Mugabe to order FC-1s from china

[Prowlus]

guy's country in turmoil and famine yet where does he get the money to buy them ?

http://iafrica.com/news/sa/52746.htm

[Eric Pinnell]

On 15 Jun 2004 06:07:06 -0700, (Prowlus) wrote:

>guy's country in turmoil and famine yet where does he get the money to buy them ?
>
>http://iafrica.com/news/sa/52746.htm

It's likely the Chinese loaned him money in order to gain influence.



Eric Pinnell

(Author, "Steel Rain", "Claws of The Dragon", "The Omega File")

For a preview, see: http://www.ericpinnell.com/books/previews.shtml

[Drewe Manton]

(Prowlus) wrote in
om:

> guy's country in turmoil and famine yet where does he get the money to
> buy them ?
>

By the simple expedient of not being in touch with reality and not caring
that his own population is starving. Easy really.

--
Regards
Drewe
"Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colourful rag is unfurled"

[phil hunt]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:55:41 -0400, Eric Pinnell <seemywebsite> wrote:
>On 15 Jun 2004 06:07:06 -0700, (Prowlus) wrote:
>
>>guy's country in turmoil and famine yet where does he get the money to buy them ?
>>
>>http://iafrica.com/news/sa/52746.htm
>
> It's likely the Chinese loaned him money in order to gain influence.

I doubt it. China gains nothing from lending money to him, since it
would be money down the drain. And how would China benefit from
"influence"? What's Zimbabwe got that China wants?

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)

[BUFF]

"Prowlus" > wrote in message
om...
> guy's country in turmoil and famine yet where does he get the money to buy
them ?
>
> http://iafrica.com/news/sa/52746.htm

It's easy really, Libya already owns large chunks of Zimbabwe from deals
done - I guess that China is getting the rest.

[Eric Pinnell]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:52:46 +0100, (phil hunt)
wrote:

>I doubt it. China gains nothing from lending money to him, since it
>would be money down the drain. And how would China benefit from
>"influence"? What's Zimbabwe got that China wants?

Who can say? Maybe the Chinese want to have an airbase or military
facility. Mugabe is a dangerous lunatic who's going to destroy his
country. Worse yet, Thabo Mbeki seems to want to do the same thing.



Eric Pinnell

(Author, "Steel Rain", "Claws of The Dragon", "The Omega File")

For a preview, see: http://www.ericpinnell.com/books/previews.shtml

[phil hunt]

On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:22:51 -0400, Eric Pinnell <seemywebsite> wrote:
>On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:52:46 +0100, (phil hunt)
>wrote:
>
>>I doubt it. China gains nothing from lending money to him, since it
>>would be money down the drain. And how would China benefit from
>>"influence"? What's Zimbabwe got that China wants?
>
> Who can say? Maybe the Chinese want to have an airbase or military
>facility.

Why would they want one in Zimbabwe? maybe in 20 years time, but
China isn't in a position to have worldwide power projection yet.

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)

[Kevin Brooks]

"phil hunt" > wrote in message
rg...
> On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:22:51 -0400, Eric Pinnell <seemywebsite> wrote:
> >On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:52:46 +0100, (phil hunt)
> >wrote:
> >
> >>I doubt it. China gains nothing from lending money to him, since it
> >>would be money down the drain. And how would China benefit from
> >>"influence"? What's Zimbabwe got that China wants?
> >
> > Who can say? Maybe the Chinese want to have an airbase or military
> >facility.
>
> Why would they want one in Zimbabwe? maybe in 20 years time, but
> China isn't in a position to have worldwide power projection yet.

You folks are IMO overlooking the obvious; the much more likely reason
behind China providing FC-1's to Zimbabwe would be simply to pump up the
export potetial for the aircraft by being able to point to a customer other
than Pakistan. They essentially gift them to Mugabe in hopes that it helps
them develop a larger paying customer export basis elsewhere around the
world in the near future. Desperate times/desperate measures--its not like
oodles of potential customers are scratching and clawing to get on the early
delivery list for "advanced" (ahem!) PRC manufactired combat aircraft, now
is it?

Brooks

>
> --

[phil hunt]

On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 19:52:16 -0400, Kevin Brooks > wrote:
>
>"phil hunt" > wrote in message
rg...
>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:22:51 -0400, Eric Pinnell <seemywebsite> wrote:
>> >On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:52:46 +0100, (phil hunt)
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >>I doubt it. China gains nothing from lending money to him, since it
>> >>would be money down the drain. And how would China benefit from
>> >>"influence"? What's Zimbabwe got that China wants?
>> >
>> > Who can say? Maybe the Chinese want to have an airbase or military
>> >facility.
>>
>> Why would they want one in Zimbabwe? maybe in 20 years time, but
>> China isn't in a position to have worldwide power projection yet.
>
>You folks are IMO overlooking the obvious; the much more likely reason
>behind China providing FC-1's to Zimbabwe would be simply to pump up the
>export potetial for the aircraft by being able to point to a customer other
>than Pakistan. They essentially gift them to Mugabe in hopes that it helps
>them develop a larger paying customer export basis elsewhere around the
>world in the near future. Desperate times/desperate measures--its not like
>oodles of potential customers are scratching and clawing to get on the early
>delivery list for "advanced" (ahem!) PRC manufactired combat aircraft, now
>is it?

