Correct way of holding the stick during ground roll?

[Michael[_7_]]

Very beginning pilot here (again).....and I am confused about the
appropriate way of holding the stick during the ground roll prior to
take off.

In Thomas Knauff's Glider Basics, he states (p.59, 2005 edition):
"....before signaling to proceed with the launch, the glider pilot
should set the elevator by holding the control stick at the
approximate position that will result in the proper angle of attack.
To do this, move the control stick the full allowable travel fore and
aft, and then find the mid-point, or neutral position. Move the
control stick back about 1/2 inch from this neutral position. This
will be very close to the optimum position for takeoff. Aircraft
designers build aircraft this way."

However, in Russell Holtz's Flight Training for Gliders, I see (p. 27,
2008 edition): "If the glider norally rests on its main wheel and tail
wheel, the stick should be held forward of neutral, so the as the
glider picks up speed, the tail wheel will rise off the ground."

I'm training in a Blanik L-23, which has a main wheel and a
tailwheel. Knauff makes no mention of whether to hold the stick
forward or aft depending on if the glider has a tail wheel or a nose
wheel, yet Holtz does.

(It's been three weeks since I've flown, and I can't remember what my
instructors did.)

For a glider with a tail wheel, which is correct?

--Michael

[sisu1a]

> For a glider with a tail wheel, which is correct?
>
> --Michael

Forward for a taildragger, to get the hockey puck (in the case of the
L23, other taildraggers have nice pneumatic tailwheels) off the ground
as soon as possible and begin 'flying' on one wheel. Stick back for a
nose dragger, to get the skid/nosewheel up asap. In both cases use
whatever amount of stick req to keep it balanced on the one wheel once
until the plane is actually ready to lift off...

Most gliders have a tailwheel... but the L23 is a taildragger. The
tailwheel on the nosedraggers is generally for ground handling.

-Paul

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

My suggestioin would be stick forward to get the tail in the air. This
way, you are in control of the airplane. If you leave the tail in the
ground, the airplane will take off when it wants to, leaving you to react
to what it has just done. I believe your task is to make the airplane do
what you want it to do, and not to try to catch up with what it just did.

And if you were flying a nose dragger, I would start wit the stick back to
get the skid up off the ground.

The above assumes air tow for your launch method. Nose draggers and
winches often will require the stick be held full forward at the start of
launch. Why? High enough initial acceleration to change it to a tail
dragger!

My two cents, and I am NOT an instructor. So, you just got more advice
than you paid for.

Steve Leonard

[Dave Nadler]

On May 4, 3:12*am, Michael > wrote:
> Very beginning pilot here (again).....and I am confused about the
> appropriate way of holding the stick during the ground roll prior to
> take off.
>
> In Thomas Knauff's Glider Basics, he states (p.59, 2005 edition):
> "....before signaling to proceed with the launch, the glider pilot
> should set the elevator by holding the control stick at the
> approximate position that will result in the proper angle of attack.
> To do this, move the control stick the full allowable travel fore and
> aft, and then find the mid-point, or neutral position. *Move the
> control stick back about 1/2 inch from this neutral position. *This
> will be very close to the optimum position for takeoff. Aircraft
> designers build aircraft this way."
>
> However, in Russell Holtz's Flight Training for Gliders, I see (p. 27,
> 2008 edition): "If the glider norally rests on its main wheel and tail
> wheel, the stick should be held forward of neutral, so the as the
> glider picks up speed, the tail wheel will rise off the ground."
>
> I'm training in a Blanik L-23, which has a main wheel and a
> tailwheel. * Knauff makes no mention of whether to hold the stick
> forward or aft depending on if the glider has a tail wheel or a nose
> wheel, yet Holtz does.
>
> (It's been three weeks since I've flown, and I can't remember what my
> instructors did.)
>
> For a glider with a tail wheel, which is correct?
>
> --Michael

Careful !

It depends on the glider, launch mechanism, and weather.

Tom's advice is the best general advice you'll find.

For a glider with a non-swiveling tailwheel or tailskid,
in a cross-wind, proper procedure MAY be full
back, to keep the glider tracking straight until
you have good directional control.

There are plenty of gliders where lifting the tail
too soon with even a mild crosswind will cause
an immediate turn into the wind...

Talk to your instructor !
And review the proper procedure
when flying a new type...

Hope that helps,
See ya, Dave "YO electric"

PS: Tom's advice worked for the first-time 1-26
student pilot I briefed yesterday - absolutely no PIO...

[TonyV[_2_]]

Dave Nadler wrote:
> Careful !
>
> It depends on the glider, launch mechanism, and weather.


"It depends" is good advice from Dave. to further illustrate the point,
in a nose dragger, you'd be generally advised to hold the stick back
to get the skid / nose wheel off the ground ASAP. However, if this nose
dragger happens to a 2-33 and the tow plane makes an abrupt start, the
skid will come off the ground by itself and the tail will slam onto the
ground and there's nothing that you can do about it. You'd be well
advised to start with the stick full forward in this case.

