Re: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam

[WalterM140]

>To put it in perspective, here are 9 ways Bush got favored treatment in the
>service due to his political connections (he
>was then son of a Congressman and grandson of a former Senator):
>
>1) He got into the Guard by pulling strings, avoiding the year and a half
>waiting list;
>http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#got in
>
>2) He took a 2-month vacation in Florida after just 8 weeks, (1 of 3 leaves),
>to
>work on a political campaign;
>http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#firstleave
>
>3) Bush skipped Officer Candidate School and got a special commission as a
>2nd
>Lieutenant, without qualifications;
>http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#2ndLt
>
>4) He was assigned to a safe plane (being phased out of active service), the
>F-102 ;
>http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#f102
>
>5) During flight school, he was flown on a government jet to Washington for a
>date with President Nixon's daughter Tricia ;
>http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#date
>
>6) Bush got an illegal transfer (later overruled) to a base with no work;
>http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#moreleave
>
>7) He simply didn't show up for a YEAR, AWOL with no penalty;
>http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#AWOL
>
>8) George W. skipped all his medical exams after they started drug tests, and
>was removed from flight status;
>http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#drugtest
>
>9) He ended his service 10 months early to go to Harvard Business School;
>http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#discharge
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

>To put it in perspective, here are 9 ways Bush got favored treatment in the
>service due to his political connections (he
>was then son of a Congressman and grandson of a former Senator):
>
>1) He got into the Guard by pulling strings, avoiding the year and a half
>waiting list;
>http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#got in
>
>2) He took a 2-month vacation in Florida after just 8 weeks, (1 of 3 leaves),
>to
>work on a political campaign;
>http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#firstleave
>
>3) Bush skipped Officer Candidate School and got a special commission as a
>2nd
>Lieutenant, without qualifications;
>http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#2ndLt
>
>4) He was assigned to a safe plane (being phased out of active service), the
>F-102 ;
>http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#f102
>
>5) During flight school, he was flown on a government jet to Washington for a
>date with President Nixon's daughter Tricia ;
>http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#date
>
>6) Bush got an illegal transfer (later overruled) to a base with no work;
>http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#moreleave
>
>7) He simply didn't show up for a YEAR, AWOL with no penalty;
>http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#AWOL
>
>8) George W. skipped all his medical exams after they started drug tests, and
>was removed from flight status;
>http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#drugtest
>
>9) He ended his service 10 months early to go to Harvard Business School;
>http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#discharge
>

I got a link not found message.

Someone may have hacked the site. That's what they've done to michaelmoore.com
also.

But good work.

Walt

[Krztalizer]

I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
aircraft"! Were they really?

v/r
Gordon

[B2431]

>From: (Krztalizer)
>Date: 7/8/2004 6:11 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
>aircraft"! Were they really?
>
>v/r
>Gordon

They were perfectly safe.........

Unpowered, sitting in a hangar...etc.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[miket6065]

They were so "safe" that the design was redesigned into the F106 to fix all
the problems.

MikeT

[Ian MacLure]

"miket6065" > wrote in
om:

> They were so "safe" that the design was redesigned into the F106 to
> fix all the problems.

Safety wasn't the problem. Drag was. The F-102 was supposed to be
a supersonic aircraft but wasn't good for much beyond Mach 1.
Area ruling and an increase in power gave us the F-106, easily
capable of Mach 2.

IBM

__________________________________________________ _____________________________
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[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ian MacLure" > wrote in message
...
>
> Safety wasn't the problem. Drag was. The F-102 was supposed to be
> a supersonic aircraft but wasn't good for much beyond Mach 1.
>

That would make it a supersonic aircraft.


>
> Area ruling and an increase in power gave us the F-106, easily
> capable of Mach 2.
>

The F-102A was area ruled.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
>From: Ian MacLure
>Date: 7/8/2004 7:34 PM Pacific Standard Time

(Krztalizer) wrote in
:
>
>> I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
>> aircraft"! Were they really?
>
> Probably no more or less than any high performance jet a/c.
> Flying fighters is inherently a hazardous occupation.
>
> IBM
>
>

A lot more dangerous over enemy territory than over Texas. Believe me. I have
flown over both.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Ron]

>A lot more dangerous over enemy territory than over Texas. Believe me. I
>have
>flown over both.

What is your opinion of someone who gets a pilot slot in the guard, as opposed
to someone who enters active duty infantry or naval forces, in the present day.




Ron
PA-31T Cheyenne II
Maharashtra Weather Modification Program
Pune, India

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
>From: (Ron)
>Date: 7/8/2004 9:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>A lot more dangerous over enemy territory than over Texas. Believe me. I
>>have
>>flown over both.
>
>What is your opinion of someone who gets a pilot slot in the guard, as
>opposed
>to someone who enters active duty infantry or naval forces, in the present
>day.
>
>
>
>
>Ron
>PA-31T Cheyenne II
>Maharashtra Weather Modification Program
>Pune, India
>

I'm too much of a coward for the infantry. I'd rather take my chances in the
flak over Germany.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Cub Driver]

>I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
>aircraft"! Were they really?

As Ed Rasimus has said: "Every time you kick the tires and light the
fire in a single-engine, single-seat Century Series jet, it can kill
you--all by itself without help from an enemy."
www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm

There is a page by Walt BJ (based on his posts on this newsgroup) at
http://www.warbirdforum.com/waltbj.htm


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

[Cub Driver]

>What is your opinion of someone who gets a pilot slot in the guard, as opposed
>to someone who enters active duty infantry or naval forces, in the present day.

Smart man!

(This comes from one who went through infantry basic at Fort Dix.)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

[WalterM140]

>I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
>aircraft"! Were they really?
>

Compared to flying F-105's to Route Package Six, they were very safe when
compared to flying an F-102 over Houston.

Walt

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
>From: (WalterM140)
>Date: 7/9/2004 3:53 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
>>aircraft"! Were they really?
>>
>
>Compared to flying F-105's to Route Package Six, they were very safe when
>compared to flying an F-102 over Houston.
>
>Walt
>

There was no flak over Houston. Well hardly any. ((:->))



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
>From: Cub Driver
>Date: 7/9/2004 2:40 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>>I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
>>aircraft"! Were they really?
>
>As Ed Rasimus has said: "Every time you kick the tires and light the
>fire in a single-engine, single-seat Century Series jet, it can kill
>you--all by itself without help from an enemy."


Yeah right. It's the kicking the tires that will get you every time.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Smartace11]

>Subject: Re: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 7/9/2004 10:13 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
>>From: Cub Driver
>>Date: 7/9/2004 2:40 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>
>>>I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
>>>aircraft"! Were they really?
>>
>>As Ed Rasimus has said: "Every time you kick the tires and light the
>>fire in a single-engine, single-seat Century Series jet, it can kill
>>you--all by itself without help from an enemy."

Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here. I graduated from
college in 1968 in Arizona. I had always wanted to fly jets so from time to
time I applied for the AF Reserves and ANG prior to graduation and once they
found I was physically and mentally qualified to go to flight school, as well
as an engineer, I was informed they all had immediate vacancies. Ultimately I
went through AFROTC and went on to learn how to fly. Probably 5% or so of my
graduating class were ANG or AFR - I ended up taking an F-4. Slots coming down
to graduates included ADC F101s among other non SEA assignments. I had and
have no political pull whatever and I could have just as easily taken an
ANG/AFR slot prior to my college graduation so I don't feel Bush hard to try
very hard to get an F-102.

Even after I finished F-4 in 69 school several of us in my class ended up in
northern Japan instead of SEA including one guy who later became a backseat ace
after getting a SEA tour in 1972..

So please stop reading more into this than there probably was. Don't just
assume that because the guy got an ANG fighter slot and ddn't go to SEA, he
only did so because of his connections. Others were in the same boat through
no choice of their own.

[Ron]

>Subject: Re: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 7/9/2004 1:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>

>>>A lot more dangerous over enemy territory than over Texas. Believe me. I
>>>have
>>>flown over both.
>>
>>What is your opinion of someone who gets a pilot slot in the guard, as
>>opposed
>>to someone who enters active duty infantry or naval forces, in the present
>>day.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Ron
>>PA-31T Cheyenne II
>>Maharashtra Weather Modification Program
>>Pune, India
>>
>
>I'm too much of a coward for the infantry. I'd rather take my chances in the
>flak over Germany.
>
>
>

I was just wondering if you would still have the same disdain for someone who
does it now


Ron
PA-31T Cheyenne II
Maharashtra Weather Modification Program
Pune, India

[ian maclure]

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 10:53:48 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:

>>I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
>>aircraft"! Were they really?
>>
>
> Compared to flying F-105's to Route Package Six, they were very safe when
> compared to flying an F-102 over Houston.

Non-responsive.

Absent the folks shooting at you and the fact that Air Intercept
is usually a regime thats less hazardous inherently than moving
mud, both are equally hazardous.

High powered jets will kill you for any number of seemingly
minor lapses in concentration, judgement, or luck.

And things like "Route Package Six" were part of the problem in
Vietnam. Why fergawdsake, set up predictable in/out routes for
raids. Apparently this is what happened for a long time.
Meant the NVA could set up their SAMs and AAA along those routes
and concentrate their fire.

IBM

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[Krztalizer]

>And things like "Route Package Six" were part of the problem in
> Vietnam. Why fergawdsake, set up predictable in/out routes for
> raids. Apparently this is what happened for a long time.
> Meant the NVA could set up their SAMs and AAA along those routes
> and concentrate their fire.

Mosquito bombers en route to Berlin in 44-45 had set approach routes, well
known to aircrews and flak gunners alike. The three routes were so well
travelled that even the Jerries referred to approaching bogies as "stranger on
(train) Platform 3". Anti-Mosquito units were deliberately stationed on top of
the three arriving "railroad" routes...

Glad to see we learned from that little mistake...

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

Its always better to lose -an- engine, not -the- engine.

[John‰]]

In article >, ian maclure
> wrote:

> On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 05:42:01 -0400, Cub Driver wrote:
>
> >
> >>What is your opinion of someone who gets a pilot slot in the guard, as
> >>opposed
> >>to someone who enters active duty infantry or naval forces, in the present
> >>day.
> >
> > Smart man!
> >
> > (This comes from one who went through infantry basic at Fort Dix.)
>
> Comes down to liking or not liking being perpetually tired,
> cold, hungry, and bug bit.
> Given the choice I think I'd pass on the infantry.
> And besides active duty implies you may be interested in a
> career. The Guard fills an important role for those who aren't
> interested in a career but still want to be a soldier.
>

Being in the Infantry means keeping a pair of wet socks in the
refrigerator so that when you finally get home you can put them on and
be comfortable.

Got the Tee-Shirt, Benning School for Boys, 1968.

John

[WalterM140]

>Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here. I graduated
>from
>college in 1968 in Arizona.

Did you go to Officer Candidates School?

Bush 43 did not.


Walt

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
>From: (WalterM140)
>Date: 7/9/2004 7:10 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here. I graduated
>>from
>>college in 1968 in Arizona.
>
>Did you go to Officer Candidates School?
>
>Bush 43 did not.
>
>
>Walt
>

A guy could work up a perspiration at OCS.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[B2431]

>From: (WalterM140)
>Date: 7/9/2004 9:10 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here. I graduated
>>from
>>college in 1968 in Arizona.
>
>Did you go to Officer Candidates School?
>
>Bush 43 did not.
>
>
>Walt

Probably not since OCS is Army, not Air Force.

Next you will be telling us he never went to UPT either.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[D. Strang]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> A guy could work up a perspiration at OCS.

I've been to OCS, and I've served two tours in combat, once as an enlisted man,
and once as a Lt. I can tell you that OCS is worth the time. When you enter a
ground battle with a bunch of teenagers, you better have taken the drill at OCS
to heart. OCS is a leadership school. Someone who rode around in an airplane
wouldn't know the complexity of herding 40 to 80 men to their certain death to
win a battle.

The one thing I can say about Bush, is that he was never a communist. I can't
say the same about JFKerry. I don't vote for communists, pinko's, or listen much
to people like you who do.

Now go cash your welfare check, while the rest of us are productive in life.

[Cub Driver]

>High powered jets will kill you for any number of seemingly
> minor lapses in concentration, judgement, or luck.

I have huge respect for a 65 hp, high wing, 39 mph stall speed J-3
Piper Cub. Any airplane can kill you, though the Cub is probably the
least effective pilot-killer in the business.

Crikey, only three weeks ago I was tying it down, and the dang thang
put me in the emergency room with seven stitches on the outside of my
scalp and a tied-off vein on the inside. ("Who would have thought the
old man had so much blood in him?")


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
>From: "D. Strang"
>Date: 7/9/2004 10:29 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <Z7LHc.13718$r3.2426@okepread03>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> A guy could work up a perspiration at OCS.
>
>I've been to OCS, and I've served two tours in combat, once as an enlisted
>man,
>and once as a Lt. I can tell you that OCS is worth the time. When you enter
>a
>ground battle with a bunch of teenagers, you better have taken the drill at
>OCS
>to heart. OCS is a leadership school. Someone who rode around in an
>airplane
>wouldn't know the complexity of herding 40 to 80 men to their certain death
>to
>win a battle.
>
>The one thing I can say about Bush, is that he was never a communist. I
>can't
>say the same about JFKerry. I don't vote for communists, pinko's, or listen
>much
>to people like you who do.
>
>Now go cash your welfare check, while the rest of us are productive in life.


WOW ! You were a real war hero. I'm dazzled.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[WalterM140]

>Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here.

Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one problem.

Walt

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, Cub Driver
> writes
>I have huge respect for a 65 hp, high wing, 39 mph stall speed J-3
>Piper Cub. Any airplane can kill you, though the Cub is probably the
>least effective pilot-killer in the business.
>
>Crikey, only three weeks ago I was tying it down, and the dang thang
>put me in the emergency room with seven stitches on the outside of my
>scalp and a tied-off vein on the inside. ("Who would have thought the
>old man had so much blood in him?")

Ouch! Hope it's healing well.

What happened? Did your scalp lose an argument with the prop?

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

[D. Strang]

"WalterM140" > wrote
> >Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here.
>
> Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one problem.

JFKerry skipped out of his last 8 months in the war zone (after receiving three
scratches in the line of duty).

[D. Strang]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> WOW ! You were a real war hero. I'm dazzled.

As you should be.

[WalterM140]

>>>Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here. I graduated
>>>from
>>>college in 1968 in Arizona.
>>
>>Did you go to Officer Candidates School?
>>
>>Bush 43 did not.
>>
>>
>>Walt
>>
>
>A guy could work up a perspiration at OCS.
>

Some of these people want to say Bush got no special treatment, but I don't
know of any one who ever (at least since WWII) who got lieutenant's bars
without going through OCS or some sort of officer qualification program. Bush
went through a six week basic air man's course, and then got a commission.

I think that Gore's father and Bush's father both had the same idea in mind in
the '60's. If their sons were going to have political aspirations, they had to
serve honorably. Gore did go to Viet Nam and as far as I know, completely his
service honorably and completely. He got a cushy job, so be it. But Bush DID
NOT complete his service honorably - his dad made sure that the records
reflected honorable service, but unfortunately for the Bushies, there is this
one pesky document that shows a conclusive 16 month break in Bush's service.

Hopefully, more will be made of this in the coming months. Because unlike Gore
-or- Clinton, Senator Kerry served with distinction.

Walt

[WalterM140]

>The one thing I can say about Bush, is that he was never a communist. I
>can't
>say the same about JFKerry. I don't vote for communists, pinko's, or listen
>much
>to people like you who do.

Kerry is a decorated WIA veteran. He's not a communist. Step back from the
Republican Party Kool-aid.

Walt

[WalterM140]

>Probably not since OCS is Army, not Air Force.
>
>Next you will be telling us he never went to UPT either.
>

Did not/does not the Air Force have some sort of equivalent to OCS? One that
prospective second lieutenants go through?

Walt

[WalterM140]

>> >Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here.
>>
>> Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one
>problem.
>
>JFKerry skipped out of his last 8 months in the war zone (after receiving
>three
>scratches in the line of duty).
>

Senator Kerry is a decorated veteran.

Bush skipped the last two years of his commitment.

Walt

[B2431]

>From: (WalterM140)
>Date: 7/10/2004 9:41 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Probably not since OCS is Army, not Air Force.
>>
>>Next you will be telling us he never went to UPT either.
>>
>
>Did not/does not the Air Force have some sort of equivalent to OCS? One that
>prospective second lieutenants go through?
>
>Walt

Sure, it's OTS. Does it matter how Bush got his butter bars? The fact remains
he did.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
>
> Sure, it's OTS. Does it matter how Bush got his butter bars? The fact
remains
> he did.
>

Yes, and he got them the same way other ANG pilots got them.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"WalterM140" > wrote in message
...
>
> Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one
problem.
>

The record indicates you're wrong. Again.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"WalterM140" > wrote in message
...
>
> Senator Kerry is a decorated veteran.
>

Yes, he earned some of his decorations. Nobody disputes that.


>
> Bush skipped the last two years of his commitment.
>

The record indicates otherwise.

