at Patrick AFB, supporting operations. ZANTOP 757
>> >> engaged in some great reminiscences about those days; this pilot flew flights
>> >> into Patrick in the old days, and the 133.475 ATC was controlling flights back
>> >> then. Nice to hear them chat and to feel the nostalgia of my days during the
>> >> Gemini missions and the Saturn-Apollo moon-landing flights. I used to monitor
>> >> the action right from the beach in those days.
>> >>
>> >> BOLT 13: KC-135R, MacDill 6AMW.
>> >> 10:03pm: En route to Homestead.
>> >> [133.475, 119.825, 132.25]
>> >>
>> >> AL STERN Satellite Beach FL (28-11N 80-36W) monitoring
>> >> Patrick AFB (KCOF) NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Fac (KX68)
>> >> Avon Park Bombing Range (KAGR) Cape Canaveral AFS (KXMR)
>> >> JSTARS E-8 Acft Integration Facility, Melbourne IAP (KMLB)
>> >> Worldwide Military HF Communications
>> >> Life Member: Missile, Space and Range Pioneers.
>> >> http://hometown.aol.com/allanstern/myhomepage/index.html (My Freqs)
>> >> http://hometown.aol.com/scanaddict/index.html (My Equipment)

[fudog50]

I dunno Juvat, you tell me, what is their next strike?

It's not worth even arguing anymore, people are gonna do what they
want because they have inflated ego's and because they can.

And most people that have never been on the pointy end will ever
understand.

I give up, keep posting MiLCOMS in Florida and y'aLL keep supporting
him, have fun.

On Sat, 22 May 2004 15:37:37 GMT, Robey Price >
wrote:

>After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, miso
>confessed the following:
>
>>Security is the responsibility of the originator of the message.
>
>"Shack!"
>
>>Blaming a civilian with a scanner for intercepting your message is
>>about as responsible as telling the old lie that the dog ate your
>>homework.
>
>To piggyback "miso" further...
>
>It's part of that old, "Loose lips sink ships" mantra...which
>"fudog50" seems to be addressing when he asked:
>
>>> I guess it is ok for civilians to violate "OPSEC' during time
>>> of war?
>
>Clearly the answer is an emphatic, "Well, duh!" Allan's posting is
>after the fact...historical if you will. IOW he's not giving out
>real-time or advance intelligence. Under your concern for OPSEC how
>much time must pass before it would be permissible for Allan to post?
>
>Again "fudog50" lamented:
>
>>> (whether you agree or not, we are at war, where is your patriotism?
>>> Why make it any easier for any potential enemy?)
>
>Wrapping the flag AKA patriotism around your argument kinda gives you
>some moral high ground. By your use of patriotism, folks opposed to
>aspects of the Patriot Act or GWB/Cheney/Rove/Rumsfeld are
>un-patriotic.
>
>>> Wouldn't it be horrible if the enemy used even a miniscule
>>> part of your military A/C comms to add into a tactical strike?
>
>Awww come on now "fudog50" now you're just pandering. Put your
>thinking cap on and contemplate probable targets and tactics. Think
>those islamist ****s are going to go for a "fat juicy" civilian
>airliner or an agile, mobile, and hostile military target?
>
>Juvat

[fudog50]

Here is one for starters, I'm sure you will get all defensive about
it, I don't make the guidelines, but here are some of them.

http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/a021202b.html

On 18 May 2004 03:17:15 GMT, (AllanStern) wrote:

> Monday, 17 May 2004
> Interesting comms today: some concerning one of the nation's newest acft,
>the F/A-22 now at Tyndall AFB, and some about the good old days when "The Real
>Stuff" was going on at Cape Canaveral, and I was there.
>
>AIR TRANSPORT 400: DC-8, Little Rock (USAF Contractor)
>8:58am: Lands Patrick. Later departs to Antigua, then to Ascension - both USAF
>Eastern Test Range downrange sites.
>[133.75]
>
>N4667B: CE-208B Cessna Caravan, US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air Wing,
>Patrick AFB.
>9:17am: Departs Patrick.
>2:50pm: Lands Patrick.
>[133.75]
>
>HAWK 85; F/A-18D, Beaufort MCAS VMFA(AW)-533
>9:44am: Transitions area to Mayport NAF
>[269.3, 273.55]
>
>MAKOs 11, 12: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
>10:01am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
>[292.2, 138.125]
>
>SHARK 21: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
>10:25am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
>10:45am: RTBs to HST.
>[292.2, 307.1, 139.8]
>
>AX 186: C-130T, Andrews AFB VR-53 "Capitol Express"
>10:31am: Area transition. Might be C-40 acft replacing VR-53's C-130Ts, as
>noted by Sandy in Colo recently.
>[133.475, 132.15]
>
>BRONCO 01: OV-10D, US State Dept US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air
>Wing, Patrick AFB.
>10:45am: Departs Patrick (flight of 2).
>4:12pm: Lands Patrick.
>[133.75]
>
>AKULA 31: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
>10:52am: Single ship, arrives at Avon Park Bombing Range.
>[292.2, 307.1]
>
>JOLLYs 11, 12: HH-60G Pave Hawk Helos, Patrick AFB 920RQW
>11:51am: Departs Patrick; approaches at KMLB, Patrick.
>[269.375]
>
>PJ 610: P-3C, Whidbey Island NAS VP-69 "Totems" Sqdn
>12:10pm: Lands Patrick.
>[269.375]
>
>HQ 475: SH-60B, Mayport NAF HSL-46 "Grandmasters" Sqdn
>12:30pm: Area transition.
>[132.65]
>
>VDA 4813: AN-124, Volga Dnepr (Contractor)
>2:30pm: Departs NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Facility. This huge Ukrainian
>transport had RONd previous night after bringing large aerospace cargo. Note
>RON at SLF instead of CCAFS whose runway is closed for construction.
>[128.55, 132.65, 124.8, 133.3]
>
>VAMPIRE 72: F/A-22, Tyndall AFB 325FW 43FS
>2:45pm: Touch and go at Patrick on apparent fam flight through area; remains at
>low altitude (and therefor VHF freqs). This is my first snag of comms from an
>F/A-22. Was a bit too low and fast for me to get into my camera window.
>Tyndall is USAF's only F/A-22 schoolhouse; so I expect to see more of them.
>Made a wonderful shallow swooping pass over my house off of Patrick's Rnwy 20
>before heading south along the coast. I LIKE this plane. Looks like it loves to
>roll.
>[133.75, 1312.65, 132.25]
>
>SHARKs 21, 22, 23: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
>3:00pm: Strafing at Avon Park Bombing Range.
>[292.2, 285.725, 139.8]
>
>MAKO 11 Flight: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
>3:00pm: Hitting tgts at Avon Park.
>3:04pm: MAKO 11 has to RTB HST with problem.
>3:40pm: Balance of flight RTBs.
>[292.2, 285.725, 307.1, 269.3, 239.25, 370.9, 322.5]
>
>SHARK 89: C-130.
>3:39pm: Area transition, to waypoint Nassau.
>[119.825]
>
>LIMA LIMA 38: P-3C Jacksonville NAS VP-30 "Pro's Nest" Sqdn.
>3:45pm: Area transition.
>[133.475]
>
>ZANTOP 757: Zantop Intl (Charter), Ypsilanti MI
>5:27pm: Area transition.
>Those of us who were here in the 1960s Hey-days of the space program, remember
>the ever-present Zantop acft at Patrick AFB, supporting operations. ZANTOP 757
>engaged in some great reminiscences about those days; this pilot flew flights
>into Patrick in the old days, and the 133.475 ATC was controlling flights back
>then. Nice to hear them chat and to feel the nostalgia of my days during the
>Gemini missions and the Saturn-Apollo moon-landing flights. I used to monitor
>the action right from the beach in those days.
>
>BOLT 13: KC-135R, MacDill 6AMW.
>10:03pm: En route to Homestead.
>[133.475, 119.825, 132.25]
>
>AL STERN Satellite Beach FL (28-11N 80-36W) monitoring
> Patrick AFB (KCOF)  NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Fac (KX68)
> Avon Park Bombing Range (KAGR)  Cape Canaveral AFS (KXMR)
> JSTARS E-8 Acft Integration Facility, Melbourne IAP (KMLB)
> Worldwide Military HF Communications
> Life Member: Missile, Space and Range Pioneers.
> http://hometown.aol.com/allanstern/myhomepage/index.html (My Freqs)
> http://hometown.aol.com/scanaddict/index.html (My Equipment)

