resign commission for warrant officer questions

[1LT 15B in AH-64D]

I am a 1LT in the Army National Guard, an Aviator, and I would like to
go on active duty. I have done some research and my options are to
apply to the Active Guard and Reserve or enter as a warrant. I have
been surrounded by warrants and I like them and there responsibilities
are real important and it would be a great honor to be counted in
their ranks. I cannot find out if I have to go to WOC school or not.
I have been to Federal OCS at Benning and a Federal Law Enforcement
Academy. I am interested in finding out if I have to attend yet
another candidate school. I hear it both ways but no AR has been
pointed out that states the facts definitively. Thanks for your help.

[Kevin Brooks]

"1LT 15B in AH-64D" > wrote in message
om...
> I am a 1LT in the Army National Guard, an Aviator, and I would like to
> go on active duty. I have done some research and my options are to
> apply to the Active Guard and Reserve or enter as a warrant. I have
> been surrounded by warrants and I like them and there responsibilities
> are real important and it would be a great honor to be counted in
> their ranks. I cannot find out if I have to go to WOC school or not.
> I have been to Federal OCS at Benning and a Federal Law Enforcement
> Academy. I am interested in finding out if I have to attend yet
> another candidate school. I hear it both ways but no AR has been
> pointed out that states the facts definitively. Thanks for your help.

I believe what you would have to do is seek a "determination in grade",
which balances your qualifications/schools against regulatory requirments to
determine your qualification to serve at a lower grade. One oiece of
advice--don't let *anyone* talk you into resigning your commission prior to
getting a firm determination in writing, since you can only resign once, the
it is most definitely "finis". Being as CW2 and above are now considered
commissioned officers, IIRC, you may not even have to resign your
commission. Have you thought of just submitting a 4187 requesting assignment
to active duty?

Brooks

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: resign commission for warrant officer questions
>From: (1LT 15B in AH-64D)
>Date: 6/17/04 4:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>I am a 1LT in the Army National Guard, an Aviator, and I would like to
>go on active duty. I have done some research and my options are to
>apply to the Active Guard and Reserve or enter as a warrant. I have
>been surrounded by warrants and I like them and there responsibilities
>are real important and it would be a great honor to be counted in
>their ranks. I cannot find out if I have to go to WOC school or not.
>I have been to Federal OCS at Benning and a Federal Law Enforcement
>Academy. I am interested in finding out if I have to attend yet
>another candidate school. I hear it both ways but no AR has been
>pointed out that states the facts definitively. Thanks for your help.
>


Have you lost your mind? Or are you looking for a section 8? Give up a
commission for a lower rank? You will regret it forever. Those captains bars
are just around the corner. Hang in there and fight fiercely.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: resign commission for warrant officer questions
> >From: (1LT 15B in AH-64D)
> >Date: 6/17/04 4:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >I am a 1LT in the Army National Guard, an Aviator, and I would like to
> >go on active duty. I have done some research and my options are to
> >apply to the Active Guard and Reserve or enter as a warrant. I have
> >been surrounded by warrants and I like them and there responsibilities
> >are real important and it would be a great honor to be counted in
> >their ranks. I cannot find out if I have to go to WOC school or not.
> >I have been to Federal OCS at Benning and a Federal Law Enforcement
> >Academy. I am interested in finding out if I have to attend yet
> >another candidate school. I hear it both ways but no AR has been
> >pointed out that states the facts definitively. Thanks for your help.
> >
>
>
> Have you lost your mind? Or are you looking for a section 8? Give up a
> commission for a lower rank? You will regret it forever. Those captains
bars
> are just around the corner. Hang in there and fight fiercely.

Pardon Art for being utterly clueless about anything military happening
post-1945. He obviously does not understand that the bulk of the actual
flying duty in the modern US Army is accomplished by WO/CWO's, who are a bit
less likely to find themselves pullling tours "out of the cockpit". I had a
very good buddy who went the WO route after college; he later called me up
and told me he was being offered a commssion in the MSC (he was then a
Dustoff pilot). I told him flat-out that if he was really interested in the
flying part of the job, stay on the warrant side. He decided otherwise, and
took a commission as a 2LT. By the time he was a 1LT he was already getting
tired of increasing BS--he left the Army before his O-3 board even met.