[Ed Rasimus]

On 10 Jul 2004 14:37:31 GMT, (WalterM140) wrote:

>Some of these people want to say Bush got no special treatment, but I don't
>know of any one who ever (at least since WWII) who got lieutenant's bars
>without going through OCS or some sort of officer qualification program. Bush
>went through a six week basic air man's course, and then got a commission.

The "six week basic air man's (sic) course" is OTS. The President did
what every other ANG input to USAF UPT does. He got his commission
through OTS. You might also use the correct terminology while spouting
your propaganda. The commissioning course is Officer Training School,
not Officer Training School which was the term during WW II for Army
"90 day wonders".

And, you might look into "direct commissioning" and expand your
knowledge base. While it doesn't apply to line officers, the special
components such as Medical Corps, JAG, BEE, etc. can receive direct
commissions. Ever wonder why you never met an active duty military
medical doctor in the grade of Lt?
>
>I think that Gore's father and Bush's father both had the same idea in mind in
>the '60's. If their sons were going to have political aspirations, they had to
>serve honorably. Gore did go to Viet Nam and as far as I know, completely his
>service honorably and completely.

Ah, the ol' "as far as I know" escape clause. Well, after today, you
can know--Gore served 151 days of a 360 day "combat tour". He has used
the statement that "I went because if I didn't, someone else would
have had to serve in my place." A noble sentiment, but the fact is
that someone else did have to serve to complete his curtailed tour.

One might also note the tour length for John Kerry. Do we see a trend
among political candidates to "fill the square" then leave?

> He got a cushy job, so be it. But Bush DID
>NOT complete his service honorably - his dad made sure that the records
>reflected honorable service, but unfortunately for the Bushies, there is this
>one pesky document that shows a conclusive 16 month break in Bush's service.

Repeat, repeat, repeat and eventually the "Big Lie" is accepted as
truth. After 4 and a half years of a six year commitment, the
President took a temporary duty attachment to Alabama and then
accepted an "early out" as did many excess members of the active and
reserve forces at the end of the Vietnam War. You continue to assert
"dad made sure" but GHWB would hardly have the clout in '73 to
influence record falsification.
>
>Hopefully, more will be made of this in the coming months. Because unlike Gore
>-or- Clinton, Senator Kerry served with distinction.

Must be a typo there? Watch through the summer as more and more
Vietnam era vets join the 124 Swift boat commanders who have already
come forward to offer comment from a first-person perspective on
Senator Kerry's self-service.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[WalterM140]

>> Sure, it's OTS. Does it matter how Bush got his butter bars? The fact
>remains
>> he did.
>>
>
>Yes, and he got them the same way other ANG pilots got them.

ANG pilots were direct commissioned? All of them?



Walt

[Ed Rasimus]

On 10 Jul 2004 00:27:24 GMT, "ian maclure" > wrote:

>On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 10:53:48 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:
>
>>>I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
>>>aircraft"! Were they really?
>>>
>>
>> Compared to flying F-105's to Route Package Six, they were very safe when
>> compared to flying an F-102 over Houston.

Nice of Walt to provide us a comment about driving 105's to RP VI.
But, flying Deuces day or night, in any kind of weather, mostly out
over the Gulf in a cockpit you could barely see out of and with an
under-powered J-57 doing the pushing was not a piece of cake.
>
> Non-responsive.
>
> Absent the folks shooting at you and the fact that Air Intercept
> is usually a regime thats less hazardous inherently than moving
> mud, both are equally hazardous.
>
> High powered jets will kill you for any number of seemingly
> minor lapses in concentration, judgement, or luck.
>
> And things like "Route Package Six" were part of the problem in
> Vietnam. Why fergawdsake, set up predictable in/out routes for
> raids. Apparently this is what happened for a long time.
> Meant the NVA could set up their SAMs and AAA along those routes
> and concentrate their fire.

Willy Sutton was asked why he robbed banks. "That's where the money
is" was his answer. Why did we us the routes we did? Because they led
to the targets. NVN is a small country. The targets of meaning are
clustered in a smaller area of flat land and coastal plains. If you
start from A and go to B, there are only so many ways to get there. In
the days before GPS, visual nav means finding landmarks like Yen Bai,
the "dog pecker", Thud Ridge, Phantom Ridge and the "porkchop" to use
as pilotage checkpoints.

There were a lot of variations within the theme. We could get to Hanoi
from Thud Ridge, crossing from Laos and back out via Laos; or from
Laos and out to the Gulf; or from the Gulf and back out feet wet; or
from the Gulf and out via Laos. But, eventually you have to get over
the target and that's where the defenses are.


>
> IBM
>
>__________________________________________________ _____________________________
>Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
> <><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>
>

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Ron]

>
>One might also note the tour length for John Kerry. Do we see a trend
>among political candidates to "fill the square" then leave?
>

Apparently there was a lot of that in Vietnam too. Just because someone went,
does not mean it was out of a nobel desire, many went for career progression
purposes. While Kerry was probably trying to emulate John Kennedy, others went
to Nam not for future political careers but to further their military career.

Heck Bush could have been sent to Vietnam (he did volunteer but was considered
too low time), and if he could have flown 50 missions and the Democrats would
be criticising him for not having flown 100, and that he would have not done so
because of his father and political influence.

Ron
PA-31T Cheyenne II
Maharashtra Weather Modification Program
Pune, India

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"WalterM140" > wrote in message
...
>
> ANG pilots were direct commissioned?
>

No.


>
> All of them?
>

None of them.

[B2431]

>From: Ed Rasimus

>
>On 10 Jul 2004 14:37:31 GMT, (WalterM140) wrote:
>
>>Some of these people want to say Bush got no special treatment, but I don't
>>know of any one who ever (at least since WWII) who got lieutenant's bars
>>without going through OCS or some sort of officer qualification program.
>Bush
>>went through a six week basic air man's course, and then got a commission.
>
>The "six week basic air man's (sic) course" is OTS. The President did
>what every other ANG input to USAF UPT does. He got his commission
>through OTS. You might also use the correct terminology while spouting
>your propaganda. The commissioning course is Officer Training School,
>not Officer Training School which was the term during WW II for Army
>"90 day wonders".
>
Um, Ed? Minor typo there. I believe the second Officer Training School was
supposed to be Officer Candidate School.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: (WalterM140)
>Date: 7/10/2004 11:04 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>> Sure, it's OTS. Does it matter how Bush got his butter bars? The fact
>>remains
>>> he did.
>>>
>>
>>Yes, and he got them the same way other ANG pilots got them.
>
>ANG pilots were direct commissioned? All of them?
>
>
>
>Walt

He went through OTS.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Ed Rasimus]

On 10 Jul 2004 16:30:15 GMT, (B2431) wrote:

>>From: Ed Rasimus
>
>>
>>On 10 Jul 2004 14:37:31 GMT, (WalterM140) wrote:
>>
>>>Some of these people want to say Bush got no special treatment, but I don't
>>>know of any one who ever (at least since WWII) who got lieutenant's bars
>>>without going through OCS or some sort of officer qualification program.
>>Bush
>>>went through a six week basic air man's course, and then got a commission.
>>
>>The "six week basic air man's (sic) course" is OTS. The President did
>>what every other ANG input to USAF UPT does. He got his commission
>>through OTS. You might also use the correct terminology while spouting
>>your propaganda. The commissioning course is Officer Training School,
>>not Officer Training School which was the term during WW II for Army
>>"90 day wonders".
>>
> Um, Ed? Minor typo there. I believe the second Officer Training School was
>supposed to be Officer Candidate School.
>
>Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

Sometimes I get caught up in the moment. OCS is Officer Candidate
School.
Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[B2431]

>From: (WalterM140)
>Date: 7/10/2004 9:45 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>> >Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here.
>>>
>>> Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one
>>problem.
>>
>>JFKerry skipped out of his last 8 months in the war zone (after receiving
>>three
>>scratches in the line of duty).
>>
>
>Senator Kerry is a decorated veteran.
>
>Bush skipped the last two years of his commitment.
>
>Walt

Joseph "If I say it often enough it must be true" Goebbels, is that you?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: (WalterM140)
>Date: 7/10/2004 9:38 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>The one thing I can say about Bush, is that he was never a communist. I
>>can't
>>say the same about JFKerry. I don't vote for communists, pinko's, or listen
>>much
>>to people like you who do.
>
>Kerry is a decorated WIA veteran. He's not a communist. Step back from the
>Republican Party Kool-aid.
>
>Walt

And the photograph of him with the Viet Cong flag DURING the war means what?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
>From: (WalterM140)
>Date: 7/10/2004 7:38 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>The one thing I can say about Bush, is that he was never a communist. I
>>can't
>>say the same about JFKerry. I don't vote for communists, pinko's, or listen
>>much
>>to people like you who do.
>
>Kerry is a decorated WIA veteran. He's not a communist. Step back from the
>Republican Party Kool-aid.
>
>Walt
>


It's just neocon bitterness from a president and vice president who ever went
to war when they damn well should have.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
>From: "D. Strang"
>Date: 7/10/2004 5:52 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <JDRHc.16699$r3.16681@okepread03>
>
>"WalterM140" > wrote
>> >Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here.
>>
>> Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one
>problem.
>
>JFKerry skipped out of his last 8 months in the war zone (after receiving
>three
>scratches in the line of duty).


More neocon bitterness.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[BUFDRVR]

Dan wrote:

>He went through OTS

Actually the ANG calls it something different...at least they did in 1994 when
I went through UPT with 4 Guardsmen. Little did they know that they were
recieving special treatment. Please don't engage "Walt", he doesn't have a clue
about the military or aviation and as such is not worth your time. IMHO, "Walt"
is the worst troll I've seen here *ever*. At least Venik and the rest of the
"Serb loonies" were discussing aviation related matters....fantasy aviation,
but aviation none-the-less.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[George Shirley]

Ron wrote:
>>One might also note the tour length for John Kerry. Do we see a trend
>>among political candidates to "fill the square" then leave?
>>
>
>
> Apparently there was a lot of that in Vietnam too. Just because someone went,
> does not mean it was out of a nobel desire, many went for career progression
> purposes. While Kerry was probably trying to emulate John Kennedy, others went
> to Nam not for future political careers but to further their military career.
>
> Heck Bush could have been sent to Vietnam (he did volunteer but was considered
> too low time), and if he could have flown 50 missions and the Democrats would
> be criticising him for not having flown 100, and that he would have not done so
> because of his father and political influence.
>
> Ron
> PA-31T Cheyenne II
> Maharashtra Weather Modification Program
> Pune, India
>
Most grunts referred to officers "advancing their careers" by serving a
tour or part of a tour as "getting their ticket punched." Had to get a
least some combat time for advancement. Many officers were there because
that was the only war we had at the time and war means promotions,
officer or enlisted lifer.

George

[Ed Rasimus]

On 10 Jul 2004 17:04:36 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

>Dan wrote:
>
>>He went through OTS
>
>Actually the ANG calls it something different...at least they did in 1994 when
>I went through UPT with 4 Guardsmen. Little did they know that they were
>recieving special treatment. Please don't engage "Walt", he doesn't have a clue
>about the military or aviation and as such is not worth your time. IMHO, "Walt"
>is the worst troll I've seen here *ever*. At least Venik and the rest of the
>"Serb loonies" were discussing aviation related matters....fantasy aviation,
>but aviation none-the-less.
>
>
>BUFDRVR

I was OPR at ATC-Hq from 1970-72 for "undergraduate rated assignments"
in ATC-Personnel. My office was responsible for all input to flying
training programs (UPT, UNT, UPT-H) and all graduate assignments into
the operational training pipeline. We also did the CONUS survival
school input (global at Fairchild, water at Homestead and the
"special" courses.)

We handled input from AFA, AFROTC, OTS (whether ANG, AFRES or
active-duty). That give me a bit of insight into the personnel
sequencing of pilot input during the period and the manning situation
during the drawdown period from SEA that has been in discussion.

As for feeding the trolls, I learned a long time ago that the value of
Usenet isn't in changing the mind of the trolls, but of providing
input and fact to the readers of the threads. No one is going to
communicate intelligently with Walt who simply regurgitates what he
gets from Terry McAuliffe and doesn't acknowledge being found wrong
regardless of how many people provide refutation. The statements of
fact are for the consideration of the lurkers who might otherwise find
their ideas forever corrupted with simplistic propaganda.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> It's just neocon bitterness from a president and vice president who ever
went
> to war when they damn well should have.
>

No American should have gone to that war.

[D. Strang]

"WalterM140" > wrote
>
> Because unlike Gore
> -or- Clinton, Senator Kerry served with distinction.

For 3 months.

[Ed Rasimus]

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:06:51 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> It's just neocon bitterness from a president and vice president who ever
>went
>> to war when they damn well should have.
>>
>
>No American should have gone to that war.
>

This just in. Breaking news. John Edwards didn't serve in Vietnam.
Where was he?

And, just now, I noticed the thread title. "Fighter Jets..."? The
airplanes are jet fighters. Or, simply just fighters. Or jets.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[D. Strang]

"WalterM140" > wrote
> >Probably not since OCS is Army, not Air Force.
> >
> >Next you will be telling us he never went to UPT either.
> >
>
> Did not/does not the Air Force have some sort of equivalent to OCS? One that
> prospective second lieutenants go through?

The closest thing would be OTS Officer Training School, but you had to have a
college degree to qualify for entry. The Army built their own officers by selecting
from the enlisted ranks. When I finished OCS I had only half of my college completed
(most from night school).
..
If we wanted to go career, we were told to have a degree before eligible for Captain.
No degree, hit the road, you were RIF'd

[D. Strang]

"WalterM140" > wrote
>
> Senator Kerry is a decorated veteran.

He's also an admitted war criminal (before Congress in testimony) who
says he murdered innocent civilians, and unarmed soldiers.

[Jack]

ArtKramr wrote:

> It's just neocon bitterness from a president and vice president who ever went
> to war when they damn well should have.

Your value (substantial) to the group rests primarily on your personal
experiences of military aviation in the WW2 era. Don't dilute that by OT
posts regarding your personal prejudices. We've all got 'em, and they
all stink.

--
Jack

"Cave ab homine unius libri"

[Jack]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> No American should have gone to that war.

Wrong! No American should have been drafted to serve in SEA. The
professionals, with the proper leadership (read C in C), would have
produced quite a different outcome in far less time.

But then history may not agree with either of our claims.


--
Jack

"Cave ab homine unius libri"

[D. Strang]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote
> "ArtKramr" > wrote
> >
> > It's just neocon bitterness from a president and vice president who ever
> > went to war when they damn well should have.
>
> No American should have gone to that war.

I would disagree. While I agree the war was a failure, because the mission
was too broad: "Stop Communism." If the mission was to re-unify the country,
then we should never have cancelled the elections. The country was not a
threat to anyone, even as a Soviet client. Once we went defensive, the war
was over. The Vietnamese found out rather quickly that the Soviets were
worthless, and their relationship didn't last long after the war was over.

[Scott Peterson]

Ed Rasimus > wrote:

>Ever wonder why you never met an active duty military
>medical doctor in the grade of Lt?

Met lots of them......in the Navy.

Scott Peterson

--
I'm out of my mind, but please
wait for the tone and feel free
to leave a message...

145/586

[Ed Rasimus]

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:46:36 -0700, Scott Peterson
> wrote:

>Ed Rasimus > wrote:
>
>>Ever wonder why you never met an active duty military
>>medical doctor in the grade of Lt?
>
>Met lots of them......in the Navy.
>
> Scott Peterson

Cute. Sort of like me calling transportation and identifying myself as
"Captain" on a USN installation. I suppose clear communication might
require identifying as O-1, 2, or 3. I recall standing in line
watching Academy grads (any of the three trade schools) sorting out
their dates of rank prior to getting into a vehicle. Gotta follow that
protocol thing.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Bill Shatzer]

Ed Rasimus ) writes:

-snip-

> Ah, the ol' "as far as I know" escape clause. Well, after today, you
> can know--Gore served 151 days of a 360 day "combat tour". He has used
> the statement that "I went because if I didn't, someone else would
> have had to serve in my place." A noble sentiment, but the fact is
> that someone else did have to serve to complete his curtailed tour.

Well, not by much. Gore's enlistment was up in August of
1971 and they sent him home and discharged him at the end
of May. Unless he re-enlisted, there was no way he was going
to complete a one-year tour. His "early out" cut two months,
not seven, off of his tour.

'Sides, if I recall correctly, the draw-down (and "Vietnamization")
was well underway by that time and early releases were rather
common. There's every reason to assume that no one had to
complete the remaining two months - likely his position simply
wasn't filled.

--


"Cave ab homine unius libri"

[Bill Shatzer]

Ed Rasimus ) writes:

> This just in. Breaking news. John Edwards didn't serve in Vietnam.
> Where was he?

In high school.

--


"Cave ab homine unius libri"

[OXMORON1]

Walt asked in amazement:
>ANG pilots were direct commissioned? All of them?
>

Those getting commissions with out prior service could get a direct commission
without a formal training program.
When the Aviation Cadet Program was still in existence, a lot of ANG pilot and
nav trainees went through the program.
All it took to get a comission in the Guard during the mid 60's was 60 college
semester hours and meeting a comissioning panel, sometimes basic training was
not even required.
Basic training became a requirement about 1967. By then most states also put
their people through some kind of OCS program.
It helped if Dad was a Senator or ANG General, but it was OK if Dad was an E-7
Technician or Mom was a secretary at Group HQ. But it was not manditory, a
sharp troop with a good record and test taking capability had a good chance.

