Re: The Vietnam Memorial Wall

[Ed Rasimus]

On 31 May 2004 18:45:49 GMT, Ian MacLure > wrote:

wrote in
:
>
>> The Vietnam Memorial Wall
>
> The what?
>
> IBM
>
> Seriously though unless this posting was aimed at bore Eurotrash
> its kind of pointless and/or redundant.

Actually that would be the Vietnam Veterans Memorial. And, it shows
the names of US military that were killed in that war. Not those from
other services.

Here's an excerpt from "Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights" coming out in
Feb '05 that's my take on the wall:

"Washington D. C. is a city of beautiful buildings and soaring
monuments. The capital dominates with its majestic dome and broad
stairways. The Supreme Court similarly rises among the stately trees
with strength in its columns and classic façade. The memorials to the
greats of our nations are white, broad and tall befitting the stature
of the military and political leaders which they honor. But, the Wall
is black and buried, a depression in the ground symbolizing the
depression of the nation that did not win the war or respect the men
who fought it. You can see the Washington Monument from miles away and
you won't need a map to find Lincoln or Jefferson or the World War II
memorial, but you could walk within a hundred yards of the Wall and
never see it. We seem to want to hide it, maybe hoping that an
obligation has been fulfilled but no one wants to admit that the
obligation existed in the first place.

"The names are listed in a paper directory, dog-eared and dirty from
thousands of hands searching through it for a name of a friend or
family member who was lost. It's chained to a plywood pedestal like a
small town phone book at a gas station pay-phone, almost as an
afterthought by the government that maybe some visitor might want to
know where on the wall among the 58,000 names their special person is
memorialized. But, they do want to know. They come from across the
country to see and to feel and to remember. Some say they come for
closure or to heal, but that is only a few. More come for respect and
to belatedly honor the fallen. And some come out of guilt that they
hadn't gone or hadn't done the right thing at the time.

"The sidewalk along the brooding black marble wall slopes gradually,
there are no steps along the way. It's almost a metaphor for the
gradualism that led us to failure. It marks the descent into the
immorality of sending men to die for a cause that the nation wants to
ignore. But when you reach the deepest point, the walk rises again and
gradually, over time returns to the level of the street and the city.
All things pass and maybe this represents a return to normalcy and
patriotism and honor; belief in your country's might and the
principles that the other soaring white monuments of Washington
commemorate. Maybe.

"Children visiting the Wall from the inner cities of America laugh and
tussle on the grass, showing little of the solemnity that we might
wish for this spot. They don't know these many years later exactly
what this is all about. They don't make a great distinction between
Verdun and Vietnam. But, that guy over there, the one in the dark suit
with the sunglasses, he knows the difference. The gray-haired fellow
coming down the walk with his grand-son holding his hand, he knows
many of these names. The heavy-set fellow in the West Point
sweatshirt, sitting on the park bench with the cane by his side was
there. The one in the tattered field jacket, with the beard and dirty
matted long hair? No, probably not. Odds are he's ten years too young
and simply another poseur and "wannabe." There are a lot of them these
days. You can buy the jacket in any town and the medals can be found
on eBay. But, that's the stereotype; the homeless, drug or alcohol
addicted hulk destroyed by the war. The reality is that the great
majority of the survivors of the war are just quiet old men, living
out their lives and remembering."



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[John Mullen]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On 31 May 2004 18:45:49 GMT, Ian MacLure > wrote:
>
> wrote in
> :
> >
> >> The Vietnam Memorial Wall
> >
> > The what?
> >
> > IBM
> >
> > Seriously though unless this posting was aimed at bore Eurotrash
> > its kind of pointless and/or redundant.
>
> Actually that would be the Vietnam Veterans Memorial. And, it shows
> the names of US military that were killed in that war. Not those from
> other services.
>
> Here's an excerpt from "Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights" coming out in
> Feb '05 that's my take on the wall:
>
(snip)

It would of course require a very much larger wall to list the Vitnamese who
died in that previous ill-judged intervention.

John

[Guy Alcala]

Ed Rasimus wrote:

<snip>

> "The sidewalk along the brooding black marble wall slopes gradually,
> there are no steps along the way. It's almost a metaphor for the
> gradualism that led us to failure. It marks the descent into the
> immorality of sending men to die for a cause that the nation wants to
> ignore. But when you reach the deepest point, the walk rises again and
> gradually, over time returns to the level of the street and the city.
> All things pass and maybe this represents a return to normalcy and
> patriotism and honor; belief in your country's might and the
> principles that the other soaring white monuments of Washington
> commemorate. Maybe.