[Robey Price]

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, fudog50
confessed the following:

>I dunno Juvat, you tell me, what is their next strike?

Hmmmm, how 'bout Athens Greece? Maybe Boston MA...

>It's not worth even arguing anymore, people are gonna do what they
>want because they have inflated ego's and because they can.

Respectfully, ego has ZERO to do with the question or the answer. You
assumed that Allan's posting of his log of military callsigns (and
aircraft type) is accurate. You also conclude this information is a
piece of the puzzle that may lead to a terrorist strike on something
(you don't speculate on what).

Allan's hobby is hardly the lynchpin in some possible terrorist
strike.

>And most people that have never been on the pointy end will ever
>understand.

Ummm, are you telling us you're a SEAL? In a previous life I had the
honor of strapping a green & tan/green & gray twin engine J-79 powered
and a gray single engine F-100 powered aerospace training device to my
keester. Today I drive around on the pointy end of a twin engine 757.

Personally I hope the islamist ****s target the military and not
civilians...that's what the military gets paid for, plus the military
gets to shoot back. But you're right in a sense, I don't understand
any of your "hand wringing or the wailing and knashing of teeth," WRT
to Allan's posts.

Juvat

[Robey Price]

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, fudog50
confessed the following:

>Miso,
> It's not the intercepting of the message that worries me, no
>problem there.
> It's what is then done with it that disturbs me,,,
>
> By the way Advanced Narrow Band Digital Voice Terminal in
>itself is not scrambled, just a means of SATCOM. There are a few
>systems used by us, including DAMA, which includes wideband, but the
>associated crypto gear is what "scrambles" it.

This is too funny to pass up. Ummm, were you the guy lamenting about
posting information about our techniques? And here you've decided that
this does NOT violate OPSEC...this is a hoot!

> How do you know how a foreign spook will get his info? Our
>current enemy (terrorists) might get it anywhere.

Hmmm if I were an spook maybe I'd challenge your knowledge and say
"you don't know what the f*ck you're talking about," and hope your ego
gets in the way and you share a little more of your information,
nothing classified mind you. Too funny.

> This is just another piece of the puzzle, and under OPSEC
>guidelines, is just wrong. (read up on OPSEC procedures then tell me
>how irresponsible I am)

LOL...clearly the information you shared has no value because you
would never violate OPSEC protocols.

Juvat

[Robey Price]

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, fudog50
confessed the following:

>Here is one for starters, I'm sure you will get all defensive about
>it, I don't make the guidelines, but here are some of them.

You realize of course that FOUR times in this thread. YOU have
reposted information that you feel is violating OPSEC.

So in a sense you PERSONALLY have put those individuals at
risk...please report yourself Jethro Gibbs (Mark Harmon) and the rest
of the guys on Navy NCIS.

Juvat

[Howard Berkowitz]

In article >, fudog50
> wrote:

> Here is one for starters, I'm sure you will get all defensive about
> it, I don't make the guidelines, but here are some of them.
>
> http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/a021202b.html
>

That is a Department of Energy site, and perhaps it might be more
on-point to have DoD Instructions, Air Force Regulations, etc. Yet,
here is a partial quote:

> Assessment of Risks
>
>
> Vulnerabilities and specific threats must be matched. Where the
> vulnerabilities are great and the adversary threat is evident, the risk
> of adversary exploitation is expected. Therefore, a high priority for
> protection needs to be assigned and corrective action taken. Where the
> vulnerability is slight and the adversary has a marginal collection
> capability, the priority should be low.
>
>
> Application of the Countermeasures
>
>
> Countermeasures need to be developed that eliminate the vulnerabilities,
> threats, or utility of the information to the adversaries. The possible
> countermeasures should include alternatives that may vary in
> effectiveness, feasibility, and cost. Countermeasures may include
> anything that is likely to work in a particular situation. The decision
> of whether to implement countermeasures must be based on cost/benefit
> analysis and an evaluation of the overall program objectives.
>

In other words, countermeasures such as remaining completely silent are
meant to be applied when a risk can be characterized. In an earlier
posts, I described, from the standpoint of how an analyst would use this
material, that the risk is quite low.