Rick Clark

[D. Strang]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote
> Scott Peterson > wrote:
> >Ed Rasimus > wrote:
> >
> >>Ever wonder why you never met an active duty military
> >>medical doctor in the grade of Lt?
> >
> >Met lots of them......in the Navy.
>
> Cute. Sort of like me calling transportation and identifying myself as
> "Captain" on a USN installation. I suppose clear communication might
> require identifying as O-1, 2, or 3. I recall standing in line
> watching Academy grads (any of the three trade schools) sorting out
> their dates of rank prior to getting into a vehicle. Gotta follow that
> protocol thing.

I remember queuing up for a C-141 ride to Panama. This LtCol came
out and told us that the Officers would get on first so they could pick the
best seats, and the enlisted would get on second. I remember our First-Sgt
bark out "Wrong!" You almost can visualize the LtCol swaying backwards
and the Sgt said "Protocol has the lowest rank getting on first into any
vehicle." Without skipping a beat the LtCol barked out "Officers
first, enlisted second, and First-Sgt's last."

[Brett]

"D. Strang" > wrote:
> "Ed Rasimus" > wrote
> > Scott Peterson > wrote:
> > >Ed Rasimus > wrote:
> > >
> > >>Ever wonder why you never met an active duty military
> > >>medical doctor in the grade of Lt?
> > >
> > >Met lots of them......in the Navy.
> >
> > Cute. Sort of like me calling transportation and identifying myself as
> > "Captain" on a USN installation. I suppose clear communication might
> > require identifying as O-1, 2, or 3. I recall standing in line
> > watching Academy grads (any of the three trade schools) sorting out
> > their dates of rank prior to getting into a vehicle. Gotta follow that
> > protocol thing.
>
> I remember queuing up for a C-141 ride to Panama. This LtCol came
> out and told us that the Officers would get on first so they could pick
the
> best seats,

There are no "best seats" in a C-141 (or is/was there a VIP pallet qualified
for use on the aircraft).

[D. Strang]

"Brett" > wrote
> "D. Strang" > wrote:
> > "Ed Rasimus" > wrote
> > > Scott Peterson > wrote:
> > > >Ed Rasimus > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>Ever wonder why you never met an active duty military
> > > >>medical doctor in the grade of Lt?
> > > >
> > > >Met lots of them......in the Navy.
> > >
> > > Cute. Sort of like me calling transportation and identifying myself as
> > > "Captain" on a USN installation. I suppose clear communication might
> > > require identifying as O-1, 2, or 3. I recall standing in line
> > > watching Academy grads (any of the three trade schools) sorting out
> > > their dates of rank prior to getting into a vehicle. Gotta follow that
> > > protocol thing.
> >
> > I remember queuing up for a C-141 ride to Panama. This LtCol came
> > out and told us that the Officers would get on first so they could pick
> the
> > best seats,
>
> There are no "best seats" in a C-141 (or is/was there a VIP pallet qualified
> for use on the aircraft).

I'm pretty much with you on that! It seemed the officers always wanted the
six seats on the last row at the back of the plane (leg room). I really didn't care
for a seat, as I would straggle back to the cargo and lay on top of a pallet for
a nap. Some loadmasters didn't like it, but most didn't give you a hard time.

[Mike Marron]

>Ed Rasimus > wrote:

>And, just now, I noticed the thread title. "Fighter Jets..."? The
>airplanes are jet fighters. Or, simply just fighters. Or jets.

That was always a pet peeve of mine as well (nobody ever
says "Fighter Props.")

Another one is "motor" instead of "engine."

[Ed Rasimus]

On 10 Jul 2004 23:22:54 GMT, (Bill Shatzer)
wrote:

>Ed Rasimus ) writes:
>
>-snip-
>
>> Ah, the ol' "as far as I know" escape clause. Well, after today, you
>> can know--Gore served 151 days of a 360 day "combat tour". He has used
>> the statement that "I went because if I didn't, someone else would
>> have had to serve in my place." A noble sentiment, but the fact is
>> that someone else did have to serve to complete his curtailed tour.
>
>Well, not by much. Gore's enlistment was up in August of
>1971 and they sent him home and discharged him at the end
>of May. Unless he re-enlisted, there was no way he was going
>to complete a one-year tour. His "early out" cut two months,
>not seven, off of his tour.
>
>'Sides, if I recall correctly, the draw-down (and "Vietnamization")
>was well underway by that time and early releases were rather
>common. There's every reason to assume that no one had to
>complete the remaining two months - likely his position simply
>wasn't filled.

Sorry, Bill, but that simply isn't so. While "early outs" were
becoming available for a few specialties as early as '71, the policy
didn't apply to overseas tours which were strictly controlled.

The only exception would be unit relocations, but not individuals.
When the 469th TFS shut down at the end of FY '72, there were no early
outs or early rotations back to CONUS. My second tour went from June
of '72 to July of '73 with no availability of curtailment.

And, you really might want to look up the duration of Mr. Gore's
overseas assignment.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[B2431]

>From: "D. Strang"
>Date: 7/10/2004 6:59 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <rp%Hc.21595$r3.15356@okepread03>
>
>"Brett" > wrote
>> "D. Strang" > wrote:
>> > "Ed Rasimus" > wrote
>> > > Scott Peterson > wrote:
>> > > >Ed Rasimus > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >>Ever wonder why you never met an active duty military
>> > > >>medical doctor in the grade of Lt?
>> > > >
>> > > >Met lots of them......in the Navy.
>> > >
>> > > Cute. Sort of like me calling transportation and identifying myself as
>> > > "Captain" on a USN installation. I suppose clear communication might
>> > > require identifying as O-1, 2, or 3. I recall standing in line
>> > > watching Academy grads (any of the three trade schools) sorting out
>> > > their dates of rank prior to getting into a vehicle. Gotta follow that
>> > > protocol thing.
>> >
>> > I remember queuing up for a C-141 ride to Panama. This LtCol came
>> > out and told us that the Officers would get on first so they could pick
>> the
>> > best seats,
>>
>> There are no "best seats" in a C-141 (or is/was there a VIP pallet
>qualified
>> for use on the aircraft).
>
>I'm pretty much with you on that! It seemed the officers always wanted the
>six seats on the last row at the back of the plane (leg room). I really
>didn't care
>for a seat, as I would straggle back to the cargo and lay on top of a pallet
>for
>a nap. Some loadmasters didn't like it, but most didn't give you a hard time.

If the 141 or 130 had the side troop seats I'd wait until enough people went to
go find places to lie down or stretch out. I'd push the seat belts back and the
seats would make rather comfortable cots.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Jim Thomas]

George Shirley > wrote in message news:
> Most grunts referred to officers "advancing their careers" by serving a
> tour or part of a tour as "getting their ticket punched." Had to get a
> least some combat time for advancement. Many officers were there because
> that was the only war we had at the time and war means promotions,
> officer or enlisted lifer.
>
And why is this a bad thing? I'd venture to say that most of the
officers who volunteered to serve in SEA did so, not to save the USA
from the Communist hordes, but because it was, indeed, "the only war
we had"; going to war, if required, was what we all signed to do; and
yes, anyone who expected to make a career as a warrior needed to prove
that he could be one. If this is "ticket punching", then I'm guilty.

Jim Thomas

[George Shirley]

Jim Thomas wrote:
> George Shirley > wrote in message news:
>
>>Most grunts referred to officers "advancing their careers" by serving a
>>tour or part of a tour as "getting their ticket punched." Had to get a
>>least some combat time for advancement. Many officers were there because
>>that was the only war we had at the time and war means promotions,
>>officer or enlisted lifer.
>>
>
> And why is this a bad thing? I'd venture to say that most of the
> officers who volunteered to serve in SEA did so, not to save the USA
> from the Communist hordes, but because it was, indeed, "the only war
> we had"; going to war, if required, was what we all signed to do; and
> yes, anyone who expected to make a career as a warrior needed to prove
> that he could be one. If this is "ticket punching", then I'm guilty.
>
> Jim Thomas

I probably should have paragraphed between the ticket punchers and the
officer volunteers Jim. I had no problem with the majority of them, just
the ones who showed up, stayed the minimum time in a safe area and "got
their ticket punched."

A lot of my friends volunteered to go because that was their profession
and they wanted to be where the action was. There were a great many very
good officers and senior NCO's over there for the "only war we had." For
those folks it wasn't ticket punching, it was a love of the profession
of arms and the career they chose. If you were one of them good for you.

George

[BUFDRVR]

Ed Rasimus wrote:

>The statements of
>fact are for the consideration of the lurkers who might otherwise find
>their ideas forever corrupted with simplistic propaganda.

I understand this Ed, but its really killing this newsgroup.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

Ed Rasimus wrote:

>Cute. Sort of like me calling transportation and identifying myself as
>"Captain" on a USN installation.

I took full advantage of that on my one month tour on the USS Theodore
Roosevelt. Unbelievable the attention and service you get when you call up and
identify yourself as "Captain X from the MAAP cell" ;)


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Regnirps]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>It's just neocon bitterness from a president and vice president who ever went
>to war when they damn well should have.

You know, I didn't either. Mayby that's why I can't stand Thurston Howell the
Third and his new Gilligan. Jeeze, he even has a wife who outdoes "Lovey". I'm
not crazy about Bush, and I can understand someone hating him. I CAN'T
understand hating Bush and liking Kerry.

-- Charlie Springer

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jack" > wrote in message
...
>
> Wrong! No American should have been drafted to serve in SEA. The
> professionals, with the proper leadership (read C in C), would have
> produced quite a different outcome in far less time.
>

No, I'm not wrong. No American should have gone to that war. The US
shouldn't have assisted France in reclaiming it's colony after WWII. After
four years of German occupation the French should have learned something
about oppression.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"D. Strang" > wrote in message
news:f4%Hc.21445$r3.17912@okepread03...
>
> I remember queuing up for a C-141 ride to Panama. This LtCol came
> out and told us that the Officers would get on first so they could pick
the
> best seats, and the enlisted would get on second.
>

Getting the best seats would require them to displace the flight crew. The
C-141 was a great airplane, but a good ride it wasn't.

[Ian MacLure]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in
nk.net:

> "Ian MacLure" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Safety wasn't the problem. Drag was. The F-102 was supposed to be
>> a supersonic aircraft but wasn't good for much beyond Mach 1.
>>
>
> That would make it a supersonic aircraft.

Yes strictly speaking I suppose it would however just barely.
Mach 1.3 or so?

>> Area ruling and an increase in power gave us the F-106, easily
>> capable of Mach 2.
>>
>
> The F-102A was area ruled.

Seems I had the development history confabulated with the
operational versions. Couldn't find the reference that talked
the development issues which (IIRC) included area ruling to
deal with unexpectedly high drag

IBM

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[Bill Shatzer]

Ed Rasimus ) writes:

-snip-

> Sorry, Bill, but that simply isn't so. While "early outs" were
> becoming available for a few specialties as early as '71,

Well, certainly much earlier than that. Heck -I- got an "early out"
in the summer of '67 which cut almost three full months of my
enlistment.

> the policy
> didn't apply to overseas tours which were strictly controlled.

I seem to recall a couple members of my unit who received "early
outs" which not only cut their enlistment terms but also were
granted in advance of their scheduled DROS cutting a month or
so off their scheduled RVN tours. But, it was a long time ago,
perhaps I misremember.

> The only exception would be unit relocations, but not individuals.
> When the 469th TFS shut down at the end of FY '72, there were no early
> outs or early rotations back to CONUS. My second tour went from June
> of '72 to July of '73 with no availability of curtailment.

Perhaps the Air Force policy on such things was different than
that of the US Army?

> And, you really might want to look up the duration of Mr. Gore's
> overseas assignment.

Everything I've seen sez it was early January, '71 through late
May, '71 with a scheduled discharge date of August 5, '71.

You have information to the contrary?

--


"Cave ab homine unius libri"

[Ian MacLure]

(ArtKramr) wrote in
:

>
> A lot more dangerous over enemy territory than over Texas. Believe
> me. I have flown over both.

Of course, but (and as a B26 crew member you ought to appreciate
this) flying high performance aircraft carries risks in and of
itself. Certainly higher risk than flying a typewriter in a
rear area for 90 days.

IBM

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[Bill Shatzer]

Jim Thomas ) writes:
> George Shirley > wrote in message news:
>> Most grunts referred to officers "advancing their careers" by serving a
>> tour or part of a tour as "getting their ticket punched." Had to get a
>> least some combat time for advancement. Many officers were there because
>> that was the only war we had at the time and war means promotions,
>> officer or enlisted lifer.

> And why is this a bad thing?

'Cause it played havoc with unit morale and combat effectiveness.

To provide a maximum number of "ticket punches", most officers
spent only six months or less with the combat battlions - the
rest of their tours were spent as laundry and morale office at
some rear echelon headquarters unit.

Just about the time an officer was really learning to get good at
his job, he'd be rotated out and a new inexperienced "ticket puncher"
would be assigned in his place. To repeat the learning curve.

> I'd venture to say that most of the
> officers who volunteered to serve in SEA did so, not to save the USA
> from the Communist hordes, but because it was, indeed, "the only war
> we had"; going to war, if required, was what we all signed to do; and
> yes, anyone who expected to make a career as a warrior needed to prove
> that he could be one. If this is "ticket punching", then I'm guilty.

I don't denigrate the "ticket punchers" - especially the captains and
looies. Their motives were generally honorable and their intentions
good.

But the system was dumb and undoubtably resulted in some good
people getting killed who didn't have to be.

And that's a heavy price to pay for the sake of increasing the number
of tickets punched.

--


"Cave ab homine unius libri"

[Jack]

Hey, I DEROS'd 10 days early: maybe I should run for President.


--
Jack

"Cave ab homine unius libri"

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"ian maclure" > wrote in message >...
> On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 10:53:48 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:
>
> >>I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
> >>aircraft"! Were they really?
> >>
> >
> > Compared to flying F-105's to Route Package Six, they were very safe when
> > compared to flying an F-102 over Houston.
>
> Non-responsive.
>
> Absent the folks shooting at you and the fact that Air Intercept
> is usually a regime thats less hazardous inherently than moving
> mud, both are equally hazardous.

IOW, if you don't consider the factors that make one more hazardous,
they are equally hazaradous? Or are you just saying that any risk
differential was largely independent of the type of aircraft being
flown?

One should probably also factor in quality of maitenance domestically
vs in theater.

Didn't the 102 have the downward firing ejection seat that
made low-level ejections, er, problematic?

--

FF

[Ian MacLure]

(Krztalizer) wrote in
:

>>And things like "Route Package Six" were part of the problem in
>> Vietnam. Why fergawdsake, set up predictable in/out routes for
>> raids. Apparently this is what happened for a long time.
>> Meant the NVA could set up their SAMs and AAA along those routes
>> and concentrate their fire.
>
> Mosquito bombers en route to Berlin in 44-45 had set approach routes,
> well known to aircrews and flak gunners alike. The three routes were
> so well travelled that even the Jerries referred to approaching bogies
> as "stranger on (train) Platform 3". Anti-Mosquito units were
> deliberately stationed on top of the three arriving "railroad"
> routes...
>
> Glad to see we learned from that little mistake...

A friend of mine did two tours in A4s in Vietnam. Mention that
particular idiocy to him and steam starts pouring out his ears.
Anybody know what the dumbasses who thought that one up were
thinking. Was it an effort to deconflict or just plain stupidity
at high elevels. Even worse was it the politicians trying to run the
war at a tactical level?

IBM

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[Ian MacLure]

(WalterM140) wrote in
:

>>Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here. I
>>graduated from
>>college in 1968 in Arizona.
>
> Did you go to Officer Candidates School?
>
> Bush 43 did not.

So?
Was OCS the only route to a commission?

IBM

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[D. Strang]

"Bill Shatzer" > wrote
>
> But the system was dumb and undoubtably resulted in some good
> people getting killed who didn't have to be.

Most of the men killed in my platoons died because they failed
basic military skills. Every time we went out, someone would trip
over a booby trap and kill the two guys behind him that were
bunched-up. It never had anything to do with the REMF's.

I never once lacked any supply I requested. The logistics troops
were always giving us what we wanted, and the air support and
artillery were instantaneous. We almost never had to carry dead
troops out of the field. We stacked them up, and a helo came in
and took them away. We had guys who just refused to wear a
flak jacket. Nothing I could threaten them with would convince
them I was right. Most of them got stacked. **** em.

[D. Strang]

Can you imitate Thurston Howell III?

"Jack" > wrote
>
> Hey, I DEROS'd 10 days early: maybe I should run for President.

[Ian MacLure]

(WalterM140) wrote in
:

>>Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here.
>
> Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one
> problem.

So you claim.
Got any hard evidence of this?
No?
Then belt up!

