Can anyone verify this story about Blackbirds?

[Jaeger]

I remember reading about SR-71(Blackbird) aircraft flying in Swedish
airspace on recon missions to Russia, chased by the Swedish air force.
Apparently the Swedish aircraft never got into air even before the
Blackbird had exited Swedish airspace. The Blackbird pilots even sent
the Swedes Christmas post cards with compliments about their attempts
to get them.

Anyone else know of this story? Is it true?

[Jukka O. Kauppinen]

I suspect the SR-71s have flown intentionally in Swedish airspace. The
Blackbirds did however run a regular route in the international
airspace, at times very close to the Swedish border.

Swedes did intercept SR-71, though. With careful calculated interception
a Swedish fighter did streak into intercept position and got a radar
lock. The SR-71 flights over the Baltic Sea and Gulf of Finland stopped
for several weeks after that with the USAAF trying to find out how the
Swedes could do that.

The story below seems just a fabrication - how the Blackbird pilots or
anyone could even know that the Swedes tried to get them, if they didn't
even get planes up before they'd exited?

Another variation of this story tells, that the Blackbird pilots sent
the Swedes a trophy for being the only people ever to have intercepted
an SR-71. Given the circumstances that is far more believable, since an
interception is known to have happened.

jok

> I remember reading about SR-71(Blackbird) aircraft flying in Swedish
> airspace on recon missions to Russia, chased by the Swedish air force.
> Apparently the Swedish aircraft never got into air even before the
> Blackbird had exited Swedish airspace. The Blackbird pilots even sent
> the Swedes Christmas post cards with compliments about their attempts
> to get them.
>
> Anyone else know of this story? Is it true?

[Kevin Brooks]

"Jukka O. Kauppinen" > wrote in
message ...
>
> I suspect the SR-71s have flown intentionally in Swedish airspace. The
> Blackbirds did however run a regular route in the international
> airspace, at times very close to the Swedish border.
>
> Swedes did intercept SR-71, though. With careful calculated interception
> a Swedish fighter did streak into intercept position and got a radar
> lock. The SR-71 flights over the Baltic Sea and Gulf of Finland stopped
> for several weeks after that with the USAAF trying to find out how the
> Swedes could do that.

First, with an absolute maximum ceiling of about 65K feet, how could a
Draken have acheived a radar lock on a SR-71 flying at its operational
altitude (the ol' "in excess of 85K feet" bit)? Second, the USAAF would have
been hard pressed to investigate a situation that came along twenty-five or
more years after it ceased to exist..:-)

>
> The story below seems just a fabrication - how the Blackbird pilots or
> anyone could even know that the Swedes tried to get them, if they didn't
> even get planes up before they'd exited?
>
> Another variation of this story tells, that the Blackbird pilots sent
> the Swedes a trophy for being the only people ever to have intercepted
> an SR-71. Given the circumstances that is far more believable, since an
> interception is known to have happened.

Cite?

Brooks

>
> jok
>
> > I remember reading about SR-71(Blackbird) aircraft flying in Swedish
> > airspace on recon missions to Russia, chased by the Swedish air force.
> > Apparently the Swedish aircraft never got into air even before the
> > Blackbird had exited Swedish airspace. The Blackbird pilots even sent
> > the Swedes Christmas post cards with compliments about their attempts
> > to get them.
> >
> > Anyone else know of this story? Is it true?

[Harry Andreas]

In article >, "Kevin Brooks"
> wrote:

> "Jukka O. Kauppinen" > wrote in
> message ...
> >
> > I suspect the SR-71s have flown intentionally in Swedish airspace. The
> > Blackbirds did however run a regular route in the international
> > airspace, at times very close to the Swedish border.
> >
> > Swedes did intercept SR-71, though. With careful calculated interception
> > a Swedish fighter did streak into intercept position and got a radar
> > lock. The SR-71 flights over the Baltic Sea and Gulf of Finland stopped
> > for several weeks after that with the USAAF trying to find out how the
> > Swedes could do that.
>
> First, with an absolute maximum ceiling of about 65K feet, how could a
> Draken have acheived a radar lock on a SR-71 flying at its operational
> altitude (the ol' "in excess of 85K feet" bit)?

An altitude difference of 20 000 ft is less than 4 miles.
If the SR was cruising at 100 000 ft that's still only 6.6 miles.
Any radar has more range than that, even looking up.