[miso]

I took a look at the article. The deal here is Al or civilians in
general don't know anything in the sense that they don't know when
that plane will be arriving or dispatched. A guy with a scanner only
has knowledge of the present AND nobody in the military gave him that
knowledge. The assumption is whatever Al is doing can be done by the
enemy, though probably not as good of a job as Al does.

fudog50 > wrote in message >...
> Here is one for starters, I'm sure you will get all defensive about
> it, I don't make the guidelines, but here are some of them.
>
> http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/a021202b.html
>
> On 18 May 2004 03:17:15 GMT, (AllanStern) wrote:
>
> > Monday, 17 May 2004
> > Interesting comms today: some concerning one of the nation's newest acft,
> >the F/A-22 now at Tyndall AFB, and some about the good old days when "The Real
> >Stuff" was going on at Cape Canaveral, and I was there.
> >
> >AIR TRANSPORT 400: DC-8, Little Rock (USAF Contractor)
> >8:58am: Lands Patrick. Later departs to Antigua, then to Ascension - both USAF
> >Eastern Test Range downrange sites.
> >[133.75]
> >
> >N4667B: CE-208B Cessna Caravan, US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air Wing,
> >Patrick AFB.
> >9:17am: Departs Patrick.
> >2:50pm: Lands Patrick.
> >[133.75]
> >
> >HAWK 85; F/A-18D, Beaufort MCAS VMFA(AW)-533
> >9:44am: Transitions area to Mayport NAF
> >[269.3, 273.55]
> >
> >MAKOs 11, 12: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> >10:01am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
> >[292.2, 138.125]
> >
> >SHARK 21: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> >10:25am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
> >10:45am: RTBs to HST.
> >[292.2, 307.1, 139.8]
> >
> >AX 186: C-130T, Andrews AFB VR-53 "Capitol Express"
> >10:31am: Area transition. Might be C-40 acft replacing VR-53's C-130Ts, as
> >noted by Sandy in Colo recently.
> >[133.475, 132.15]
> >
> >BRONCO 01: OV-10D, US State Dept US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air
> >Wing, Patrick AFB.
> >10:45am: Departs Patrick (flight of 2).
> >4:12pm: Lands Patrick.
> >[133.75]
> >
> >AKULA 31: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> >10:52am: Single ship, arrives at Avon Park Bombing Range.
> >[292.2, 307.1]
> >
> >JOLLYs 11, 12: HH-60G Pave Hawk Helos, Patrick AFB 920RQW
> >11:51am: Departs Patrick; approaches at KMLB, Patrick.
> >[269.375]
> >
> >PJ 610: P-3C, Whidbey Island NAS VP-69 "Totems" Sqdn
> >12:10pm: Lands Patrick.
> >[269.375]
> >
> >HQ 475: SH-60B, Mayport NAF HSL-46 "Grandmasters" Sqdn
> >12:30pm: Area transition.
> >[132.65]
> >
> >VDA 4813: AN-124, Volga Dnepr (Contractor)
> >2:30pm: Departs NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Facility. This huge Ukrainian
> >transport had RONd previous night after bringing large aerospace cargo. Note
> >RON at SLF instead of CCAFS whose runway is closed for construction.
> >[128.55, 132.65, 124.8, 133.3]
> >
> >VAMPIRE 72: F/A-22, Tyndall AFB 325FW 43FS
> >2:45pm: Touch and go at Patrick on apparent fam flight through area; remains at
> >low altitude (and therefor VHF freqs). This is my first snag of comms from an
> >F/A-22. Was a bit too low and fast for me to get into my camera window.
> >Tyndall is USAF's only F/A-22 schoolhouse; so I expect to see more of them.
> >Made a wonderful shallow swooping pass over my house off of Patrick's Rnwy 20
> >before heading south along the coast. I LIKE this plane. Looks like it loves to
> >roll.
> >[133.75, 1312.65, 132.25]
> >
> >SHARKs 21, 22, 23: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> >3:00pm: Strafing at Avon Park Bombing Range.
> >[292.2, 285.725, 139.8]
> >
> >MAKO 11 Flight: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> >3:00pm: Hitting tgts at Avon Park.
> >3:04pm: MAKO 11 has to RTB HST with problem.
> >3:40pm: Balance of flight RTBs.
> >[292.2, 285.725, 307.1, 269.3, 239.25, 370.9, 322.5]
> >
> >SHARK 89: C-130.
> >3:39pm: Area transition, to waypoint Nassau.
> >[119.825]
> >
> >LIMA LIMA 38: P-3C Jacksonville NAS VP-30 "Pro's Nest" Sqdn.
> >3:45pm: Area transition.
> >[133.475]
> >
> >ZANTOP 757: Zantop Intl (Charter), Ypsilanti MI
> >5:27pm: Area transition.
> >Those of us who were here in the 1960s Hey-days of the space program, remember
> >the ever-present Zantop acft at Patrick AFB, supporting operations. ZANTOP 757
> >engaged in some great reminiscences about those days; this pilot flew flights
> >into Patrick in the old days, and the 133.475 ATC was controlling flights back
> >then. Nice to hear them chat and to feel the nostalgia of my days during the
> >Gemini missions and the Saturn-Apollo moon-landing flights. I used to monitor
> >the action right from the beach in those days.
> >
> >BOLT 13: KC-135R, MacDill 6AMW.
> >10:03pm: En route to Homestead.
> >[133.475, 119.825, 132.25]
> >
> >AL STERN Satellite Beach FL (28-11N 80-36W) monitoring
> > Patrick AFB (KCOF) NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Fac (KX68)
> > Avon Park Bombing Range (KAGR) Cape Canaveral AFS (KXMR)
> > JSTARS E-8 Acft Integration Facility, Melbourne IAP (KMLB)
> > Worldwide Military HF Communications
> > Life Member: Missile, Space and Range Pioneers.
> > http://hometown.aol.com/allanstern/myhomepage/index.html (My Freqs)
> > http://hometown.aol.com/scanaddict/index.html (My Equipment)

[fudog50]

Get off the fence Robey.