That sounds logical and plausible, IMO.

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)

[Eric Pinnell]

On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 23:28:32 +0100, (phil hunt)
wrote:

>Why would they want one in Zimbabwe? maybe in 20 years time, but
>China isn't in a position to have worldwide power projection yet.

Yeah, but they'd be in a position, for example, to stomp on third
world tin pot dictatorships anytime they want.
Africa is a big mess, maybe China's looking to become a major
player.
One has to wonder why Mugabe wants modern air power, since his
neighbors don't have much in the way of an air force, and air power
isn't all that useful if there's an armed rebellion.


Eric Pinnell

(Author, "Steel Rain", "Claws of The Dragon", "The Omega File")

For a preview, see: http://www.ericpinnell.com/books/previews.shtml

[phil hunt]

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:07:09 -0400, Eric Pinnell <seemywebsite> wrote:
> One has to wonder why Mugabe wants modern air power, since his
>neighbors don't have much in the way of an air force, and air power
>isn't all that useful if there's an armed rebellion.

His neighbour to the south does.

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)

[Kevin Brooks]

"Eric Pinnell" <see my web site> wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 23:28:32 +0100, (phil hunt)
> wrote:
>
> >Why would they want one in Zimbabwe? maybe in 20 years time, but
> >China isn't in a position to have worldwide power projection yet.
>
> Yeah, but they'd be in a position, for example, to stomp on third
> world tin pot dictatorships anytime they want.

Hardly. Their reach leaves a lot to be desired; what kind of force do you
think China can deploy halfway around the world from their own borders?
Airpower? Nope, not hardly. Seapower? Gimme a break... no way. What you have
in China is sort of your typical 600 pound gorilla at your local zoo, with a
largely self-imposed wall keeping it from reaching beyond the limits of its
cage; tinpot dictators located outside that cage can thumb their nose at the
PRC anytime they want, risking only economic retribution at the worst (and
few tinpot dictators are in a position to be too awful worried about
economic sanctions from the PRC). If you see the PRC establishing some sort
of expeditionary base in Zimbabwe, think again--ain't a likely outcome.

> Africa is a big mess, maybe China's looking to become a major
> player.

The PRC is more worried about continuing to unravel its own mess, and
contingencies much closer to home, so seeing them become heavily involved in
Africa is a non-starter; this is not the era of Mao trying to export
communism in the Congo.

> One has to wonder why Mugabe wants modern air power, since his
> neighbors don't have much in the way of an air force, and air power
> isn't all that useful if there's an armed rebellion.

Like most despots, he probably feels empowered by having shiny new toys. hen
again, his immediate southern neighbor is getting Gripens in the
not-too-distant future, too. Guess you forgot about South Africa bordering
him, eh?

Brooks

>
>
> Eric Pinnell
>

[Eric Pinnell]

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:38:17 +0100, (phil hunt)
wrote:

>His neighbour to the south does.

Well, considering that South Africa is also communist, it's not
likely they'd get into a war. If they did, Zimbabwe would be squashed.


Eric Pinnell

(Author, "Steel Rain", "Claws of The Dragon", "The Omega File")

For a preview, see: http://www.ericpinnell.com/books/previews.shtml

[phil hunt]

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 16:27:51 -0400, Eric Pinnell <seemywebsite> wrote:
>On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:38:17 +0100, (phil hunt)
>wrote:
>
>>His neighbour to the south does.
>
> Well, considering that South Africa is also communist,

This is only true if you give common English word your own personal
definitions which no-one else understands.

Of course, when you do that, communication becomes impossible.

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)

[David E. Powell]

OK, my news server has been out the last few days, so I am trying this one
more time. If anyone has seen this before, my apologies....

What if Mugabe has diamonds, industrial and otherwise, to offer? Ones not
going through the usual channels? Also, China gets to crow about sales of
this system to someone when the US, Russia and Europe are already the big
names on the sophisticated arms export block.

[Alan Minyard]

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:07:09 -0400, Eric Pinnell <see my web site> wrote:

>On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 23:28:32 +0100, (phil hunt)
>wrote:
>
>>Why would they want one in Zimbabwe? maybe in 20 years time, but
>>China isn't in a position to have worldwide power projection yet.
>
> Yeah, but they'd be in a position, for example, to stomp on third
>world tin pot dictatorships anytime they want.
> Africa is a big mess, maybe China's looking to become a major
>player.
> One has to wonder why Mugabe wants modern air power, since his
>neighbors don't have much in the way of an air force, and air power
>isn't all that useful if there's an armed rebellion.
>
>
>Eric Pinnell
>
>(Author, "Steel Rain", "Claws of The Dragon", "The Omega File")
>
>For a preview, see: http://www.ericpinnell.com/books/previews.shtml

IMHO Mugabe is a charter member of the "mine is bigger than yours"
club. Like several other countries (i.e. India) he would rather have toys
than feed his people.