Brooks

>
>
> Arthur Kramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: resign commission for warrant officer questions
>From: (1LT 15B in AH-64D)
>Date: 6/17/04 4:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>I am a 1LT in the Army National Guard, an Aviator, and I would like to
>go on active duty. I have done some research and my options are to
>apply to the Active Guard and Reserve or enter as a warrant. I have
>been surrounded by warrants and I like them and there responsibilities
>are real important and it would be a great honor to be counted in
>their ranks. I cannot find out if I have to go to WOC school or not.
>I have been to Federal OCS at Benning and a Federal Law Enforcement
>Academy. I am interested in finding out if I have to attend yet
>another candidate school. I hear it both ways but no AR has been
>pointed out that states the facts definitively. Thanks for your help.
>


If you resign your commission you will never be a squadron commander, or a
group commander or a wing commander. You will never fly lead and have the
thrill of being the first over the target or the first to hit the enemy.Keep
your commission. Never throw away success.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: resign commission for warrant officer questions
> >From: (1LT 15B in AH-64D)
> >Date: 6/17/04 4:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >I am a 1LT in the Army National Guard, an Aviator, and I would like to
> >go on active duty. I have done some research and my options are to
> >apply to the Active Guard and Reserve or enter as a warrant. I have
> >been surrounded by warrants and I like them and there responsibilities
> >are real important and it would be a great honor to be counted in
> >their ranks. I cannot find out if I have to go to WOC school or not.
> >I have been to Federal OCS at Benning and a Federal Law Enforcement
> >Academy. I am interested in finding out if I have to attend yet
> >another candidate school. I hear it both ways but no AR has been
> >pointed out that states the facts definitively. Thanks for your help.
> >
>
>
> If you resign your commission you will never be a squadron commander, or a
> group commander or a wing commander.

He is in the *Army*, flying AH-64's--which means he is unlikely to ever
*serve* in a squadron (which designation only applies to cavalry units in
the Army), and most definitely won't serve in a *group* ( I don't think that
there is any such critter left in the aviation side of the house, and the
remaining Army groups have danged little to do with aviation, being more
likely to be found in the engineers, transportation, and QM branches) or
*wing*.

You will never fly lead and have the
> thrill of being the first over the target or the first to hit the enemy.

Being a CWO flying an AH-64 could very well place him in a position where he
is flying the lead aircraft on a mission--do you know much of anything about
modern Army aviation? Hazard a guess--which do you think is the preponderant
class of pilots in the Army's premier aviation orgnization, the 160th SOAR,
warrants or "normal" commissioned officers? Try the warrant side...

Keep
> your commission. Never throw away success.

Being as you have once again proven beyond any doubt that you are utterly
clueless about anything military in the post-WWII era, the value of your
advice is rather suspect. If the guy really wants to fly on active duty, and
places flying above rank in his priority list, then taking a commission as a
CWO versus what he now has may well be a worthwhile trade. That is for him
to decide, not some has-been blowhard who obviously is so out of touch with
reality that he can't even grasp the fact that Army aviation has changed a
hell of a lot since the pre-USAF days of the USAAF. And BTW, if he were to
take a warrant, he'd likely still be a commissioned officer, strange as that
may seem to you--again, the Army has changed quite a bit over the last sixty
or so odd years.

Brooks

>
> Arthur Kramer

[Ragnar]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: resign commission for warrant officer questions
> >From: (1LT 15B in AH-64D)
> >Date: 6/17/04 4:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >I am a 1LT in the Army National Guard, an Aviator, and I would like to
> >go on active duty. I have done some research and my options are to
> >apply to the Active Guard and Reserve or enter as a warrant. I have
> >been surrounded by warrants and I like them and there responsibilities
> >are real important and it would be a great honor to be counted in
> >their ranks. I cannot find out if I have to go to WOC school or not.
> >I have been to Federal OCS at Benning and a Federal Law Enforcement
> >Academy. I am interested in finding out if I have to attend yet
> >another candidate school. I hear it both ways but no AR has been
> >pointed out that states the facts definitively. Thanks for your help.
> >
>
>
> If you resign your commission you will never be a squadron commander, or a
> group commander or a wing commander. You will never fly lead and have the
> thrill of being the first over the target or the first to hit the
enemy.Keep
> your commission. Never throw away success.

