F-4 Question

[MLenoch]

I just saw the History Channel presentation of the Army's 7th Cav. Part of the
segment described the battle at Il Drang, where Col. Moore called Broken Arrow.
The Col. said that the call produced aircraft holding above his position from
5000' to 35,000'.
Two Questions: Is that true, were there that many aircraft engaged and
available for him that day? Also, if a F-4 was up high in the holding pattern,
would the F-4 aircraft shut down an engine to conserve fuel ?(my friends from
A-37 units would routinely shut down angines if the holds were forecast to be
more than 20 minutes; they had confidence of relighting when needed.)
Thx,
VL

[Ed Rasimus]

On 29 May 2004 17:36:07 GMT, (MLenoch) wrote:

>I just saw the History Channel presentation of the Army's 7th Cav. Part of the
>segment described the battle at Il Drang, where Col. Moore called Broken Arrow.
> The Col. said that the call produced aircraft holding above his position from
>5000' to 35,000'.

The "Broken Arrow" call seems unusual in my experience (I've got to
read the book soon, as the movie version might be the source of this.)
The term Broken Arrow is part of a trilogy of terms that were used to
describe mishaps/accidents with nuclear weapons systems. The other two
were Bent Spear and Dull Sword.

I never heard the term used as it was in the movie.

>Two Questions: Is that true, were there that many aircraft engaged and
>available for him that day?

Probably not. In 1965, the build-up was just starting and there
wouldn't have been a lot of airpower available that quickly. The
carrier force would have been up at Yankee Station to the N. and the
bulk of S. Vietnam aircraft would have been F-100s and what used to be
called COIN aircraft (Counter Insurgency) like A-26, B-57, A-1 and
T-28.

The force in Thailand at that time was prohibited by international
agreement with the Thais from operating in SVN.

>Also, if a F-4 was up high in the holding pattern,
>would the F-4 aircraft shut down an engine to conserve fuel ?(my friends from
>A-37 units would routinely shut down angines if the holds were forecast to be
>more than 20 minutes; they had confidence of relighting when needed.)

No, the F-4 didn't use the engine shut-down technique. The A-37 was
AFAIK, the only airplane that did that. The J-85 installation in the
Dragonfly gave it enough power that they could loiter with ordinance
loads on one engine. It wasn't really a function of confidence in
relight so much as excess power availability to carry the load and
maintain maneuver potential.

It's also highly unlikely that any tactical fighter type at the time
could hold at altitudes like FL 350 with ordnance. Certainly not
F-100s. The F-4 with a load of iron would have a tough time much above
FL 280.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Guy Alcala]

Ed Rasimus wrote:

> On 29 May 2004 17:36:07 GMT, (MLenoch) wrote:
>
> >I just saw the History Channel presentation of the Army's 7th Cav. Part of the
> >segment described the battle at Il Drang, where Col. Moore called Broken Arrow.
> > The Col. said that the call produced aircraft holding above his position from
> >5000' to 35,000'.

<snip>

> >Two Questions: Is that true, were there that many aircraft engaged and
> >available for him that day?
>
> Probably not. In 1965, the build-up was just starting and there
> wouldn't have been a lot of airpower available that quickly. The
> carrier force would have been up at Yankee Station to the N. and the
> bulk of S. Vietnam aircraft would have been F-100s and what used to be
> called COIN aircraft (Counter Insurgency) like A-26, B-57, A-1 and
> T-28.

I can't remember for sure, but Intrepid may already have been acting as a limited
attack carrier on Dixie Station at the time, operating A-1s and A-4s only.
Westmoreland wanted his own carrier for the south. Also, all carriers routinely
spent a few days at the start of each deployment/return from port visit on Dixie
Station, hitting targets in SVN, to get back into combat mindset before going north
again.

> The force in Thailand at that time was prohibited by international
> agreement with the Thais from operating in SVN.

<snip>

OTOH, they would send temporary detachments to SVN on occasion. The 563rd TFS sent
six a/c to TSN on 25 June 1965 and flew CAS missions from there (carrying 16 x M117s
each) for a couple of days. The Ia Drang fight was in November IIRR; other units
may well have done the same.

