Spitfire Controls

[N-6]

Anyone out there that has flown or been in the cockpit of a
Supermarine Spitfire? I am wondering about the circular control
"handle" particular to the British fighter and how it seems to me that
it would have been quite awkward or uncomfortable to use (compared to
a conventional fighter stick) especially in a dogfighting situation
(i.e. when manuvering and firing guns at the same time). Due to the
placement of the triggers, the pilot would apparently need to grip the
handle with his right hand at the top of the circle (at the 12 o'clock
position) and fire using his thumb. I would think this would get
tiring on the wrist and perhaps make precision aiming difficult. So
what's it really like? I am unable to tell exaclty from pictures, but
are there seperate triggers to fire the cannons only, the machine guns
only, and both the cannons and MGs at the same time?

Also, is it true that the prop pitch/rpm control was automatic on the
Spit, so the pilot did not have to worry about it during a dogfight
unlike most other allied prop-fighters? I believe the German fighters
(109 & 190) also had automatic control of this function. I've only
flown a couple fixed-pitch propellor Cessna's in my life, but I'd
imagine having to simultaneously manage both the engine throttle and
propellor pitch/rpm during a dogfight would be somewhat of a heavy
workload for the pilot, so in this respect I gather the Spitfire would
have been easier to control than most other prop-fighters.

[N329DF]

It is very easy to fly, for me even more comfortable than a stick. I can't say
about in combat, but I have flown in Tiger Moth, Harvard Mk.II and Spitfire TR
IX, and all had circle control sticks.
Matt Gunsch,
A&P,IA,Private Pilot
Riding member of the
2003 world champion drill team
Arizona Precision Motorcycle Drill Team
GWRRA,NRA,GOA

[Dave Eadsforth]

In article >, N329DF
> writes
>It is very easy to fly, for me even more comfortable than a stick. I can't say
>about in combat, but I have flown in Tiger Moth, Harvard Mk.II and Spitfire TR
>IX,

Nice!

> and all had circle control sticks.
> Matt Gunsch,
> A&P,IA,Private Pilot
> Riding member of the
> 2003 world champion drill team
>Arizona Precision Motorcycle Drill Team
> GWRRA,NRA,GOA
>

At one point, RAF fighter pilots were advised to keep both hands on the
control column while firing - a spade handle made this easy, as was
applying a lot of control force when necessary. Plus it was
ambidextrous (did I spell that ok?) and easy to swap hands quickly
without having to overlap fingers (and trapping glove leather; very
annoying...). It also made it very easy to operate a stick-mounted
brake handle as this could be mounted to pivot side-to-side rather than
front-to-back - very natural to the fingers.

All in all, I wonder why we stopped using them - didn't look flash
enough for the export market I suppose...

By way of comparison I have an early Harrier control column handle. It
is ergonomic hell - hard to reach some controls and difficult to use
without pressing things you don't want to press.

On a trivial point, I have a 30 year old US-made screwdriver which has a
spherical handle and can thus be gripped with the whole hand - it is a
dream to use compared to the straight and/or or pistol-grip types - you
can really apply torque and pressure in comfort. Suspect the spade
handle shared some of these ergonomic characteristics.

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

[Cub Driver]

>right hand at the top of the circle (at the 12 o'clock
>position) and fire using his thumb. I would think this would get
>tiring on the wrist

I don't think Dowding expected his pilots to survive long enough to
sue him for carpal tunnel syndrome :)

As to the main question, it's a good one but I can't help. I can't
imagine a fighter without a stick. As a matter of fact, I don't
particularly like using a wheel on any aircraft, especially when
taxiiing.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

[Cub Driver]

>On a trivial point, I have a 30 year old US-made screwdriver which has a
>spherical handle and can thus be gripped with the whole hand - it is a
>dream to use compared to the straight and/or or pistol-grip types -

I inherited one of these from my father, though spherical is not how I
would describe the handle. More an elongated oval, made of wood, with
a metal top to defend it from the inevitable carpenter who would use
it as a chisel.

It was older than 30 years, however. My father bought his tools in the
late 1930s / early 1940s. My son-in-law still uses some of them.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

[Alistair Gunn]

N-6 twisted the electrons to say:
> I am unable to tell exaclty from pictures, but are there seperate
> triggers to fire the cannons only, the machine guns only, and both the
> cannons and MGs at the same time?

Early spitfires had machine guns only, and had a round button on the
stick. Later on when they went to a mixed machine gun/cannon armament[1]
they fitted a rectangular button. If pressed in the centre it fired both
types of gun, if pressed at the top it fired one sort and if pressed at
the bottom it fired the other (can't remember which way round tho!).