Obviously, Art is stuck in 1945. Sq, Grp, and Wg commanders don't usually
fly lead or be the first over the target today. In fact, every Grp or Wg
commander I've worked for since 1986 wasn't qualified under AF regs to fly
lead. Thats what they have senior captains and majors for.

[M. J. Powell]

In message >, ArtKramr
> writes
>
snip
>
>If you resign your commission you will never be a squadron commander, or a
>group commander or a wing commander. You will never fly lead and have the
>thrill of being the first over the target or the first to hit the enemy.Keep
>your commission. Never throw away success.

That last sentence is absolutely right. I did it once ( don't ask ) and
have regretted it for 40 years.
I can't comment on the main problem.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: resign commission for warrant officer questions
>From: "Ragnar"
>Date: 6/18/04 2:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: resign commission for warrant officer questions
>> >From: (1LT 15B in AH-64D)
>> >Date: 6/17/04 4:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >I am a 1LT in the Army National Guard, an Aviator, and I would like to
>> >go on active duty. I have done some research and my options are to
>> >apply to the Active Guard and Reserve or enter as a warrant. I have
>> >been surrounded by warrants and I like them and there responsibilities
>> >are real important and it would be a great honor to be counted in
>> >their ranks. I cannot find out if I have to go to WOC school or not.
>> >I have been to Federal OCS at Benning and a Federal Law Enforcement
>> >Academy. I am interested in finding out if I have to attend yet
>> >another candidate school. I hear it both ways but no AR has been
>> >pointed out that states the facts definitively. Thanks for your help.
>> >
>>
>>
>> If you resign your commission you will never be a squadron commander, or a
>> group commander or a wing commander. You will never fly lead and have the
>> thrill of being the first over the target or the first to hit the
>enemy.Keep
>> your commission. Never throw away success.
>
>Obviously, Art is stuck in 1945. Sq, Grp, and Wg commanders don't usually
>fly lead or be the first over the target today. In fact, every Grp or Wg
>commander I've worked for since 1986 wasn't qualified under AF regs to fly
>lead. Thats what they have senior captains and majors for.


But sure as hell not warrant officers.Give up a commision for a lower rank?
Beyond my comprehension in 1945 or at any other time. Well, this is a
different generation I guess.
..



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[BUFDRVR]

>Sq, Grp, and Wg commanders don't usually
>fly lead or be the first over the target today.

Not true.

>In fact, every Grp or Wg
>commander I've worked for since 1986 wasn't qualified under AF regs to fly
>lead.

Hmmm, every group or wing commander I've known was a fully qualified instructor
not only capable of leading a formation or acting as a mission commander, but
capable of training others to do so.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Ron]

>>Obviously, Art is stuck in 1945. Sq, Grp, and Wg commanders don't usually
>>fly lead or be the first over the target today. In fact, every Grp or Wg
>>commander I've worked for since 1986 wasn't qualified under AF regs to fly
>>lead. Thats what they have senior captains and majors for.
>
>
>But sure as hell not warrant officers.Give up a commision for a lower rank?
>Beyond my comprehension in 1945 or at any other time. Well, this is a
>different generation I guess.
>.
>
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

There is always the story of Michael Novosel, who was a B-24 and B-29s during
WW2, and was an reserve USAF LTC and wanted to go back to active duty and fly
when the Vietnam unpleasentness started, even though he was old enough to
retire

USAF would not let him, so he went to the army as a warrant officer, learned to
fly helicopters, and flew 2345 medivac missions and earned the CMOH.


Ron
PA-31T Cheyenne II
Maharashtra Weather Modification Program
Pune, India

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: resign commission for warrant officer questions
>From: (Ron)
>Date: 6/18/04 9:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>>Obviously, Art is stuck in 1945. Sq, Grp, and Wg commanders don't usually
>>>fly lead or be the first over the target today. In fact, every Grp or Wg
>>>commander I've worked for since 1986 wasn't qualified under AF regs to fly
>>>lead. Thats what they have senior captains and majors for.
>>
>>
>>But sure as hell not warrant officers.Give up a commision for a lower rank?
>>Beyond my comprehension in 1945 or at any other time. Well, this is a
>>different generation I guess.
>>.
>>
>>
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>
>There is always the story of Michael Novosel, who was a B-24 and B-29s during
>WW2, and was an reserve USAF LTC and wanted to go back to active duty and fly
>when the Vietnam unpleasentness started, even though he was old enough to
>retire
>
>USAF would not let him, so he went to the army as a warrant officer, learned
>to
>fly helicopters, and flew 2345 medivac missions and earned the CMOH.
>
>
>Ron
>PA-31T Cheyenne II
>Maharashtra Weather Modification Program
>Pune, India
>