On a calm wind day, The starting position of the stick is not too
important, IMHO, because the controls are relatively ineffective at the
start. When the wind blows, it's another story.

Tony V.

[[email protected]]

On May 4, 6:42*am, TonyV > wrote:
> Dave Nadler wrote:
> > Careful !
>
> > It depends on the glider, launch mechanism, and weather.
>
> "It depends" is good advice from Dave. to further illustrate the point,
> * in a nose dragger, you'd be generally advised to hold the stick back
> to get the skid / nose wheel off the ground ASAP. However, if this nose
> dragger happens to a 2-33 and the tow plane makes an abrupt start, the
> skid will come off the ground by itself and the tail will slam onto the
> ground and there's nothing that you can do about it. You'd be well
> advised to start with the stick full forward in this case.
>
> On a calm wind day, The starting position of the stick is not too
> important, IMHO, because the controls are relatively ineffective at the
> start. When the wind blows, it's another story.
>
> Tony V.

Not to be overly facetious, but if you are positioning the primary
controls based on directions you took off the Internet, you are likely
to end up a bit behind the glider.

One of the main ideas in flight training is to develop a strong sense
of what you want the airplane to do under any circumstance and how you
need to manipulate the controls to get the airplane to do exactly
that. A mechanistic approach to flying will inevitably get you into
trouble. This, of course, is why when you ask what seems to be a
simple, mechanical question you get a dozen (or more!) replies with a
lot of "it depends" included.

Having said that, I know it isn't super helpful to someone with less
than a handful of lessons. I think you've gotten a sense from the
replies that there are many differences that determine the right
answer. Differences in: glider configuration (tailwheel - swiveling
or fixed versus nosewheel/skid AND cockpit loading/cg), wind
conditions (stong/weak, head/cross), tow type and profile (aero/winch,
fast/slow acceleration), wing runner performance (pointed down the
runway with wings level vs all sorts of messed up attitudes). What you
need to do in one circumstance can be totally different for another.

THAT said, generally with a glider with a fixed tailwheel that tends
to sit on the tail with the pilots aboard, reasonable wind conditions,
a straight and true wing run and an aero tow behind a towplane with
average power for the density altitude (forgot to put that one on my
list), your first instinct should be to push the stick modestly
forward once you have a little airspeed to get the tailwheel off the
ground so you can steer with the rudder and to put the wing at a
normal flying angle of attack so that the glider doesn't balloon off
the runway once it gets flying speed.

Again - you are the pilot. You will need to understand the balance of
all the forces on the glider and how moving the controls will change
that in ways that are predictable.

9B

[Ron Ogden]

At 17:58 04 May 2009, wrote:
>On May 4, 6:42=A0am, TonyV wrote:
>> Dave Nadler wrote:
>> > Careful !
>>
>> > It depends on the glider, launch mechanism, and weather.
>>
>> "It depends" is good advice from Dave. to further illustrate the
point,
>> =A0 in a nose dragger, you'd be generally advised to hold the stick
back
>> to get the skid / nose wheel off the ground ASAP. However, if this
nose
>> dragger happens to a 2-33 and the tow plane makes an abrupt start, the
>> skid will come off the ground by itself and the tail will slam onto
the
>> ground and there's nothing that you can do about it. You'd be well
>> advised to start with the stick full forward in this case.
>>
>> On a calm wind day, The starting position of the stick is not too
>> important, IMHO, because the controls are relatively ineffective at
the
>> start. When the wind blows, it's another story.
>>
>> Tony V.
>
>Not to be overly facetious, but if you are positioning the primary
>controls based on directions you took off the Internet, you are likely
>to end up a bit behind the glider.
>
>One of the main ideas in flight training is to develop a strong sense
>of what you want the airplane to do under any circumstance and how you
>need to manipulate the controls to get the airplane to do exactly
>that. A mechanistic approach to flying will inevitably get you into
>trouble. This, of course, is why when you ask what seems to be a
>simple, mechanical question you get a dozen (or more!) replies with a
>lot of "it depends" included.
>
>Having said that, I know it isn't super helpful to someone with less
>than a handful of lessons. I think you've gotten a sense from the
>replies that there are many differences that determine the right
>answer. Differences in: glider configuration (tailwheel - swiveling
>or fixed versus nosewheel/skid AND cockpit loading/cg), wind
>conditions (stong/weak, head/cross), tow type and profile (aero/winch,
>fast/slow acceleration), wing runner performance (pointed down the
>runway with wings level vs all sorts of messed up attitudes). What you
>need to do in one circumstance can be totally different for another.
>
>THAT said, generally with a glider with a fixed tailwheel that tends
>to sit on the tail with the pilots aboard, reasonable wind conditions,
>a straight and true wing run and an aero tow behind a towplane with
>average power for the density altitude (forgot to put that one on my
>list), your first instinct should be to push the stick modestly
>forward once you have a little airspeed to get the tailwheel off the
>ground so you can steer with the rudder and to put the wing at a
>normal flying angle of attack so that the glider doesn't balloon off
>the runway once it gets flying speed.
>
>Again - you are the pilot. You will need to understand the balance of
>all the forces on the glider and how moving the controls will change
>that in ways that are predictable.
>
>9B
>When flying a 2-33 or 2-22, which have high wings supported by struts and
which normally rest on their nose skids because the main wheel is aft of
the CG, rapid acceleration and light cabin load will allow the nose to
rapidly rise and the tail to bang in a way that is good niether for the
airframe nor the psyche. Furthermore, you will expose a lot of wing to the
propwash of the towplane, and in the case of a Pawnee, that can be
substantial. With your nose high and strong propwash, you will get a rapid
and sometimes nearly uncontrollable roll movement to the right. It will
come into control within a moment or two, but those two moments are
exciting, even for veteran 2-33ers. Lesson: pay attention to loading and
if you think you are lighter than average, ask the tow pilot to go easy on
the throttle in the start of the roll.