Later on they went cannon-only and I suspose went back to the round
buttons?

[1] That's the 4x 303 and 2x 20mm combination. There where some high
altitude conversions done with 2x .50 and 2x 20mm, and I don't know
what arrangements they had ...
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...

[Ken Duffey]

N329DF wrote:
> It is very easy to fly, for me even more comfortable than a stick. I can't say
> about in combat, but I have flown in Tiger Moth, Harvard Mk.II and Spitfire TR
> IX, and all had circle control sticks.
> Matt Gunsch,
> A&P,IA,Private Pilot
> Riding member of the
> 2003 world champion drill team
> Arizona Precision Motorcycle Drill Team
> GWRRA,NRA,GOA
>

As an addendum to N-6's original question..............

Did the stick move from side-to-side - or was it just the spade grip
that moved for aileron control ??

ISTR seeing pics of the stick in the central position with just the
spade displaced to one side.

I also assume the the whole spade/stick moved for-and-aft for elevator
control ??

Ken Duffey

[Yann D]

btw, I have often read that japanese pilots were unhappy with the MG/cannon
(A6M, J2M) firing with different ballistic behaviour, but never heard about
Spit pilots complaints except about the early Hispano jamming and recoil
shake.
Any hints ?

Yann

> > I am unable to tell exaclty from pictures, but are there seperate
> > triggers to fire the cannons only, the machine guns only, and both the
> > cannons and MGs at the same time?
>
> Early spitfires had machine guns only, and had a round button on the
> stick. Later on when they went to a mixed machine gun/cannon armament[1]
> they fitted a rectangular button. If pressed in the centre it fired both
> types of gun, if pressed at the top it fired one sort and if pressed at
> the bottom it fired the other (can't remember which way round tho!).
>
> Later on they went cannon-only and I suspose went back to the round
> buttons?
>
> [1] That's the 4x 303 and 2x 20mm combination. There where some high
> altitude conversions done with 2x .50 and 2x 20mm, and I don't know
> what arrangements they had ...
> --
> These opinions might not even be mine ...
> Let alone connected with my employer ...

[Frijoles]

I laughed out loud at your decription of the Harrier stick. It took a few
minutes for me to figure out how to hold the bloomin' thing when I first saw
it. Over time I came to love flying the jet even with all its British
peculiarities (among the others -- pushbuttons for "undercarriage" extension
and retraction).

I too wondered about the circle thing watching "B.O.B." the other night.
Seems its just something one got used to over time.

"Dave Eadsforth" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, N329DF
> > writes
> >It is very easy to fly, for me even more comfortable than a stick. I
can't say
> >about in combat, but I have flown in Tiger Moth, Harvard Mk.II and
Spitfire TR
> >IX,
>
> Nice!
>
> > and all had circle control sticks.
> > Matt Gunsch,
> > A&P,IA,Private Pilot
> > Riding member of the
> > 2003 world champion drill team
> >Arizona Precision Motorcycle Drill Team
> > GWRRA,NRA,GOA
> >
>
> At one point, RAF fighter pilots were advised to keep both hands on the
> control column while firing - a spade handle made this easy, as was
> applying a lot of control force when necessary. Plus it was
> ambidextrous (did I spell that ok?) and easy to swap hands quickly
> without having to overlap fingers (and trapping glove leather; very
> annoying...). It also made it very easy to operate a stick-mounted
> brake handle as this could be mounted to pivot side-to-side rather than
> front-to-back - very natural to the fingers.
>
> All in all, I wonder why we stopped using them - didn't look flash
> enough for the export market I suppose...
>
> By way of comparison I have an early Harrier control column handle. It
> is ergonomic hell - hard to reach some controls and difficult to use
> without pressing things you don't want to press.
>
> On a trivial point, I have a 30 year old US-made screwdriver which has a
> spherical handle and can thus be gripped with the whole hand - it is a
> dream to use compared to the straight and/or or pistol-grip types - you
> can really apply torque and pressure in comfort. Suspect the spade
> handle shared some of these ergonomic characteristics.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dave
>
> --
> Dave Eadsforth

[Guy Alcala]

N-6 wrote:

> Anyone out there that has flown or been in the cockpit of a
> Supermarine Spitfire? I am wondering about the circular control
> "handle" particular to the British fighter and how it seems to me that
> it would have been quite awkward or uncomfortable to use (compared to
> a conventional fighter stick) especially in a dogfighting situation
> (i.e. when manuvering and firing guns at the same time). Due to the
> placement of the triggers, the pilot would apparently need to grip the
> handle with his right hand at the top of the circle (at the 12 o'clock
> position) and fire using his thumb. I would think this would get
> tiring on the wrist and perhaps make precision aiming difficult. So
> what's it really like? I am unable to tell exaclty from pictures, but
> are there seperate triggers to fire the cannons only, the machine guns
> only, and both the cannons and MGs at the same time?