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

[Kevin Brooks]

"Harry Andreas" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Kevin Brooks"
> > wrote:
>
> > "Jukka O. Kauppinen" > wrote in
> > message ...
> > >
> > > I suspect the SR-71s have flown intentionally in Swedish airspace. The
> > > Blackbirds did however run a regular route in the international
> > > airspace, at times very close to the Swedish border.
> > >
> > > Swedes did intercept SR-71, though. With careful calculated
interception
> > > a Swedish fighter did streak into intercept position and got a radar
> > > lock. The SR-71 flights over the Baltic Sea and Gulf of Finland
stopped
> > > for several weeks after that with the USAAF trying to find out how the
> > > Swedes could do that.
> >
> > First, with an absolute maximum ceiling of about 65K feet, how could a
> > Draken have acheived a radar lock on a SR-71 flying at its operational
> > altitude (the ol' "in excess of 85K feet" bit)?
>
> An altitude difference of 20 000 ft is less than 4 miles.
> If the SR was cruising at 100 000 ft that's still only 6.6 miles.
> Any radar has more range than that, even looking up.

OK, I should have rephrased--how could the Draken have posed an actual
threat to the SR? And, I'd be mightily surprised if said Draken was actually
operating at its tippy-top ceiling capability...

Brooks

>
> --
> Harry Andreas
> Engineering raconteur

[Kyle Boatright]

"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Harry Andreas" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, "Kevin Brooks"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > "Jukka O. Kauppinen" > wrote
in
> > > message ...
> > > >
> > > > I suspect the SR-71s have flown intentionally in Swedish airspace.
The
> > > > Blackbirds did however run a regular route in the international
> > > > airspace, at times very close to the Swedish border.
> > > >
> > > > Swedes did intercept SR-71, though. With careful calculated
> interception
> > > > a Swedish fighter did streak into intercept position and got a radar
> > > > lock. The SR-71 flights over the Baltic Sea and Gulf of Finland
> stopped
> > > > for several weeks after that with the USAAF trying to find out how
the
> > > > Swedes could do that.
> > >
> > > First, with an absolute maximum ceiling of about 65K feet, how could a
> > > Draken have acheived a radar lock on a SR-71 flying at its operational
> > > altitude (the ol' "in excess of 85K feet" bit)?
> >
> > An altitude difference of 20 000 ft is less than 4 miles.
> > If the SR was cruising at 100 000 ft that's still only 6.6 miles.
> > Any radar has more range than that, even looking up.
>
> OK, I should have rephrased--how could the Draken have posed an actual
> threat to the SR? And, I'd be mightily surprised if said Draken was
actually
> operating at its tippy-top ceiling capability...
>
> Brooks
>

I would think a head on-shot after a pop-up intercept would have a
meaningful Pk if the intercept was run perfectly. The problem is getting to
the right point in time and space to take the head-on shot.

KB

[noname]

> OK, I should have rephrased--how could the Draken have posed an actual
> threat to the SR? And, I'd be mightily surprised if said Draken was actually
> operating at its tippy-top ceiling capability...
>
> Brooks

It was a Viggen.

[Kevin Brooks]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Harry Andreas" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > In article >, "Kevin Brooks"
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Jukka O. Kauppinen" >
wrote
> in
> > > > message ...
> > > > >
> > > > > I suspect the SR-71s have flown intentionally in Swedish airspace.
> The
> > > > > Blackbirds did however run a regular route in the international
> > > > > airspace, at times very close to the Swedish border.
> > > > >
> > > > > Swedes did intercept SR-71, though. With careful calculated
> > interception
> > > > > a Swedish fighter did streak into intercept position and got a
radar
> > > > > lock. The SR-71 flights over the Baltic Sea and Gulf of Finland
> > stopped
> > > > > for several weeks after that with the USAAF trying to find out how
> the
> > > > > Swedes could do that.
> > > >
> > > > First, with an absolute maximum ceiling of about 65K feet, how could
a
> > > > Draken have acheived a radar lock on a SR-71 flying at its
operational
> > > > altitude (the ol' "in excess of 85K feet" bit)?
> > >
> > > An altitude difference of 20 000 ft is less than 4 miles.
> > > If the SR was cruising at 100 000 ft that's still only 6.6 miles.
> > > Any radar has more range than that, even looking up.
> >
> > OK, I should have rephrased--how could the Draken have posed an actual
> > threat to the SR? And, I'd be mightily surprised if said Draken was
> actually
> > operating at its tippy-top ceiling capability...
> >
> > Brooks
> >
>
> I would think a head on-shot after a pop-up intercept would have a
> meaningful Pk if the intercept was run perfectly. The problem is getting
to
> the right point in time and space to take the head-on shot.

