Re: CHEAP Los Angeles C-172 Flying Club CHEAP

[Sunho]

On Mar 27, 9:18*am, wrote:
> Keep flying in spite of the economy !
>
> This is a notice to determine if there is interests in a no-frills,
> super-frugal club, based on 1/10 ownership of a classic 1950's VFR
> Cessna 172 in the northern Los Angeles metro area. We are considering
> forming a club around this aircraft, and we want to see what the level
> of interest is.
>
> The big idea is to make it LESS expensive than other clubs or
> expensive airplane fractional ownership schemes. We are shooting for a
> $3995 buy-in which includes club membership entry fee AND a 1/10
> ownership in the aircraft. There would be a low monthly fee, maybe
> $50, that would cover normal annuals, tiedown, and insurance. There
> would hopefully be a zero or very very low ($5) hourly charge. Non-
> routine maintenance, overhaul, upgrades, etc. would be voted on and
> assessed only if/when needed. The older 172's with manual flaps and
> simple basic electronics are pretty low maintenance.
>
> The club would be limited to ten members. Students would be WELCOME,
> the insurance will be set up to allow student pilots to use the
> airplane for lessons! You can save a FORTUNE on training costs this
> way!
>
> Compared to renting a more modern 172 at the local FBO, our basic
> calculations indicate that for a three year period, flying 100 hours a
> year (300 total), you could cut your flying costs in HALF, even if you
> keep your membership. If you sell your membership after three years,
> your cost of putting those 300 hours in your logbooks is ONE THIRD of
> what you would h ave paid as a renter. That includes an engine
> overhaul or replacement somewhere n that three years.
>
> The only "downside" is that this is a basic VFR fun / $100 hamburger /
> keep current airplane. No G-1000 big-screen TV, no autopilot, no
> instrument work. This will be for people to fly inexpensively, not
> watch $100K worth of gadgets and blinking lights. Your $300 used
> handheld GPS will get you to the hamburger just as precisely as the
> big gadgets will. You want gadgets... go spend half a million on aCirrus!
>
> Local pilots please contact me at *victorbravo >at< sbcglobal {dot}}
> net and let me know if this would interest you or if/why it would
> not.

Just curious, how many new-build buyers opt not to have gadgets in the
cockpit?

[[email protected]]

On May 5, 6:20*pm, Sunho > wrote:
> On Mar 27, 9:18*am, wrote:
>
>
>
> > Keep flying in spite of the economy !
>
> > This is a notice to determine if there is interests in a no-frills,
> > super-frugal club, based on 1/10 ownership of a classic 1950's VFR
> > Cessna 172 in the northern Los Angeles metro area. We are considering
> > forming a club around this aircraft, and we want to see what the level
> > of interest is.
>
> > The big idea is to make it LESS expensive than other clubs or
> > expensive airplane fractional ownership schemes. We are shooting for a
> > $3995 buy-in which includes club membership entry fee AND a 1/10
> > ownership in the aircraft. There would be a low monthly fee, maybe
> > $50, that would cover normal annuals, tiedown, and insurance. There
> > would hopefully be a zero or very very low ($5) hourly charge. Non-
> > routine maintenance, overhaul, upgrades, etc. would be voted on and
> > assessed only if/when needed. The older 172's with manual flaps and
> > simple basic electronics are pretty low maintenance.
>
> > The club would be limited to ten members. Students would be WELCOME,
> > the insurance will be set up to allow student pilots to use the
> > airplane for lessons! You can save a FORTUNE on training costs this
> > way!
>
> > Compared to renting a more modern 172 at the local FBO, our basic
> > calculations indicate that for a three year period, flying 100 hours a
> > year (300 total), you could cut your flying costs in HALF, even if you
> > keep your membership. If you sell your membership after three years,
> > your cost of putting those 300 hours in your logbooks is ONE THIRD of
> > what you would h ave paid as a renter. That includes an engine
> > overhaul or replacement somewhere n that three years.
>
> > The only "downside" is that this is a basic VFR fun / $100 hamburger /
> > keep current airplane. No G-1000 big-screen TV, no autopilot, no
> > instrument work. This will be for people to fly inexpensively, not
> > watch $100K worth of gadgets and blinking lights. Your $300 used
> > handheld GPS will get you to the hamburger just as precisely as the
> > big gadgets will. You want gadgets... go spend half a million on aCirrus!
>
> > Local pilots please contact me at *victorbravo >at< sbcglobal {dot}}
> > net and let me know if this would interest you or if/why it would
> > not.
>
> Just curious, how many new-build buyers opt not to have gadgets in the
> cockpit?