[BT]

I like Paul's answer.. and that is how I instruct my students.
But the best answer is.. "What your instructor tells you".
BT

"sisu1a" > wrote in message
...
>
>> For a glider with a tail wheel, which is correct?
>>
>> --Michael
>
> Forward for a taildragger, to get the hockey puck (in the case of the
> L23, other taildraggers have nice pneumatic tailwheels) off the ground
> as soon as possible and begin 'flying' on one wheel. Stick back for a
> nose dragger, to get the skid/nosewheel up asap. In both cases use
> whatever amount of stick req to keep it balanced on the one wheel once
> until the plane is actually ready to lift off...
>
> Most gliders have a tailwheel... but the L23 is a taildragger. The
> tailwheel on the nosedraggers is generally for ground handling.
>
> -Paul

[BT]

>>When flying a 2-33 or 2-22, which have high wings supported by struts and
> which normally rest on their nose skids because the main wheel is aft of
> the CG, rapid acceleration and light cabin load will allow the nose to
> rapidly rise and the tail to bang in a way that is good niether for the
> airframe nor the psyche. Furthermore, you will expose a lot of wing to the
> propwash of the towplane, and in the case of a Pawnee, that can be
> substantial. With your nose high and strong propwash, you will get a rapid
> and sometimes nearly uncontrollable roll movement to the right. It will
> come into control within a moment or two, but those two moments are
> exciting, even for veteran 2-33ers. Lesson: pay attention to loading and
> if you think you are lighter than average, ask the tow pilot to go easy on
> the throttle in the start of the roll.
>

Then you need to tell your tow pilot to be a little more gentle with
throttle application.
Even with light students in the front seat, smoother application of the tow
throttle can keep the nose from rocketing up while still providing enough
acceleration to provide roll and pitch control.

BT

[Eric Greenwell]

Steve Leonard wrote:
> My suggestioin would be stick forward to get the tail in the air. This
> way, you are in control of the airplane. If you leave the tail in the
> ground, the airplane will take off when it wants to, leaving you to react
> to what it has just done. I believe your task is to make the airplane do
> what you want it to do, and not to try to catch up with what it just did.

Steve's method is the commonly used one on a good runway surface (and a
cross wind is not a significant factor), as it's easier to control the
glider; however, keeping the tail on the ground is a standard method for
soft field takeoffs, when you want the main wheel weight reduced as fast
as possible. It may also be useful on a rough field, when you want to
get off the ground as soon as possible. It is the recommended method for
both situations in my ASH 26 E flight manual.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* Sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[TonyV[_2_]]

> Then you need to tell your tow pilot to be a little more gentle with
> throttle application.
> Even with light students in the front seat, smoother application of the tow
> throttle can keep the nose from rocketing up while still providing enough
> acceleration to provide roll and pitch control.

I used to fly commercial rides in a 2-33 from a 1500 ft grass runway
with 70 ft trees on one end and a barbed wire fence at the other (about
150 MSL, BTW). You always got an "energetic" start and the nose would
*always* pop up whether you liked it or not. We started the take off
roll with the stick full forward. I would *always* brief the passenger
accordingly.

Tony V.
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING

[hretting]

I'm not sure Michael has an instructor. These are basic questions that
should be answered only by his instructor. Asking them should improve
the bonding and love that we all had with ours. It seems as if he is
learning to fly gliders thru the RAS site and I'm not sure that is a
good idea. Lets wait until after he groundloops his first glass ship
and we can all recommend the best way to remove the stain from his
shorts.
R

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 23:51 04 May 2009, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>Steve Leonard wrote:
>> My suggestioin would be stick forward to get the tail in the air.
This
>> way, you are in control of the airplane. If you leave the tail in the
>> ground, the airplane will take off when it wants to, leaving you to
>react
>> to what it has just done. I believe your task is to make the airplane
>do
>> what you want it to do, and not to try to catch up with what it just
>did.
>
>Steve's method is the commonly used one on a good runway surface (and a

>cross wind is not a significant factor), as it's easier to control the
>glider; however, keeping the tail on the ground is a standard method for

>soft field takeoffs, when you want the main wheel weight reduced as fast

>as possible. It may also be useful on a rough field, when you want to
>get off the ground as soon as possible. It is the recommended method for

>both situations in my ASH 26 E flight manual.