On Sun, 23 May 2004 10:47:23 GMT, Robey Price >
wrote:

>After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, fudog50
>confessed the following:
>
>>I dunno Juvat, you tell me, what is their next strike?
>
>Hmmmm, how 'bout Athens Greece? Maybe Boston MA...
>
>>It's not worth even arguing anymore, people are gonna do what they
>>want because they have inflated ego's and because they can.
>
>Respectfully, ego has ZERO to do with the question or the answer. You
>assumed that Allan's posting of his log of military callsigns (and
>aircraft type) is accurate. You also conclude this information is a
>piece of the puzzle that may lead to a terrorist strike on something
>(you don't speculate on what).
>
>Allan's hobby is hardly the lynchpin in some possible terrorist
>strike.
>
>>And most people that have never been on the pointy end will ever
>>understand.
>
>Ummm, are you telling us you're a SEAL? In a previous life I had the
>honor of strapping a green & tan/green & gray twin engine J-79 powered
>and a gray single engine F-100 powered aerospace training device to my
>keester. Today I drive around on the pointy end of a twin engine 757.
>
>Personally I hope the islamist ****s target the military and not
>civilians...that's what the military gets paid for, plus the military
>gets to shoot back. But you're right in a sense, I don't understand
>any of your "hand wringing or the wailing and knashing of teeth," WRT
>to Allan's posts.
>
>Juvat
>

[fudog50]

You have no idea what you are talking about Robey, go back to
sleep,,,,yawn


On Sun, 23 May 2004 11:02:03 GMT, Robey Price >
wrote:

>After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, fudog50
>confessed the following:
>
>>Miso,
>> It's not the intercepting of the message that worries me, no
>>problem there.
>> It's what is then done with it that disturbs me,,,
>>
>> By the way Advanced Narrow Band Digital Voice Terminal in
>>itself is not scrambled, just a means of SATCOM. There are a few
>>systems used by us, including DAMA, which includes wideband, but the
>>associated crypto gear is what "scrambles" it.
>
>This is too funny to pass up. Ummm, were you the guy lamenting about
>posting information about our techniques? And here you've decided that
>this does NOT violate OPSEC...this is a hoot!
>
>> How do you know how a foreign spook will get his info? Our
>>current enemy (terrorists) might get it anywhere.
>
>Hmmm if I were an spook maybe I'd challenge your knowledge and say
>"you don't know what the f*ck you're talking about," and hope your ego
>gets in the way and you share a little more of your information,
>nothing classified mind you. Too funny.
>
>> This is just another piece of the puzzle, and under OPSEC
>>guidelines, is just wrong. (read up on OPSEC procedures then tell me
>>how irresponsible I am)
>
>LOL...clearly the information you shared has no value because you
>would never violate OPSEC protocols.
>
>Juvat
>

[fudog50]

I stand that it ain't right,,,,no matter how you wanna debate it,,,


keep going,,,I got all day...


On 18 May 2004 03:17:15 GMT, (AllanStern) wrote:

> Monday, 17 May 2004
> Interesting comms today: some concerning one of the nation's newest acft,
>the F/A-22 now at Tyndall AFB, and some about the good old days when "The Real
>Stuff" was going on at Cape Canaveral, and I was there.
>
>AIR TRANSPORT 400: DC-8, Little Rock (USAF Contractor)
>8:58am: Lands Patrick. Later departs to Antigua, then to Ascension - both USAF
>Eastern Test Range downrange sites.
>[133.75]
>
>N4667B: CE-208B Cessna Caravan, US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air Wing,
>Patrick AFB.
>9:17am: Departs Patrick.
>2:50pm: Lands Patrick.
>[133.75]
>
>HAWK 85; F/A-18D, Beaufort MCAS VMFA(AW)-533
>9:44am: Transitions area to Mayport NAF
>[269.3, 273.55]
>
>MAKOs 11, 12: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
>10:01am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
>[292.2, 138.125]
>
>SHARK 21: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
>10:25am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
>10:45am: RTBs to HST.
>[292.2, 307.1, 139.8]
>
>AX 186: C-130T, Andrews AFB VR-53 "Capitol Express"
>10:31am: Area transition. Might be C-40 acft replacing VR-53's C-130Ts, as
>noted by Sandy in Colo recently.
>[133.475, 132.15]
>
>BRONCO 01: OV-10D, US State Dept US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air
>Wing, Patrick AFB.
>10:45am: Departs Patrick (flight of 2).
>4:12pm: Lands Patrick.
>[133.75]
>
>AKULA 31: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
>10:52am: Single ship, arrives at Avon Park Bombing Range.
>[292.2, 307.1]
>
>JOLLYs 11, 12: HH-60G Pave Hawk Helos, Patrick AFB 920RQW
>11:51am: Departs Patrick; approaches at KMLB, Patrick.
>[269.375]
>
>PJ 610: P-3C, Whidbey Island NAS VP-69 "Totems" Sqdn
>12:10pm: Lands Patrick.
>[269.375]
>
>HQ 475: SH-60B, Mayport NAF HSL-46 "Grandmasters" Sqdn
>12:30pm: Area transition.
>[132.65]
>
>VDA 4813: AN-124, Volga Dnepr (Contractor)
>2:30pm: Departs NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Facility. This huge Ukrainian
>transport had RONd previous night after bringing large aerospace cargo. Note
>RON at SLF instead of CCAFS whose runway is closed for construction.
>[128.55, 132.65, 124.8, 133.3]
>
>VAMPIRE 72: F/A-22, Tyndall AFB 325FW 43FS
>2:45pm: Touch and go at Patrick on apparent fam flight through area; remains at
>low altitude (and therefor VHF freqs). This is my first snag of comms from an
>F/A-22. Was a bit too low and fast for me to get into my camera window.
>Tyndall is USAF's only F/A-22 schoolhouse; so I expect to see more of them.
>Made a wonderful shallow swooping pass over my house off of Patrick's Rnwy 20
>before heading south along the coast. I LIKE this plane. Looks like it loves to
>roll.
>[133.75, 1312.65, 132.25]
>
>SHARKs 21, 22, 23: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
>3:00pm: Strafing at Avon Park Bombing Range.
>[292.2, 285.725, 139.8]
>
>MAKO 11 Flight: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
>3:00pm: Hitting tgts at Avon Park.
>3:04pm: MAKO 11 has to RTB HST with problem.
>3:40pm: Balance of flight RTBs.
>[292.2, 285.725, 307.1, 269.3, 239.25, 370.9, 322.5]
>
>SHARK 89: C-130.
>3:39pm: Area transition, to waypoint Nassau.
>[119.825]
>
>LIMA LIMA 38: P-3C Jacksonville NAS VP-30 "Pro's Nest" Sqdn.
>3:45pm: Area transition.
>[133.475]
>
>ZANTOP 757: Zantop Intl (Charter), Ypsilanti MI
>5:27pm: Area transition.
>Those of us who were here in the 1960s Hey-days of the space program, remember
>the ever-present Zantop acft at Patrick AFB, supporting operations. ZANTOP 757
>engaged in some great reminiscences about those days; this pilot flew flights
>into Patrick in the old days, and the 133.475 ATC was controlling flights back
>then. Nice to hear them chat and to feel the nostalgia of my days during the
>Gemini missions and the Saturn-Apollo moon-landing flights. I used to monitor
>the action right from the beach in those days.
>
>BOLT 13: KC-135R, MacDill 6AMW.
>10:03pm: En route to Homestead.
>[133.475, 119.825, 132.25]
>
>AL STERN Satellite Beach FL (28-11N 80-36W) monitoring
> Patrick AFB (KCOF)  NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Fac (KX68)
> Avon Park Bombing Range (KAGR)  Cape Canaveral AFS (KXMR)
> JSTARS E-8 Acft Integration Facility, Melbourne IAP (KMLB)
> Worldwide Military HF Communications
> Life Member: Missile, Space and Range Pioneers.
> http://hometown.aol.com/allanstern/myhomepage/index.html (My Freqs)
> http://hometown.aol.com/scanaddict/index.html (My Equipment)