That is very inspirational. Where do I sign up. Think there are any B-26's with
Nordens left? Every Lt. Col after full combat tour should turn warrant officer
and fly another tour. But only after a full combat tour is completed. Desks
jockeys not invited.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: resign commission for warrant officer questions
> >From: (Ron)
> >Date: 6/18/04 9:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >>>Obviously, Art is stuck in 1945. Sq, Grp, and Wg commanders don't
usually
> >>>fly lead or be the first over the target today. In fact, every Grp or
Wg
> >>>commander I've worked for since 1986 wasn't qualified under AF regs to
fly
> >>>lead. Thats what they have senior captains and majors for.
> >>
> >>
> >>But sure as hell not warrant officers.Give up a commision for a lower
rank?
> >>Beyond my comprehension in 1945 or at any other time. Well, this is a
> >>different generation I guess.
> >>.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Arthur Kramer
> >
> >There is always the story of Michael Novosel, who was a B-24 and B-29s
during
> >WW2, and was an reserve USAF LTC and wanted to go back to active duty and
fly
> >when the Vietnam unpleasentness started, even though he was old enough to
> >retire
> >
> >USAF would not let him, so he went to the army as a warrant officer,
learned
> >to
> >fly helicopters, and flew 2345 medivac missions and earned the CMOH.
> >
> >
> >Ron
> >PA-31T Cheyenne II
> >Maharashtra Weather Modification Program
> >Pune, India
> >
>
>
> That is very inspirational.

The guy won the Medal--it sure as hell should be inspirational. The poser
did not mention that Novosel also flew at least part of a combat tour with
his son in the same outfit, IIRC. Unlike you, Novosel was not unduly
impressed by his own rank, and found that both flying and duty mattered more
to him than the trappings and privaledges of rank--I can see where you would
find these qualities completely alien, though.

Where do I sign up. Think there are any B-26's with
> Nordens left? Every Lt. Col after full combat tour should turn warrant
officer
> and fly another tour. But only after a full combat tour is completed.
Desks
> jockeys not invited.

Let's see, did YOU complete a "full combat tour"? I have never heard you
mention completing your tour and being rotated back stateside while the war
was ongoing--so I guess you are no better than that desk jockey, eh?

Brooks

>
>
>
>
> Arthur Kramer

[Ragnar]

"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
...
> >Sq, Grp, and Wg commanders don't usually
> >fly lead or be the first over the target today.
>
> Not true.
>
> >In fact, every Grp or Wg
> >commander I've worked for since 1986 wasn't qualified under AF regs to
fly
> >lead.
>
> Hmmm, every group or wing commander I've known was a fully qualified
instructor
> not only capable of leading a formation or acting as a mission commander,
but
> capable of training others to do so.

Then we've been in different "real Air Forces".

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: resign commission for warrant officer questions
>From: "M. J. Powell"
>Date: 6/18/04 3:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In message >, ArtKramr
> writes
>>
>snip
>>
>>If you resign your commission you will never be a squadron commander, or a
>>group commander or a wing commander. You will never fly lead and have the
>>thrill of being the first over the target or the first to hit the enemy.Keep
>>your commission. Never throw away success.
>
>That last sentence is absolutely right. I did it once ( don't ask ) and
>have regretted it for 40 years.
>I can't comment on the main problem.
>
>Mike
>--
>M.J.Powell
>

And you are not dead yet. You may have another 30 or more years to keep
regretting it.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: resign commission for warrant officer questions
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 6/18/04 7:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Sq, Grp, and Wg commanders don't usually
>>fly lead or be the first over the target today.
>
>Not true.
>
>>In fact, every Grp or Wg
>>commander I've worked for since 1986 wasn't qualified under AF regs to fly
>>lead.
>
>Hmmm, every group or wing commander I've known was a fully qualified
>instructor
>not only capable of leading a formation or acting as a mission commander, but
>capable of training others to do so.
>
>
>BUFDRVR


As anyone who has flown in an active combat group knows all too well.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Tank Fixer]

In article >,
on 18 Jun 2004 04:11:27 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....