IBM

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[Ian MacLure]

"D. Strang" > wrote in
news:JDRHc.16699$r3.16681@okepread03:

[snip]

> JFKerry skipped out of his last 8 months in the war zone (after
> receiving three scratches in the line of duty).

One of which ( it is alleged ) he got by playing the asshole
with explosive ordnance.

IBM

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[Bill Shatzer]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in

> The F-102A was area ruled.

I had thought that was exactly the problem with the F-102;
that it was NOT area ruled.

My quick and dirty reference (the one which most readily
falls to hand) indicates that the F-102 had a max speed
of 825 mph with a J57-P engine,

The F-106 is listed with a max speed of 1,530 mph with the
the same J57-P engine.

Something has to be going on there with the aerodynamics to
account for an 85% increase in speed with essentially the
same engine producing essentially the same thrust.



--


"Cave ab homine unius libri"

[Ian MacLure]

(WalterM140) wrote in
:

[snip]

> Some of these people want to say Bush got no special treatment, but I
> don't know of any one who ever (at least since WWII) who got
> lieutenant's bars without going through OCS or some sort of officer
> qualification program. Bush went through a six week basic air man's
> course, and then got a commission.

Was this a unique occurrence and can you prove it?

> I think that Gore's father and Bush's father both had the same idea
> in mind in the '60's. If their sons were going to have political
> aspirations, they had to serve honorably. Gore did go to Viet Nam and
> as far as I know, completely his service honorably and completely.

Shows ( once again ) what you know. Algore spent 90 days flying
a typewriter in a rear area to give his father cover during a
hard fought election then got yanked once the election was over.

> He got a cushy job, so be it. But Bush DID NOT complete his service
> honorably - his dad made sure that the records reflected honorable
> service, but unfortunately for the Bushies, there is this one pesky
> document that shows a conclusive 16 month break in Bush's service.

Cocnlusive to whom? To you? Ha! As if that matters.

> Hopefully, more will be made of this in the coming months. Because
> unlike Gore -or- Clinton, Senator Kerry served with distinction.

Not according to many of his peers in the brown water navy.
Kerry spent 120 days on station then got yanked.

IBM


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[Ian MacLure]

(WalterM140) wrote in
:

>>Probably not since OCS is Army, not Air Force.
>>
>>Next you will be telling us he never went to UPT either.
>>
>
> Did not/does not the Air Force have some sort of equivalent to OCS?
> One that prospective second lieutenants go through?

Probably more than one at the time.

IBM

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[Bill Shatzer]

Fred the Red Shirt ) writes:

> Didn't the 102 have the downward firing ejection seat that
> made low-level ejections, er, problematic?

Nah, it was "up and out" on the F-102.

But it wasn't equipped with the "zero/zero" ejection seats that
today's aircraft have - so low level ejections -were- problematic.

But then, F-102s tended to spend very little time at low altitudes.
Take offs and landings were pretty much the extent of that.

--


"Cave ab homine unius libri"

[Ian MacLure]

(WalterM140) wrote in
:

[snip]

> Senator Kerry is a decorated veteran.

KKKerry is a legend in his own mind. His colleagues are
less fullsome in their praise.

> Bush skipped the last two years of his commitment.

Prove it! Otherwise belt up.

IBM

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[Ian MacLure]

(B2431) wrote in
:

>>From: (WalterM140)
>>Date: 7/10/2004 9:41 AM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>>Probably not since OCS is Army, not Air Force.
>>>
>>>Next you will be telling us he never went to UPT either.
>>>
>>
>>Did not/does not the Air Force have some sort of equivalent to OCS?
>>One that prospective second lieutenants go through?
>>
>>Walt
>
> Sure, it's OTS. Does it matter how Bush got his butter bars? The fact
> remains he did.

And kept them. And made it through flight school without killing
himself or anybody else.
Or do you claim they just gave him his wings and pointed him at the
flight line? Wouldn't surprise me if thats your next claim.
And even if that was, by some warp of reality, what actually happened
he was at least able to fly a complex high performance airplane on
a number of occasions without any formal instruction. I would think
you'd be impressed with that level of ingenuity.

IBM

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[Ian MacLure]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in
ink.net:

> "WalterM140" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one
> problem.
>>
>
> The record indicates you're wrong. Again.

Well I think its safe to say that the only record those bozos are
interested in is broken and just keeps repeating the same old
off-key passage again and again and again.

IBM


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[Ian MacLure]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in
ink.net:

> "WalterM140" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Senator Kerry is a decorated veteran.
>>
>
> Yes, he earned some of his decorations. Nobody disputes that.

Yes indeed, some. But not all.

IBM

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[Ian MacLure]

(WalterM140) wrote in
:

>>> Sure, it's OTS. Does it matter how Bush got his butter bars? The fact
>>remains
>>> he did.
>>>
>>
>>Yes, and he got them the same way other ANG pilots got them.
>
> ANG pilots were direct commissioned? All of them?

Your reading comprehension is faulty as well as your intellect.
Read the Ed Rasimus post carefully and note who DCs were intended for.
Note also that your notion of what OCS involved isn't even close.

IBM

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[Ian MacLure]

(ArtKramr) wrote in news:20040710124412.05640.00001283@mb-
m14.aol.com:

[snip]

> More neocon bitterness.

Bitter and twisted is for losers.
We won the 2000 election.
We are going to win the 2004 election.
So who's bitter?

IBM

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[Ian MacLure]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in
ink.net:

[snip]

> No American should have gone to that war.

Its a great pity that Kennedy and Johnson didn't feel
that way.

IBM

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[Ian MacLure]

Ed Rasimus > wrote in
:


> This just in. Breaking news. John Edwards didn't serve in Vietnam.
> Where was he?

Lets see ...
Born in 1953.
So he was certainly in the zone for being drafted.
Graduated NCSU with a degree in textiles in 1974.
I'm assuming that was a four year degree.
Implies he graduated high school in 1970.
And he didn't immediately volunteer for the Marines?
Scandalous.... And with Parris Island just down the
road?
INEXCUSABLE!
He should certainly have been doing solo banzai
charges down Main Street in Hanoi according to the
Mendacious Muckfusters.
Didn't marry until 1977 so thats one avenue he couldn't
exploit.
So, we know where he was. Is it possible he drew a high
number and didn't feel inclined to serve.
Why... Why... Thats rank cowardice according to the
Muckfusters. He should be whipped flogged and purged.

IBM



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[Ian MacLure]

"D. Strang" > wrote in
news:fkXHc.19373$r3.8784@okepread03:

[snip]

> I would disagree. While I agree the war was a failure, because the
> mission was too broad: "Stop Communism." If the mission was to
> re-unify the country, then we should never have cancelled the
> elections. The country was not a threat to anyone, even as a Soviet
> client. Once we went defensive, the war was over. The Vietnamese
> found out rather quickly that the Soviets were worthless, and their
> relationship didn't last long after the war was over.

Not to mention that eternal chumship with their northern
neighbours went the way of the dodo real soon as well.

IBM

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[Ian MacLure]

(Bill Shatzer) wrote in
:

> Ed Rasimus ) writes:
>
>> This just in. Breaking news. John Edwards didn't serve in Vietnam.
>> Where was he?
>
> In high school.

Whence he graduated in circa 1970.
And the draft ended when exactly? Hmmm?

IBM

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[Ian MacLure]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in
link.net:

[snip]

> No, I'm not wrong. No American should have gone to that war. The US
> shouldn't have assisted France in reclaiming it's colony after WWII.
> After four years of German occupation the French should have learned
> something about oppression.

I believe the US tried to convince the Asiatic colonial powers that
they ought to walk away from their colonies as soon as they possibly
could and not go back in in the first place if it was at all feasible.
This not unexpectedly put French noses out of joint ( as well as Dutch
and British ).

IBM

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[B2431]

>From: Ian MacLure
>Date: 7/11/2004 2:00 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Scott Peterson > wrote in
:
>
>> Ed Rasimus > wrote:
>>
>>>Ever wonder why you never met an active duty military
>>>medical doctor in the grade of Lt?
>>
>> Met lots of them......in the Navy.
>
> D'oh!
> maybe the original should have specified an O grade
> As in you don't see Medical Officers at O-2 or below.
>
> IBM
>

Look again. Nurses and PAs start out as butter bars. Basic rule of thumb, not
followed rigidly: batchelor's degree = start as O-1, masters as O-2 and PhD as
O-3.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: Ian MacLure
>Date: 7/11/2004 2:01 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
(Bill Shatzer) wrote in
:
>
>> Ed Rasimus ) writes:
>>
>>> This just in. Breaking news. John Edwards didn't serve in Vietnam.
>>> Where was he?
>>
>> In high school.
>
> Whence he graduated in circa 1970.
> And the draft ended when exactly? Hmmm?
>
> IBM

June 1973.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: Ian MacLure


> Hmm, anybody know whether Algore tried to get a CIB?
> I presume he wouldn't have been elegible what with being behind
> a typewriter in a rear area.

He was in the wrong MOS.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Cub Driver]

On 11 Jul 2004 04:42:40 GMT, Ian MacLure > wrote:

>Of course, but (and as a B26 crew member you ought to appreciate
> this) flying high performance aircraft carries risks in and of
> itself.

A couple years ago, Art became a tired and tiresome old man. Too bad!
If history repeats itself the second time as farce, Art is in the
farcical stage. That B-26 has become a joke, with Art as its sole crew
member--pilot, navigator, gunner, bombardier--that won the war all by
itself, dropping the Farcical Bomb on Germany.

Put a sock in it, Art. Nobody's listening any more. Your vote doesn't
even matter--you can stay home in November, because California isn't
going for Bush in any event.

And don't worry! You'll learn to love him in his second term :)


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

[Cub Driver]

>> Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one problem.

It's not a problem. It's a lie, one which you have been spitting into
the wind for the past several months.

www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm

The president did good in the Texas Air Guard. And he was on the job a
whole lot longer than Mr. Kerry was.

Nor did he ever try to get out of his miitary commitment, as Kerry did
when he was a college student. See the London Telegraph story at
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/03/07/wkerr07.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/03/07/ixnewstop.html



all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

[Cub Driver]

>> Bush skipped the last two years of his commitment.

A lie. www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

[Cub Driver]

>What happened? Did your scalp lose an argument with the prop?

I wear a ball cap in lieu of sunglasses. With the bill forward, you
can't see the aileron horn coming at you. I gained a new appreciation
for low-wing aircraft, and for the college kids wearing their ball
caps backwards.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

[Cub Driver]

>> Did not/does not the Air Force have some sort of equivalent to OCS?
>> One that prospective second lieutenants go through?
>
> Probably more than one at the time.

Bush went into the ANG as an airman basic. After three months active
duty for training he was commissioned 2nd Lt and assigned to the 111th
TFS. It was indeed an accepted officer-training route in 1968.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

[Cub Driver]

>Many officers were there because
>that was the only war we had at the time and war means promotions,
>officer or enlisted lifer.

The laugh line among junior officers in Vietnam in 1964 was: "It's a
lousy war, but it's the only war we've got!"

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

[WalterM140]

>A couple years ago, Art became a tired and tiresome old man. Too bad!

Art's ability to see that Bush is a complete disaster is a credit to him.

Art -is- pretty pugnacious though. :)

Walt

[WalterM140]

>>ANG pilots were direct commissioned? All of them?
>>
>>
>>
>>Walt
>
>He went through OTS.
>

Bush went through OTS? That contradicts James Webb, who said he did not.

Also -this- document -- released by Bush -- shows that he completed enlisted
training on 9/3/68 and was commissioned a 2nd lt -- the very next day!

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc14.gif

Bush got special treatment from first to last. His records have been sanitized
and completed -after- he ducked out for two years. BUT there -is- a document
extant that PROVES at least a 16 month gap in his service.

Walt

[WalterM140]

>>Actually the ANG calls it something different...at least they did in 1994
>when
>>I went through UPT with 4 Guardsmen. Little did they know that they were
>>recieving special treatment. Please don't engage "Walt", he doesn't have a
>clue
>>about the military or aviation and as such is not worth your time. IMHO,
>"Walt"
>>is the worst troll I've seen here *ever*. At least Venik and the rest of the
>>"Serb loonies" were discussing aviation related matters....fantasy aviation,
>>but aviation none-the-less.
>>
>>
>>BUFDRVR

Bush -did-not- go through OTS or any other officer qualification program.

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc14.gif

He was commissioned the day -- after-- he completed a basic airman course.

Walt

[Smartace11]

>My quick and dirty reference (the one which most readily
>falls to hand) indicates that the F-102 had a max speed
>of 825 mph with a J57-P engine,
>
>The F-106 is listed with a max speed of 1,530 mph with the
>the same J57-P engine.
>

The F-106 had the same engine as the F-105, the J-75. Much larger engine

http://www.f-106deltadart.com/j75-motor.htm

[Brett]

"Bill Shatzer" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in
>
> > The F-102A was area ruled.
>
> I had thought that was exactly the problem with the F-102;
> that it was NOT area ruled.
>
> My quick and dirty reference (the one which most readily
> falls to hand) indicates that the F-102 had a max speed
> of 825 mph with a J57-P engine,
>
> The F-106 is listed with a max speed of 1,530 mph with the
> the same J57-P engine.
>
> Something has to be going on there with the aerodynamics to
> account for an 85% increase in speed with essentially the
> same engine producing essentially the same thrust.

They didn't use the same engine, the F-102A and the F-106A were both ruled
but the F-106A had dry what the F-102A had with afterburning.

F-102A:
One Pratt & Whitney J57-P-23 turbojet, 10,200 lb.s.t. dry and 16,000 lb.s.t.
with afterburning, or a J57-P-25, 11,700 lb.s.t. dry and 17,200 lb.s.t. with
afterburning.

F-106A:
One Pratt & Whitney J75-P-17 turbojet, 17,200 lb.s.t. dry and 24,500 lb.s.t
with afterburning.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
>From: Ian MacLure
>Date: 7/10/2004 10:41 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"D. Strang" > wrote in
>news:JDRHc.16699$r3.16681@okepread03:
>
> [snip]
>
>> JFKerry skipped out of his last 8 months in the war zone (after
>> receiving three scratches in the line of duty).
>
> One of which ( it is alleged ) he got by playing the asshole
> with explosive ordnance.
>
> IBM
>

Kerry went to war. Bush didn't


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
>From: Ian MacLure
>Date: 7/10/2004 10:55 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in
ink.net:
>
>> "WalterM140" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one
>> problem.
>>>
>>
>> The record indicates you're wrong. Again.
>
> Well I think its safe to say that the only record those bozos are
> interested in is broken and just keeps repeating the same old
> off-key passage again and again and again.
>
> IBM


Kerry went to war. Bush didn't. Nothing off key about that.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Brett]

"ArtKramr" > wrote:
> >Subject: Re: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
> >From: Ian MacLure
> >Date: 7/10/2004 10:55 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in
> ink.net:
> >
> >> "WalterM140" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>>
> >>> Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one
> >> problem.
> >>>
> >>
> >> The record indicates you're wrong. Again.
> >
> > Well I think its safe to say that the only record those bozos are
> > interested in is broken and just keeps repeating the same old
> > off-key passage again and again and again.
> >
> > IBM
>
>
> Kerry went to war.

And followed that up with testimony before congress that during that war HE
committed war crimes.

[WalterM140]

>Basic training became a requirement about 1967. By then most states also put
>their people through some kind of OCS program.

Bush did not complete any sort of officer qulification program.

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc14.gif

Walt

[WalterM140]

>But it was not manditory, a
>sharp troop with a good record and test taking capability had a good chance.

Bush scored in the lowest percentile allowed to qualify for pilot training. He
did not complete any sort of officer qualification course.

Walt

[WalterM140]

>Note also that your notion of what OCS involved isn't even close.

I garduated from Marine Corps OCS in 1981.

Walt

[WalterM140]

>> Yes, he earned some of his decorations. Nobody disputes that.
>
> Yes indeed, some. But not all.
>

Details?

Walt

[WalterM140]

>Kerry went to war. Bush didn't
>

Orwell rules here, Art. The hero is attacked and the shirker applauded.


Walt

[WalterM140]

>> Bush skipped the last two years of his commitment.
>
> Prove it! Otherwise belt up.

This document shows that Bush had no service between 26 May, '72 and 1 Oct, 73.

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc10.gif

This document shows Bush assigned to a unit in Denver from 2 Oct, '73 to 21
November 73, while he actually was in graduate school.

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc14.gif

Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment.


More here:

http://www.democrats.com/display.cfm?id=157

Walt

[WalterM140]

>
>A lie. www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm

You're not going to gainsay this document:

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc10.gif

Bush clearly had so service from 26 May, '72 to 1 Oct, '73.

After 1 Oct, '73, Bush, per his own military resume, was stationed at a unit in
Denver while he was in graduate school on the east coast. Can you show that he
ever appeared in Denver?

Bush had no service between 26 May, 72 and his discharge on 21 Nov 74.

Walt

[WalterM140]

>>> Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one
>problem.
>
>It's not a problem. It's a lie, one which you have been spitting into
>the wind for the past several months.
>
>www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm

Bush had no service between 26 May 72 and 21 Nov 74.