I'd think head-on the SR would likely present a pretty small RCS (it was
after all known for being rather stealthy for its day)--couple that with its
speed, the interceptor's speed (i.e., one heck of a closure velocity), and
the idea that the Draken would have to be lugging at best a couple of Rb
27/28 (read as "Falcon") AAM's, and I don't see it as very doable. Color me
dubious.

Brooks

>
> KB
>
>

[Smartace11]

>> I would think a head on-shot after a pop-up intercept would have a
>> meaningful Pk if the intercept was run perfectly. The problem is getting
>to
>> the right point in time and space to take the head-on shot.
>
>I'd think head-on the SR would likely present a pretty small RCS (it was
>after all known for being rather stealthy for its day)--couple that with its
>speed, the interceptor's speed (i.e., one heck of a closure velocity), and
>the idea that the Draken would have to be lugging at best a couple of Rb
>27/28 (read as "Falcon") AAM's, and I don't see it as very doable. Color me
>dubious.
>
>Brooks
>

I am not sure about their real stealthiness, at least from the rear hemisphere.
Yeah I know the chances of a shot from that quarter are not the best to say
the least.

Went on a F-4E Functional Check Flight out of Korat once. The FCF involves
among other things, doing a Mach run around 2.0 somewhere between FL400 and
FL500. On this particular flight I found and locked on to a very high speed
tartget target well above us with a huge negative closing range. We were M2+
and probably at FL450 over nothern Thailand headed NE. Stayed locked on long
enough to have been able to get an AIM 7 off though I suspect the PK wasn't the
greatest. The Mach run was interrupted by a #1 engine compressor stall so we
had other things to do besides play with that bogey.

On another occaision we were #2 for the active behind a Blackbird at Kadena.
After he took off and we took the active I locked on to him and again stayed
locked on until he was about 15 miles out.

Both were in friendly airspace so I suspect that whaterver ECM those bogeys had
was turned off, as well. The F-4 radar was very susceptible to gate stealers.

[Typhoon502]

"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message >...
> I'd think head-on the SR would likely present a pretty small RCS (it was
> after all known for being rather stealthy for its day)--couple that with its
> speed, the interceptor's speed (i.e., one heck of a closure velocity), and
> the idea that the Draken would have to be lugging at best a couple of Rb
> 27/28 (read as "Falcon") AAM's, and I don't see it as very doable. Color me
> dubious.

Points for close enough? Hey, no reason for the Habu drivers to not
have a sense of humour about it.

[John S. Shinal]

"Kevin Brooks" wrote:
>I'd think head-on the SR would likely present a pretty small RCS (it was
>after all known for being rather stealthy for its day)--couple that with its
>speed, the interceptor's speed (i.e., one heck of a closure velocity), and
>the idea that the Draken would have to be lugging at best a couple of Rb
>27/28 (read as "Falcon") AAM's, and I don't see it as very doable. Color me
>dubious.

I'm wondering *when* it was, also. The SR-71 had a pretty
significant defensive electronics fit; at some time it was allegedly
the best stuff we could make, and capable of jamming just about
anything.






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[Jukka O. Kauppinen]

>>Swedes did intercept SR-71, though.

> First, with an absolute maximum ceiling of about 65K feet, how could a
> Draken have acheived a radar lock on a SR-71 flying at its operational
> altitude (the ol' "in excess of 85K feet" bit)?

Sweden's Air Force had also other fighter types than just the old, good
Draken. However I have no clue what fighter was used in the actual
interception. I would place my bet on the Saab Viggen. This did happen,
anyway, with the Swedish fighter getting an actual lock and being in
position to shoot the missiles. Anyway, it was a well planned and
perfectly executed intercept coordinated from ground, with Viggen (?)
keeping its radar shut until the perfect opportunity, then lighting up
and locking. Surprise maneuver, in peacetime.

Factual sources I don't have on hand though. I've read of this
somewhere, maybe, I may have been talking about this with Swedish AF
pilots, dunno. There may be written article of this in Swedish aviation
magazines, but I suspect what actually happened is buried and hidden in
the AF archives, with just rumours circulating elsewhere.

>>Another variation of this story tells, that the Blackbird pilots sent
>>the Swedes a trophy for being the only people ever to have intercepted
>>an SR-71. Given the circumstances that is far more believable, since an
>>interception is known to have happened.
>
> Cite?

Mention of this trophy I found when googling for the different
variations of the story.

The one with trophy mentioned was slightly different what I was told or
read earlier, but I think the details of this event have blurred after
it has been told with the details changing, like with the original post
of this thread, which isn't anything like the actual events.

jok

[John]

Jaeger wrote:

> I remember reading about SR-71(Blackbird) aircraft flying in Swedish
> airspace on recon missions to Russia, chased by the Swedish air force.
> Apparently the Swedish aircraft never got into air even before the
> Blackbird had exited Swedish airspace. The Blackbird pilots even sent
> the Swedes Christmas post cards with compliments about their attempts
> to get them.
>
> Anyone else know of this story? Is it true?