[Howard Berkowitz]

In article >, fudog50
> wrote:

> I stand that it ain't right,,,,no matter how you wanna debate it,,,
>
>
> keep going,,,I got all day...
>
>
I take that to mean you won't debate it, you won't examine any
interpretation to the contrary including excerpts from the actual
document YOU cited as authoritative, and, in general, prefer the
position of your mind is made up.

[Robey Price]

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, fudog50
confessed the following:

>Get off the fence Robey.

Pretty sure I'm not on the fence; my position is pretty clear. Allan's
posts are not a threat, and they are not against the law. You're
pretty much ****in' in the wind.

Juvat

[Robey Price]

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, fudog50
confessed the following:

>You have no idea what you are talking about Robey, go back to
>sleep,,,,yawn

Previously posted by this same fudog50:

>>>I'll give it rest,,,,just think twice about posting military
>>>CONOPS during time of war,,,again,,you are 100% in violation of
>>>current "OPSEC" guidelines.

OK, so give it a rest...we've thought about it and conclude your are
in error.

BTW would this war be the War on Poverty, the War on Drugs, the War on
Illiteracy, or the war on terror? FYI that was a rhetorical question.

Juvat

[Robey Price]

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, fudog50
confessed the following:

>I stand that it ain't right,,,,no matter how you wanna debate it,,,
>
>
>keep going,,,I got all day...

LOL Keep going? As in re-posting information that you deem in
violation of OPSEC guidelines? Too funny. I'm gonna go out on a limb
and speculate that you do not see the wonderful irony.

So if the bad guys didn't see it the first four times you reposted
information you deemed sensitive, you'll make sure they can. LOL!

You go girl!

[Klaus Gerber]

I'm looking for sites with lists of online scanner links for police,
fire, railroad, tunable scanners, EMS, or any type of emergency
service. I am also looking for live ATC, Ground control, etc...