Walt

[Smartace11]

>This document shows that Bush had no service between 26 May, '72 and 1 Oct,
>73.

So what. A lot of people did that. Some even got paid by the AF to do that,
wore civilian clothes, and did not attend drills or formation. Still do today.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Didn't the 102 have the downward firing ejection seat that
> made low-level ejections, er, problematic?
>

No, it did not. I believe you're thinking of the early F-104.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> Kerry went to war. Bush didn't
>

Who did you support for president in 1992? 1996?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"WalterM140" > wrote in message
...
>
> This document shows that Bush had no service between 26 May, '72 and 1
Oct, 73.
>
> http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc10.gif
>
> This document shows Bush assigned to a unit in Denver from 2 Oct, '73 to
21
> November 73, while he actually was in graduate school.
>
> http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc14.gif
>
> Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment.
>
>
> More here:
>
> http://www.democrats.com/display.cfm?id=157
>

Your documentation is incomplete.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> Kerry went to war. Bush didn't. Nothing off key about that.
>

Who did you support for president in 1992? 1996?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"WalterM140" > wrote in message
...
>
> Bush had no service between 26 May 72 and 21 Nov 74.
>

Prove it.

[D. Strang]

"WalterM140" > wrote
> >A couple years ago, Art became a tired and tiresome old man. Too bad!
>
> Art's ability to see that Bush is a complete disaster is a credit to him.

Art should bow to Texas, as the President has signed every welfare bill
put before him.

[D. Strang]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Kerry went to war. Bush didn't

I guess that would earn him a free cup of coffee, but then he told
Congress that he was a war criminal, so maybe we should hold back
on that coffee for a bit.

Ask yourself this question: how would you feel if your crew got to
go home after 3 months overseas, and you had to stay for duration
plus six months? Would you say "they went to war" as excited as
you are about JFKerry?

[Steve Mellenthin]

>Ask yourself this question: how would you feel if your crew got to
>go home after 3 months overseas, and you had to stay for duration
>plus six months? Would you say "they went to war" as excited as
>you are about JFKerry?

Always wondered about that early departure. Can anyone explain?

[WalterM140]

>>Ask yourself this question: how would you feel if your crew got to
>>go home after 3 months overseas, and you had to stay for duration
>>plus six months? Would you say "they went to war" as excited as
>>you are about JFKerry?
>
>Always wondered about that early departure. Can anyone explain?
>

Anyone wounded three times could opt out.

It occurs to me that this is what the protagonist in "Platoon" does also.

Walt

[Ed Rasimus]

On 11 Jul 2004 04:31:51 GMT, (Bill Shatzer)
wrote:

>Ed Rasimus ) writes:
>
>-snip-
>
>> Sorry, Bill, but that simply isn't so. While "early outs" were
>> becoming available for a few specialties as early as '71,
>
>Well, certainly much earlier than that. Heck -I- got an "early out"
>in the summer of '67 which cut almost three full months of my
>enlistment.

My first tour was '66 and it was mission count, not DEROS. Since 60%
of the folks starting the mission count tour didn't complete it, no
one was too worried about a fixed date DEROS. Support personnel,
however, were on a "controlled tour" which meant one year from the
date of departure from CONUS. Your three month early out would have to
be taken in the context of where you were stationed, your MOS/AFSC,
and your existing time in service.
>
>> the policy
>> didn't apply to overseas tours which were strictly controlled.
>
>I seem to recall a couple members of my unit who received "early
>outs" which not only cut their enlistment terms but also were
>granted in advance of their scheduled DROS cutting a month or
>so off their scheduled RVN tours. But, it was a long time ago,
>perhaps I misremember.

Perhaps.
>
>> And, you really might want to look up the duration of Mr. Gore's
>> overseas assignment.
>
>Everything I've seen sez it was early January, '71 through late
>May, '71 with a scheduled discharge date of August 5, '71.
>
>You have information to the contrary?

Here's a quote: "When they finally came, he would spend less than
five months in Vietnam, arriving on Jan. 8, 1971, to write newspaper
and magazine articles. He was discharged on May 24, 1971." (The
Washington Times National Weekly Edition Nov. 28 - Dec. 4, 1994)

I said Gore spent 151 days of a year tour. You replied that he only
got a two-month curtailment. The difference would be 151 days
(Jan-May???) versus 10 months x 30 days or 300 days. I think the
Washington Times dates, my statement, and your "Everything I've seen
sez" all indicate that your asssertion of a two month curtailment was
incorrect. So, we have information to the contrary.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[WalterM140]

>It's just neocon bitterness from a president and vice president who ever went
>to war when they damn well should have.

You couldn't kick too hard with Bush going into the Air Guard -- those Century
series fighters -could- easily kill you (so I hear).

But Bush skated out on the last two years of his six year commitment, but then
has the gall to attack Senator Kerry's service. That needs to be confronted.

Bush skipped the last two years of his commitment. He didn't even go through an
officer candidate course.

When I say that Bush attacked Kerry's record, I mean of course that the Bush
campaign attacked Kerry. Bush probably has a little to do with this as he does
with carrying out his presidential functions, which seem to be to act just as a
figurhead.

Walt

[WalterM140]

>
> Whence he graduated in circa 1970.
> And the draft ended when exactly? Hmmm?

Edwards in 51 YO. That would put him in the 1971 HS class. The draft ended in
1972.

Walt

[D. Strang]

"Steve Mellenthin" > wrote
> >Ask yourself this question: how would you feel if your crew got to
> >go home after 3 months overseas, and you had to stay for duration
> >plus six months? Would you say "they went to war" as excited as
> >you are about JFKerry?
>
> Always wondered about that early departure. Can anyone explain?

I think the story is, that he found out that you could request assignment
out of a war zone upon the award of three purple hearts. He then
went to sick call every time he got a scratch.

[WalterM140]

>The "six week basic air man's (sic) course" is OTS.

Bush's military resume says he was enlisted prior to 3 September 1968.

This is the link:

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc14.gif

I went to Officer Candidate School at Quantico. I was never (for that purpose)
considered as an enlisted man.

Now there -are- some differences between the Army/Air Force and Marines/Navy
terminology and methodology.

>You might also use the correct terminology while spouting
>your propaganda. The commissioning course is Officer Training School,
>not Officer Training School which was the term during WW II for Army
>"90 day wonders".

Oh, it wasn't Officer Training School, it was Officer Training School?


Again, officer candidates in the Marines/Navy are -not- considered to be
enlisted members.

Are you categoricially saying that ANG, Air Force or whatever -- that those
officer candidates -are- enlisted men?

James Webb has also said that Bush did not attend an officer candidate course.
I'll stick with that.

Walt

[Steve Mellenthin]

>Edwards in 51 YO. That would put him in the 1971 HS class. The draft ended
>in
>1972.

1973

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
>From: Ian MacLure
>Date: 7/10/2004 11:32 PM Pa

>
> We won the 2000 election.
> We are going to win the 2004 election.
> So who's bitter?
>
> IBM

Bush was not elected. He was appointed. We'll fix that in November.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
>From: (WalterM140)
>Date: 7/11/2004 6:03 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>But it was not manditory, a
>>sharp troop with a good record and test taking capability had a good chance.
>
>Bush scored in the lowest percentile allowed to qualify for pilot training.
>He
>did not complete any sort of officer qualification course.
>
>Walt
>

And he was a "C: student through school. Not exactly the most coloful crayon in
the box.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[BUFDRVR]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

>Who did you support for president in 1992? 1996?

There's no way Kramer can answer that question without looking
foolish....again.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
>From: (WalterM140)
>Date: 7/11/2004 6:26 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Kerry went to war. Bush didn't
>>
>
>Orwell rules here, Art. The hero is attacked and the shirker applauded.
>
>
>Walt

Yup. It's the neocon way


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
>From: "D. Strang"
>Date: 7/11/2004 9:17 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <cIdIc.22534$r3.2123@okepread03>
>
>"Steve Mellenthin" > wrote
>> >Ask yourself this question: how would you feel if your crew got to
>> >go home after 3 months overseas, and you had to stay for duration
>> >plus six months? Would you say "they went to war" as excited as
>> >you are about JFKerry?
>>
>> Always wondered about that early departure. Can anyone explain?
>
>I think the story is, that he found out that you could request assignment
>out of a war zone upon the award of three purple hearts. He then
>went to sick call every time he got a scratch.


If I got wounded twice and got two Purple Hearts and a Silver Star I would do
the same thing. Anyone with a brain in their head would do the same thing.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Steve Mellenthin]

>If I got wounded twice and got two Purple Hearts and a Silver Star I would do
>the same thing. Anyone with a brain in their head would do the same thing.

We apparently had a lot of brainless people in Vietnam then. Ditto in WWII?

[D. Strang]

"WalterM140" > wrote
> >
> >Always wondered about that early departure. Can anyone explain?
>
> Anyone wounded three times could opt out.
>
> It occurs to me that this is what the protagonist in "Platoon" does also.

Platoon is good fiction, based sort of on incidents of real life, but highly
dramatic for effect. In the script he's always called "Chris" while everyone
else has their last name or a nickname. It's common in the military to only
use a persons last name. Mail call, etc, it's just easier that way. But the
script emphasises "Chris" to signify that he is not really one of them. He's
just there for the tour, and then will get on with his life. Everyone else in
the story calls him "Taylor" but in the script he is "Chris." He opts out of
the war on his second wound, and he will accept it, because he knows he
can't take it. The war is beneath him. In the last scene he looks at "Rhah"
who, like a true Centurion, is victorious again with his walking stick and
fist, ready for the next battle, and "Chris" knows he made the right choice
to leave. He can never become a warrior, only a survivor. He murdered
the warrior who had kept him alive.

His final words are: "those of us who did make it have an obligation to build
again, to teach to others what we know and to try with what's left of our
lives to find a goodness and meaning to this life"

It's the words of a murderer, who failed to become a warrior, and left the
battle. What does he have to teach? What goodness and meaning are to
be found? "Chris" becomes the spokesman for the warrior, yet he is not a
warrior, and the people he returns to do not know this. Thus the power of
this ending actually brings me to tear, it is well written. The true warriors are
just completely forgotten in life, like ants, as in this story.

[WalterM140]

>I think the story is, that he found out that you could request assignment
>out of a war zone upon the award of three purple hearts. He then
>went to sick call every time he got a scratch.
>

One of Senator Kerry's wounds is described in his Bronze Star citation:

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/Bronze_Star.pdf

Walt

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
>From: (Steve Mellenthin)
>Date: 7/11/2004 10:31 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>If I got wounded twice and got two Purple Hearts and a Silver Star I would
>do
>>the same thing. Anyone with a brain in their head would do the same thing.
>
>We apparently had a lot of brainless people in Vietnam then. Ditto in WWII?
>

The more missions you fly, the more times you get wounded the slimmer the
chances of survival are. But you know that, don't you?



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[D. Strang]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> If I got wounded twice and got two Purple Hearts and a Silver Star I would do
> the same thing. Anyone with a brain in their head would do the same thing.

But then you would miss your "adventure" you bragged about before joining.

The people who wouldn't do that are Generals now. Rank way above politicians.

[D. Strang]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> And he was a "C: student through school. Not exactly the most coloful crayon in
> the box.

I don't know what your grades were, but neither of us have never been Governor,
or President, so I guess the grades don't mean much in real life, do they?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Steve Mellenthin" > wrote in message
...
>
> Always wondered about that early departure. Can anyone explain?
>

Three Purple Hearts got one an early out from Vietnam. It appears Kerry's
first one was not earned.

[WalterM140]

> He opts out of
>the war on his second wound,

As I recall, Chris was wounded three times, and so was the one black soldier
who stabbed himself in the thigh after the big attack.

Walt

[WalterM140]

>Three Purple Hearts got one an early out from Vietnam. It appears Kerry's
>first one was not earned.
>

Here's the link:

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/Purple_Heart_1_Citation.pdf

Walt

[WalterM140]

>If I got wounded twice and got two Purple Hearts and a Silver Star I would do
>the same thing. Anyone with a brain in their head would do the same thing.

What did you get a Silver Star for, Art?




Walt

[D. Strang]

"WalterM140" > wrote
> > He opts out of
> >the war on his second wound,
>
> As I recall, Chris was wounded three times, and so was the one black soldier
> who stabbed himself in the thigh after the big attack.

It's a minor distinction, you could be right, the point is more about opting out,
rather than the number of wounds. I believe the black soldier was more interested
in getting a blow job from the white nurses than anything else in life.

[B2431]

>From: (WalterM140)
>Date: 7/11/2004 8:04 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Note also that your notion of what OCS involved isn't even close.
>
>I garduated from Marine Corps OCS in 1981.
>
>Walt

They didn't teach you to spell? Did they teach you the difference between the
branch's missions? If memory serves USMC OCS includes infantry training. Are
you suggestion Bush should have had that training too? How about the Navy
commissioning programs, should they have infantry training too?

Do you think doctors and clergy need the same level of training before being
commisioned?

We had a Rabbi here at Eglin that was wearing his uniform and ministering to us
before he did his 2 week orientation because of Passover. Are you goung to tell
us he "avoided OCS?"

Don't let your neo-left bitterness blind you so much.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
>From: (WalterM140)
>Date: 7/11/2004 11:59 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>If I got wounded twice and got two Purple Hearts and a Silver Star I would
>do
>>the same thing. Anyone with a brain in their head would do the same thing.
>
>What did you get a Silver Star for, Art?
>
>
>
>
>Walt
>

I said "IF".



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[B2431]

>rom: (ArtKramr)
>
>And he was a "C: student through school. Not exactly the most coloful crayon
>in
>the box.
>
>
>Arthur Kramer
>344th BG 494th BS


Art, I was a C student in school for exactly the same reason: I am dyslexic. I
don't know what Bush's IQ is, but mine is 142. Are you going to tell me I'm
stupid?

Don't let your neo-left bitterness get in the way.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ian MacLure" > wrote in message
...
>
> Seems I had the development history confabulated with the
> operational versions. Couldn't find the reference that talked
> the development issues which (IIRC) included area ruling to
> deal with unexpectedly high drag
>

The YF-102 did not incorporate the area rule. The YF-102A and later
versions did.

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)



>
>Kerry went to war. Bush didn't. Nothing off key about that.
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

Neither did Carter, Reagan or Clinton. Howeve Carter and Reagan DID serve in
the military without going into combat.

If going into actual combat is all that makes a man respectable then it's safe
to assume you don't respect your ground crew and all the men who put you in a
servicable airplane. Someone had to be cooks, clerical staff, truck
drivers..etc.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 7/11/2004 12:24 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
>>From: (WalterM140)
>>Date: 7/11/2004 6:26 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>>Kerry went to war. Bush didn't
>>>
>>
>>Orwell rules here, Art. The hero is attacked and the shirker applauded.
>>
>>
>>Walt
>
>Yup. It's the neocon way
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

You neo-lefties are amazing. Are you suggesting no one who didn't see combat is
qualified for the presidency? That would mean Hoover, FDR, Carter, Reagan and
Clinton as well as several others were not qualified.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Steve Mellenthin]

>>>If I got wounded twice and got two Purple Hearts and a Silver Star I would
>>do
>>>the same thing. Anyone with a brain in their head would do the same thing.
>>
>>We apparently had a lot of brainless people in Vietnam then. Ditto in WWII?
>>
>
> The more missions you fly, the more times you get wounded the slimmer the
>chances of survival are. But you know that, don't you?
>
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

Guess it is all a matter of how committed you are and how important you think
the job is you have been assigned to do

In the military we call it service above self.
I get the feeling somehow that our friend JFkerry wasn't as committed to
service as he was to self. Sorta seems as if he couldn't wait to get back to
the States to campaign and help out his little friend Janie.

[Ian MacLure]

(WalterM140) wrote in
:

>>
>> Whence he graduated in circa 1970.
>> And the draft ended when exactly? Hmmm?
>
> Edwards in 51 YO. That would put him in the 1971 HS class. The draft
> ended in 1972.

So explain how he graduated from a 4 yr college in 1974.
Did he have a time machine?

IBM

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[Ian MacLure]

(WalterM140) wrote in
:

>>Note also that your notion of what OCS involved isn't even close.
>
> I garduated from Marine Corps OCS in 1981.


Pity you didn't pay attention to spelling in public school.

Anyhoo, last time I looked the Marine Corps was the property
of the Navy.
And as I'm sure you've been told at least once in your sorry
existence:

There's
A right way.
A wrong way
And-uh, an [Army/Navy/Air Force/Marine Corps/Coast Guard]
way.
Ed Rasimus is in a position to comment authoritatively on
how the USAF did things and gosh darn it during the period
in question to boot. Ed would know. You, on the other hand
would not. As if that were not already abundantly clear.

IBM

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[BUFDRVR]

Dan wrote:

>If going into actual combat is all that makes a man respectable then it's
>safe
>to assume you don't respect your ground crew and all the men who put you in a
>servicable airplane. Someone had to be cooks, clerical staff, truck
>drivers..etc.