> >Subject: resign commission for warrant officer questions
> >From: (1LT 15B in AH-64D)
> >Date: 6/17/04 4:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >I am a 1LT in the Army National Guard, an Aviator, and I would like to
> >go on active duty. I have done some research and my options are to
> >apply to the Active Guard and Reserve or enter as a warrant. I have
> >been surrounded by warrants and I like them and there responsibilities
> >are real important and it would be a great honor to be counted in
> >their ranks. I cannot find out if I have to go to WOC school or not.
> >I have been to Federal OCS at Benning and a Federal Law Enforcement
> >Academy. I am interested in finding out if I have to attend yet
> >another candidate school. I hear it both ways but no AR has been
> >pointed out that states the facts definitively. Thanks for your help.
> >
>
>
> If you resign your commission you will never be a squadron commander, or a
> group commander or a wing commander. You will never fly lead and have the
> thrill of being the first over the target or the first to hit the enemy.Keep
> your commission. Never throw away success.

We don't have those in Army Aviation any longer Art.

And most of the flying is done by warrants


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

[BUFDRVR]

Ragnar wrote:

>Then we've been in different "real Air Forces".

I'm puzzled. Granted, I'm relatively "new" in the big scheme of things, but I
can recall squadron, group and yes wing commanders leading flights in nearly
every conflict since the birth of an independant Air Force. LeMay, as Group
commander led his group in its part in the Scweinfurt-Regensberg mission, so it
appears senior leaders have been leading combat strikes since at least WWII.
Billy Mitchell flew in the St. Mihel offensive, and he was the second ranking
U.S. aviator in France. I'm not doubting your experience, just curious as to
what time period we're comparing here?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Cub Driver]

On 19 Jun 2004 03:39:49 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

>I'm puzzled. Granted, I'm relatively "new" in the big scheme of things, but I
>can recall squadron, group and yes wing commanders leading flights in nearly
>every conflict since the birth of an independant Air Force.

The question was asked by a guy in army aviation. Does the army have
wing commanders?

I think I understand what he's after, besides getting on active duty.
(Good for him!) He wants to fly too, perhaps. What for a career path
does an army (commissioned) officer have in aviation? Forty years ago
all helicopter pilots were WOs, but I believe that's no longer true.
Indeed, I seem to recall a father-son team later in the Vietnam war,
where dad was an officer and son was a WO.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

[Kevin Brooks]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
> On 19 Jun 2004 03:39:49 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:
>
> >I'm puzzled. Granted, I'm relatively "new" in the big scheme of things,
but I
> >can recall squadron, group and yes wing commanders leading flights in
nearly
> >every conflict since the birth of an independant Air Force.
>
> The question was asked by a guy in army aviation. Does the army have
> wing commanders?
>
> I think I understand what he's after, besides getting on active duty.
> (Good for him!) He wants to fly too, perhaps. What for a career path
> does an army (commissioned) officer have in aviation? Forty years ago
> all helicopter pilots were WOs, but I believe that's no longer true.
> Indeed, I seem to recall a father-son team later in the Vietnam war,
> where dad was an officer and son was a WO.

I don't believe the Army has ever had an exclusively WO flying force;
commissioned officers did indeed fly helos forty years ago. But the majority
of the pilot force has been, and continues to be, provided by the WO side of
the house. And I believe your recollection is a bit off--the father-son team
you refer to was probably the Novosel's, where the father had indeed at one
time been a commissioned officer (former B-29 pilot) who later took a
warrant to fly helos for the Army; he and his son were both WO's, both
flying Dustoff UH-1H's in Vietnam in the same unit, IIRC. As Ron noted
earlier, the senior Novosel was awarded the MoH for action during that
conflict. He died eight or ten years ago, again IIRC.

Brooks


>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
> The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
> Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

[Ron]

>s Ron noted
>earlier, the senior Novosel was awarded the MoH for action during that
>conflict. He died eight or ten years ago, again IIRC.
>
>Brooks

I am pretty sure he is still alive.

Another interesting bit of trivia. The son was shot down while flying the
UH-1, the father rescued them.
Six days later, the fathers helo goes down, and this time the son is the one
rescueing the dad.