Guy

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
Ed Rasimus > wrote:

> On 29 May 2004 17:36:07 GMT, (MLenoch) wrote:
>
> >I just saw the History Channel presentation of the Army's 7th Cav. Part of
> >the segment described the battle at Il Drang, where Col. Moore called Broken
> >Arrow.
> > The Col. said that the call produced aircraft holding above his position
> > from 5000' to 35,000'.
>
> The "Broken Arrow" call seems unusual in my experience (I've got to
> read the book soon, as the movie version might be the source of this.)

It's in the book, listed in the index.

> The term Broken Arrow is part of a trilogy of terms that were used to
> describe mishaps/accidents with nuclear weapons systems. The other two
> were Bent Spear and Dull Sword.
>
> I never heard the term used as it was in the movie.

From chapter 12:

"Lieutenant Charlie Hastings, our forward air controller, had already
swung into action. Sensing disaster, Hastings made an immediate,
instinctive decision: 'I used the codeword "Broken Arrow", which meant
American unit in contact and in danger of being overrun..."

[Jack G]

From this web site (found by a Google search for "Broken Arrow USAF"

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/MIL/Ch12/mil1204.html

12-4-2. NUCLEAR WEAPON ACCIDENTS ("BROKEN ARROW")

a. The affected military installation (usually the Base Command Post)
shall notify the ARTCC/CERAP of the following in the event of a "Broken
Arrow":

1. State the size of the predicted hazardous area and whether the
airport is closed to normal traffic.

2. State if there is any intent to evacuate base aircraft by use of
"Flush," "Buggy Ride," or other procedures.

3. State the expected duration of the emergency.

4. Advise the ARTCC/CERAP when the emergency is terminated.

Army MAY have had a different meaning but I doubt it.

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On 29 May 2004 17:36:07 GMT, (MLenoch) wrote:
>
> >I just saw the History Channel presentation of the Army's 7th Cav. Part
of the
> >segment described the battle at Il Drang, where Col. Moore called Broken
Arrow.
> > The Col. said that the call produced aircraft holding above his position
from
> >5000' to 35,000'.
>
> The "Broken Arrow" call seems unusual in my experience (I've got to
> read the book soon, as the movie version might be the source of this.)
> The term Broken Arrow is part of a trilogy of terms that were used to
> describe mishaps/accidents with nuclear weapons systems. The other two
> were Bent Spear and Dull Sword.
>
> I never heard the term used as it was in the movie.
>
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> Smithsonian Institution Press
> ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Cub Driver]

> 'I used the codeword "Broken Arrow", which meant
>American unit in contact and in danger of being overrun..."

I always understood it to mean a nuclear weapon had been lost in an
aircraft accident.

I suppose it morphed from "nuke lost" to "worst thing that could
happen" to "they're coming!"?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

Okay, I did a Google search for "broken arrow", and after three (!)
screens mostly about a town in Oklahoma and the movie referenced
above, I came to this:

http://www.atomicmuseum.com/tour/cw4.cfm

Broken Arrow

On January 17, 1966, an SAC B-52 had a mid-air collision with a KC-135
tanker while refueling over Palomares, Spain. The B-52 was carrying
four thermonuclear B28 bombs. The bomber had begun the mission at
Seymour Johnson AFB, North Carolina. The KC-135 had come from the
Moron Air Base, Spain. All four KC-135 crew members were killed, while
four of the seven B-52 crew parachuted to safety.

President Lyndon Johnson, the Department of Defense, the Atomic Energy
Commission, and the Spanish Government received news of the nuclear
accident. Nuclear safety teams were dispatched immediately. Within
hours, the 16th Air Force had located the three B28 bombs that landed
on the shore. However, the fourth bomb was missing; it was not found
for 80 days. High explosives in two bombs had detonated on impact.
Plutonium dust had spread over several hundred acres. One reassuring
fact emerged from this incident: inherent safety features designed and
built by Atomic Energy Commission contractors ensured that no nuclear
explosion occurred.

**************************************

So I reckon the term was fairly specialized, at least at as far as
Google is concerned.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com