Gee, Ed, you can see what you see, but don't you think that making the
Memorial be accessible to those in wheelchairs (i.e. no stairs), undoubtedly
including a considerable number of Vietnam vets who wish to visit it, might
have played a part? I dont remember if the ADA was in effect at the time of
its design and construction, but things were certainly moving that way.

Guy

[Cub Driver]

>But, the Wall
>is black and buried, a depression in the ground symbolizing the
>depression of the nation that did not win the war or respect the men
>who fought it.

I think you're wrong on this one, Ed. To me the Wall is the most
beautiful and most moving monument anywhere in the world, the only one
I return to, and the only one that ever made me cry.

In 1989 I went skiing in Switzerland with my daughter, and on the
return trip we got put in separate seats. I was in biz class beside a
Swiss on his way to Washington. I suggested that he visit the Wall,
and set out to explain the concept to him. And by golly I burst into
tears right there. Happily the drinks were free in Swissair biz class.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

[Stephen Harding]

John Mullen wrote:

> "Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>On 31 May 2004 18:45:49 GMT, Ian MacLure > wrote:
>>
>>
wrote in
:
>>>
>>>
>>>>The Vietnam Memorial Wall
>>>
>>> The what?
>>>
>>> IBM
>>>
>>> Seriously though unless this posting was aimed at bore Eurotrash
>>> its kind of pointless and/or redundant.
>>
>>Actually that would be the Vietnam Veterans Memorial. And, it shows
>>the names of US military that were killed in that war. Not those from
>>other services.
>>
>>Here's an excerpt from "Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights" coming out in
>>Feb '05 that's my take on the wall:
>
> (snip)
>
> It would of course require a very much larger wall to list the Vitnamese who
> died in that previous ill-judged intervention.

Nothing to stop the Vietnamese from building one.


SMH

[Ed Rasimus]

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 04:17:09 GMT, Guy Alcala
> wrote:

>Ed Rasimus wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> "The sidewalk along the brooding black marble wall slopes gradually,
>> there are no steps along the way. It's almost a metaphor for the
>> gradualism that led us to failure. It marks the descent into the
>> immorality of sending men to die for a cause that the nation wants to
>> ignore. But when you reach the deepest point, the walk rises again and
>> gradually, over time returns to the level of the street and the city.
>> All things pass and maybe this represents a return to normalcy and
>> patriotism and honor; belief in your country's might and the
>> principles that the other soaring white monuments of Washington
>> commemorate. Maybe.
>
>Gee, Ed, you can see what you see, but don't you think that making the
>Memorial be accessible to those in wheelchairs (i.e. no stairs), undoubtedly
>including a considerable number of Vietnam vets who wish to visit it, might
>have played a part? I dont remember if the ADA was in effect at the time of
>its design and construction, but things were certainly moving that way.
>
>Guy

ADA was in effect at that time. So, we haven't removed the steps at
the Jefferson and Lincoln Memorials. We just dedicated the WW II
Memorial which is white and above ground and has steps in several
places. We look up to the USMC Iwo Jima Flag-Raising statue. We stand
face to face on level ground with the Korean War Memorial.

It's a metaphor I'm using. One of those literary thingies.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Ed Rasimus]

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 05:31:27 -0400, Cub Driver
> wrote:

>
>>But, the Wall
>>is black and buried, a depression in the ground symbolizing the
>>depression of the nation that did not win the war or respect the men
>>who fought it.
>
>I think you're wrong on this one, Ed. To me the Wall is the most
>beautiful and most moving monument anywhere in the world, the only one
>I return to, and the only one that ever made me cry.

Dan,

I didn't intend to, but I cried as well. Partly from the memories of
old comrades and partly from the frustration with those who did that
to us.

Interestingly enough on Saturday just past, the Denver Post ran an
editorial/obit lionizing David Dellinger of Chicago Seven fame and
showing him in passionate embrace with Jerry Rubin. He was lauded for
his war resistance from WW II through Vietnam and the headline was
about "how much Dellinger taught us."