Ron
PA-31T Cheyenne II
Maharashtra Weather Modification Program
Pune, India

[Ragnar]

"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
...
> Ragnar wrote:
>
> >Then we've been in different "real Air Forces".
>
> I'm puzzled. Granted, I'm relatively "new" in the big scheme of things,
but I
> can recall squadron, group and yes wing commanders leading flights in
nearly
> every conflict since the birth of an independant Air Force. LeMay, as
Group
> commander led his group in its part in the Scweinfurt-Regensberg mission,
so it
> appears senior leaders have been leading combat strikes since at least
WWII.
> Billy Mitchell flew in the St. Mihel offensive, and he was the second
ranking
> U.S. aviator in France. I'm not doubting your experience, just curious as
to
> what time period we're comparing here?
\
My time period is 1983 and forward. My most recent flying wing had a
wing/cc that flew once a month and had an IP in the left seat the whole
time. The ops grp/cc was the same. All of the senior staff had an IP (or
equivalent) ride with them. They simply weren't qualified to fly the jet
unassisted.

[Ed Rasimus]

On 19 Jun 2004 03:39:49 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

>Ragnar wrote:
>
>>Then we've been in different "real Air Forces".
>
>I'm puzzled. Granted, I'm relatively "new" in the big scheme of things, but I
>can recall squadron, group and yes wing commanders leading flights in nearly
>every conflict since the birth of an independant Air Force. LeMay, as Group
>commander led his group in its part in the Scweinfurt-Regensberg mission, so it
>appears senior leaders have been leading combat strikes since at least WWII.
>Billy Mitchell flew in the St. Mihel offensive, and he was the second ranking
>U.S. aviator in France. I'm not doubting your experience, just curious as to
>what time period we're comparing here?
>
>BUFDRVR

I've seen it work both ways. Most assuredly there was a lot of
leadership by commanders during Rolling Thunder--guys like Robin Olds,
Bob Scott, Jack Broughton, Robbie Risner, etc, led strike packages.
But, there also were instances of wing CC's, DO's, etc, that
recognized that they lacked the skills or the time to properly prepare
a mission, so they flew wing. I never disparaged a commander with
that judgement.

Squadron CC's absolutely must fly in a leadership role, but sadly they
often don't. We've probably both seen good ones and bad ones.

The modern force increasingly seems to have a mix of careerists and
warriors. The careerists know the ins and outs of political maneuver
to eventually rise to the highest ranks. The warriors have other
priorities and different ethical standards. At some point you make
your choice of which path to follow.

A few, unfortunately too few, can be both--politically astute and
combat effective. Guys like Joe Ralston, Jack Chain, Chuck Horner,
Chuck Gabriel, etc.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Ed Rasimus]

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 01:31:38 +0900, "Ragnar" >
wrote:

>My time period is 1983 and forward. My most recent flying wing had a
>wing/cc that flew once a month and had an IP in the left seat the whole
>time. The ops grp/cc was the same. All of the senior staff had an IP (or
>equivalent) ride with them. They simply weren't qualified to fly the jet
>unassisted.
>

Used to be an AF reg that a general officer had to fly with an IP. The
trend for Wing CC's to be B/G would make what you encountered logical.

I recall, however, when I had a Wing CC at a pilot training base make
B/G, that he continued to fly with students, because he himself was
"an IP aboard". Also, as recounted in Tom Clancy's book "Every Man a
Tiger", Chuck Horner was flying F-16 missions single-seat during DS.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[BUFDRVR]

Ron wrote;

>Another interesting bit of trivia. The son was shot down while flying the
>UH-1, the father rescued them.
>Six days later, the fathers helo goes down, and this time the son is the one
>rescueing the dad.

I heard this story told, in person, when Novosel came to speak to my SOS class.
According to Novosel, he put his helo down immediately beside his son's downed
bird, but was forced to run over 100 yards through mud and swamp just a few
days later when his son picked him up. He said he reminds his son of that fact
to this day.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

Ed Rasimus wrote:

>Used to be an AF reg that a general officer had to fly with an IP.

Still is....I think.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

Ragnar wrote:

>My time period is 1983 and forward. My most recent flying wing had a
>wing/cc that flew once a month and had an IP in the left seat the whole
>time.