Already answered by someone else.

> Also, is it true that the prop pitch/rpm control was automatic on the
> Spit, so the pilot did not have to worry about it during a dogfight
> unlike most other allied prop-fighters? I believe the German fighters
> (109 & 190) also had automatic control of this function. I've only
> flown a couple fixed-pitch propellor Cessna's in my life, but I'd
> imagine having to simultaneously manage both the engine throttle and
> propellor pitch/rpm during a dogfight would be somewhat of a heavy
> workload for the pilot, so in this respect I gather the Spitfire would
> have been easier to control than most other prop-fighters.

No, prop/rpm was manual, although the Spit progressed from a wooden
fixed-pitch prop to a metal two-pitch prop to a constant-speed prop in
slightly over a year. AFAIK, there was nothing like the FW-190's
Kommandogerat (IIRR that's what it was called). As a practical matter,
though, the workload in a dogfight was minimal -- you put everything
(mixture/prop/ throttle) full forward and left it there. It was how
quickly you could change from cruise settings to combat settings in a
hurry where the single power lever had the advantage.

Guy

[vincent p. norris]

>Anyone out there that has flown or been in the cockpit of a
>Supermarine Spitfire? I am wondering about the circular control
>"handle" particular to the British fighter and how it seems to me that
>it would have been quite awkward or uncomfortable to use (compared to
>a conventional fighter stick) especially in a dogfighting situation

Never flew a Spit (Dammmit), but I can tell you that "especially in a
dogfighting situation," being able to move the stick with both hands
would be an advantage. After a few minutes of trying to get on the
other guy's six it's hard manual labor, even with trim tabs. I
imagine that was the reason for the circular top on the stick.

It was not a "wheel." It didn't turn. It operated just like an
ordinary stick except that it was hinged part-way down and "bent" left
or right when aileron was applied.

vince norris

[Peter Stickney]

In article >,
Ken Duffey > writes:
> N329DF wrote:
>> It is very easy to fly, for me even more comfortable than a stick. I can't say
>> about in combat, but I have flown in Tiger Moth, Harvard Mk.II and Spitfire TR
>> IX, and all had circle control sticks.
>> Matt Gunsch,
>> A&P,IA,Private Pilot
>> Riding member of the
>> 2003 world champion drill team
>> Arizona Precision Motorcycle Drill Team
>> GWRRA,NRA,GOA
>>
>
> As an addendum to N-6's original question..............
>
> Did the stick move from side-to-side - or was it just the spade grip
> that moved for aileron control ??

The stick had a pivot at about half its height - the top part of teh
stick, with the spade grip would pivot. It's a neat solution -
British cockpits tended to be on the small side, and doing the stick
that way gave you more throw without your legs getting in the way.

> ISTR seeing pics of the stick in the central position with just the
> spade displaced to one side.

Well, the spade grip & the upper portion.

> I also assume the the whole spade/stick moved for-and-aft for elevator
> control ??

Yep.

SOmebody mentioned the Brake Lever, I think. That's an important
point. Unlike the toe brakes on aircraft produced by others, brakes
on Brit airplanes were activated by a single lever. It's a lot easier
to deal with with the spade grip.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

[Peter Stickney]

In article >,
"Yann D" > writes:
> btw, I have often read that japanese pilots were unhappy with the MG/cannon
> (A6M, J2M) firing with different ballistic behaviour, but never heard about
> Spit pilots complaints except about the early Hispano jamming and recoil
> shake.
> Any hints ?

The Japanese 20mm cannon used on the A6ms was a low velocity weapon
with a fairly poor ballistic coefficient. (So lots of drop). The
20mm Hispano used by the Brits as a high velocity weapon with a better
shell design, and it matched fairly well with the trajectory of teh
Browning .30 and .50 guns over teh ranges normally encountered in
combat.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

[Dave Eadsforth]

In article >, Cub Driver
> writes
>
>>On a trivial point, I have a 30 year old US-made screwdriver which has a
>>spherical handle and can thus be gripped with the whole hand - it is a
>>dream to use compared to the straight and/or or pistol-grip types -
>
>I inherited one of these from my father, though spherical is not how I
>would describe the handle. More an elongated oval, made of wood, with
>a metal top to defend it from the inevitable carpenter who would use
>it as a chisel.
>
This one was a modern plastic type with ratchet and interchangeable tips
- must have been an early one to feature these.