Have not read Art's stuff before? He doesn't respect the service of the above
mentioned personnel.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[D. Strang]

"Steve Mellenthin" > wrote
>
> I get the feeling somehow that our friend JFkerry wasn't as committed to
> service as he was to self. Sorta seems as if he couldn't wait to get back to
> the States to campaign and help out his little friend Janie.

It's telling that a soldier like Senator Dole quit the senate to run for President,
and JFKerry who is keeping a backup plan. His attendance record is really
hurting his state, but it is another form of self-service.

[D. Strang]

"Ian MacLure" > wrote
> (WalterM140) wrote
> >> Whence he graduated in circa 1970.
> >> And the draft ended when exactly? Hmmm?
> >
> > Edwards in 51 YO. That would put him in the 1971 HS class. The draft
> > ended in 1972.
>
> So explain how he graduated from a 4 yr college in 1974.
> Did he have a time machine?

Summer School? CLEP?

[B2431]

>From: Cub Driver

<snip>
>
>The laugh line among junior officers in Vietnam in 1964 was: "It's a
>lousy war, but it's the only war we've got!"
>

That line has also been used in movies. I am willing to bet it probably goes
back to the invention of the rock. I wonder when the "shell fragment removed
from eye" gag first came out.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: (WalterM140)
>Date: 7/11/2004 11:14 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>
>> Whence he graduated in circa 1970.
>> And the draft ended when exactly? Hmmm?
>
>Edwards in 51 YO. That would put him in the 1971 HS class. The draft ended
>in
>1972.
>
>Walt

It ended in 1973.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Bill Shatzer]

Ed Rasimus ) writes:

-snip-

>>> And, you really might want to look up the duration of Mr. Gore's
>>> overseas assignment.

>>Everything I've seen sez it was early January, '71 through late
>>May, '71 with a scheduled discharge date of August 5, '71.

>>You have information to the contrary?

> Here's a quote: "When they finally came, he would spend less than
> five months in Vietnam, arriving on Jan. 8, 1971, to write newspaper
> and magazine articles. He was discharged on May 24, 1971." (The
> Washington Times National Weekly Edition Nov. 28 - Dec. 4, 1994)

> I said Gore spent 151 days of a year tour. You replied that he only
> got a two-month curtailment. The difference would be 151 days
> (Jan-May???) versus 10 months x 30 days or 300 days. I think the
> Washington Times dates, my statement, and your "Everything I've seen
> sez" all indicate that your asssertion of a two month curtailment was
> incorrect. So, we have information to the contrary.

I'm really trying to understand your point, Ed, and I'm apparently
missing it completely. Gore had, at most, a seven month tour.

Gove's enlistment was up on August 5, 1971. As I don't think they
were doing "stop-loses" in that era and certainly not for folks
with journalist MOSs, Gove was NOT going to be in VN after
early August in any event.

If he was discharged May 24, he served in VN two months and 12
days less than the maximum he might have served there.

As to why he didn't arrive in VN until January 8, that would seem
a differnet question but one which seems largely irrelevant.

There seems little dispute that he in fact -did- volunteer
for assignment to VN. It was certainly not unknown for the
Army bureaucracy to take its own sweet time between the receipt
of a re-assignment request and the time the orders were actually
cut.

Cheers,

--


"Cave ab homine unius libri"

[Bill Shatzer]

Ian MacLure ) writes:
> (WalterM140) wrote in
> :

>>> Whence he graduated in circa 1970.
>>> And the draft ended when exactly? Hmmm?

>> Edwards in 51 YO. That would put him in the 1971 HS class. The draft
>> ended in 1972.

> So explain how he graduated from a 4 yr college in 1974.
> Did he have a time machine?

Not a trick - I entered Oregon State in the summer of '67 and
graduated in May '70.

Attend summer school and take one extra class a term and you've
more than enough credits to graduate in 3 years - or even less.

Not saying Edwards did that, but it was certainly possible.

Cheers,

--


"Cave ab homine unius libri"

[B2431]

>From: (WalterM140)
>Date: 7/11/2004 10:50 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>>Ask yourself this question: how would you feel if your crew got to
>>>go home after 3 months overseas, and you had to stay for duration
>>>plus six months? Would you say "they went to war" as excited as
>>>you are about JFKerry?
>>
>>Always wondered about that early departure. Can anyone explain?
>>
>
>Anyone wounded three times could opt out.
>
>It occurs to me that this is what the protagonist in "Platoon" does also.
>
>Walt

Mein Gott, herr Goebels, we can cite fictional movies to bolster our argument!

This puts you in the same category as teuton and denyav.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Bill Shatzer" > wrote in message
...
>
> I had thought that was exactly the problem with the F-102;
> that it was NOT area ruled.
>

The YF-102 was not area ruled, the YF-102A and later models were.


>
> My quick and dirty reference (the one which most readily
> falls to hand) indicates that the F-102 had a max speed
> of 825 mph with a J57-P engine,
>
> The F-106 is listed with a max speed of 1,530 mph with the
> the same J57-P engine.
>
> Something has to be going on there with the aerodynamics to
> account for an 85% increase in speed with essentially the
> same engine producing essentially the same thrust.
>

They didn't use the same engine, the F-106 used the J75-P-17.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"WalterM140" > wrote in message
...
>
> Details?
>

The following letter appeared in the USA Today "Letters" section on June
25th last, page 8A:



Criticism of Kerry's Purple Heart is just

Retired U.S. army colonel David Hackworth defends presidential
candidate John Kerry's Purple Hearts. He correctly notes that they are
awarded for a wound that necessitates treatment by a medical officer and
that is received in action with an enemy ('The meaning of a Purple Heart,"
The Forum, June 16).

I was the commanding officer to whom Kerry reported his injury on Dec.
3, 1968. I had confirmed that there was no hostile fire that night and that
Kerry had simply wounded himself with an M-79 grenade round he fired too
close. He wanted a Purple Heart, and I refused. Louis Letson, the base
physician, saw Kerry and used tweezers to remove the tiny piece of
shrapnel - about 1 centi*meter in length and 2 millimeters in di*ameter.
Letson also confirmed that the scratch was inflicted with our M-79.

We admire Col. Hackworth, but he, above all people, knows why it is
unac*ceptable to nominate yourself for an award. It compromises the basic
military principle that we survive together. To promote yourself is to
denigrate your team. I hope Col. Hackworth will rethink his characterization
of Kerry's swift-boat comrades as "grousers" passing on "secondhand bilge."
In our case, this is firsthand knowledge, and our integrity is unquestioned.

Kerry orchestrated his way out of Viet*nam and then testified, under
oath, be*fore Congress that we, his comrades, had committed horrible war
crimes. This tes*timony was a lie and slandered honor*able men. We, who were
actually there, believe he is unfit to command our sons and daughters.

Grant Hibbard, retired commander US. Navy, Gulf Breeze, Fla.

Louis Letson, M.D. Retired lieutenant commander Medical Corps, US. Navy
Reserve Scottsboro, Ala.

[Ian MacLure]

(WalterM140) wrote in
:

>>But it was not manditory, a
>>sharp troop with a good record and test taking capability had a good
>>chance.
>
> Bush scored in the lowest percentile allowed to qualify for pilot
> training. He did not complete any sort of officer qualification
> course.

Ed Rasimus claims otherwise and he was in a position to actually
know about such things. Bush got the same basic training as many
other ANG officer candidates.

IBM

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[Steven P. McNicoll]

"WalterM140" > wrote in message
...
>
> But Bush skated out on the last two years of his six year commitment, but
then
> has the gall to attack Senator Kerry's service. That needs to be
confronted.
>

You keep saying that, but you have yet to present any hard evidence of it.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"WalterM140" > wrote in message
...
>
> Edwards in 51 YO. That would put him in the 1971 HS class. The
> draft ended in 1972.
>

So, then, what you're saying is he elected not to volunteer for Vietnam.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> Bush was not elected. He was appointed.
>

You need to find better sources of information.



>
> We'll fix that in November.
>

Another attempt to steal an election? Bush will be reelected.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
...
> Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>
> >Who did you support for president in 1992? 1996?
>
> There's no way Kramer can answer that question without looking
> foolish....again.
>

He's in the same boat as many that condemn Bush, and they all look mighty
foolish.

[Ian MacLure]

(ArtKramr) wrote in
:

[snip]

> And he was a "C: student through school. Not exactly the most coloful
> crayon in the box.

Einstein failed math. Whats your point?

IBM


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[BUFDRVR]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote;

>He's in the same boat as many that condemn Bush, and they all look mighty
>foolish.

I don't know, some who oppose Bush just have different views on certain issues,
but these far left wackos who fully supported Clinton for 8 years and defended
his actions during the Vietnam era look like fools attacking Bush on his
actions. Kramer is one of them. He voted for Clinton in '92 over Bush, a WW II
aviator and again in '96 by voting for Clinton over Bob Dole, a decorated 10th
Mountain Division soldier in Italy during WW II. Kramer doesn't care about
combat, he cares about social security and the democrats long ago convinced the
older generation that Republicans are out to steal their SS.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
>
> If going into actual combat is all that makes a man respectable then it's
safe
> to assume you don't respect your ground crew and all the men who put you
in a
> servicable airplane. Someone had to be cooks, clerical staff, truck
> drivers..etc.
>

Kramer has indicated many times in this forum that he did not respect those
people.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"D. Strang" > wrote in message
news:kXgIc.22594$r3.14173@okepread03...
>
> It's telling that a soldier like Senator Dole quit the senate to run for
President,
> and JFKerry who is keeping a backup plan. His attendance record is really
> hurting his state, but it is another form of self-service.
>

Kerry is the most liberal person in the Senate, his attendance record can
only help his state and the rest of the country.

[Regnirps]

"D. Strang" > wrote in message

> I remember queuing up for a C-141 ride to Panama. This LtCol came
> out and told us that the Officers would get on first so they could pick the
> best seats, and the enlisted would get on second.

I don't recall any "best steats" unless you mean sitting in the webbing with
your back to one of the couple of tiny windows. If you tried to look out for
very lonf you got a major pain in the neck. No, but I DO remember clever pilots
slipping to loose altitude with a bay full of people facing sideways and no
windows. There were a lot of folks trying not to loose their cookies.

-- Charlie Springer

[Regnirps]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>Kerry went to war. Bush didn't

So volunteering and getting turned down isn't good enough? I wanted to be a FAC
but was 4F with kidney stones (how do you get kidney stones at that age?). At
least that meant i could get in tge lifeboat before the women and children ;-)

Bush went the whole route of training and flying. Then they phased out his
plane. We ARE taking about the Johnson Era military after all. They had me mow
lawns for three weeks then sent me home.

Hmmm. I have enjoyed our converstions in the past, but I don't understand this
attitude. Could it be that Bush was a pilot and you were a ???? Is something
eating at you about that after all this time?

-- Charlie Springer

[Mike Williamson]

Ian MacLure wrote:



>>Anyone wounded three times could opt out.
>
>
> Of course if its discovered that any of those were self
> inflicted as it is alleged that Baby Killer Kerry did...
>

In his defense, I haven't seen any reports that he *intentionally*
wounded himeself, as is traditionally considered in the
self-inflicted wound category. Apparently this was more an instance
of carelessness than intent to injure himself.

Mike

[Regnirps]

(WalterM140) wrote:

>Anyone wounded three times could opt out.

The rules are very specific and he met them with the possible exception of the
rummored self inflicted wound from gofing around with agrenade launcher. But
the nature of the mission and action being undertaked might mitigate that if
true. there is debate between his own statements and those of some of his crew
and the physician.

One of the wounds was treated with a bandaid. By the strick interpretation, he
qualified. However there were plenty of men on the ground who would have had
dozens of awards if they counted every bandaid type wound received under the
amended Purple Heart rules and they stayed for years. Most of the time Kerry
was in the Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club.

-- Charlie Springer

[Regnirps]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>If I got wounded twice and got two Purple Hearts and a Silver Star I would do
>the same thing. Anyone with a brain in their head would do the same thing.

Sorry, you can only get one Purple Heart.

-- Charlie Springer

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
(Regnirps) wrote:

> (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
> >If I got wounded twice and got two Purple Hearts and a Silver Star I would do
> >the same thing. Anyone with a brain in their head would do the same thing.
>
> Sorry, you can only get one Purple Heart.

This is going to surprise a lot of veterans who earned multiple purple
hearts.

[Dweezil Dwarftosser]

Ian MacLure wrote:
>
> (WalterM140) wrote:

> > Edwards in 51 YO. That would put him in the 1971 HS class. The draft
> > ended in 1972.
>
> So explain how he graduated from a 4 yr college in 1974.
> Did he have a time machine?

Snicker. Most of the folks attending NCSU (Edwards' alma mater)
are on the five-year-plan for their four-year degrees, today.

[Dweezil Dwarftosser]

"D. Strang" wrote:
>
> "Steve Mellenthin" > wrote
> >
> > I get the feeling somehow that our friend JFkerry wasn't as committed to
> > service as he was to self. Sorta seems as if he couldn't wait to get back to
> > the States to campaign and help out his little friend Janie.
>
> It's telling that a soldier like Senator Dole quit the senate to run for President,
> and JFKerry who is keeping a backup plan. His attendance record is really
> hurting his state, but it is another form of self-service.

Heheh. Edwards' attendance record isn't even half as good
as Kerry's. I live in North Carolina - in Raleigh, Edwards'
current home. For the past six years, the only time we've seen
or heard from him, was on TV giving a fund-raising speech in
Iowa. There are only two known examples of his responses to
constituents' letters and petitions.

But we didn't complain; the less time he spent in DC or Raleigh,
the less he could screw things up.
He would not have been re-elected a Senator - and NC will once
again award all its electoral votes to Bush in November.

Watch.

[WalterM140]

> He voted for Clinton in '92 over Bush, a WW II
>aviator

As president, Bush 41 stumbled into an unneccesary war in the Gulf that cost @
300 US servicemen their lives. He needed to go.

What I can't figure is how many veterans of combat who post here are oblivious
to the fact that both Bush presidencies have cost us hundreds of dead service
people to no good purpose whatsoever.

The roots of this war can be traced easily back to 1990-91. And we now have
7,000 + casualties in Iraq and we are less safer here at home, we're
bankrupting ourselves, the intellgence community is in a shambles, and we've
distanced ourselves from our best allies.

Bush is the worst president ever and he has to go.

Walt

[WalterM140]

>> Edwards in 51 YO. That would put him in the 1971 HS class. The
>> draft ended in 1972.
>>
>
>So, then, what you're saying is he elected not to volunteer for Vietnam.

I am pretty sure the particulars of that will come out.

Walt

[WalterM140]

>> But Bush skated out on the last two years of his six year commitment, but
>then
>> has the gall to attack Senator Kerry's service. That needs to be
>confronted.
>>
>
>You keep saying that, but you have yet to present any hard evidence of it.
>
>

Hard evidence.

What there is no hard evidence of is of Bush's attendance at a drill after May,
1972, or a photo of him, or anyone who remembers him.

The commanding officer to whom he was support to report in Alabama has said
categorically that Bush -did-not- report. The unit Bush was assigned to in
October 1973 is/was in Denver. Bush was at Harvard.

Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment.

Walt

[WalterM140]

>> Anyone wounded three times could opt out.
>
> Of course if its discovered that any of those were self
> inflicted as it is alleged that Baby Killer Kerry did...

Seriously now. Have you got even a shred of proof of that?

No wonder this country is going in the toilet if people like you vote.

Walt

[WalterM140]

>> Of course if its discovered that any of those were self
>> inflicted as it is alleged that Baby Killer Kerry did...
>>
>
> In his defense, I haven't seen any reports that he *intentionally*
>wounded himeself, as is traditionally considered in the
>self-inflicted wound category. Apparently this was more an instance
>of carelessness than intent to injure himself.

Apparently? Apparently what?

There's been no hint that Kerry's service was anything less than exemplary.

His fit rep:

"In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG
(Lieutenant Junior Grade) Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed tactics
and lessons learned in river operations and applied his experience at every
opportunity. On one occasion while in tactical command of a three boat
operation his units were taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly
assessed the situation and ordered his units to turn directly into the ambush.
This decision resulted in routing the attackers with several enemy KIAs.

LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing
and appearance are above reproach. He has of his own volition learned the
Vietnamese language and is instrumental in the successful Vietnamese training
programs.

During this period of this report LTJG Kerry has been awarded the Silver Star
medal, the Bronze Star medal, the Purple Heart medal (2nd and 3rd awards).

18 Dec 1969"

http://www.awolbush.com/kerry-vs-bush.asp



Walt

[Cub Driver]

>Platoon is good fiction

I don't agree. I think of it as the least of the Vietnam war movies
(well, there was always "A Yank in Vietnam"), and a wholly
unconvincing portrait of combat. It's not even good fiction.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

[Tex Houston]

"Regnirps" > wrote in message
...
> (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
> >If I got wounded twice and got two Purple Hearts and a Silver Star I
would do
> >the same thing. Anyone with a brain in their head would do the same
thing.
>
> Sorry, you can only get one Purple Heart.
>
> -- Charlie Springer

Why would you assume you could get only one Purple Heart?

Extract...

