Hybrid Engines??

[sisu1a]

Just read an AOPA article about hybrid engines being developed in
Germany, but the article is rather short. http://tinyurl.com/aqnq5o
anyone have any additional info?

-Paul

[noel.wade]

On Mar 13, 8:49*am, sisu1a > wrote:
> Just read an AOPA article about hybrid engines being developed in
> Germany, but the article is rather short. *http://tinyurl.com/aqnq5o
> anyone have any additional info?
>
> -Paul

Have you seen the Sonex e-Flight program?
Or how about the Electric Apis project?
http://www.glider-one.si/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

Exciting times!

--Noel

[sisu1a]

> Have you seen the Sonex e-Flight program?
> Or how about the Electric Apis project?http://www.glider-one.si/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
>
> Exciting times!
>
> --Noel

Seen'em, thanks; (I've even had the pleasure of attending one of Pete
Buck's [the brains behind the Sonex project dubbed 'Flash Flight']
presentations on it, and checked out some of their special custom
lithium cells too, then picked his brain for a while..., in addition
to Cafe' green racer updates and Goshawk info...) all very neat, but I
want to know more about these hybrid engines in the 140-200 hp range
that would revolutionize glider towing as we know it... Anyone have
anything to add to this topic? Googling has provided scant little
additional info to me so far...

Exiting times indeed! (except that by the time it's all come to
fruition the air will probably only be designated for UAV's and heavy
iron...)

-Paul

[cernauta]

On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 08:49:59 -0700 (PDT), sisu1a
> wrote:

>Just read an AOPA article about hybrid engines being developed in
>Germany, but the article is rather short. http://tinyurl.com/aqnq5o
>anyone have any additional info?

Just this from http://www.flightdesign.com/ :

>Flight Design Presents New Propulsion System; Green Power Proof of Concept to Debut at Aero
>2009-03-13
>
>At the Aero show or salon in the picturesque lakeside resort of Friedrichshafen Germany, the world’s largest Light-Sport Aircraft Manufacturer, Flight Design GmbH will debut one of the first legitimate “green” projects for light aircraft powerplants. Aero is scheduled to run 2-5 April 2009 and will include debut the event’s first show-within-the-show, the E-Flight-Expo.
>
>
>
> “Rising oil prices and environmental regulations will begin force airplane manufacturers to rethink propulsion systems. Flight Design is sure that in the long term, research developments for electric or hydrogen powered propulsion systems will provide realistic, useful solutions,” said Flight Design CEO, Matthias Betsch. “To have in the short and middle term efficient and environmentally-friendly airplanes for general aviation, Flight Design has in the last two years developed together with Franz Aircraft Engines a Hybrid concept, which first will be shown to the public at Aero.” The Aero event in Friedrichshafen, Germany is one of the most important shows in Europe and is often used to debut new technology.
> Flight Design explained that the concept is based on using a well-established certified aircraft engine together with an electric booster. The concept combines the reliability of a certified engine with a very high boost power of the electric motor, which is only used for take-off and climb. “The result is an optimized engine in respect to size, weight and fuel efficiency for cruise flight, with additional 40 horsepower for take-off, climb or during an engine stoppage due to fuel starvation”, said Betsch
>
>.
>
> Due to of the low installed system weight, the propulsion system will give new possibilities for general aviation airplanes by increasing payload. First flight tests of the new powerplant system will be made in 2009 using an existing airplane. Flight Design also indicated that preliminary talks with the EASA regarding sensible ways of certification have been already successfully conducted.
> Flight Design is a 23-year-old air sport products producer based in Germany. Over 1,300 of its aircraft are flying in 25 countries. One of the first aircraft certified under the American ASTM standards, in 2005, the CT (“composite technology”) remains the best-selling LSA in America through four consecutive years. CT in several models has been popular in Germany and Europe for more than thirteen years.

[noel.wade]

On Mar 13, 10:03*am, sisu1a > wrote:

> I want to know more about these hybrid engines in the 140-200 hp range
> that would revolutionize glider towing as we know it... * *Anyone have

Paul -

I think it would only revolutionize towing if you could either quickly
recharge the cells, or if they had INCREDIBLE capacity! Towing is a
repetitive action that requires a high power output for several
minutes at a time (which translates to a fast discharge, hard on
batteries)... I hate to say it, but I think the physics of an
aerotowing operation mean that it'll be one of the last things that
battery power would be applicable to.

Now winches (especially one that has a serial hybrid drive like the
Chevy Volt) might be another story... Batteries are used extensively
to power R/C glider winches already, and while the draw/load is still
very high, its a much shorter duration than an aerotow.

Nevertheless, I'm psyched about any and all _real-world_ advances in
electric propulsion. Disconnecting "work" or power output from the
source (using electricity as an efficient middle-man) frees up the
national/global infrastructure to adapt more readily to whatever power-
generation system works out to be the best!

Take care,

--Noel

[Martin Gregorie[_4_]]

On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 18:08:07 -0700, noel.wade wrote:

> Now winches (especially one that has a serial hybrid drive like the
> Chevy Volt) might be another story... Batteries are used extensively to
> power R/C glider winches already, and while the draw/load is still very
> high, its a much shorter duration than an aerotow.
>
You can have a hybrid winch any time you want.