Thanks,
Klaus
VirtualTuner.com


(miso) wrote in message >...
> I took a look at the article. The deal here is Al or civilians in
> general don't know anything in the sense that they don't know when
> that plane will be arriving or dispatched. A guy with a scanner only
> has knowledge of the present AND nobody in the military gave him that
> knowledge. The assumption is whatever Al is doing can be done by the
> enemy, though probably not as good of a job as Al does.
>
> fudog50 > wrote in message >...
> > Here is one for starters, I'm sure you will get all defensive about
> > it, I don't make the guidelines, but here are some of them.
> >
> > http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/a021202b.html
> >
> > On 18 May 2004 03:17:15 GMT, (AllanStern) wrote:
> >
> > > Monday, 17 May 2004
> > > Interesting comms today: some concerning one of the nation's newest acft,
> > >the F/A-22 now at Tyndall AFB, and some about the good old days when "The Real
> > >Stuff" was going on at Cape Canaveral, and I was there.
> > >
> > >AIR TRANSPORT 400: DC-8, Little Rock (USAF Contractor)
> > >8:58am: Lands Patrick. Later departs to Antigua, then to Ascension - both USAF
> > >Eastern Test Range downrange sites.
> > >[133.75]
> > >
> > >N4667B: CE-208B Cessna Caravan, US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air Wing,
> > >Patrick AFB.
> > >9:17am: Departs Patrick.
> > >2:50pm: Lands Patrick.
> > >[133.75]
> > >
> > >HAWK 85; F/A-18D, Beaufort MCAS VMFA(AW)-533
> > >9:44am: Transitions area to Mayport NAF
> > >[269.3, 273.55]
> > >
> > >MAKOs 11, 12: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> > >10:01am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
> > >[292.2, 138.125]
> > >
> > >SHARK 21: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> > >10:25am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
> > >10:45am: RTBs to HST.
> > >[292.2, 307.1, 139.8]
> > >
> > >AX 186: C-130T, Andrews AFB VR-53 "Capitol Express"
> > >10:31am: Area transition. Might be C-40 acft replacing VR-53's C-130Ts, as
> > >noted by Sandy in Colo recently.
> > >[133.475, 132.15]
> > >
> > >BRONCO 01: OV-10D, US State Dept US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air
> > >Wing, Patrick AFB.
> > >10:45am: Departs Patrick (flight of 2).
> > >4:12pm: Lands Patrick.
> > >[133.75]
> > >
> > >AKULA 31: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> > >10:52am: Single ship, arrives at Avon Park Bombing Range.
> > >[292.2, 307.1]
> > >
> > >JOLLYs 11, 12: HH-60G Pave Hawk Helos, Patrick AFB 920RQW
> > >11:51am: Departs Patrick; approaches at KMLB, Patrick.
> > >[269.375]
> > >
> > >PJ 610: P-3C, Whidbey Island NAS VP-69 "Totems" Sqdn
> > >12:10pm: Lands Patrick.
> > >[269.375]
> > >
> > >HQ 475: SH-60B, Mayport NAF HSL-46 "Grandmasters" Sqdn
> > >12:30pm: Area transition.
> > >[132.65]
> > >
> > >VDA 4813: AN-124, Volga Dnepr (Contractor)
> > >2:30pm: Departs NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Facility. This huge Ukrainian
> > >transport had RONd previous night after bringing large aerospace cargo. Note
> > >RON at SLF instead of CCAFS whose runway is closed for construction.
> > >[128.55, 132.65, 124.8, 133.3]
> > >
> > >VAMPIRE 72: F/A-22, Tyndall AFB 325FW 43FS
> > >2:45pm: Touch and go at Patrick on apparent fam flight through area; remains at
> > >low altitude (and therefor VHF freqs). This is my first snag of comms from an
> > >F/A-22. Was a bit too low and fast for me to get into my camera window.
> > >Tyndall is USAF's only F/A-22 schoolhouse; so I expect to see more of them.
> > >Made a wonderful shallow swooping pass over my house off of Patrick's Rnwy 20
> > >before heading south along the coast. I LIKE this plane. Looks like it loves to
> > >roll.
> > >[133.75, 1312.65, 132.25]
> > >
> > >SHARKs 21, 22, 23: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> > >3:00pm: Strafing at Avon Park Bombing Range.
> > >[292.2, 285.725, 139.8]
> > >
> > >MAKO 11 Flight: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> > >3:00pm: Hitting tgts at Avon Park.
> > >3:04pm: MAKO 11 has to RTB HST with problem.
> > >3:40pm: Balance of flight RTBs.
> > >[292.2, 285.725, 307.1, 269.3, 239.25, 370.9, 322.5]
> > >
> > >SHARK 89: C-130.
> > >3:39pm: Area transition, to waypoint Nassau.
> > >[119.825]
> > >
> > >LIMA LIMA 38: P-3C Jacksonville NAS VP-30 "Pro's Nest" Sqdn.
> > >3:45pm: Area transition.
> > >[133.475]
> > >
> > >ZANTOP 757: Zantop Intl (Charter), Ypsilanti MI
> > >5:27pm: Area transition.
> > >Those of us who were here in the 1960s Hey-days of the space program, remember
> > >the ever-present Zantop acft at Patrick AFB, supporting operations. ZANTOP 757
> > >engaged in some great reminiscences about those days; this pilot flew flights
> > >into Patrick in the old days, and the 133.475 ATC was controlling flights back
> > >then. Nice to hear them chat and to feel the nostalgia of my days during the
> > >Gemini missions and the Saturn-Apollo moon-landing flights. I used to monitor
> > >the action right from the beach in those days.
> > >
> > >BOLT 13: KC-135R, MacDill 6AMW.
> > >10:03pm: En route to Homestead.
> > >[133.475, 119.825, 132.25]
> > >
> > >AL STERN Satellite Beach FL (28-11N 80-36W) monitoring
> > > Patrick AFB (KCOF) NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Fac (KX68)
> > > Avon Park Bombing Range (KAGR) Cape Canaveral AFS (KXMR)
> > > JSTARS E-8 Acft Integration Facility, Melbourne IAP (KMLB)
> > > Worldwide Military HF Communications
> > > Life Member: Missile, Space and Range Pioneers.
> > > http://hometown.aol.com/allanstern/myhomepage/index.html (My Freqs)
> > > http://hometown.aol.com/scanaddict/index.html (My Equipment)

[miso]

Try radioreference.com for frequencies. For online scanners, I suggest
joining LiveScannerAudio at yahoogroups and asking for info there. For
tuneable scanners, some guys are working on this in the
livescanneraudio yahoogroups. For live remote control scanners that
work now, check out
http://www.dxtuners.com/servlet/IBMainServlet/?ib_page=1
I used to use this site when it was called javaradio.com to monitor
the ATC at Palmdale and Edwards, but that scanner went offline.
There is a site that has links to live ATC, but I can't seem to locate
the link. There are maybe 5 airports covered, so it wasn't very
extensive.


