Hybrid Engines??

Just read an AOPA article about hybrid engines being developed in
Germany, but the article is rather short. http://tinyurl.com/aqnq5o
anyone have any additional info?

-Paul

On Mar 13, 8:49*am, sisu1a wrote:
Just read an AOPA article about hybrid engines being developed in
Germany, but the article is rather short. *http://tinyurl.com/aqnq5o
anyone have any additional info?

-Paul

Have you seen the Sonex e-Flight program?
Or how about the Electric Apis project?
http://www.glider-one.si/index.php?o...tpage&Itemid=1

Exciting times!

--Noel

Have you seen the Sonex e-Flight program?
Or how about the Electric Apis project?http://www.glider-one.si/index.php?o...tpage&Itemid=1

Exciting times!

--Noel

Seen'em, thanks; (I've even had the pleasure of attending one of Pete
Buck's [the brains behind the Sonex project dubbed 'Flash Flight']
presentations on it, and checked out some of their special custom
lithium cells too, then picked his brain for a while..., in addition
to Cafe' green racer updates and Goshawk info...) all very neat, but I
want to know more about these hybrid engines in the 140-200 hp range
that would revolutionize glider towing as we know it... Anyone have
anything to add to this topic? Googling has provided scant little
additional info to me so far...

Exiting times indeed! (except that by the time it's all come to
fruition the air will probably only be designated for UAV's and heavy
iron...)

-Paul

On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 08:49:59 -0700 (PDT), sisu1a
wrote:

Just read an AOPA article about hybrid engines being developed in
Germany, but the article is rather short. http://tinyurl.com/aqnq5o
anyone have any additional info?

Just this from http://www.flightdesign.com/ :

Flight Design Presents New Propulsion System; Green Power Proof of Concept to Debut at Aero
2009-03-13

At the Aero show or salon in the picturesque lakeside resort of Friedrichshafen Germany, the world’s largest Light-Sport Aircraft Manufacturer, Flight Design GmbH will debut one of the first legitimate “green” projects for light aircraft powerplants. Aero is scheduled to run 2-5 April 2009 and will include debut the event’s first show-within-the-show, the E-Flight-Expo.



“Rising oil prices and environmental regulations will begin force airplane manufacturers to rethink propulsion systems. Flight Design is sure that in the long term, research developments for electric or hydrogen powered propulsion systems will provide realistic, useful solutions,” said Flight Design CEO, Matthias Betsch. “To have in the short and middle term efficient and environmentally-friendly airplanes for general aviation, Flight Design has in the last two years developed together with Franz Aircraft Engines a Hybrid concept, which first will be shown to the public at Aero.” The Aero event in Friedrichshafen, Germany is one of the most important shows in Europe and is often used to debut new technology.
Flight Design explained that the concept is based on using a well-established certified aircraft engine together with an electric booster. The concept combines the reliability of a certified engine with a very high boost power of the electric motor, which is only used for take-off and climb. “The result is an optimized engine in respect to size, weight and fuel efficiency for cruise flight, with additional 40 horsepower for take-off, climb or during an engine stoppage due to fuel starvation”, said Betsch

.

Due to of the low installed system weight, the propulsion system will give new possibilities for general aviation airplanes by increasing payload. First flight tests of the new powerplant system will be made in 2009 using an existing airplane. Flight Design also indicated that preliminary talks with the EASA regarding sensible ways of certification have been already successfully conducted.
Flight Design is a 23-year-old air sport products producer based in Germany. Over 1,300 of its aircraft are flying in 25 countries. One of the first aircraft certified under the American ASTM standards, in 2005, the CT (“composite technology”) remains the best-selling LSA in America through four consecutive years. CT in several models has been popular in Germany and Europe for more than thirteen years.

On Mar 13, 10:03*am, sisu1a wrote:

I want to know more about these hybrid engines in the 140-200 hp range
that would revolutionize glider towing as we know it... * *Anyone have

Paul -

I think it would only revolutionize towing if you could either quickly
recharge the cells, or if they had INCREDIBLE capacity! Towing is a
repetitive action that requires a high power output for several
minutes at a time (which translates to a fast discharge, hard on
batteries)... I hate to say it, but I think the physics of an
aerotowing operation mean that it'll be one of the last things that
battery power would be applicable to.

Now winches (especially one that has a serial hybrid drive like the
Chevy Volt) might be another story... Batteries are used extensively
to power R/C glider winches already, and while the draw/load is still
very high, its a much shorter duration than an aerotow.