I sent a letter to the editor asking if the intent was to insult the
veterans of WW II on the day of dedication of their memorial or more
broadly to insult all veterans on Memorial Day weekend.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[John Mullen]

"Stephen Harding" > wrote in message
...
> John Mullen wrote:
>
> > "Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>On 31 May 2004 18:45:49 GMT, Ian MacLure > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> wrote in
> :
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>The Vietnam Memorial Wall
> >>>
> >>> The what?
> >>>
> >>> IBM
> >>>
> >>> Seriously though unless this posting was aimed at bore Eurotrash
> >>> its kind of pointless and/or redundant.
> >>
> >>Actually that would be the Vietnam Veterans Memorial. And, it shows
> >>the names of US military that were killed in that war. Not those from
> >>other services.
> >>
> >>Here's an excerpt from "Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights" coming out in
> >>Feb '05 that's my take on the wall:
> >
> > (snip)
> >
> > It would of course require a very much larger wall to list the Vitnamese
who
> > died in that previous ill-judged intervention.
>
> Nothing to stop the Vietnamese from building one.

True.

I wonder if they have.

John

[Billy Beck]

Ed Rasimus > wrote:

>On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 05:31:27 -0400, Cub Driver
> wrote:

>>>But, the Wall
>>>is black and buried, a depression in the ground symbolizing the
>>>depression of the nation that did not win the war or respect the men
>>>who fought it.
>>
>>I think you're wrong on this one, Ed. To me the Wall is the most
>>beautiful and most moving monument anywhere in the world, the only one
>>I return to, and the only one that ever made me cry.
>
>Dan,
>
>I didn't intend to, but I cried as well. Partly from the memories of
>old comrades and partly from the frustration with those who did that
>to us.

That Memorial is *always* the top item on my to-do list whenever
I have a spare moment in Washington.

And I've seen it at every hour of the day, but it is never so
powerful as in the middle of the night.


Billy


http://www.two--four.net/weblog.php

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: The Vietnam Memorial Wall
>From: Billy Beck
>Date: 6/1/04 8:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>Ed Rasimus > wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 05:31:27 -0400, Cub Driver
> wrote:
>
>>>>But, the Wall
>>>>is black and buried, a depression in the ground symbolizing the
>>>>depression of the nation that did not win the war or respect the men
>>>>who fought it.
>>>
>>>I think you're wrong on this one, Ed. To me the Wall is the most
>>>beautiful and most moving monument anywhere in the world, the only one
>>>I return to, and the only one that ever made me cry.
>>
>>Dan,
>>
>>I didn't intend to, but I cried as well. Partly from the memories of
>>old comrades and partly from the frustration with those who did that
>>to us.
>
> That Memorial is *always* the top item on my to-do list whenever
>I have a spare moment in Washington.
>
> And I've seen it at every hour of the day, but it is never so
>powerful as in the middle of the night.
>
>
>Billy
>
>
>http://www.two--four.net/weblog.php


I never go to war memorials. I never go to military cemetaries. I just start
bawling. Guess that is just that part of me that is pure coward.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Yeff]

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 11:46:09 -0400, Billy Beck wrote:

> That Memorial is *always* the top item on my to-do list whenever
> I have a spare moment in Washington.
>
> And I've seen it at every hour of the day, but it is never so
> powerful as in the middle of the night.

I've been there three times so far. It's never exactly where I expect it
to be and it always manages to sneak up on me. I'm always looking far
forward when, with a start, I realize it's slowly been rising up next to me
off to my right (I always approach it from the direction of the Capitol).

--

-Jeff B.
yeff at erols dot com

[Kevin Brooks]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 04:17:09 GMT, Guy Alcala
> > wrote:
>
> >Ed Rasimus wrote:
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> >> "The sidewalk along the brooding black marble wall slopes gradually,
> >> there are no steps along the way. It's almost a metaphor for the
> >> gradualism that led us to failure. It marks the descent into the
> >> immorality of sending men to die for a cause that the nation wants to
> >> ignore. But when you reach the deepest point, the walk rises again and
> >> gradually, over time returns to the level of the street and the city.
> >> All things pass and maybe this represents a return to normalcy and
> >> patriotism and honor; belief in your country's might and the
> >> principles that the other soaring white monuments of Washington
> >> commemorate. Maybe.
> >
> >Gee, Ed, you can see what you see, but don't you think that making the
> >Memorial be accessible to those in wheelchairs (i.e. no stairs),
undoubtedly
> >including a considerable number of Vietnam vets who wish to visit it,
might
> >have played a part? I dont remember if the ADA was in effect at the time
of
> >its design and construction, but things were certainly moving that way.
> >
> >Guy
>
> ADA was in effect at that time.