(Klaus Gerber) wrote in message >...
> I'm looking for sites with lists of online scanner links for police,
> fire, railroad, tunable scanners, EMS, or any type of emergency
> service. I am also looking for live ATC, Ground control, etc...
>
> Thanks,
> Klaus
> VirtualTuner.com
>
>
> (miso) wrote in message >...
> > I took a look at the article. The deal here is Al or civilians in
> > general don't know anything in the sense that they don't know when
> > that plane will be arriving or dispatched. A guy with a scanner only
> > has knowledge of the present AND nobody in the military gave him that
> > knowledge. The assumption is whatever Al is doing can be done by the
> > enemy, though probably not as good of a job as Al does.
> >
> > fudog50 > wrote in message >...
> > > Here is one for starters, I'm sure you will get all defensive about
> > > it, I don't make the guidelines, but here are some of them.
> > >
> > > http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/a021202b.html
> > >
> > > On 18 May 2004 03:17:15 GMT, (AllanStern) wrote:
> > >
> > > > Monday, 17 May 2004
> > > > Interesting comms today: some concerning one of the nation's newest acft,
> > > >the F/A-22 now at Tyndall AFB, and some about the good old days when "The Real
> > > >Stuff" was going on at Cape Canaveral, and I was there.
> > > >
> > > >AIR TRANSPORT 400: DC-8, Little Rock (USAF Contractor)
> > > >8:58am: Lands Patrick. Later departs to Antigua, then to Ascension - both USAF
> > > >Eastern Test Range downrange sites.
> > > >[133.75]
> > > >
> > > >N4667B: CE-208B Cessna Caravan, US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air Wing,
> > > >Patrick AFB.
> > > >9:17am: Departs Patrick.
> > > >2:50pm: Lands Patrick.
> > > >[133.75]
> > > >
> > > >HAWK 85; F/A-18D, Beaufort MCAS VMFA(AW)-533
> > > >9:44am: Transitions area to Mayport NAF
> > > >[269.3, 273.55]
> > > >
> > > >MAKOs 11, 12: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> > > >10:01am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
> > > >[292.2, 138.125]
> > > >
> > > >SHARK 21: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> > > >10:25am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
> > > >10:45am: RTBs to HST.
> > > >[292.2, 307.1, 139.8]
> > > >
> > > >AX 186: C-130T, Andrews AFB VR-53 "Capitol Express"
> > > >10:31am: Area transition. Might be C-40 acft replacing VR-53's C-130Ts, as
> > > >noted by Sandy in Colo recently.
> > > >[133.475, 132.15]
> > > >
> > > >BRONCO 01: OV-10D, US State Dept US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air
> > > >Wing, Patrick AFB.
> > > >10:45am: Departs Patrick (flight of 2).
> > > >4:12pm: Lands Patrick.
> > > >[133.75]
> > > >
> > > >AKULA 31: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> > > >10:52am: Single ship, arrives at Avon Park Bombing Range.
> > > >[292.2, 307.1]
> > > >
> > > >JOLLYs 11, 12: HH-60G Pave Hawk Helos, Patrick AFB 920RQW
> > > >11:51am: Departs Patrick; approaches at KMLB, Patrick.
> > > >[269.375]
> > > >
> > > >PJ 610: P-3C, Whidbey Island NAS VP-69 "Totems" Sqdn
> > > >12:10pm: Lands Patrick.
> > > >[269.375]
> > > >
> > > >HQ 475: SH-60B, Mayport NAF HSL-46 "Grandmasters" Sqdn
> > > >12:30pm: Area transition.
> > > >[132.65]
> > > >
> > > >VDA 4813: AN-124, Volga Dnepr (Contractor)
> > > >2:30pm: Departs NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Facility. This huge Ukrainian
> > > >transport had RONd previous night after bringing large aerospace cargo. Note
> > > >RON at SLF instead of CCAFS whose runway is closed for construction.
> > > >[128.55, 132.65, 124.8, 133.3]
> > > >
> > > >VAMPIRE 72: F/A-22, Tyndall AFB 325FW 43FS
> > > >2:45pm: Touch and go at Patrick on apparent fam flight through area; remains at
> > > >low altitude (and therefor VHF freqs). This is my first snag of comms from an
> > > >F/A-22. Was a bit too low and fast for me to get into my camera window.
> > > >Tyndall is USAF's only F/A-22 schoolhouse; so I expect to see more of them.
> > > >Made a wonderful shallow swooping pass over my house off of Patrick's Rnwy 20
> > > >before heading south along the coast. I LIKE this plane. Looks like it loves to
> > > >roll.
> > > >[133.75, 1312.65, 132.25]
> > > >
> > > >SHARKs 21, 22, 23: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> > > >3:00pm: Strafing at Avon Park Bombing Range.
> > > >[292.2, 285.725, 139.8]
> > > >
> > > >MAKO 11 Flight: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> > > >3:00pm: Hitting tgts at Avon Park.
> > > >3:04pm: MAKO 11 has to RTB HST with problem.
> > > >3:40pm: Balance of flight RTBs.
> > > >[292.2, 285.725, 307.1, 269.3, 239.25, 370.9, 322.5]
> > > >
> > > >SHARK 89: C-130.
> > > >3:39pm: Area transition, to waypoint Nassau.
> > > >[119.825]
> > > >
> > > >LIMA LIMA 38: P-3C Jacksonville NAS VP-30 "Pro's Nest" Sqdn.
> > > >3:45pm: Area transition.
> > > >[133.475]
> > > >
> > > >ZANTOP 757: Zantop Intl (Charter), Ypsilanti MI
> > > >5:27pm: Area transition.
> > > >Those of us who were here in the 1960s Hey-days of the space program, remember
> > > >the ever-present Zantop acft at Patrick AFB, supporting operations. ZANTOP 757
> > > >engaged in some great reminiscences about those days; this pilot flew flights
> > > >into Patrick in the old days, and the 133.475 ATC was controlling flights back
> > > >then. Nice to hear them chat and to feel the nostalgia of my days during the
> > > >Gemini missions and the Saturn-Apollo moon-landing flights. I used to monitor
> > > >the action right from the beach in those days.
> > > >
> > > >BOLT 13: KC-135R, MacDill 6AMW.
> > > >10:03pm: En route to Homestead.
> > > >[133.475, 119.825, 132.25]
> > > >
> > > >AL STERN Satellite Beach FL (28-11N 80-36W) monitoring
> > > > Patrick AFB (KCOF) NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Fac (KX68)
> > > > Avon Park Bombing Range (KAGR) Cape Canaveral AFS (KXMR)
> > > > JSTARS E-8 Acft Integration Facility, Melbourne IAP (KMLB)
> > > > Worldwide Military HF Communications
> > > > Life Member: Missile, Space and Range Pioneers.
> > > > http://hometown.aol.com/allanstern/myhomepage/index.html (My Freqs)
> > > > http://hometown.aol.com/scanaddict/index.html (My Equipment)

[Klaus Gerber]

Thanks for the information, I will check it out. Anyone else have suggestions?