Just get hold of an Electrostartwinde ESW-2B and park a 15 - 20 kW diesel
trailer generator behind it.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Jim White[_2_]]

I thought the point was to provide additional horsepower on the ground run
and initial climb out. A Rotax 100hp engine would be able to tow OK
without the extra oompf during the rest of the climb whilst recharging the
battery.

Interesting article here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7938001.stm

on Li-ion battery technology and fast charging

Jim


At 01:08 14 March 2009, noel.wade wrote:
>On Mar 13, 10:03=A0am, sisu1a wrote:
>
>> I want to know more about these hybrid engines in the 140-200 hp range
>> that would revolutionize glider towing as we know it... =A0 =A0Anyone
>hav=
>e
>
>Paul -
>
>I think it would only revolutionize towing if you could either quickly
>recharge the cells, or if they had INCREDIBLE capacity! Towing is a
>repetitive action that requires a high power output for several
>minutes at a time (which translates to a fast discharge, hard on
>batteries)... I hate to say it, but I think the physics of an
>aerotowing operation mean that it'll be one of the last things that
>battery power would be applicable to.
>
>Now winches (especially one that has a serial hybrid drive like the
>Chevy Volt) might be another story... Batteries are used extensively
>to power R/C glider winches already, and while the draw/load is still
>very high, its a much shorter duration than an aerotow.
>
>Nevertheless, I'm psyched about any and all _real-world_ advances in
>electric propulsion. Disconnecting "work" or power output from the
>source (using electricity as an efficient middle-man) frees up the
>national/global infrastructure to adapt more readily to whatever power-
>generation system works out to be the best!
>
>Take care,
>
>--Noel
>
>

[Markus Gayda]

How about using the propeller as a generator on the way down?
Recharge the battery. (of course you cant do that with a static prop)

THAT would be a real hybrid :-)

CU
Markus

[bildan]

On Mar 14, 3:54*am, Markus Gayda > wrote:
> How about using the propeller as a generator on the way down?
> Recharge the battery. (of course you cant do that with a static prop)
>
> THAT would be a real hybrid :-)
>
> CU
> Markus

Possibly a better approach is to look carefully at propeller
efficiency in the initial acceleration. In the ground roll where the
prop efficiency unlikely to be more than 25%. Touring motorgliders
like airplanes with fixed props are optimized for cruise, not
acceleration.

Small, high RPM props are very bad at very low airspeeds. Big, low
RPM props far better as are ducted fans. Note that helicopters use
huge rotors at around 300 RPM to slowly lift the entire aircraft
straight up. Other VTOL aircraft like the F35B use ducted fans which
are at their best below 75 knots.

The tiny prop is the weak link in current motorglider tugs. It
doesn't look as if it would be hard for the designers to lengthen the
landing gear by 25cm and ask Rotax to supply greater gear reduction
for a bigger, slower prop. A bigger prop would address the slow
acceleration.

[Mike Schumann]

The acceleration is still limited by the available power vs the total mass
of the glider and tow plane.

Mike Schumann

"bildan" > wrote in message
...
On Mar 14, 3:54 am, Markus Gayda > wrote:
> How about using the propeller as a generator on the way down?
> Recharge the battery. (of course you cant do that with a static prop)
>
> THAT would be a real hybrid :-)
>
> CU
> Markus

Possibly a better approach is to look carefully at propeller
efficiency in the initial acceleration. In the ground roll where the
prop efficiency unlikely to be more than 25%. Touring motorgliders
like airplanes with fixed props are optimized for cruise, not
acceleration.

Small, high RPM props are very bad at very low airspeeds. Big, low
RPM props far better as are ducted fans. Note that helicopters use
huge rotors at around 300 RPM to slowly lift the entire aircraft
straight up. Other VTOL aircraft like the F35B use ducted fans which
are at their best below 75 knots.

The tiny prop is the weak link in current motorglider tugs. It
doesn't look as if it would be hard for the designers to lengthen the
landing gear by 25cm and ask Rotax to supply greater gear reduction
for a bigger, slower prop. A bigger prop would address the slow
acceleration.

[sisu1a]

> The acceleration is still limited by the available power vs the total mass
> of the glider and tow plane.
>
>
> Possibly a better approach is to look carefully at propeller
> efficiency in the initial acceleration. *In the ground roll where the
> prop efficiency unlikely to be more than 25%.

Hmm, perhaps a better idea for a hybrid towplane than these hybrid
engines would be a tug with electric motors in it's wheels to quickly
get the party started... say up to 30mph or so before the prop is
providing primary thrust.

-Paul

PS. Noel, I definitely agree that battery/energy storage technology
needs to improve vastly (including $$$) for these to be truly viable
(read revolutionary) alternatives...

[brtlmj]

With two engines driving one propeller, does it count as a twin? ;-)

Bart

[Mike Schumann]

How about a catapult?

Mike Schumann

"sisu1a" > wrote in message
...