I'm guessing not many. But I'll also guess that the main reason is
that if you can $200k for the basics, you might as well pay $240k to
have all the bells and whistles -- you can always ignore them and just
look out the window. I personally would love to have a pretty G1000, I
just can't pay for it.

[Kobra[_10_]]

"Sunho" > wrote in message
...
On Mar 27, 9:18 am, wrote:
> Keep flying in spite of the economy !
>
> This is a notice to determine if there is interests in a no-frills,
> super-frugal club, based on 1/10 ownership of a classic 1950's VFR
> Cessna 172 in the northern Los Angeles metro area. We are considering
> forming a club around this aircraft, and we want to see what the level
> of interest is.
>
> The big idea is to make it LESS expensive than other clubs or
> expensive airplane fractional ownership schemes. We are shooting for a
> $3995 buy-in which includes club membership entry fee AND a 1/10
> ownership in the aircraft. There would be a low monthly fee, maybe
> $50, that would cover normal annuals, tiedown, and insurance. There
> would hopefully be a zero or very very low ($5) hourly charge. Non-
> routine maintenance, overhaul, upgrades, etc. would be voted on and
> assessed only if/when needed. The older 172's with manual flaps and
> simple basic electronics are pretty low maintenance.
>
> The club would be limited to ten members. Students would be WELCOME,
> the insurance will be set up to allow student pilots to use the
> airplane for lessons! You can save a FORTUNE on training costs this
> way!
>
> Compared to renting a more modern 172 at the local FBO, our basic
> calculations indicate that for a three year period, flying 100 hours a
> year (300 total), you could cut your flying costs in HALF, even if you
> keep your membership. If you sell your membership after three years,
> your cost of putting those 300 hours in your logbooks is ONE THIRD of
> what you would h ave paid as a renter. That includes an engine
> overhaul or replacement somewhere n that three years.
>
> The only "downside" is that this is a basic VFR fun / $100 hamburger /
> keep current airplane. No G-1000 big-screen TV, no autopilot, no
> instrument work. This will be for people to fly inexpensively, not
> watch $100K worth of gadgets and blinking lights. Your $300 used
> handheld GPS will get you to the hamburger just as precisely as the
> big gadgets will. You want gadgets... go spend half a million on aCirrus!
>
> Local pilots please contact me at victorbravo >at< sbcglobal {dot}}
> net and let me know if this would interest you or if/why it would
> not.

Let me crush your dreams:

First of all good luck finding 10 consistent reliable trustworthy easy-going
people to buy in to a plane.

How many hours are left on the engine before major OH and how much will it
cost to do that? That's what will determine your hourly engine OH
amortization/reserve. If the engine is at half time (1000 hours) and a
major OH cost about 20,000.00 for engine removal, OH, reinstallation and
shipping, you're looking at 20 bucks an hour for the engine OH.

Fuel is averaging about 3.90 per gallon and I would figure on a fuel burn of
9 GPH. That will cost 35.10 per hour in fuel.

Five dollars will NOT cut it for unforeseen maintenance. You will need to
be closer to 15.

Add 3 dollars per hour for oil change and a dollar per hour for oil
consumption.

Let's see...hmmm...that's 20 + 35.10 + 15 + 3 + 1 = $74.00 per hour wet
variable costs.

Now let's look at the fixed costs:

Now an annual will cost you about 900.00 JUST FOR THE INSPECTION. This will
not include any maintenance required.
There's storage (hangar: 400.00 per month, Tiedown 75.00 per month)
Insurance: 1,200.00 per year (100.00 per month)
Loan payment: 40,000 plane at 7% interest over 10 years = $464.43 per month

Let's see...hmmm...75.00 annual + 75.00 tiedown + 100.00 insurance + 464.43
loan payment = 714.43 per month even if you don't fly a single hour.

Now we didn't even talk about it's eventual and inevitable exterior paint
job. That's 8 to 10 grand and if it is kept outside that will have to be
done in the next 5 or 6 years. That's 112.00 per month paint reserve if
you're so inclined.

The following costs do NOT include the principle part of the loan...only
interest for the first year:

If you own the plane by yourself and fly 100 hours per year it will cost you
1,067.58 per month wet.
With two people flying 100 hours per year it will cost you about 829.69 per
month wet. (nice savings!)
With three people flying 100 hours per year it will cost you about 750.40
per month wet. (not bad savings)
With four people flying 100 hours per year it will cost you about 710.75 per
month wet. (very little savings)
With five people flying 100 hours per year it will cost you about 686.96 per
month wet. (almost not worth it savings)
With six people flying 100 hours per year it will cost you about 671.10 per
month wet. (not worth it at all)

See what's going on here? After the third partner, the cost savings verses
the use of the plane and inconvenience of having him just aint worth the
savings to take him on.

Kobra