(miso) wrote in message >...
> Try radioreference.com for frequencies. For online scanners, I suggest
> joining LiveScannerAudio at yahoogroups and asking for info there. For
> tuneable scanners, some guys are working on this in the
> livescanneraudio yahoogroups. For live remote control scanners that
> work now, check out
> http://www.dxtuners.com/servlet/IBMainServlet/?ib_page=1
> I used to use this site when it was called javaradio.com to monitor
> the ATC at Palmdale and Edwards, but that scanner went offline.
> There is a site that has links to live ATC, but I can't seem to locate
> the link. There are maybe 5 airports covered, so it wasn't very
> extensive.
>
>
> (Klaus Gerber) wrote in message >...
> > I'm looking for sites with lists of online scanner links for police,
> > fire, railroad, tunable scanners, EMS, or any type of emergency
> > service. I am also looking for live ATC, Ground control, etc...
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Klaus
> > VirtualTuner.com
> >
> >
> > (miso) wrote in message >...
> > > I took a look at the article. The deal here is Al or civilians in
> > > general don't know anything in the sense that they don't know when
> > > that plane will be arriving or dispatched. A guy with a scanner only
> > > has knowledge of the present AND nobody in the military gave him that
> > > knowledge. The assumption is whatever Al is doing can be done by the
> > > enemy, though probably not as good of a job as Al does.
> > >
> > > fudog50 > wrote in message >...
> > > > Here is one for starters, I'm sure you will get all defensive about
> > > > it, I don't make the guidelines, but here are some of them.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/a021202b.html
> > > >
> > > > On 18 May 2004 03:17:15 GMT, (AllanStern) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Monday, 17 May 2004
> > > > > Interesting comms today: some concerning one of the nation's newest acft,
> > > > >the F/A-22 now at Tyndall AFB, and some about the good old days when "The Real
> > > > >Stuff" was going on at Cape Canaveral, and I was there.
> > > > >
> > > > >AIR TRANSPORT 400: DC-8, Little Rock (USAF Contractor)
> > > > >8:58am: Lands Patrick. Later departs to Antigua, then to Ascension - both USAF
> > > > >Eastern Test Range downrange sites.
> > > > >[133.75]
> > > > >
> > > > >N4667B: CE-208B Cessna Caravan, US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air Wing,
> > > > >Patrick AFB.
> > > > >9:17am: Departs Patrick.
> > > > >2:50pm: Lands Patrick.
> > > > >[133.75]
> > > > >
> > > > >HAWK 85; F/A-18D, Beaufort MCAS VMFA(AW)-533
> > > > >9:44am: Transitions area to Mayport NAF
> > > > >[269.3, 273.55]
> > > > >
> > > > >MAKOs 11, 12: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> > > > >10:01am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
> > > > >[292.2, 138.125]
> > > > >
> > > > >SHARK 21: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> > > > >10:25am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
> > > > >10:45am: RTBs to HST.
> > > > >[292.2, 307.1, 139.8]
> > > > >
> > > > >AX 186: C-130T, Andrews AFB VR-53 "Capitol Express"
> > > > >10:31am: Area transition. Might be C-40 acft replacing VR-53's C-130Ts, as
> > > > >noted by Sandy in Colo recently.
> > > > >[133.475, 132.15]
> > > > >
> > > > >BRONCO 01: OV-10D, US State Dept US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air
> > > > >Wing, Patrick AFB.
> > > > >10:45am: Departs Patrick (flight of 2).
> > > > >4:12pm: Lands Patrick.
> > > > >[133.75]
> > > > >
> > > > >AKULA 31: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> > > > >10:52am: Single ship, arrives at Avon Park Bombing Range.
> > > > >[292.2, 307.1]
> > > > >
> > > > >JOLLYs 11, 12: HH-60G Pave Hawk Helos, Patrick AFB 920RQW
> > > > >11:51am: Departs Patrick; approaches at KMLB, Patrick.
> > > > >[269.375]
> > > > >
> > > > >PJ 610: P-3C, Whidbey Island NAS VP-69 "Totems" Sqdn
> > > > >12:10pm: Lands Patrick.
> > > > >[269.375]
> > > > >
> > > > >HQ 475: SH-60B, Mayport NAF HSL-46 "Grandmasters" Sqdn
> > > > >12:30pm: Area transition.
> > > > >[132.65]
> > > > >
> > > > >VDA 4813: AN-124, Volga Dnepr (Contractor)
> > > > >2:30pm: Departs NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Facility. This huge Ukrainian
> > > > >transport had RONd previous night after bringing large aerospace cargo. Note
> > > > >RON at SLF instead of CCAFS whose runway is closed for construction.
> > > > >[128.55, 132.65, 124.8, 133.3]
> > > > >
> > > > >VAMPIRE 72: F/A-22, Tyndall AFB 325FW 43FS
> > > > >2:45pm: Touch and go at Patrick on apparent fam flight through area; remains at
> > > > >low altitude (and therefor VHF freqs). This is my first snag of comms from an
> > > > >F/A-22. Was a bit too low and fast for me to get into my camera window.
> > > > >Tyndall is USAF's only F/A-22 schoolhouse; so I expect to see more of them.
> > > > >Made a wonderful shallow swooping pass over my house off of Patrick's Rnwy 20
> > > > >before heading south along the coast. I LIKE this plane. Looks like it loves to
> > > > >roll.
> > > > >[133.75, 1312.65, 132.25]
> > > > >
> > > > >SHARKs 21, 22, 23: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> > > > >3:00pm: Strafing at Avon Park Bombing Range.
> > > > >[292.2, 285.725, 139.8]
> > > > >
> > > > >MAKO 11 Flight: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
> > > > >3:00pm: Hitting tgts at Avon Park.
> > > > >3:04pm: MAKO 11 has to RTB HST with problem.
> > > > >3:40pm: Balance of flight RTBs.
> > > > >[292.2, 285.725, 307.1, 269.3, 239.25, 370.9, 322.5]
> > > > >
> > > > >SHARK 89: C-130.
> > > > >3:39pm: Area transition, to waypoint Nassau.
> > > > >[119.825]
> > > > >
> > > > >LIMA LIMA 38: P-3C Jacksonville NAS VP-30 "Pro's Nest" Sqdn.
> > > > >3:45pm: Area transition.
> > > > >[133.475]
> > > > >
> > > > >ZANTOP 757: Zantop Intl (Charter), Ypsilanti MI
> > > > >5:27pm: Area transition.
> > > > >Those of us who were here in the 1960s Hey-days of the space program, remember
> > > > >the ever-present Zantop acft at Patrick AFB, supporting operations. ZANTOP 757
> > > > >engaged in some great reminiscences about those days; this pilot flew flights
> > > > >into Patrick in the old days, and the 133.475 ATC was controlling flights back
> > > > >then. Nice to hear them chat and to feel the nostalgia of my days during the
> > > > >Gemini missions and the Saturn-Apollo moon-landing flights. I used to monitor
> > > > >the action right from the beach in those days.
> > > > >
> > > > >BOLT 13: KC-135R, MacDill 6AMW.
> > > > >10:03pm: En route to Homestead.
> > > > >[133.475, 119.825, 132.25]
> > > > >
> > > > >AL STERN Satellite Beach FL (28-11N 80-36W) monitoring
> > > > > Patrick AFB (KCOF) NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Fac (KX68)
> > > > > Avon Park Bombing Range (KAGR) Cape Canaveral AFS (KXMR)
> > > > > JSTARS E-8 Acft Integration Facility, Melbourne IAP (KMLB)
> > > > > Worldwide Military HF Communications
> > > > > Life Member: Missile, Space and Range Pioneers.
> > > > > http://hometown.aol.com/allanstern/myhomepage/index.html (My Freqs)
> > > > > http://hometown.aol.com/scanaddict/index.html (My Equipment)