I guess the situation depends on your MWS. In the BUFF world, the only senior
leaders requiring an IP on every sortie were our B/G Wing Commanders. Our O-6
Wing/CCs and below all were fully qualified instructors. Now, granted,
depending on what was going on some of these guys "dropped dead" on currencies
now and again and were required to get re-current with an instructor on board,
but they all flew the minimum RAP sorties every month (usually) and in reality
and on paper were FMC instructors. In fact, best A/R instruction I ever
received as a young co-pilot was from our Wing/CV.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Kevin Brooks]

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> >s Ron noted
> >earlier, the senior Novosel was awarded the MoH for action during that
> >conflict. He died eight or ten years ago, again IIRC.
> >
> >Brooks
>
> I am pretty sure he is still alive.

It appears you are right, from what I have since found on the web. At least
he was alive last year when he testified before congress regarding the award
criteria for the combat medic badge! My mistake...

Brooks

>
> Another interesting bit of trivia. The son was shot down while flying
the
> UH-1, the father rescued them.
> Six days later, the fathers helo goes down, and this time the son is the
one
> rescueing the dad.
>
>
> Ron
> PA-31T Cheyenne II
> Maharashtra Weather Modification Program
> Pune, India
>

[Cub Driver]

On 19 Jun 2004 14:59:30 GMT, (Ron) wrote:

>Another interesting bit of trivia. The son was shot down while flying the
>UH-1, the father rescued them.
>Six days later, the fathers helo goes down, and this time the son is the one
>rescueing the dad.

Their story was wonderfully well told in a book I picked up at the
library, about fathers and sons in combat. (An idea that didn't quite
pan out. They were they only father-son vets of the same war, and many
of the entries didn't actually have a father-son match.) Can't
remember the name but worth reading for the chapters about these two
men. When the book was written (not long ago) they were living
side-by-side on the same street, still helping each other out.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

[1LT 15B in AH-64D]

Tank Fixer > wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> on 18 Jun 2004 04:11:27 GMT,
> ArtKramr attempted to say .....
>
> > >Subject: resign commission for warrant officer questions
> > >From: (1LT 15B in AH-64D)
> > >Date: 6/17/04 4:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> > >Message-id: >
> > >
> > >I am a 1LT in the Army National Guard, an Aviator, and I would like to
> > >go on active duty. I have done some research and my options are to
> > >apply to the Active Guard and Reserve or enter as a warrant. I have
> > >been surrounded by warrants and I like them and there responsibilities
> > >are real important and it would be a great honor to be counted in
> > >their ranks. I cannot find out if I have to go to WOC school or not.
> > >I have been to Federal OCS at Benning and a Federal Law Enforcement
> > >Academy. I am interested in finding out if I have to attend yet
> > >another candidate school. I hear it both ways but no AR has been
> > >pointed out that states the facts definitively. Thanks for your help.
> > >
> >
> >

My deal is that I am in a Federal Law Enforcement Agency and I am
facing a board that is known for dropping you without a thought. It
is a spanish board and I have never spoken the language before the
academy, but I graduated so I am in better shape for this test than
the fellows that did not make it. I am just thinking about the future
permutations of my situation, including leaving this agency and going
into active duty. Warrants definitely fly the most, are the IPs
usually, the SPs almost all the time (standardization pilots, the men
that decide how something will be done if there is any disagreement)
Maintenance test pilots, and PCs usually. I used to think that a
Warrant was not given the opportunity to lead as is the Real Life
Officer, RLO, but that was an immature thought. I understand now that
it is not the rank that does a leader make, but your personal gifts
and the example of leaders that taught you. A PC is the undisputed
responsible party for the safety and success of the crew. Warrants
take command all the time, so I don't need to be an O to take care of
soldiers and to help the Army.

I will hold on to my current position, because if I am released from
duty with my current employer, my guard unit still needs to send me to
a 6 month school to get qualified in the Longbow, and by that time if
I am reinstated the hiring freeze will be off of my agency after the
new fiscal year. Plus I love my civilian/federal job and want to
stick it our first.

Something else, Warrants are usually the SPs, IPs, IEs, MPs, DES
pilots, etc, technically expert pilots in other words, because they
don't have to fly a desk as often as the planners, the real life
officers.