It is very common in flapped gliders to nail the tailwheel to the ground
and you are able to do this because with full negative flap you are not
going to leave the ground or "winch launch" behind the tug. Keeping the
tailwheel on the ground is definitely the thing to do in a crosswind. In
many, if not all flapped gliders with full negative flap the tug may get
airborn but the glider is going by road. However for gliders which do not
have a flaps, or if they do, do not have a negative setting great care is
needed and keeping the tailwheel firmly on the ground for too long can
result in something very scary.
>

>

[[email protected]]

On May 4, 7:26*pm, hretting > wrote:
> I'm not sure Michael has an instructor. These are basic questions that
> should be answered only by his instructor. Asking them should improve
> the bonding and love that we all had with ours. It seems as if he is
> learning to fly gliders thru the RAS site and I'm not sure that is a
> good idea. Lets wait until after he groundloops his first glass ship
> and we can all recommend the best way to remove the stain from his
> shorts.
> R

Henry is absolutely correct.
Communicate with your instructor and read your glider's Flight Manual.
Changing conditions may mean changing your technique, so strive to "Be
One with the Glider."

[Udo Rumpf[_2_]]

I have not read the thread but I clicked on because of your name and sure
enough it is funny.
see you soon.
Udo

At 00:26 05 May 2009, hretting wrote:
>I'm not sure Michael has an instructor. These are basic questions that
>should be answered only by his instructor. Asking them should improve
>the bonding and love that we all had with ours. It seems as if he is
>learning to fly gliders thru the RAS site and I'm not sure that is a
>good idea. Lets wait until after he groundloops his first glass ship
>and we can all recommend the best way to remove the stain from his
>shorts.
>R
>

[Frank[_1_]]

On May 4, 3:12*am, Michael > wrote:
> Very beginning pilot here (again).....and I am confused about the
> appropriate way of holding the stick during the ground roll prior to
> take off.
>
> In Thomas Knauff's Glider Basics, he states (p.59, 2005 edition):
> "....before signaling to proceed with the launch, the glider pilot
> should set the elevator by holding the control stick at the
> approximate position that will result in the proper angle of attack.
> To do this, move the control stick the full allowable travel fore and
> aft, and then find the mid-point, or neutral position. *Move the
> control stick back about 1/2 inch from this neutral position. *This
> will be very close to the optimum position for takeoff. Aircraft
> designers build aircraft this way."
>
> However, in Russell Holtz's Flight Training for Gliders, I see (p. 27,
> 2008 edition): "If the glider norally rests on its main wheel and tail
> wheel, the stick should be held forward of neutral, so the as the
> glider picks up speed, the tail wheel will rise off the ground."
>
> I'm training in a Blanik L-23, which has a main wheel and a
> tailwheel. * Knauff makes no mention of whether to hold the stick
> forward or aft depending on if the glider has a tail wheel or a nose
> wheel, yet Holtz does.
>
> (It's been three weeks since I've flown, and I can't remember what my
> instructors did.)
>
> For a glider with a tail wheel, which is correct?
>
> --Michael

Michael,

Get a copy of the Condor soaring simulator (www.condorsoaring.com) and
do a 100 or so takeoffs in various wind conditions and different
sailplanes. Condor is realistic enough so you will get the picture
(literally) quickly.

What others may not have mentioned explicitly is that the initial
period only lasts for a few seconds during the first part of the
ground run. Once you have enough airspeed for decent elevator control,
then the initial stick position is irrelevant - you do whatever is
required to obtain the correct flying attitude during the rest of the
ground roll and takeoff.

Just my $0.02.
Frank (TA)

[[email protected]]

All the theory behind the above advice is probably correct, but
regardless of who is asking the question, the aircraft being flown,
etc, a simple instruction that is easy for the student to remember
and at the same time encourages the student to fly by reference and
react intuitively to the dynamics of the aircraft movement is:

Keep the wings level and the aircraft running on the wheel in line
with the launch direction. When flying speed is achieved allow the
aircraft to become airborne and assume the correct launch attitude.
This instruction applies to all launch methods and is relevant for any
glider no matter how the controls are rigged or mis-rigged or whether
the glider has a nose or tail wheel. If the student does not
understand these brief instructions then the student should probably
not be attempting the take off until a better understanding of how the
aircraft reacts to control inputs is attained. Put the stick here is
no more effective than turn in to land when you are over the little
house with the red roof.