>It was older than 30 years, however. My father bought his tools in the
>late 1930s / early 1940s. My son-in-law still uses some of them.
>
My uncle left me a tool chest full of woodworking gear - I may get
around to doing a bit of whittling sometime...carve a couple of those
big scale model P-51s and Spitfires...

>all the best -- Dan Ford
>email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
>The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
>The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
>Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

[Dave Eadsforth]

In article t>,
Frijoles > writes
>I laughed out loud at your decription of the Harrier stick. It took a few
>minutes for me to figure out how to hold the bloomin' thing when I first saw
>it.

An octopus would probably get on okay with it...

>Over time I came to love flying the jet even with all its British
>peculiarities (among the others -- pushbuttons for "undercarriage" extension
>and retraction).
>
The early Spitfires featured a lever that moved 90 degrees to operate
the undercarriage hydraulics, but it invited disaster. The lever had to
be swung downwards and then it would automatically snap itself back into
the locking notch. The pilot had to resist the temptation to help the
lever back into the locking notch as this cut off the hydraulic pressure
while the wheels were still coming down. Quite a few novices did try to
land with wheels hardly out of the housings.

So the buttons are there to make things simple!

>I too wondered about the circle thing watching "B.O.B." the other night.
>Seems its just something one got used to over time.
>
SNIP old stuff

A fellow air cadet and I raided a fire dump when staying at an RAF
station (MANY years ago). We got the control column tops out of a
Meteor trainer destined for fire practice - I got the 'modern' handle
and my pal got the WWII spade grip. Wish we'd done it the other way
around now...

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

[Guy Alcala]

Dave Eadsforth wrote:

> In article t>,
> Frijoles > writes

<snip>

> >I too wondered about the circle thing watching "B.O.B." the other night.
> >Seems its just something one got used to over time.
> >
> SNIP old stuff
>
> A fellow air cadet and I raided a fire dump when staying at an RAF
> station (MANY years ago). We got the control column tops out of a
> Meteor trainer destined for fire practice - I got the 'modern' handle
> and my pal got the WWII spade grip. Wish we'd done it the other way
> around now...

Which reminds me -- the spade grip was pretty much SOP for RAF fighters during
WW2. Anyone know which a/c first dispensed with it and went with a standard
sticktop? I know the Hunter had a regular top, although it too was pivoted about
halfway down to avoid the "hitting the knee" problems that Pete mentioned. OTOH
it had powered controls, so brute force wasn't an issue, and they could have
geared the stick throw however they wanted. Anyone know what the Meteor and
Vampire used? IIRR the latter had the hand-operated brake lever, so probably had
the spade grip.

Guy

[Cub Driver]

>Unlike the toe brakes on aircraft produced by others, brakes
>on Brit airplanes were activated by a single lever.

The Piper Colt had a single brake handle, but at least it was a trike.
It must have been a bear, handling a taildragger on the ground without
differential brakes, especially on asphalt.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

[Presidente Alcazar]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 07:53:54 GMT, Guy Alcala
> wrote:

>Which reminds me -- the spade grip was pretty much SOP for RAF fighters during
>WW2. Anyone know which a/c first dispensed with it and went with a standard
>sticktop? I know the Hunter had a regular top, although it too was pivoted about
>halfway down to avoid the "hitting the knee" problems that Pete mentioned. OTOH
>it had powered controls, so brute force wasn't an issue, and they could have
>geared the stick throw however they wanted. Anyone know what the Meteor and
>Vampire used? IIRR the latter had the hand-operated brake lever, so probably had
>the spade grip.

Yup, the Vampires (at least up to the FB.5) had the spade grip
according to the pilot's notes I've seen.

Gavin Bailey

--

Apply three phase AC 415V direct to MB. This work real good. How you know, you
ask? Simple, chip get real HOT. System not work, but no can tell from this.
Exactly same as before. Do it now. - Bart Kwan En

[N329DF]

>>Unlike the toe brakes on aircraft produced by others, brakes
>>on Brit airplanes were activated by a single lever.
>
>The Piper Colt had a single brake handle, but at least it was a trike.
>It must have been a bear, handling a taildragger on the ground without
>differential brakes, especially on asphalt.