Al Minyard

[Eric Pinnell]

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:00:26 +0100, (phil hunt)
wrote:


>This is only true if you give common English word your own personal
>definitions which no-one else understands.
>
>Of course, when you do that, communication becomes impossible.

The ANC is a communist political party, or do you not understand the
concept?


Eric Pinnell

(Author, "Steel Rain", "Claws of The Dragon", "The Omega File")

For a preview, see: http://www.ericpinnell.com/books/previews.shtml

[Peter Kemp]

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:22:05 -0400, Eric Pinnell <see my web site>
wrote:

>On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:00:26 +0100, (phil hunt)
>wrote:
>
>
>>This is only true if you give common English word your own personal
>>definitions which no-one else understands.
>>
>>Of course, when you do that, communication becomes impossible.
>
> The ANC is a communist political party, or do you not understand the
>concept?

Hmm, the ANC...

Holds free elections (just had one)

Allows opposiiton parties to form freely

Does not nationalise companies or production

Allows free press

Doesnt' sound too Communist to me.

Peter Kemp

[Stephen Thomas]

Peter Kemp > wrote in message >...
> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:22:05 -0400, Eric Pinnell <see my web site>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:00:26 +0100, (phil hunt)
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> >>This is only true if you give common English word your own personal
> >>definitions which no-one else understands.
> >>
> >>Of course, when you do that, communication becomes impossible.
> >
> > The ANC is a communist political party, or do you not understand the
> >concept?
>
> Hmm, the ANC...
>
> Holds free elections (just had one)
>
> Allows opposiiton parties to form freely
>
> Does not nationalise companies or production
>
> Allows free press
>
> Doesnt' sound too Communist to me.
>
> Peter Kemp

So how come a vast majority of the ANC upper echelons are also members
of the South African Communist party?

[phil hunt]

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:29:27 -0400, Peter Kemp > wrote:
>On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:22:05 -0400, Eric Pinnell <see my web site>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:00:26 +0100, (phil hunt)
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>This is only true if you give common English word your own personal
>>>definitions which no-one else understands.
>>>
>>>Of course, when you do that, communication becomes impossible.
>>
>> The ANC is a communist political party, or do you not understand the
>>concept?
>
>Hmm, the ANC...
>
>Holds free elections (just had one)
>
>Allows opposiiton parties to form freely
>
>Does not nationalise companies or production
>
>Allows free press
>
>Doesnt' sound too Communist to me.
>
>Peter Kemp

Ah, but you're speaking English, not Pinnellese.

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)

[phil hunt]

On 24 Jun 2004 07:30:52 -0700, Stephen Thomas > wrote:
>
>So how come a vast majority of the ANC upper echelons are also members
>of the South African Communist party?

I think with politicains you should go by how they behave, not by
what they call themselves. Otherwsire, you'll next be telling us
that the PRC is run by communists.

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)

[Al Dykes]

In article >,
Stephen Thomas > wrote:
>Peter Kemp > wrote in message
>...
>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:22:05 -0400, Eric Pinnell <see my web site>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:00:26 +0100, (phil hunt)
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>This is only true if you give common English word your own personal
>> >>definitions which no-one else understands.
>> >>
>> >>Of course, when you do that, communication becomes impossible.
>> >
>> > The ANC is a communist political party, or do you not understand the
>> >concept?
>>
>> Hmm, the ANC...
>>
>> Holds free elections (just had one)
>>
>> Allows opposiiton parties to form freely
>>
>> Does not nationalise companies or production
>>
>> Allows free press
>>
>> Doesnt' sound too Communist to me.
>>
>> Peter Kemp
>
>So how come a vast majority of the ANC upper echelons are also members
>of the South African Communist party?

The SA Communist Party has probably turned into the local equivalent
of the our Veterens of Foreign Wars for the vets of the anti-apartheid
struggle. Everyone needs to have a place to hang out with the old war
buddies. Can any one point to a single act by the gov't that is
communist-like since the apartheid regeime ended ? It's been what, 8
years ? Very sneeky of them commies to lay low long enough that
everyone forgets.

What are you afraid of ?


--
Al Dykes
-----------
adykes at p a n i x . c o m

[Eric Pinnell]

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 22:38:14 +0100, (phil hunt)
wrote:

>Ah, but you're speaking English, not Pinnellese.

We'll see after the land confiscations begin.


Eric Pinnell

(Author, "Steel Rain", "Claws of The Dragon", "The Omega File")

For a preview, see: http://www.ericpinnell.com/books/previews.shtml