I guess I am sold on this one as these are the instructions I received
when learning to fly in a mixed launch environment. I later learned a
similar lesson when being checked out for towing on a mixed fleet of
tow planes that had engines that rotated the props in different
directions. The answer to which rudder to favor during the take off
roll was and still is:

The one that keeps the aircraft rolling in a straight line.

For unusual conditions or aircraft the instructor only needs to advise
the student on the likely forces that may affect the take off to allow
the student to anticipate and carry out the necessary corrections.
Teaching flying by reference is what counts in the air and it no less
relevant on the ground.

Andy Gough

[TonyV[_2_]]

> Henry is absolutely correct.
> Communicate with your instructor and read your glider's Flight Manual.
> Changing conditions may mean changing your technique, so strive to "Be
> One with the Glider."


I'm visualizing the cover of your next book "Zen and the Art of Glider
Flying".

Tony

[[email protected]]

On May 4, 12:12*am, Michael > wrote:
> Very beginning pilot here (again).....and I am confused about the
> appropriate way of holding the stick during the ground roll prior to
> take off.
>
> In Thomas Knauff's Glider Basics, he states (p.59, 2005 edition):
> "....before signaling to proceed with the launch, the glider pilot
> should set the elevator by holding the control stick at the
> approximate position that will result in the proper angle of attack.
> To do this, move the control stick the full allowable travel fore and
> aft, and then find the mid-point, or neutral position. *Move the
> control stick back about 1/2 inch from this neutral position. *This
> will be very close to the optimum position for takeoff. Aircraft
> designers build aircraft this way."
>
> However, in Russell Holtz's Flight Training for Gliders, I see (p. 27,
> 2008 edition): "If the glider norally rests on its main wheel and tail
> wheel, the stick should be held forward of neutral, so the as the
> glider picks up speed, the tail wheel will rise off the ground."
>
> I'm training in a Blanik L-23, which has a main wheel and a
> tailwheel. * Knauff makes no mention of whether to hold the stick
> forward or aft depending on if the glider has a tail wheel or a nose
> wheel, yet Holtz does.
>
> (It's been three weeks since I've flown, and I can't remember what my
> instructors did.)
>
> For a glider with a tail wheel, which is correct?
>
> --Michael

Michael,

I wanted to respond to your questions with the reasons that I advocate
the takeoff technique described in the Flight Training Manual for
Gliders.

I recommend getting the glider balanced on the main wheel as soon as
possible. You can see why this is important if you look at what can
happen if you keep either the tail wheel or the nose wheel on the
ground too long.

In a tail dragger, if you hold too much back pressure (or the elevator
is trimmed too far back) the glider will lift off while the tail is
still being “pushed” into the ground by the elevator. The glider can
then lift it’s main wheel off of the ground, but keep increasing it’s
angle of attack because the excess back pressure keeps the tail wheel
on the ground. The glider can either stall, or more likely, lurch
into the air and climb rapidly. This could pull the tail of the tow
plane up, driving it’s nose into the ground. Or, as the glider lifts
off rapidly, the pilot/student will often over control, causing the
glider to slam back down to the ground, possibly starting a pilot
induced oscillation.

With a nose dragger, if you hold too much forward pressure (or the
elevator is trimmed too far forward), the glider can reach flying
speed, yet still not be flying because the angle of attack is too low
to generate sufficient lift. If the stick is then moved back to lift
the nose, the glider can lurch into the air quickly, causing the same
problems just described.

And finally, look what could happen if the glider hits a bump while
rolling on the nose or tail wheels, as opposed to what happens if it
hits a bump while balanced on the main wheel. A bump to the tail
wheel can damage it, or drive the nose into the ground. A bump to the
nose wheel can cause a rapid increase in angle of attack which, if
sufficient speed has been reached, can cause the glider to lurch into
the air, or if flying speed has not been reached, the glider can slam
onto the tail wheel, damaging it or the rear fuselage. If you hit a
bump while balancing on the main wheel, the force will act very near
the center of gravity, and will not cause a change to the pitch or
angle of attack.

So, whether you are flying a tail dragger or a nose dragger, the goal
should be to get the glider in to a flying attitude as soon as
possible. To achieve this, during the initial roll on take off, make
sure the stick is held well forward in a tail dragger, or well aft in
a nose dragger.

I hope this helps to clear things up.

Russell Holtz

[Surfer!]

In message
>,
writes
<snip>
>
>So, whether you are flying a tail dragger or a nose dragger, the goal
>should be to get the glider in to a flying attitude as soon as
>possible. To achieve this, during the initial roll on take off, make
>sure the stick is held well forward in a tail dragger, or well aft in
>a nose dragger.

This is not the advice I was trained to in the UK. For an aerotow we
always start with the stick right back, and easy it forwards as the tug
accelerates. This we do with both taildraggers (the average
single-seater) and gliders like the K21 and DG500/505 that rest on the
nose wheel once the crew is in. The runway is usually grass.

For a winch launch we start with a neutral stick as acceleration to
flying is usually very fast, and it's vital that the early part of the
flight and the rotation are well-controlled.