They had differential brakes. with the pedals center, when the lever is pulled,
you got pressure to both brakes, if you have the left pedal in, you get left
brake, if you got right pedal in, you get right brake. The system is very easy
to operate, just I don't like air systems, it can be a bitch finding a leak.
Matt Gunsch,
A&P,IA,Private Pilot
Riding member of the
2003 world champion drill team
Arizona Precision Motorcycle Drill Team
GWRRA,NRA,GOA

[Peter Stickney]

In article >,
Guy Alcala > writes:
> Dave Eadsforth wrote:
>
>> In article t>,
>> Frijoles > writes
>
> <snip>
>
>> >I too wondered about the circle thing watching "B.O.B." the other night.
>> >Seems its just something one got used to over time.
>> >
>> SNIP old stuff
>>
>> A fellow air cadet and I raided a fire dump when staying at an RAF
>> station (MANY years ago). We got the control column tops out of a
>> Meteor trainer destined for fire practice - I got the 'modern' handle
>> and my pal got the WWII spade grip. Wish we'd done it the other way
>> around now...
>
> Which reminds me -- the spade grip was pretty much SOP for RAF fighters during
> WW2. Anyone know which a/c first dispensed with it and went with a standard
> sticktop? I know the Hunter had a regular top, although it too was pivoted about
> halfway down to avoid the "hitting the knee" problems that Pete mentioned. OTOH
> it had powered controls, so brute force wasn't an issue, and they could have
> geared the stick throw however they wanted. Anyone know what the Meteor and
> Vampire used? IIRR the latter had the hand-operated brake lever, so probably had
> the spade grip.

The Vampire, at least the T.11/T.35 most definitely has a regular
stick grip. The brake lever sits in front, sort of like that of a
bicycle. (It's not as comfortable as teh grip on a T-33, though -
just a straight handle.

Here's a picture: (watch the wrap)
http://www.airmuseumsuk.org/dhaircraft/800/pages/003%20DH.82%20Queen%20Bee%20cockpit.htm


--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

[Peter Stickney]

In article >,
Guy Alcala > writes:
> Dave Eadsforth wrote:
>
>> In article t>,
>> Frijoles > writes
>
> <snip>
>
>> >I too wondered about the circle thing watching "B.O.B." the other night.
>> >Seems its just something one got used to over time.
>> >
>> SNIP old stuff
>>
>> A fellow air cadet and I raided a fire dump when staying at an RAF
>> station (MANY years ago). We got the control column tops out of a
>> Meteor trainer destined for fire practice - I got the 'modern' handle
>> and my pal got the WWII spade grip. Wish we'd done it the other way
>> around now...
>
> Which reminds me -- the spade grip was pretty much SOP for RAF fighters during
> WW2. Anyone know which a/c first dispensed with it and went with a standard
> sticktop? I know the Hunter had a regular top, although it too was pivoted about
> halfway down to avoid the "hitting the knee" problems that Pete mentioned. OTOH
> it had powered controls, so brute force wasn't an issue, and they could have
> geared the stick throw however they wanted. Anyone know what the Meteor and
> Vampire used? IIRR the latter had the hand-operated brake lever, so probably had
> the spade grip.

Emergency Followup - in my haste, I gave teh URL for the wrong cockpit
image. That's a DH Queen Bee (Basically a radio controlled Tiger
Moth).

This is the Vampire:
http://www.airmuseumsuk.org/dhaircraft/800/pages/006%20DH.115%20Vampire%20T.11%20cockpit.htm




--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

[Guy Alcala]

Presidente Alcazar wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 07:53:54 GMT, Guy Alcala
> > wrote:
>
> >Which reminds me -- the spade grip was pretty much SOP for RAF fighters during
> >WW2. Anyone know which a/c first dispensed with it and went with a standard
> >sticktop? I know the Hunter had a regular top, although it too was pivoted about
> >halfway down to avoid the "hitting the knee" problems that Pete mentioned. OTOH
> >it had powered controls, so brute force wasn't an issue, and they could have
> >geared the stick throw however they wanted. Anyone know what the Meteor and
> >Vampire used? IIRR the latter had the hand-operated brake lever, so probably had
> >the spade grip.
>
> Yup, the Vampires (at least up to the FB.5) had the spade grip
> according to the pilot's notes I've seen.

Given the photo of the T.11 Pete provided, and the pilot's notes you've seen, it
occurs to me that the standard stick stop would have had to replace the spade grip
when ejection seats came in. IIRR single-seat Vamps and (I think) early Meteors
didn't have ejection seats. A spade grip would presumably interfere more with the
ejection path, and who wants to lose a leg at the knee if they don't have to?

Guy