> The acceleration is still limited by the available power vs the total mass
> of the glider and tow plane.
>
>
> Possibly a better approach is to look carefully at propeller
> efficiency in the initial acceleration. In the ground roll where the
> prop efficiency unlikely to be more than 25%.

Hmm, perhaps a better idea for a hybrid towplane than these hybrid
engines would be a tug with electric motors in it's wheels to quickly
get the party started... say up to 30mph or so before the prop is
providing primary thrust.

-Paul

PS. Noel, I definitely agree that battery/energy storage technology
needs to improve vastly (including $$$) for these to be truly viable
(read revolutionary) alternatives...

[Eric Greenwell]

bildan wrote:

> Possibly a better approach is to look carefully at propeller
> efficiency in the initial acceleration. In the ground roll where the
> prop efficiency unlikely to be more than 25%. Touring motorgliders
> like airplanes with fixed props are optimized for cruise, not
> acceleration.
>
> Small, high RPM props are very bad at very low airspeeds. Big, low
> RPM props far better as are ducted fans. Note that helicopters use
> huge rotors at around 300 RPM to slowly lift the entire aircraft
> straight up. Other VTOL aircraft like the F35B use ducted fans which
> are at their best below 75 knots.
>
> The tiny prop is the weak link in current motorglider tugs. It
> doesn't look as if it would be hard for the designers to lengthen the
> landing gear by 25cm and ask Rotax to supply greater gear reduction
> for a bigger, slower prop. A bigger prop would address the slow
> acceleration.

The touring motorgliders I'm aware of have either an adjustable
propeller, or three position propeller (feathered, climb, cruise). I
would expect the ones used for towing to have the same; if so, the slow
acceleration may not be a propeller problem, but a power to weight
issue. Once airborne, their better aerodynamic efficiency makes up for
the lower power to weight, but that doesn't help the ground run.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* Sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[[email protected]]

On Mar 14, 2:54*am, Markus Gayda > wrote:
> How about using the propeller as a generator on the way down?
> Recharge the battery. (of course you cant do that with a static prop)
>
> THAT would be a real hybrid :-)
>
> CU
> Markus

Of course why not use all of the available energy? The turnstiles in
the New York subways are connected to generators that run the cars.

[bildan]

On Mar 14, 2:45*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> bildan wrote:
> > Possibly a better approach is to look carefully at propeller
> > efficiency in the initial acceleration. *In the ground roll where the
> > prop efficiency unlikely to be more than 25%. Touring motorgliders
> > like airplanes with fixed props are optimized for cruise, not
> > acceleration.
>
> > Small, high RPM props are very bad at very low airspeeds. *Big, low
> > RPM props far better as are ducted fans. *Note that helicopters use
> > huge rotors at around 300 RPM to slowly lift the entire aircraft
> > straight up. *Other VTOL aircraft like the F35B use ducted fans which
> > are at their best below 75 knots.
>
> > The tiny prop is the weak link in current motorglider tugs. *It
> > doesn't look as if it would be hard for the designers to lengthen the
> > landing gear by 25cm and ask Rotax to supply greater gear reduction
> > for a bigger, slower prop. *A bigger prop would address the slow
> > acceleration.
>
> The touring motorgliders I'm aware of have either an adjustable
> propeller, or three position propeller (feathered, climb, cruise). I
> would expect the ones used for towing to have the same; if so, the slow
> acceleration may not be a propeller problem, but a power to weight
> issue. Once airborne, their better aerodynamic efficiency makes up for
> the lower power to weight, but that doesn't help the ground run.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> * "Transponders in Sailplanes"http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
> * * * Sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more
>
> * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org

Eric, it's a disk loading issue. Efficient props accelerate a whole
lot of air a little bit. Small props, regardless of pitch setting,
accelerate a little bit of air a whole lot. The solution to the low
speed efficiency issue is large diameter propellers turning slowly -
like 1000 RPM.

If you can make them work, ducted fans are in their sweet spot at
towing speeds. There's some blimps powered by ducted fans that claim
8 pounds of static thrust per HP - blimps fly at about towing speeds.
That's 800 pounds of thrust for 100HP which should get things rolling
quickly.

I think there are technologies on the horizon that might allow for
electric tugs as long as you were willing to charge them frequently.
The announcement this week in MIT's Technology Review of charging
times in seconds might be one of the breakthroughs.

[Jim Beckman[_2_]]

At 09:54 14 March 2009, Markus Gayda wrote:
>How about using the propeller as a generator on the way down?
>Recharge the battery. (of course you cant do that with a static prop)

How about using the engine to run the generator on the way down? This
strikes me as one of the few advantages of the hybrid arrangement for a
towplane - give the engine something to do on the way back down. Load it
up, keep it working, keep it hot. Come down faster without worrying about
shock cooling an aircooled tug engine.

I also agree that this requires a prohibitively heavy battery array, but
with improving battery technology it might eventually work.

Oh, wait, wait, how about flywheel energy storage? Now *there's* a fun
idea - just *think* of the entertaining gyroscopic effects.

Jim Beckman