Heard several versions of that same story, would not put it passed
the Habu guys, considering other stories

But it would be very unlikely that anyone could intercept a SR-71.
Col Graham's book gives names for several excersises in which
aircraft tried to catch the Blackbird. all fell short.
"Debbie" (near Japan or Okinawa)
" Tomcat chase" (F-14's off the west coast) and
"Tiger bait" (F-15's over Nellis range)
Would have to get the book out to get all the details.

[Vicente Vazquez]

(Jaeger) wrote in message >...
> I remember reading about SR-71(Blackbird) aircraft flying in Swedish
> airspace on recon missions to Russia ...

IIRC what I read on "Black Jets" (Airtime Publishing), though built
for that purpose, the Blackbirds were never sent on recon missions
over russian territory. One of the reasons why the A-12's were built
was the fact that in the late 50's the Agency envisaged that the U2
would soon be vulnerable to russian SAMs, as Gary Powers would later
demonstrate over Russia in 1960 and Rudolph Anderson over Cuba in
1962. Seems like the political sensitiveness caused by the Gary Powers
shootdown made the US keep the Blackbirds out of "russkie" skies.

[robert arndt]

Apparently, SR-71s from Mildenhall cruised up
the Baltic and back at frequent intervals. A couple of Swedish pilots
(probably in Draken's rather than Viggens) decided to have a bit of fun.
So the next time an SR-71 went by, they scrambled with drop-tanks fitted.
One went north to act as the spotter, the other stooged around further
south. When the SR-71 came within radar range of the northern fighter, he
radioed the southern one. That one dropped the external tanks (breaking
peace-time regulations in the process!), turned on full afterburner and
stood the 'plane on its tail. As he reached maximum altitude, he turned on
his radar in targeting mode. He just managed to achieve lock-on before the
SR-71 ECM lit up and totally scrambled his radar picture. The two pilots
then turned for home, where the southern one just managed to land before
running out of fuel. They were apparently subsequently sent a trophy from
the SR-71 detachment, as an award for being the only people ever to have
intercepted an SR-71.

Or so the story goes.

Rob

[Eunometic]

(robert arndt) wrote in message >...
> Apparently, SR-71s from Mildenhall cruised up
> the Baltic and back at frequent intervals. A couple of Swedish pilots
> (probably in Draken's rather than Viggens) decided to have a bit of fun.
> So the next time an SR-71 went by, they scrambled with drop-tanks fitted.
> One went north to act as the spotter, the other stooged around further
> south. When the SR-71 came within radar range of the northern fighter, he
> radioed the southern one. That one dropped the external tanks (breaking
> peace-time regulations in the process!), turned on full afterburner and
> stood the 'plane on its tail. As he reached maximum altitude, he turned on
> his radar in targeting mode. He just managed to achieve lock-on before the
> SR-71 ECM lit up and totally scrambled his radar picture. The two pilots
> then turned for home, where the southern one just managed to land before
> running out of fuel. They were apparently subsequently sent a trophy from
> the SR-71 detachment, as an award for being the only people ever to have
> intercepted an SR-71.
>
> Or so the story goes.
>
> Rob

The version I heard has the SR71 in radio contact and the American
congratulating the Swede.

I suspect it was a Draken. The fighter JA 37 Viggen entered service
in 1979 and the Edit 32 ECCM,FCS, Oerlinkon supergun upgrade in 1993.
The JA 37 also had the more powerfull RM8B smokeless engine in a
lengthened fueselage. Prior to 1979 only the attack version: the AJ
37 was in service (plus special ECM aggressors and recon versions).
Edit 33 allowed the use of AMRAAM though I suspect a good shot with an
Active Skyflash 90 missile (this was called RB.71A in Swedish service)
and was a UK Sparrow derived missile but with an active radar which
might have taken on an SR71. Speed of Skyflash is given as Mach 4+
4520kmh while a Mach 3.6 Blackbird can manage about 3900kmh but I
think it would need to be lauched well within 8km in an almost perfect
tail chase after a zoom climb from Mach 2+ at 60000ft. You would need
several Viggens as an SR71 would have a good chance to pick up a
single Viggen lurking below and ahead waiting for a zoom climb.
Skyflash might be a bit faster: afterall the other Sparrow derived
missile the Italian Aspid manages Mach 5.5.