I don't think so, Ed. ADA was enacted in 1990, about eight years after the
Memorial was dedicated. ISTR that the Federal government had its own access
guidelines for new construction in place well before ADA, though; as a young
cadet doing a Cadet Troop Leader Training tour with the Corps of Engineers
construction office at Robbins AFB in 1984, I can recall being somewhat
puzzled by the requirement to make a PAVE PAWS radar facility handicap
accessible and were providing handicap parking spots in front of it as well.

Brooks

So, we haven't removed the steps at
> the Jefferson and Lincoln Memorials. We just dedicated the WW II
> Memorial which is white and above ground and has steps in several
> places. We look up to the USMC Iwo Jima Flag-Raising statue. We stand
> face to face on level ground with the Korean War Memorial.
>
> It's a metaphor I'm using. One of those literary thingies.
>
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> Smithsonian Institution Press
> ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Billy Beck]

On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 11:59:54 -0400, Yeff > wrote:

>On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 11:46:09 -0400, Billy Beck wrote:
>
>> That Memorial is *always* the top item on my to-do list whenever
>> I have a spare moment in Washington.
>>
>> And I've seen it at every hour of the day, but it is never so
>> powerful as in the middle of the night.
>
>I've been there three times so far. It's never exactly where I expect it
>to be and it always manages to sneak up on me. I'm always looking far
>forward when, with a start, I realize it's slowly been rising up next to me
>off to my right (I always approach it from the direction of the Capitol).

It used to catch me by surprise, too. I've gotten used to it.

Here is something that I discovered the last time I was there:

If you consider the Wall (in plan view) as two long quadrangles
sharing the same line at the angle in the center of the Wall, that
line points almost directly at the statue of Albert Einstein at the
National Academy of Sciences, across Constitution Avenue. If you
stood on the sidewalk immediately adjacent to the statue and facing
with your shoulders parallel to Constitution Avenue, and then turned
to your left to about 10 o'clock and began walking, you would walk
about three hundred yards before stepping right off the top of the
Wall at its angle.


Billy

http://www.two--four.net/weblog.php

[Howard Berkowitz]

I often discover new things on new visits. On one occasion, I was
playing tourguide to a Swedish friend, who was a teenager during the
war. We parked at the Lincoln Memorial, went through it, waited for my
usual sniffles to stop (the statue is eerily magnificent), and proceeded
to the Wall.

Just as we started down the sidewalk, Kate stopped, glanced back at the
Lincoln Memorial, and said "how appropriate! is the placement of these
two mere coincidence?"

I had no idea what she meant.

"Weren't the Civil War and the Viet Nam War the times of greatest
internal turmoil of your country?"

She married an American, and is a graduate teaching assistant while she
works on her doctorate. Since the major classes she teaches are US
history, I'd be fascinated to hear how she presents this. Yes, she has
what many would consider typical European social democratic ideas, but
is also quite fair in looking at all sides -- and has lived and studied
here long enough to have more detailed knowledge of US history than many
native-born citizens.

[Jeff Crowell]

ArtKramr wrote:
> I never go to war memorials. I never go to military cemetaries. I just
start
> bawling. Guess that is just that part of me that is pure coward.

"Coward"? Like hell, Art.

Speaking for myself only, I see no shame or cowardice (or anything
other than honorable) in feeling the presence of those ghosts... I think
the world would be a far better place if more people felt that way.

Far as that goes, I don't think anyone should be elegible for election
to any office higher than dogcatcher if they can keep their composure
in such a place.


Jeff

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, Cub Driver
> writes
>
>>But, the Wall
>>is black and buried, a depression in the ground symbolizing the
>>depression of the nation that did not win the war or respect the men
>>who fought it.
>
>I think you're wrong on this one, Ed. To me the Wall is the most
>beautiful and most moving monument anywhere in the world, the only one
>I return to, and the only one that ever made me cry.

I will say that the Vietnam memorial didn't have that effect on me. But
then, it wasn't my war, and it's only through here I know folk who
fought there.

That said: it made me pause and scan the names, it made me pause and
respect the fallen, and if I didn't already have a passing acquaintance
with the conflict I'd have sought out more information.