Ask your instructor to run through it again next time you fly - IMHO
that's much safer than taking advice from anonymous strangers and
possibly finding it's not what your instructor wants you doing.

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

[Alan[_6_]]

In article > writes:

>Michael,
>
>I wanted to respond to your questions with the reasons that I advocate
>the takeoff technique described in the Flight Training Manual for
>Gliders.
>
>I recommend getting the glider balanced on the main wheel as soon as
>possible. You can see why this is important if you look at what can
>happen if you keep either the tail wheel or the nose wheel on the
>ground too long.
>
>In a tail dragger, if you hold too much back pressure (or the elevator
>is trimmed too far back) the glider will lift off while the tail is
>still being =93pushed=94 into the ground by the elevator. The glider can
>then lift it=92s main wheel off of the ground, but keep increasing it=92s
>angle of attack because the excess back pressure keeps the tail wheel
>on the ground. The glider can either stall, or more likely, lurch
>into the air and climb rapidly. This could pull the tail of the tow
>plane up, driving it=92s nose into the ground. Or, as the glider lifts
>off rapidly, the pilot/student will often over control, causing the
>glider to slam back down to the ground, possibly starting a pilot
>induced oscillation.
>
>With a nose dragger, if you hold too much forward pressure (or the
>elevator is trimmed too far forward), the glider can reach flying
>speed, yet still not be flying because the angle of attack is too low
>to generate sufficient lift. If the stick is then moved back to lift
>the nose, the glider can lurch into the air quickly, causing the same
>problems just described.
>
>And finally, look what could happen if the glider hits a bump while
>rolling on the nose or tail wheels, as opposed to what happens if it
>hits a bump while balanced on the main wheel. A bump to the tail
>wheel can damage it, or drive the nose into the ground. A bump to the
>nose wheel can cause a rapid increase in angle of attack which, if
>sufficient speed has been reached, can cause the glider to lurch into
>the air, or if flying speed has not been reached, the glider can slam
>onto the tail wheel, damaging it or the rear fuselage. If you hit a
>bump while balancing on the main wheel, the force will act very near
>the center of gravity, and will not cause a change to the pitch or
>angle of attack.
>
>So, whether you are flying a tail dragger or a nose dragger, the goal
>should be to get the glider in to a flying attitude as soon as
>possible. To achieve this, during the initial roll on take off, make
>sure the stick is held well forward in a tail dragger, or well aft in
>a nose dragger.
>
>I hope this helps to clear things up.
>
>Russell Holtz

Gee, and Charlie had me holding it forward of neutral in the 2-32,
sort of the opposite of "well aft".

Alan

[Matthew Ladley]

At 07:11 06 May 2009, Surfer! wrote:
>In message
>,
writes
>
>>
>>So, whether you are flying a tail dragger or a nose dragger, the goal
>>should be to get the glider in to a flying attitude as soon as
>>possible. To achieve this, during the initial roll on take off, make
>>sure the stick is held well forward in a tail dragger, or well aft in
>>a nose dragger.
>
>This is not the advice I was trained to in the UK. For an aerotow we
>always start with the stick right back, and easy it forwards as the tug
>accelerates. This we do with both taildraggers (the average
>single-seater) and gliders like the K21 and DG500/505 that rest on the
>nose wheel once the crew is in. The runway is usually grass.
>
>For a winch launch we start with a neutral stick as acceleration to
>flying is usually very fast, and it's vital that the early part of the
>flight and the rotation are well-controlled.
>
>Ask your instructor to run through it again next time you fly - IMHO
>that's much safer than taking advice from anonymous strangers and
>possibly finding it's not what your instructor wants you doing.
>
>--
>Surfer!
>Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net
>


Just out of interest, what is the reason given for holding the stick back
and gradually easing forwards for all gliders? i can understand for a
'nose dragger' (for want of a better term) especially on grass to avoid
damage to the nose wheel. I would always be inclined to adopt the
technique as described in the previous posting.

matt

[TonyV[_2_]]

Mike the Strike wrote:

> The correct answer therefore depends on the ship, its hook location,
> method of tow and weather conditions.


Yes, once again, "it depends". I think that Russell's advice is
generally good and is what I do on most gliders - except for my LS-6. I
used to get the glider off of the tail wheel as soon as possible but
found I had much longer than expected ground rolls. About 3 years ago,
as an experiment, I set the trim, left the stick neutral and kept the
tail wheel on the ground until a gentle back pressure at flying speed
caused the glider to lift one foot off of the ground with no hint of
ballooning and no stick pressure at all. I've been doing that ever
since. YMMV.

Tony V

[Nyal Williams[_2_]]

If the tail wheel is on the ground, how can back pressure make the glider
lift off? The AoA can't be increased; I'd say it lifts off when a
certain speed is reached with no stick movement at all.

(The real answer to the question in the header is "Thumb and two
fingers.)