Nevertheless, I'm psyched about any and all _real-world_ advances in
electric propulsion. Disconnecting "work" or power output from the
source (using electricity as an efficient middle-man) frees up the
national/global infrastructure to adapt more readily to whatever power-
generation system works out to be the best!

Take care,

--Noel

On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 18:08:07 -0700, noel.wade wrote:

Now winches (especially one that has a serial hybrid drive like the
Chevy Volt) might be another story... Batteries are used extensively to
power R/C glider winches already, and while the draw/load is still very
high, its a much shorter duration than an aerotow.

You can have a hybrid winch any time you want.

Just get hold of an Electrostartwinde ESW-2B and park a 15 - 20 kW diesel
trailer generator behind it.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

I thought the point was to provide additional horsepower on the ground run
and initial climb out. A Rotax 100hp engine would be able to tow OK
without the extra oompf during the rest of the climb whilst recharging the
battery.

Interesting article here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7938001.stm

on Li-ion battery technology and fast charging

Jim


At 01:08 14 March 2009, noel.wade wrote:
On Mar 13, 10:03=A0am, sisu1a wrote:

I want to know more about these hybrid engines in the 140-200 hp range
that would revolutionize glider towing as we know it... =A0 =A0Anyone
hav=
e

Paul -

I think it would only revolutionize towing if you could either quickly
recharge the cells, or if they had INCREDIBLE capacity! Towing is a
repetitive action that requires a high power output for several
minutes at a time (which translates to a fast discharge, hard on
batteries)... I hate to say it, but I think the physics of an
aerotowing operation mean that it'll be one of the last things that
battery power would be applicable to.

Now winches (especially one that has a serial hybrid drive like the
Chevy Volt) might be another story... Batteries are used extensively
to power R/C glider winches already, and while the draw/load is still
very high, its a much shorter duration than an aerotow.

Nevertheless, I'm psyched about any and all _real-world_ advances in
electric propulsion. Disconnecting "work" or power output from the
source (using electricity as an efficient middle-man) frees up the
national/global infrastructure to adapt more readily to whatever power-
generation system works out to be the best!

Take care,

--Noel

How about using the propeller as a generator on the way down?
Recharge the battery. (of course you cant do that with a static prop)

THAT would be a real hybrid :-)

CU
Markus

On Mar 14, 3:54*am, Markus Gayda wrote:
How about using the propeller as a generator on the way down?
Recharge the battery. (of course you cant do that with a static prop)

THAT would be a real hybrid :-)

CU
Markus

Possibly a better approach is to look carefully at propeller
efficiency in the initial acceleration. In the ground roll where the
prop efficiency unlikely to be more than 25%. Touring motorgliders
like airplanes with fixed props are optimized for cruise, not
acceleration.

Small, high RPM props are very bad at very low airspeeds. Big, low
RPM props far better as are ducted fans. Note that helicopters use
huge rotors at around 300 RPM to slowly lift the entire aircraft
straight up. Other VTOL aircraft like the F35B use ducted fans which
are at their best below 75 knots.

The tiny prop is the weak link in current motorglider tugs. It
doesn't look as if it would be hard for the designers to lengthen the
landing gear by 25cm and ask Rotax to supply greater gear reduction
for a bigger, slower prop. A bigger prop would address the slow
acceleration.

The acceleration is still limited by the available power vs the total mass
of the glider and tow plane.

Mike Schumann

"bildan" wrote in message
...
On Mar 14, 3:54 am, Markus Gayda wrote:
How about using the propeller as a generator on the way down?
Recharge the battery. (of course you cant do that with a static prop)

THAT would be a real hybrid :-)

CU
Markus

Possibly a better approach is to look carefully at propeller
efficiency in the initial acceleration. In the ground roll where the
prop efficiency unlikely to be more than 25%. Touring motorgliders
like airplanes with fixed props are optimized for cruise, not
acceleration.

Small, high RPM props are very bad at very low airspeeds. Big, low
RPM props far better as are ducted fans. Note that helicopters use
huge rotors at around 300 RPM to slowly lift the entire aircraft
straight up. Other VTOL aircraft like the F35B use ducted fans which
are at their best below 75 knots.

The tiny prop is the weak link in current motorglider tugs. It
doesn't look as if it would be hard for the designers to lengthen the
landing gear by 25cm and ask Rotax to supply greater gear reduction
for a bigger, slower prop. A bigger prop would address the slow
acceleration.