For a foreigner, it did its job. It's a very good monument.

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

[Cub Driver]

>For a foreigner, it did its job.

Maya Lin was born in Athens, Ohio. Can't get more American than that!

She was a student at Yale when she won the Vietnam Memorial
competition.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

[Jim McCartan]

After 30 years have passed since I came home - I still can't go to the
wall without memories and tears.

Jim

[George Z. Bush]

"Jim McCartan" > wrote in message
om...
> After 30 years have passed since I came home - I still can't go to the
> wall without memories and tears.
>
> Jim

You have my deepest sympathies. All those lives wasted just to prove that the
"domino theory" we were told was threatening our national existence was
fallacious and untrue.

After all was said and done, the North Vietnamese won the war, we left Viet Nam,
and the horrible Communists did NOT take over all of Asia. We could have let
them take over their country without sacrificing 58,000 American lives, not to
mention the hundreds of thousands of wounded and maimed young Americans and we
wouldn't have been any the worse for it.

Hindsight is wonderful in providing insight, providing one is willing to learn
from it. Those unwilling to learn from it are doomed to repeat the experience.
The current batch of Kerry bashers haven't figured out yet that he was right and
the rest of us who thought at the time that we belonged in that dogfight were
wrong.

George Z.

[Ron]

>
>Hindsight is wonderful in providing insight, providing one is willing to
>learn
>from it. Those unwilling to learn from it are doomed to repeat the
>experience.
>The current batch of Kerry bashers haven't figured out yet that he was right
>and
>the rest of us who thought at the time that we belonged in that dogfight were
>wrong.
>
>George Z.

But he was not right in labeling vets as war criminals acting like Genghis
Khan, or his dubious throwing the medals story of which there are at least 4
versions given by him, or when his group he headed was sending fake vets to
testify about war crimes and atrocities.


Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)
Silver City Tanker Base

[George Z. Bush]

Ron wrote:
>> Hindsight is wonderful in providing insight, providing one is willing to
>> learn
>> from it. Those unwilling to learn from it are doomed to repeat the
>> experience.
>> The current batch of Kerry bashers haven't figured out yet that he was right
>> and
>> the rest of us who thought at the time that we belonged in that dogfight were
>> wrong.
>>
>> George Z.
>
> But he was not right in labeling vets as war criminals acting like Genghis
> Khan, or his dubious throwing the medals story of which there are at least 4
> versions given by him, or when his group he headed was sending fake vets to
> testify about war crimes and atrocities.

If we can forgive Cong. Henry Hyde (R-Ohio) his self-styled "youthful
indiscretion" for a five year long affair with a married mother at the age of 45
that destroyed her family, we Christian Conservatives ought to be able to
forgive Kerry for overloading his mouth when he was in his early 20s. I
seriously doubt that there are very many of us who haven't said things in our
younger days that we didn't later regret. Those who deny that they ever did
such things are merely short on memory.

George Z.

[OXMORON1]

George wrote:
>If we can forgive Cong. Henry Hyde (R-Ohio) his self-styled "youthful
>indiscretion" for a five year long affair with a married mother at the age of
>45
>that destroyed her family, we Christian Conservatives ought to be able to
>forgive Kerry for overloading his mouth when he was in his early 20s. I
>seriously doubt that there are very many of us who haven't said things in our
>younger days that we didn't later regret. Those who deny that they ever did
>such things are merely short on memory.
>
It isn't Kerry's words of 30 years that bother me so much. I probably have been
wrong as many times if not more. What does bother me about Kerry is his
inconsistency and those damn shoes he wears....the flip flops.

oxmoron
MFE

[George Z. Bush]

OXMORON1 wrote:
> George wrote:
>> If we can forgive Cong. Henry Hyde (R-Ohio) his self-styled "youthful
>> indiscretion" for a five year long affair with a married mother at the age of
>> 45
>> that destroyed her family, we Christian Conservatives ought to be able to
>> forgive Kerry for overloading his mouth when he was in his early 20s. I
>> seriously doubt that there are very many of us who haven't said things in our
>> younger days that we didn't later regret. Those who deny that they ever did
>> such things are merely short on memory.
>>
> It isn't Kerry's words of 30 years that bother me so much. I probably have
> been wrong as many times if not more. What does bother me about Kerry is his
> inconsistency and those damn shoes he wears....the flip flops.