This award, the modern form of the original Purple Heart established by
General George Washington in 1782, is conferred on any person wounded in
action while serving with the Armed Forces of the United States. It is also
awarded posthumously to the next of kin of personnel killed or having died
of wounds received in action after April 5, 1917.

The Purple Heart is awarded for wounds or death as result of an act of any
opposing Armed Force, as a result of an international terrorist attack or as
a result of military operations while serving as part of a peacekeeping
force. Prior to the adoption of the Legion of Merit and Bronze Star Medal,
it was given by the Army for meritorious service. The decoration was
authorized for the Army by a War Department order of February 22, 1932, and
for Navy and Marine Corps personnel by a Navy Department order of January
21, 1943, superseded by an executive order of November 12, 1952.

The heart-shaped medal, one of the best known and also one of the most
beautiful of our decorations, was designed by Elizabeth Will and modeled by
John R. Sinnock. The inner heart on the obverse is of purple plastic
(originally enamel), and the sculptured outer heart of gold-colored metal.
On the purple heart General Washington is shown in profile, facing left, in
a relief also of gold-colored metal. Above this heart is Washington's coat
of arms, and enamel shield of white with two horizontal bands of red, and
above them three red stars with sprays of green leaves on either side of the
shield.

The reverse of the medal is entirely of gold-colored metal, including the
shield and leaves. Within the sculptured outer heart and below the shield is
the inscription, set in three lines, "For Military Merit," with a space
below for the recipient's name. The ribbon is deep purple with narrow white
edges.

Second and subsequent awards of the Purple Heart are denoted by a gold star
for Navy and Marine Corps personnel and by an oak-leaf cluster for Army and
Air Force personnel. Authorized Device: Oak leaf Cluster.



End...

Note the last sentence.



Tex Houston

[D. Strang]

"Cub Driver" > wrote
>
> >Platoon is good fiction
>
> I don't agree. I think of it as the least of the Vietnam war movies
> (well, there was always "A Yank in Vietnam"), and a wholly
> unconvincing portrait of combat. It's not even good fiction.

I've seen a lot of Westerns, and John Wayne war movies, and Platoon
is near the top, mainly for the script, and for the acting. It probably
has as much to do with Vietnam, as John Wayne's had to do about
D-Day or the Pacific.

[D. Strang]

"Regnirps" > wrote
> (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
> >If I got wounded twice and got two Purple Hearts and a Silver Star I would do
> >the same thing. Anyone with a brain in their head would do the same thing.
>
> Sorry, you can only get one Purple Heart.

You are incorrect. Any medal can be won multiple times. You might display them
with oak leaves or stars, but those represent a medal. Actually, it is the paperwork
that has the most value. The medal is just something for mamma.

[D. Strang]

"WalterM140" > wrote
> > He voted for Clinton in '92 over Bush, a WW II
> >aviator
>
> As president, Bush 41 stumbled into an unneccesary war in the Gulf that cost @
> 300 US servicemen their lives. He needed to go.
>
> What I can't figure is how many veterans of combat who post here are oblivious
> to the fact that both Bush presidencies have cost us hundreds of dead service
> people to no good purpose whatsoever.
>
> The roots of this war can be traced easily back to 1990-91. And we now have
> 7,000 + casualties in Iraq and we are less safer here at home, we're
> bankrupting ourselves, the intellgence community is in a shambles, and we've
> distanced ourselves from our best allies.
>
> Bush is the worst president ever and he has to go.

The war in Iraq has been going on since 1980. The United States has been on the
ground in that region since Iraq invaded Iran. We tried to work it diplomatically,
but the world had other interests. The United States and the United Kingdom
invaded Iraq to end the 20 plus years of war.

It is and was a necessary war. We are a fossil fuel economy, and the oil fields of
Iraq, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia will be protected until this country finds an
alternative fuel. Men and Women will die to keep the freedom and the economy
we enjoy.

As a veteran of two major wars, I can say that I support the wars we have in the
Middle East, the far East, and in South America. These wars are important, and
people die in wars. The number of dead are a fraction of those killed on the
highways, and those killed from HIV.

Bush is no worse than any other President.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
>From: (WalterM140)
>Date: 7/12/2004 4:14 AM

>There's been no hint that Kerry's service was anything less than exemplary.

>His fit rep:
>
>"In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG
>(Lieutenant Junior Grade) Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed
>tactics
>and lessons learned in river operations and applied his

>xperience at every
>opportunity. On one occasion while in tactical command of a three boat
>operation his units were taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly
>assessed the situation and ordered his units to turn directly into the
>ambush.

>This decision resulted in routing the attackers with several enemy KIAs.

Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero. And it is driving the neocons nut
especially when we look at the war records of president Cheney and vice
president Bush..


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
>From: (Regnirps)
>Date: 7/11/2004 10:16 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>If I got wounded twice and got two Purple Hearts and a Silver Star I would
>do
>>the same thing. Anyone with a brain in their head would do the same thing.
>
>Sorry, you can only get one Purple Heart.
>
>-- Charlie Springer
>

Totally untrue



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Steve Mellenthin]

>
> Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero. And it is driving the neocons
>nut
>especially when we look at the war records of president Cheney and vice
>president Bush..

Art, it isn't driving anyone nuts save maybe the people who are trying so hard
to convince the rest of the world of the validity of Kerry's service. The
people who have been in and around the military in the last 40 years aren't
being swayed. Until military people are convinced that Kerry's service was
exactly as it is described in his citations, I doubt if anyone who is a
conserative will be swayed in the least or be driven nuts. Few vets have
stepped forward to support Kerry's account of events.

The military is still getting over the Carter and Clinton legacies of neglect
and disrespect and isn't apt to make an exodus towards the Democratic side any
time soon in any event. I have two sons in the miltary and have spent 34 years
combined actiove duty and civilian with the Air Force so I have some insight in
this regard.

The attempt to play up Kerry as a war hero and put down Bush as a deserter has
been nothing more all along than an attempt for the Democrats to gain traction
with the military and it has failed. All it has done is to serve as a rallying
point for people who want to see Bush out rather than to win hearts and minds
of the opposition.

Right now we have a candidate who has a record of fighting terorism and another
candidate whose position on just about everything is either uncertain or
waivering. This is more about the bitter people who feel the election was
"stolen" than it is about candidates. The loss of that election shifted the
power balance in the federal government somewhat, an unacceptable situation to
the Democratic would-be power brokers. Frankly I can't imagine Algore as
President given his behavior since the election

So tell me, what would Kerry do that is so wonderful and how would we as a
people better off. Don't start with feeling unsafe - we have always been
unsafe but just awfully naive in the past about our enemies. We just haven't
wanted to believe we were in danger. Now we know we are and it has nothing to
do with the current president. I am not sure Europe matters as much as some
would like to believe at this juncture either. The future lies with Eastern
Europe and Asia, both of which have generally supported our efforts in Iraq.
The economy? Jobs? They are improving so obviously not a players either.

Maybe someone can convince me otherwise but I am certain this is more over
hatred of Bush over the loss of the last election, Gore won????? People seem
to forget that the overseas absentee ballots for the military were not counted
because of another technicality as obtuse as hanging chads. Those votes could
well have changed the outcome of the popular vote as well.

[Ed Rasimus]

On 11 Jul 2004 23:34:41 GMT, (Bill Shatzer)
wrote:

>Ed Rasimus ) writes:

>>>> And, you really might want to look up the duration of Mr. Gore's
>>>> overseas assignment.
>
>>>Everything I've seen sez it was early January, '71 through late
>>>May, '71 with a scheduled discharge date of August 5, '71.
>
>>>You have information to the contrary?
>
>> Here's a quote: "When they finally came, he would spend less than
>> five months in Vietnam, arriving on Jan. 8, 1971, to write newspaper
>> and magazine articles. He was discharged on May 24, 1971." (The
>> Washington Times National Weekly Edition Nov. 28 - Dec. 4, 1994)
>
>> I said Gore spent 151 days of a year tour. You replied that he only
>> got a two-month curtailment. The difference would be 151 days
>> (Jan-May???) versus 10 months x 30 days or 300 days. I think the
>> Washington Times dates, my statement, and your "Everything I've seen
>> sez" all indicate that your asssertion of a two month curtailment was
>> incorrect. So, we have information to the contrary.
>
>I'm really trying to understand your point, Ed, and I'm apparently
>missing it completely. Gore had, at most, a seven month tour.

Now, read slowly:

1. January
2. February
3. March
4. April
5. May.

That leads me to believe that 5 is not equal to 7 and 7 is very much
less than 12. And two from twelve is ten which is much more than
either five or seven.
>
>Gove's enlistment was up on August 5, 1971. As I don't think they
>were doing "stop-loses" in that era and certainly not for folks
>with journalist MOSs, Gove was NOT going to be in VN after
>early August in any event.

If he shipped to arrive in theater on January 8, then he left CONUS on
January 5. His DEROS would be January 5 of 1972. If he did not have a
full year of retainability, he would not have shipped for the
controlled tour.

Regardless, August is not May.
>
>If he was discharged May 24, he served in VN two months and 12
>days less than the maximum he might have served there.

I don't understand the sort of math required to get 151 days of a 365
day tour and have the difference be a shortfall of 72 days. I come up
with 215 days short.

Frankly, I agree with the contention that it doesn't matter. Gore was
clearly not a component of US combat capability. Or, maybe we just
weren't yet ready to "unleash" him...




Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Ed Rasimus]

On 12 Jul 2004 13:41:05 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

> Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero.

Who by his own admission in sworn Senate testimony was personally
guilty of committing war crimes and atrocities as well as personally
observing them in his role as a commissioned officer yet not doing
anything to stop them.

>And it is driving the neocons nut
>especially when we look at the war records of president Cheney and vice
>president Bush..

You're enamored of a new word, which you continue to use without
regard to its origins or even its meaning. You may continue to use it,
although since I've been a "conservative" since I first registered to
vote in 1963, I don't think there's anything particularly "neo" about
me.

I hereby confer upon you a proper title which you have earned by dint
of your advanced age and heartily embraced political ideology: I dub
thee "paleo-lib". Henceforth, you shall be referred to subsequent to
each incorrect application of neo-con as our resident "paleo-lib."

So let it be written, so let it be done.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Steve Mellenthin]

>I hereby confer upon you a proper title which you have earned by dint
>of your advanced age and heartily embraced political ideology: I dub
>thee "paleo-lib". Henceforth, you shall be referred to subsequent to
>each incorrect application of neo-con as our resident "paleo-lib.

So whqt does that make our generation, Ed? I am not ready just yet to be
called a paleocon.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
>From: Ed Rasimus
>Date: 7/12/2004 7:55 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 12 Jul 2004 13:41:05 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>> Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero.
>
>Who by his own admission in sworn Senate testimony was personally
>guilty of committing war crimes and atrocities as well as personally
>observing them in his role as a commissioned officer yet not doing
>anything to stop them.
>
>>And it is driving the neocons nut
>>especially when we look at the war records of president Cheney and vice
>>president Bush..
>
>You're enamored of a new word, which you continue to use without
>regard to its origins or even its meaning. You may continue to use it,
>although since I've been a "conservative" since I first registered to
>vote in 1963, I don't think there's anything particularly "neo" about
>me.
>
>I hereby confer upon you a proper title which you have earned by dint
>of your advanced age and heartily embraced political ideology: I dub
>thee "paleo-lib". Henceforth, you shall be referred to subsequent to
>each incorrect application of neo-con as our resident "paleo-lib."
>
>So let it be written, so let it be done.
>
>
>Ed Rasimus
>Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
>"When Thunder Rolled"
>Smithsonian Institution Press
>ISBN #1-58834-103-8
>


Anything to take the focus off Bush. Any doversion or distraction. Talk about
anything and anyone, Gore, Clinton,me, but never about Bush. It won't work.
Vice President Bush is the issue, and the only issue.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[George Shirley]

Steve Mellenthin wrote:
>>I hereby confer upon you a proper title which you have earned by dint
>>of your advanced age and heartily embraced political ideology: I dub
>>thee "paleo-lib". Henceforth, you shall be referred to subsequent to
>>each incorrect application of neo-con as our resident "paleo-lib.
>
>
> So whqt does that make our generation, Ed? I am not ready just yet to be
> called a paleocon.

I registered to vote a few years before Ed (1960) and I'm not ready to
be called a paleocon either. Conservative yes, life-long Republican yes,
but (sob), I'm too young to be called paleo anything. <BSEG>

George

[John S. Shinal]

Cub Driver wrote:
>can't see the aileron horn coming at you.

OW ! OW ! OW !

At least you managed not to pour avgas over the fresh wound
when checking the sump.

[Chris Mark]

>From: (WalterM140)

>the intellgence community is in a shambles,

Bush certainly deserves some blame for that, but the real problem set in long
ago, during the Carter administration, with the "Hallowe'en Massacre" under
Carter's CIA chief Stansfield Turner. He executed a purge of almost 3,000
intelligence officers, some 2,000 of them covert agents and paramilitary
specialists. Since then, the CIA has been gelded, involved mostly in
intelligence gathering and analysis.
We really do need a thorough examination of our intelligence services
effectiveness and then decide what we want them to do. A powerful covert
operations program in the OSS/early CIA mode (think Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy;
you know, _real_ Democrats), although anathema to the far left, might be just
what we need in the kind of war we find ourselves in today: Let the damned
terrorists and terrorist-supporting nations be afraid of _our_ terrorists, who
should be a million times better trained, equipped and supported than theirs
ever could be.
We've had an intelligence disaster brewing since Carter (actually probably from
Ford) and we really need to take a look at what we are doing. We used to be
pretty good at influencing foreign events without outright invasions, getting
rid of foreign leaders we didn't like, fomenting coups...whatever it took, from
Iran to Chile. But then we decided that was A Bad Thing. So now, the only
option we have when we want a regime change is a full-scale military invasion,
from Panama to Iraq.
We need to rethink this. That doesn't mean we should just go back to what we
did before with the CIA, et al. We made some stupid mistakes then, from Greece
to the Bay of Pigs. We know what they were and why they happened. We ought to
be able to do it better this time around. In any case, we need a wider range
of options, and greater latitude to act pre-emptively when we see a bad
situation developing.


Chris Mark

[John S. Shinal]

Ed Rasimus wrote:

>On 12 Jul 2004 13:41:05 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>> Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero.
>
>Who by his own admission in sworn Senate testimony was personally
>guilty of committing war crimes and atrocities as well as personally
>observing them in his role as a commissioned officer yet not doing
>anything to stop them.

I'm not convinced JFK would recognize a war crime if it was
giftwrapped and handed to him. He seems to think that use of an M2 is
a war crime.

That being said, I have no problem with his stance on being
against armed conflict. He's seen the elephant up close and personal,
and killed face to face. He was anti-war to begin with, enlisted
anyway and served with what appears to be significant leadership under
some pretty nasty combat. His initial PH, I don't know enough about to
comment on. His later actions, including the famed dismount from the
boat to engage a VC with an RPG seem pretty gutsy and straightforward.
The firsthand accounts from his boat crew on that day were on a major
news show recently (60 minutes ?). I saw no problems in judgement.
Whether his subsequent discharge hinged on the first PH, I don't know.
I wonder about how it compares to someone like Sgt. Kregg Jorgenson
who continued walking point after several PHs and being very badly
shot up...

Kerry's subsequent voting record, especially in the very tense
80s, is something I *do* question. He was against virtually every
major and necessary defense program, including those that turned out
to be excellent purchases (like - the M1 Abrahms tank, the Patriot
missile system, etc). His persistent lack of understanding the
principles of defense programs and infrastructure, and of strategy and
grand strategy is where I find my biggest differences with him.

It's fortunate that he has come down squarely on BOTH sides of
every issue - so I can tell he agrees with me and always has - but I
can't be confident he'll carry out the solutions to these same issues.


>You're enamored of a new word, which you continue to use without
>regard to its origins or even its meaning. You may continue to use it,
>although since I've been a "conservative" since I first registered to
>vote in 1963, I don't think there's anything particularly "neo" about
>me.

A lot of people seem to use "neo" to indicate "similar to but
an extreme form of...". I think I like "paraconservative" better.

[Steve Mellenthin]

>from Greece
>to the Bay of Pigs. We know what they were and why they happened. We ought
>to
>be able to do it better this time around. In any case, we need a wider range
>of options, and greater latitude to act pre-emptively when we see a bad
>situation developing.
>
>
>Chris Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>

Well put Chris. I agree completely.

[B2431]

(John S. Shinal)
>Date: 7/12/2004 11:16 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Cub Driver wrote:
>>can't see the aileron horn coming at you.
>
> OW ! OW ! OW !
>
> At least you managed not to pour avgas over the fresh wound
>when checking the sump.

Never mind that, was the aileron horn damaged?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[ian maclure]

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:31:31 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:

>>> Anyone wounded three times could opt out.
>>
>> Of course if its discovered that any of those were self
>> inflicted as it is alleged that Baby Killer Kerry did...
>
> Seriously now. Have you got even a shred of proof of that?

More proof than you've got

> No wonder this country is going in the toilet if people like you vote.

No, its going into the toilet because they let anybody with a
body a few degrees above room tempterature vote. In some
cases ( and guess which party they have historically been
associated with ) you don't even need to be breathing to vote.
That would certainly explain Algore. He's from the Zombie wing
of the Dimmocrips.