At 23:04 06 May 2009, TonyV wrote:
>Mike the Strike wrote:
>
> > The correct answer therefore depends on the ship, its hook location,
> > method of tow and weather conditions.
>
>
>Yes, once again, "it depends". I think that Russell's advice is
>generally good and is what I do on most gliders - except for my LS-6. I
>used to get the glider off of the tail wheel as soon as possible but
>found I had much longer than expected ground rolls. About 3 years ago,
>as an experiment, I set the trim, left the stick neutral and kept the
>tail wheel on the ground until a gentle back pressure at flying speed
>caused the glider to lift one foot off of the ground with no hint of
>ballooning and no stick pressure at all. I've been doing that ever
>since. YMMV.
>
>Tony V
>

[Darryl Ramm]

On May 6, 7:45*pm, Nyal Williams > wrote:
> If the tail wheel is on the ground, how can back pressure make the glider
> lift off? *The AoA can't be increased; I'd say it lifts off when a
> certain speed is reached with no stick movement at all.
>
> (The real answer to the question in the header is "Thumb and two
> fingers.)
>
> At 23:04 06 May 2009, TonyV wrote:
>
> >Mike the Strike wrote:
>
> > > The correct answer therefore depends on the ship, its hook location,
> > > method of tow and weather conditions.
>
> >Yes, once again, "it depends". I think that Russell's advice is
> >generally good and is what I do on most gliders - except for my LS-6. I
> >used to get the glider off of the tail wheel as soon as possible but
> >found I had much longer than expected ground rolls. About 3 years ago,
> >as an experiment, I set the trim, left the stick neutral and kept the
> >tail wheel on the ground until a gentle back pressure at flying speed
> >caused the glider to lift one foot off of the ground with no hint of
> >ballooning and no stick pressure at all. I've been doing that ever
> >since. YMMV.
>
> >Tony V
>
>

Apparently not if you are Karl Striedieck. See A fine weekend... Not
an option in my motorglider. Right hand on stick. Left hand closes and
locks spoiler, left hand on throttle, left hand changing flap setting,
left hand blocking unintended spoiler open, left hand back to
throttle, left hand scratching head, ...

---

So Michael - the real answer is stop trying to learn to fly by asking
for opinions/voting on ras. You won't know enough yet to judge the
advice, a lot of which will conflict (e.g. depending on type of ship,
pilot skill etc.). If your flight instructor(s) can't answer these
questions and/or do not cover them as a natural part of the flight
training then go find somewhere else to learn to fly. This is not idle
commentary, if the basics are not being covered and/or you don't have
a relationship with your instructor(s) where you can discuss things
then maybe somebody will be scraping parts of you off the ground when
something goes horribly wrong.

And while flying with different instructors is often a good thing as
you get to share different teaching skills, ideas and tips but at an
early stage it can be a problem. If you have instructor blur speak up
and see if you can get with one instructor for the early training.

At an early stage your instructor may well want to ignore a lot of
detail and help you focus on specific relatively simple tasks (simple
only once you pass the uh ha! moment). That may be why they are not
getting into some topics with you. Again talk to them about this. If
that is the case, you might want to talk with them about when these
things will get covered in the training (they hopefully provided you
with a written practical training syllabus) and don't sweat those
details now.

Darryl

[Darryl Ramm]

On May 6, 12:47*am, (Alan) wrote:
> In article > writes:
>
>
>
> >Michael,
>
> >I wanted to respond to your questions with the reasons that I advocate
> >the takeoff technique described in the Flight Training Manual for
> >Gliders.
>
> >I recommend getting the glider balanced on the main wheel as soon as
> >possible. *You can see why this is important if you look at what can
> >happen if you keep either the tail wheel or the nose wheel on the
> >ground too long.
>
> >In a tail dragger, if you hold too much back pressure (or the elevator
> >is trimmed too far back) the glider will lift off while the tail is
> >still being =93pushed=94 into the ground by the elevator. *The glider can
> >then lift it=92s main wheel off of the ground, but keep increasing it=92s
> >angle of attack because the excess back pressure keeps the tail wheel
> >on the ground. *The glider can either stall, or more likely, lurch
> >into the air and climb rapidly. * This could pull the tail of the tow
> >plane up, driving it=92s nose into the ground. * Or, as the glider lifts
> >off rapidly, the pilot/student will often over control, causing the
> >glider to slam back down to the ground, possibly starting a pilot
> >induced oscillation.
>
> >With a nose dragger, if you hold too much forward pressure (or the
> >elevator is trimmed too far forward), the glider can reach flying
> >speed, yet still not be flying because the angle of attack is too low
> >to generate sufficient lift. * If the stick is then moved back to lift
> >the nose, the glider can lurch into the air quickly, causing the same
> >problems just described.
>
> >And finally, look what could happen if the glider hits a bump while
> >rolling on the nose or tail wheels, as opposed to what happens if it
> >hits a bump while balanced on the main wheel. * A bump to the tail
> >wheel can damage it, or drive the nose into the ground. *A bump to the
> >nose wheel can cause a rapid increase in angle of attack which, if
> >sufficient speed has been reached, can cause the glider to lurch into
> >the air, or if flying speed has not been reached, the glider can slam
> >onto the tail wheel, damaging it or the rear fuselage. *If you hit a
> >bump while balancing on the main wheel, the force will act very near
> >the center of gravity, and will not cause a change to the pitch or
> >angle of attack.
>
> >So, whether you are flying a tail dragger or a nose dragger, the goal
> >should be to get the glider in to a flying attitude as soon as
> >possible. * To achieve this, during the initial roll on take off, make
> >sure the stick is held well forward in a tail dragger, or well aft in
> >a nose dragger.
>
> >I hope this helps to clear things up.
>
> >Russell Holtz
>
> * Gee, and Charlie had me holding it forward of neutral in the 2-32,
> sort of the opposite of "well aft".
>
> * * * * Alan