If flip flops are what bothers you, you need to take a close look at our
president because he's made far more of them than Kerry ever did, even if he
hasn't been on the national scene nearly as long. Do you need a list, or are
you curious enough to do your own searching?

George Z.
>
> oxmoron
> MFE

[Frijoles]

I think the foreigner he was referring to was himself, not Maya Lin.

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> >For a foreigner, it did its job.
>
> Maya Lin was born in Athens, Ohio. Can't get more American than that!
>
> She was a student at Yale when she won the Vietnam Memorial
> competition.
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
> The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

[mah]

Billy Beck wrote:
>
> That Memorial is *always* the top item on my to-do list whenever
> I have a spare moment in Washington.
>
> And I've seen it at every hour of the day, but it is never so
> powerful as in the middle of the night.
>
> Billy
>
> http://www.two--four.net/weblog.php

I'll agree with you. It's always on my list.

The most moving visit was just after the dedication. The memorial
sidewalks were not completed. We walked on wooden planking to see the
memorial. It was a foggy night and the city lights disappeared as we
descended towards the center of the wall. Someone was reading the names
on the wall in a measured pace.

All I remember was a disembodied voice

Williams, Charles R
Roberts, Thomas C
Frederichs, Allan P

-----------------

Another moving experience is to walk into Arlington Cemetary from the
visitor's center towards the Tomb of the Unknowns. If the wind is
carrying from the west, you hear the footsteps of the guard for quite a
distance. It drifts over the rows of stones.
--------------

MAH

[Alan Minyard]

On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 06:25:26 -0500, mah > wrote:

>Billy Beck wrote:
>>
>> That Memorial is *always* the top item on my to-do list whenever
>> I have a spare moment in Washington.
>>
>> And I've seen it at every hour of the day, but it is never so
>> powerful as in the middle of the night.
>>
>> Billy
>>
>> http://www.two--four.net/weblog.php
>
>I'll agree with you. It's always on my list.
>
>The most moving visit was just after the dedication. The memorial
>sidewalks were not completed. We walked on wooden planking to see the
>memorial. It was a foggy night and the city lights disappeared as we
>descended towards the center of the wall. Someone was reading the names
>on the wall in a measured pace.
>
>All I remember was a disembodied voice
>
>Williams, Charles R
>Roberts, Thomas C
>Frederichs, Allan P
>
>-----------------
>
>Another moving experience is to walk into Arlington Cemetary from the
>visitor's center towards the Tomb of the Unknowns. If the wind is
>carrying from the west, you hear the footsteps of the guard for quite a
>distance. It drifts over the rows of stones.
>--------------
>
>MAH

A visit to the Punch Bowl brings tears to my eyes every time. I used to
go there whenever we were in port at Pearl and when I was "just passin'
through".

Al Minyard

[Cub Driver]

So what do you guys think of the statues?

The first time I was at the Wall, there were no statues. The second
time, the three soldiers. I was there most recently in January, when
presumably the nurse(s?) had been added, but apparently I didn't
notice.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, Cub Driver
> writes
>
>So what do you guys think of the statues?
>
>The first time I was at the Wall, there were no statues. The second
>time, the three soldiers. I was there most recently in January, when
>presumably the nurse(s?) had been added, but apparently I didn't
>notice.

The soldiers were there in late 2000 when we visited. Don't recall any
nurses, but there was a bronze of three soldiers facing the Wall when I
was there.

I liked them and they were good work, but the Wall was what grabbed and
held the attention. On the other hand, the statues were a reminder that
every one of those names had a face.

I'm not much on artistic analysis; I just know that the Vietnam Memorial
moved me deeply. (The Korean memorial got to me as well, mind you)

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

[Ed Rasimus]

On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 05:29:04 -0400, Cub Driver
> wrote:

>
>So what do you guys think of the statues?
>
>The first time I was at the Wall, there were no statues. The second
>time, the three soldiers. I was there most recently in January, when
>presumably the nurse(s?) had been added, but apparently I didn't
>notice.