I think I can sense a split in this thread, between USAF and USA. I
don't think that there are very many warrants in the USAF so it
doesn't make sensein their minds to go from a LT or CPT or even MAJ to
a WO1 or WO2. In the Army we have a lot of warrants, I mean ALOT and
they are very important for advising the RLOs and helping us make the
best decisions. The fact that our aviation units are based on
platoons would indicate why USAF personnel would seem out of touch
with this subject. Army aviation seems to work alot like a regular
army unit, we just get into trucks and tanks that have a vertical lift
component. Of course the fixed wing assets we do have are pretty much
all flown by warrants too. Anyhoo, if I can pass this spanish board,
and another one 3 months down the road, then it is two more years and
I will be able to fly for this agency I am in now, and that is the
current plan.

[Cub Driver]

Good luck, however it turns out!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

[Tank Fixer]

In article >,
on 21 Jun 2004 21:46:37 -0700,
1LT 15B in AH-64D attempted to say .....

> Tank Fixer > wrote in message >...
> > In article >,
> > on 18 Jun 2004 04:11:27 GMT,
> > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
> >
> > > >Subject: resign commission for warrant officer questions
> > > >From: (1LT 15B in AH-64D)
> > > >Date: 6/17/04 4:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> > > >Message-id: >
> > > >
> > > >I am a 1LT in the Army National Guard, an Aviator, and I would like to
> > > >go on active duty. I have done some research and my options are to
> > > >apply to the Active Guard and Reserve or enter as a warrant. I have
> > > >been surrounded by warrants and I like them and there responsibilities
> > > >are real important and it would be a great honor to be counted in
> > > >their ranks. I cannot find out if I have to go to WOC school or not.
> > > >I have been to Federal OCS at Benning and a Federal Law Enforcement
> > > >Academy. I am interested in finding out if I have to attend yet
> > > >another candidate school. I hear it both ways but no AR has been
> > > >pointed out that states the facts definitively. Thanks for your help.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
>
> My deal is that I am in a Federal Law Enforcement Agency and I am
> facing a board that is known for dropping you without a thought. It
> is a spanish board and I have never spoken the language before the
> academy, but I graduated so I am in better shape for this test than
> the fellows that did not make it. I am just thinking about the future
> permutations of my situation, including leaving this agency and going
> into active duty. Warrants definitely fly the most, are the IPs
> usually, the SPs almost all the time (standardization pilots, the men
> that decide how something will be done if there is any disagreement)
> Maintenance test pilots, and PCs usually. I used to think that a
> Warrant was not given the opportunity to lead as is the Real Life
> Officer, RLO, but that was an immature thought. I understand now that
> it is not the rank that does a leader make, but your personal gifts
> and the example of leaders that taught you. A PC is the undisputed
> responsible party for the safety and success of the crew. Warrants
> take command all the time, so I don't need to be an O to take care of
> soldiers and to help the Army.
>
> I will hold on to my current position, because if I am released from
> duty with my current employer, my guard unit still needs to send me to
> a 6 month school to get qualified in the Longbow, and by that time if
> I am reinstated the hiring freeze will be off of my agency after the
> new fiscal year. Plus I love my civilian/federal job and want to
> stick it our first.
>
> Something else, Warrants are usually the SPs, IPs, IEs, MPs, DES
> pilots, etc, technically expert pilots in other words, because they
> don't have to fly a desk as often as the planners, the real life
> officers.
>
> I think I can sense a split in this thread, between USAF and USA. I
> don't think that there are very many warrants in the USAF so it
> doesn't make sensein their minds to go from a LT or CPT or even MAJ to
> a WO1 or WO2. In the Army we have a lot of warrants, I mean ALOT and
> they are very important for advising the RLOs and helping us make the
> best decisions. The fact that our aviation units are based on
> platoons would indicate why USAF personnel would seem out of touch
> with this subject. Army aviation seems to work alot like a regular
> army unit, we just get into trucks and tanks that have a vertical lift
> component. Of course the fixed wing assets we do have are pretty much
> all flown by warrants too. Anyhoo, if I can pass this spanish board,
> and another one 3 months down the road, then it is two more years and
> I will be able to fly for this agency I am in now, and that is the
> current plan.


I know in the maintenance community there are CWO commanding detachments, I
don't know about the aviation side of the house.

It sounds like you have a plan mapped out to handle either situation.
You might also talk to the officer recruiter for your state's National
Guard. There are some full time Guard flying spots out there...

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.