Alan

You are comparing Russel's useful generalization and one good
instructors' specific advice. If we could just read a book or ras and
know everything we would not need those annoying flight instructors.

Maybe Charlie was predisposed to baby the fragile tail wheel on a
2-32, or even if your 2-32 had a pneumatic wheel mod maybe he wanted
to encourage babying the 2-32 tail wheel in general. Maybe he felt you
were holding on too much back pressure (even without realizing it,
e.g. causing an unexpected balloon up behind the tow plane) and was
trying to help cure you of that. Or maybe one of several other
reasons. Ask Charlie to explain the difference in his advice to the
generalization in the textbook.

Darryl

[HL Falbaum[_2_]]

"Darryl Ramm" > wrote in message
...
On May 6, 7:45 pm, Nyal Williams > wrote:
> If the tail wheel is on the ground, how can back pressure make the glider
> lift off? The AoA can't be increased; I'd say it lifts off when a
> certain speed is reached with no stick movement at all.
>
> (The real answer to the question in the header is "Thumb and two
> fingers.)
>
> At 23:04 06 May 2009, TonyV wrote:
>
> >Mike the Strike wrote:
>
> > > The correct answer therefore depends on the ship, its hook location,
> > > method of tow and weather conditions.
>
> >Yes, once again, "it depends". I think that Russell's advice is
> >generally good and is what I do on most gliders - except for my LS-6. I
> >used to get the glider off of the tail wheel as soon as possible but
> >found I had much longer than expected ground rolls. About 3 years ago,
> >as an experiment, I set the trim, left the stick neutral and kept the
> >tail wheel on the ground until a gentle back pressure at flying speed
> >caused the glider to lift one foot off of the ground with no hint of
> >ballooning and no stick pressure at all. I've been doing that ever
> >since. YMMV.
>
> >Tony V
>
>

Apparently not if you are Karl Striedieck. See A fine weekend... Not
an option in my motorglider. Right hand on stick. Left hand closes and
locks spoiler, left hand on throttle, left hand changing flap setting,
left hand blocking unintended spoiler open, left hand back to
throttle, left hand scratching head, ...

---

So Michael - the real answer is stop trying to learn to fly by asking
for opinions/voting on ras. You won't know enough yet to judge the
advice, a lot of which will conflict (e.g. depending on type of ship,
pilot skill etc.). If your flight instructor(s) can't answer these
questions and/or do not cover them as a natural part of the flight
training then go find somewhere else to learn to fly. This is not idle
commentary, if the basics are not being covered and/or you don't have
a relationship with your instructor(s) where you can discuss things
then maybe somebody will be scraping parts of you off the ground when
something goes horribly wrong.

And while flying with different instructors is often a good thing as
you get to share different teaching skills, ideas and tips but at an
early stage it can be a problem. If you have instructor blur speak up
and see if you can get with one instructor for the early training.

At an early stage your instructor may well want to ignore a lot of
detail and help you focus on specific relatively simple tasks (simple
only once you pass the uh ha! moment). That may be why they are not
getting into some topics with you. Again talk to them about this. If
that is the case, you might want to talk with them about when these
things will get covered in the training (they hopefully provided you
with a written practical training syllabus) and don't sweat those
details now.

Darryl


Michael:

I'll just add one thing to all this excellent advice. Work to understand how
and why.
Buy a copy of the classic--"Stick and Rudder" by Wolfgang Langewiesche and
read it thouroughly at least once a year.
Discuss what you learn from it with your instructor and have the instructor
point out how that information applies to your situation--
Your Field, your towplane, your glider, as these are important variables
that change the answer.

Good flying to you
Hartley Falbaum

[Jim Beckman[_2_]]

At 02:45 07 May 2009, Nyal Williams wrote:
>
>(The real answer to the question in the header is "Thumb and two
>fingers.)

That's sort of the answer I was going to suggest. Remember all the jokes
about that subject in the movie "Dawn Flight"?

Jim Beckman