The statues are extraneous at best--the addy little to the impact of
the memorial, and politically correct at worst. The implication that
the losses were shared equitably among the races and exclusively by
the Army is wrong. Might want to consider Burkitt's "Stolen Valor" for
the stats on much of this.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[John Keeney]

"Paul J. Adam" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'm not much on artistic analysis; I just know that the Vietnam Memorial
> moved me deeply. (The Korean memorial got to me as well, mind you)

I've not been to DC for nearly 30 years, so I've obviously not seen
the Vietnam Memorial.
The Washington Monument was interesting as a structure. The
Lincoln memorial was impressive and moving, Jefferson's "right".
Arlington, well, quieting.
But I was by Mt Rushmore some years back and it moved me
in a way beyond any thing I expected or can understand even now.

[Cub Driver]

>I liked them and they were good work, but the Wall was what grabbed and
>held the attention. On the other hand, the statues were a reminder that
>every one of those names had a face.

That's a good thought. Thanks.

I put a good face on them also (as it were!). What I figured was: here
are these three guys, back from a patrol, surprised as hell to
discover that 58,000 of their countrymen are dead in the war.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>The statues are extraneous at best--the addy little to the impact of
>the memorial, and politically correct at worst.

Yes. Excruciating.

> The implication that
>the losses were shared equitably among the races and exclusively by
>the Army is wrong.

I didn't mind that so much. (It would be hard to put a statute of a
F-105 there.) I didn't think of the grunts as being exclusively army;
they could stand for the marines as well.

But what a keg of worms you open up! Now the medics will be asking to
be included along with the nurses....

> Might want to consider Burkitt's "Stolen Valor" for
>the stats on much of this.

I'm astonished as to the popularity of this book, which I discovered
only recently. It had a real jump during the Kerry arguments, up to
#300 on Amazon if I'm not mistaken. Now it's fallen back.

www.warbirdforum.com/valor.htm



all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

[Mary Shafer]

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 04:17:09 GMT, Guy Alcala
> wrote:

> Gee, Ed, you can see what you see, but don't you think that making the
> Memorial be accessible to those in wheelchairs (i.e. no stairs), undoubtedly
> including a considerable number of Vietnam vets who wish to visit it, might
> have played a part? I dont remember if the ADA was in effect at the time of
> its design and construction, but things were certainly moving that way.

It is wheelchair accessible. The grades are less than 1:12, per
international standards. There are no steps anywhere.

Ken and I were first there years ago, not long after it opened, and we
had no difficulty getting him everywhere at the monument. It hasn't
changed in the ensuing years.

By the way, Ed, the Park Service replaces the directory regularly,
like once every four weeks in the summer (tourist season) and somewhat
less often in the winter. They check its condition daily and replace
it right away if needed.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

[Cub Driver]

>By the way, Ed, the Park Service replaces the directory regularly,
>like once every four weeks in the summer (tourist season) and somewhat
>less often in the winter. They check its condition daily and replace
>it right away if needed.

I was puzzled by the references to the tattered directory, here and in
a video about the Wall. Both times I've visited it (most recently in
January), it struck me as pristine. Apparently I've struck it just
after it was replaced.

The Wall is the only man-made thing in the United States that has ever
given me the reverential feeling that I often experienced in the great
cathedrals of Europe. I don't think this is entirely because I knew
some of the men whose names are engraved on it.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

[Ed Rasimus]

On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 05:46:26 -0400, Cub Driver
> wrote:

>
>>By the way, Ed, the Park Service replaces the directory regularly,
>>like once every four weeks in the summer (tourist season) and somewhat
>>less often in the winter. They check its condition daily and replace
>>it right away if needed.
>
>I was puzzled by the references to the tattered directory, here and in
>a video about the Wall. Both times I've visited it (most recently in
>January), it struck me as pristine. Apparently I've struck it just
>after it was replaced.
>
>The Wall is the only man-made thing in the United States that has ever
>given me the reverential feeling that I often experienced in the great
>cathedrals of Europe. I don't think this is entirely because I knew
>some of the men whose names are engraved on it.
>
>all the best -- Dan Ford
>email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
>The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
>The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
>Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

YMMV. When I was there, the paper directory was dog-earred and
tattered. The unpainted plywood easel was distinctly makeshift and
seemed out of place. It looked like an afterthought and was definitely
"least cost provider."

Why can't there be an electronic kiosk? Touchscreen, alphabetical
query, returns graphic display showing location and panel
number...This isn't rocket science.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Chris Mark]

>From: Cub Driver

>The Wall is the only man-made thing in the United States that has ever
>given me the reverential feeling that I often experienced in the great
>cathedrals of Europe.

Quite a contrast with the new WW2 memorial which I visited recently. It did
nothing for me at all. Funny thing is, for years I thought there _was_ a WW2
memorial in DC. I was thinking of the Marines raising the flag statue, which
says all that needs to be said about that war. Sometimes less _is_ more.


Chris Mark

[David Lesher]

Cub Driver > writes:


>So what do you guys think of the statues?

>The first time I was at the Wall, there were no statues. The second
>time, the three soldiers. I was there most recently in January, when
>presumably the nurse(s?) had been added, but apparently I didn't
>notice.


As I recall, it was the infamous James Watt who demanded the
three soldiers be added. He did not care for the Wall at all;
perhaps because it was designed by "a foreigner"....
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[David Lesher]

Ed Rasimus > writes:


>YMMV. When I was there, the paper directory was dog-earred and
>tattered. The unpainted plywood easel was distinctly makeshift and
>seemed out of place. It looked like an afterthought and was definitely
>"least cost provider."

>Why can't there be an electronic kiosk? Touchscreen, alphabetical
>query, returns graphic display showing location and panel
>number...This isn't rocket science.

The Wall is not Rocket Science, either. Many, including me, feel it
is a statement to simplicity; something lacking in the war itself.

I can not imagine anything more jarring and out of place there than
a ...touchscreen.. display. After all, the war itself proved that
technology can't solve every problem.

I don't recall if the directory was originally furnished by the
NPS, or the volunteers. Now, as I recall, there are multiple
err podiums with the list protected by a glass shield.

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[David Lesher]

(Chris Mark) writes:

>>The Wall is the only man-made thing in the United States that has ever
>>given me the reverential feeling that I often experienced in the great
>>cathedrals of Europe.

>Quite a contrast with the new WW2 memorial which I visited recently. It did
>nothing for me at all. Funny thing is, for years I thought there _was_ a WW2
>memorial in DC. I was thinking of the Marines raising the flag statue, which
>says all that needs to be said about that war. Sometimes less _is_ more.

I used to eat lunch at the Iwo Jima statute.

I could rant re: the new monstro^H^H memorial. But I'll settle for
this. Since the backers DEMANDED [1] it be dead spang in the middle
of the Mall; the result is it must be closed and covered on 4 July.
See, it's where the fireworks might land and damage it....
<www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ articles/A56459-2004Jun20.html>




[1] The big controversy was/is over its location; not its existence.
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Cub Driver]

>I don't recall if the directory was originally furnished by the
>NPS, or the volunteers. Now, as I recall, there are multiple
>err podiums with the list protected by a glass shield.

I don't remember, either. I doubt Maya Lin came up with that solution.
(Maybe she didn't realize there was a problem! She was thinking of the
Wall as something to do with the country, whereas individuals who go
there are often thinking of it as having to do with other individuals,
whose names they know. This will of course be less true as time goes
on. If I went to Normandy, I wouldn't be looking for the grave marker
of any one person.)

I recall only the one directory, on the opposite side from the
statues. (Personally, I find the directory--paper or electronic--less
jarring than the statues, which really don't belong there. I'm with
Lin on that one.)

Her notion of arranging the names by date is actually a very powerful
one, especially to people like me who were in Vietnam (as a civilian,
in my case) early. By happenstance, I recognized the name of a
helicopter gunner, Ted Winowitz, whose name was at eye level where I
stopped, knowing that this was approximately 1964. (He was declared
dead in December, though the helo went down in June.) Looking at the
names above his was a very significant experience, knowing that very
likely I'd run across some others there but didn't know their names.

Incidentally, at least one name is out of order. The first American
serviceman now recognized to have been killed in Vietnam was Capt
Harry Cramer, a Green Beret, in October 1957.
www.warbirdforum.com/vanguard.htm

As the first, there was no room for him, so he had to be tucked in
where there was a blank, which was done in 1987.
all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

[Jim McCartan]

As far as the notion of electronic directories...

I had the occasion to visit my Uncles grave for the first time since
his burial. At Saratoga National they have an interactive terminal at
the welcome center. One can locate the gravesite by name, and other
ways, and then print a map of the cemetary. It made finding his site
very easy. It is also necessary as they are doing a very brisk
business with WWII vets passing away at a rate over 1,000 per day and
keeping up on paper would be impossible.

An electronic directory would be a plus at any of our monuments.

Just my 5 cents worth.

Jim