IBM

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[ian maclure]

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:37:10 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:

>>> But Bush skated out on the last two years of his six year commitment, but
>>then
>>> has the gall to attack Senator Kerry's service. That needs to be
>>confronted.
>>>
>>
>>You keep saying that, but you have yet to present any hard evidence of it.
>>
>>
>
> Hard evidence.
>
> What there is no hard evidence of is of Bush's attendance at a drill
> after May, 1972, or a photo of him, or anyone who remembers him.

And why should there be a photo? The military isn't Life Magazine
you know.

> The commanding officer to whom he was support to report in Alabama has said
> categorically that Bush -did-not- report. The unit Bush was assigned to in

And this elderly gentleman's memory from 30 years ago si of course
100% accurate.

> October 1973 is/was in Denver. Bush was at Harvard.

The unit in Denver was reportedly a holding unit for adminsitrative
purposes if I understand correctly. Seems an appropriate place to
put someone who's in grad school. The military does allow that you
know.

> Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment.

Sez you or rather the voices in your head.

IBM

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[ian maclure]

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:33:37 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:

>>> Edwards in 51 YO. That would put him in the 1971 HS class. The
>>> draft ended in 1972.
>>>
>>
>>So, then, what you're saying is he elected not to volunteer for Vietnam.
>
> I am pretty sure the particulars of that will come out.

Oh yes, of that you can be sure.
Edwards would be class of '70 and the draft ended in what '73 not 72.
Yes, indeedy....

IBM

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[ian maclure]

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 03:46:07 -0400, Dweezil Dwarftosser wrote:

[snip]

> Snicker. Most of the folks attending NCSU (Edwards' alma mater)
> are on the five-year-plan for their four-year degrees, today.

Ah.......
Verrrrrry interesting.

IBM

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[B2431]

>From: (WalterM140)

<snip>
>
>No wonder this country is going in the toilet if people like you vote.
>
>Walt

That was uncalled for.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[ian maclure]

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 05:03:25 +0000, Mike Williamson wrote:

> Ian MacLure wrote:

[snip]

> In his defense, I haven't seen any reports that he *intentionally*
> wounded himeself, as is traditionally considered in the
> self-inflicted wound category. Apparently this was more an instance
> of carelessness than intent to injure himself.

Either way it does not reflect well on Miiister Kerry.
Evil or stupidity. Take your pick.
Mind you issuing skimmers real weapons that aren't
controlled by an FT rating is a very large risk IMHO.

IBM

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[Sam Byrams]

All this brings up several things.

One, Bush learned to fly in the military at government expense, did
not complete his assigned commitment, and flew, if I understand ,
fourteen months after UPT and has not flown as PIC or SIC since.
Neither military or elsewise. (Not counting the ride out to the boat
of late.)

Kerry learned to fly not at government expense and apparently has
done so for a number of years.

Now, mind you, I don't like Bush or Kerry as a candidate. Bush was
born on third base and thinks he hit a triple. Kerry is also
apparently something of a rich kid, married Big Ketchup, Ivy League
(yecch), and to top it off is closely associated with a family I
detest and which makes my skin crawl for many reasons (not least of
which the same reason a certain baseball player hated them for every
day of the last 36 years of his life). I can tell you right now I'm
voting third party.

But-be honest-is there any reason I should prefer Bush over Kerry
from an aviation standpoint? Bush, a nonpilot as far as I'm concerned,
has done nothing for aviation in this country. Kerry isn't likely to
either, but how much worse could he be?

The other thing in all this discussion of what balls it takes to
strap on a single engine fighter, is the growing evidence that many
people are willing to pay a lot of money for the privilege. Once
reserved for places like Mojave, the warjet deal is penetrating down
to the backward Midwest. I saw a Sabre and a Hawker Hunter poking
their tails up among the Aztecs and King Airs at the local spam can
patch this week out here. My guess is it costs roughly five hundred
bucks an hour to fly a Sabre. And the civil warjet guys are killing
themselves at a rate that would have embarrassed the Air Force during
the glory days of "Every Man A Tiger".

In and of itself flying fighters is no more heroic than riding a
chopped Harley with the Hells Angels or wreck diving with open circuit
scuba gear. It's what one does, and why, that sometimes might be
heroic. But just climbing up there-if I hit the lottery and could get
the FAA to let me I'd buy-after working my way up a little-the wildest
fighter I could. Simply because it would be-this is 2004, Marilyn's
dead, and she'd be 78 anyway- the biggest ego blast in the world to
taxi up to the ramp at the local FBO in front of all those square-ass
Gulfstream and Lear crews. I know what the statistics are, and I don't
care. I suspect Bush Jr's motives were the same-booze, pussy and
kerosene!












Cub Driver > wrote in message >...
> >I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
> >aircraft"! Were they really?
>
> As Ed Rasimus has said: "Every time you kick the tires and light the
> fire in a single-engine, single-seat Century Series jet, it can kill
> you--all by itself without help from an enemy."
> www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"WalterM140" > wrote in message
...
>
> There's been no hint that Kerry's service was anything less than
exemplary.
>

The following letter appeared in the USA Today "Letters" section on June
25th last, page 8A:



Criticism of Kerry's Purple Heart is just

Retired U.S. army colonel David Hackworth defends presidential
candidate John Kerry's Purple Hearts. He correctly notes that they are
awarded for a wound that necessitates treatment by a medical officer and
that is received in action with an enemy ('The meaning of a Purple Heart,"
The Forum, June 16).

I was the commanding officer to whom Kerry reported his injury on Dec.
3, 1968. I had confirmed that there was no hostile fire that night and that
Kerry had simply wounded himself with an M-79 grenade round he fired too
close. He wanted a Purple Heart, and I refused. Louis Letson, the base
physician, saw Kerry and used tweezers to remove the tiny piece of
shrapnel - about 1 centi*meter in length and 2 millimeters in di*ameter.
Letson also confirmed that the scratch was inflicted with our M-79.

We admire Col. Hackworth, but he, above all people, knows why it is
unac*ceptable to nominate yourself for an award. It compromises the basic
military principle that we survive together. To promote yourself is to
denigrate your team. I hope Col. Hackworth will rethink his characterization
of Kerry's swift-boat comrades as "grousers" passing on "secondhand bilge."
In our case, this is firsthand knowledge, and our integrity is unquestioned.

Kerry orchestrated his way out of Viet*nam and then testified, under
oath, be*fore Congress that we, his comrades, had committed horrible war
crimes. This tes*timony was a lie and slandered honor*able men. We, who were
actually there, believe he is unfit to command our sons and daughters.

Grant Hibbard, retired commander US. Navy, Gulf Breeze, Fla.

Louis Letson, M.D. Retired lieutenant commander Medical Corps, US. Navy
Reserve Scottsboro, Ala.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Regnirps" > wrote in message
...
>
> Sorry, you can only get one Purple Heart.
>

Plenty have several.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"WalterM140" > wrote in message
...
>
> What I can't figure is how many veterans of combat who post here are
oblivious
> to the fact that both Bush presidencies have cost us hundreds of dead
service
> people to no good purpose whatsoever.
>

Actually, there is far more than that that you cannot figure!

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"WalterM140" > wrote in message
...
>
> Hard evidence.
>
> What there is no hard evidence of is of Bush's attendance at a drill after
May,
> 1972, or a photo of him, or anyone who remembers him.
>

What there is no hard evidence of is Bush being AWOL.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"WalterM140" > wrote in message
...
> >
> > Of course if its discovered that any of those were self
> > inflicted as it is alleged that Baby Killer Kerry did...
>
> Seriously now. Have you got even a shred of proof of that?
>

The following letter appeared in the USA Today "Letters" section on June
25th last, page 8A:



Criticism of Kerry's Purple Heart is just

Retired U.S. army colonel David Hackworth defends presidential
candidate John Kerry's Purple Hearts. He correctly notes that they are
awarded for a wound that necessitates treatment by a medical officer and
that is received in action with an enemy ('The meaning of a Purple Heart,"
The Forum, June 16).

I was the commanding officer to whom Kerry reported his injury on Dec.
3, 1968. I had confirmed that there was no hostile fire that night and that
Kerry had simply wounded himself with an M-79 grenade round he fired too
close. He wanted a Purple Heart, and I refused. Louis Letson, the base
physician, saw Kerry and used tweezers to remove the tiny piece of
shrapnel - about 1 centi*meter in length and 2 millimeters in di*ameter.
Letson also confirmed that the scratch was inflicted with our M-79.

We admire Col. Hackworth, but he, above all people, knows why it is
unac*ceptable to nominate yourself for an award. It compromises the basic
military principle that we survive together. To promote yourself is to
denigrate your team. I hope Col. Hackworth will rethink his characterization
of Kerry's swift-boat comrades as "grousers" passing on "secondhand bilge."
In our case, this is firsthand knowledge, and our integrity is unquestioned.

Kerry orchestrated his way out of Viet*nam and then testified, under
oath, be*fore Congress that we, his comrades, had committed horrible war
crimes. This tes*timony was a lie and slandered honor*able men. We, who were
actually there, believe he is unfit to command our sons and daughters.

Grant Hibbard, retired commander US. Navy, Gulf Breeze, Fla.

Louis Letson, M.D. Retired lieutenant commander Medical Corps, US. Navy
Reserve Scottsboro, Ala.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero. And it is driving the neocons
nut
> especially when we look at the war records of president Cheney and vice
> president Bush..
>

Comparing the liberal's attitudes towards candidates Kerry and Clinton
illustrates the utter hypocrisy of the left.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
>
> If he shipped to arrive in theater on January 8, then he left CONUS on
> January 5. His DEROS would be January 5 of 1972. If he did not have a
> full year of retainability, he would not have shipped for the
> controlled tour.
>

Why not? Isn't the premise that he was given special treatment?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> Anything to take the focus off Bush. Any doversion or distraction. Talk
about
> anything and anyone, Gore, Clinton,me, but never about Bush. It won't
work.
> Vice President Bush is the issue, and the only issue.
>

Why isn't Kerry the issue?

[kontiki]

Sam Byrams wrote:
> All this brings up several things.

-clip-

You have to fight your tendency to view a presidential candidate
from the standpoint of aviation. Reagan was not pilot by any measure
but I would classify Kerry as farther away from Reagan (by any number
of measures) than Bush. You can't compare apples and oranges in any
meaningful way.

Bush is more of a statesman that Kerry but not much of one compared
to Teddy Roosevelt or Ronald Reagan. It's all relative.... as for me,
I'll be voting for the lesser of two evils.

[Foster]

Or, think of it this way. Bush is an incompetent moron; Kerry isn't.
Bush's incompetence and ego got us into a war we shouldn't be in; Kerry
didn't.

etc., etc., etc.

kontiki wrote:
>
> Sam Byrams wrote:
>
>> All this brings up several things.
>
>
> -clip-
>
> You have to fight your tendency to view a presidential candidate
> from the standpoint of aviation. Reagan was not pilot by any measure
> but I would classify Kerry as farther away from Reagan (by any number
> of measures) than Bush. You can't compare apples and oranges in any
> meaningful way.
>
> Bush is more of a statesman that Kerry but not much of one compared
> to Teddy Roosevelt or Ronald Reagan. It's all relative.... as for me,
> I'll be voting for the lesser of two evils.
>

[Regnirps]

"Steven P. McNicoll"

>> Sorry, you can only get one Purple Heart.

>Plenty have several.

Have you ever seen more than one? The public thinks of the Purple Heart as the
medal, which you can get one of (well, you can buy more). After that,
additional awards can be added in the form of embellishments if the recipient
chooses to stick them on. I have one in the drawer here. It is unadorned but
represents a knifing
while chasing Pancho Villa, a bayonette wound from the scond batle of the Marne
and a great toe shot off in the Chateu Therry (spelling?) campaign, among
ohers. No it wasn't me. They may have still been using sails when I joined the
Navy, but I never knew Pershing.

The requirements for the award were ammended sometime after WWI but I don't
recall when, just that I have read them and that a nick in the skin that may
need a bandaid qualifies if the circumstances are right.

-- Charlie Springer

[NW_PILOT]

And you think we are going to have another presidential election in this
country???? I think that bush will stop the election and I have said the
same thing in the past prior to the news reports on how he wants to know how
to delay an election incase of a terrorist attack. If there is an election
this year I will be very surprised. They have already taken away 45% of our
arms so we could not fight an unruly government if bush dose what I think he
is going to do. But I could be wrong.



"Sam Byrams" > wrote in message
om...
> All this brings up several things.
>
> One, Bush learned to fly in the military at government expense, did
> not complete his assigned commitment, and flew, if I understand ,
> fourteen months after UPT and has not flown as PIC or SIC since.
> Neither military or elsewise. (Not counting the ride out to the boat
> of late.)
>
> Kerry learned to fly not at government expense and apparently has
> done so for a number of years.
>
> Now, mind you, I don't like Bush or Kerry as a candidate. Bush was
> born on third base and thinks he hit a triple. Kerry is also
> apparently something of a rich kid, married Big Ketchup, Ivy League
> (yecch), and to top it off is closely associated with a family I
> detest and which makes my skin crawl for many reasons (not least of
> which the same reason a certain baseball player hated them for every
> day of the last 36 years of his life). I can tell you right now I'm
> voting third party.
>
> But-be honest-is there any reason I should prefer Bush over Kerry
> from an aviation standpoint? Bush, a nonpilot as far as I'm concerned,
> has done nothing for aviation in this country. Kerry isn't likely to
> either, but how much worse could he be?
>
> The other thing in all this discussion of what balls it takes to
> strap on a single engine fighter, is the growing evidence that many
> people are willing to pay a lot of money for the privilege. Once
> reserved for places like Mojave, the warjet deal is penetrating down
> to the backward Midwest. I saw a Sabre and a Hawker Hunter poking
> their tails up among the Aztecs and King Airs at the local spam can
> patch this week out here. My guess is it costs roughly five hundred
> bucks an hour to fly a Sabre. And the civil warjet guys are killing
> themselves at a rate that would have embarrassed the Air Force during
> the glory days of "Every Man A Tiger".
>
> In and of itself flying fighters is no more heroic than riding a
> chopped Harley with the Hells Angels or wreck diving with open circuit
> scuba gear. It's what one does, and why, that sometimes might be
> heroic. But just climbing up there-if I hit the lottery and could get
> the FAA to let me I'd buy-after working my way up a little-the wildest
> fighter I could. Simply because it would be-this is 2004, Marilyn's
> dead, and she'd be 78 anyway- the biggest ego blast in the world to
> taxi up to the ramp at the local FBO in front of all those square-ass
> Gulfstream and Lear crews. I know what the statistics are, and I don't
> care. I suspect Bush Jr's motives were the same-booze, pussy and
> kerosene!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Cub Driver > wrote in message
>...
> > >I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
> > >aircraft"! Were they really?
> >
> > As Ed Rasimus has said: "Every time you kick the tires and light the
> > fire in a single-engine, single-seat Century Series jet, it can kill
> > you--all by itself without help from an enemy."
> > www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm
> >

[C J Campbell]

Speaking strictly from an aviation standpoint, I don't think that either
Bush or Kerry is especially good for GA.

The Republican tax incentives for new plane purchases have been very good,
but they do have the side effect of depressing the prices of used airplanes.
You can expect these tax incentives to disappear under either
administration, although the Republicans are talking about extending them
one more year.

Estate taxes are another issue. Federal estate taxes have been reduced, at
least temporarily, but many states have adopted estate taxes of their own to
grab this money. Of course, the states will not repeal these taxes when the
federal tax goes back up. Kerry would make matters worse by repealing the
reductions immediately. This means that if you own an aviation business your
heirs will probably be forced to sell the business instead of continuing to
operate it.

Not that it matters all that much. The government is going to take about
half what you earn, no matter how you slice it. Income and estate taxes are
small fish. Most people have no idea how big a bite that Social Security,
payroll taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, utility taxes, and all the other
hidden little taxes that they pay all up and down the distribution system
really adds up to. It doesn't matter what your income is. You end up giving
half of it to the government. The Republicans and Democrats only keep the
income tax around so that they can distract your attention from what you are
really paying. It gives them something to talk about during election years
and gives them the opportunity to pretend that there is really a difference
between the two parties.

Despite claims by some here to the contrary, both Bush and Kerry are wealthy
elitists and they both would have done pretty much the same thing in Iraq.
Bush is not nearly as stupid as painted by the Kerry camp and Kerry is not
nearly as bright. In fact, he may not be any smarter than Bush at all.
Neither is Kerry as well liked in Europe as portrayed. In the end, he would
have gone into Iraq alone, just like Bush, and the Republicans would be
having fits over it, just like the Democrats now. It was the same in
Vietnam. Johnson won the election by portraying Goldwater as a reckless war
hawk, but in the end he did everything Goldwater said he would do, and more.

The real reason that voter turnout is so low in this country is that most
people know that their vote doesn't make much difference one way or the
other.

[C J Campbell]

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...
> And you think we are going to have another presidential election in this
> country???? I think that bush

Replace "Bush" with "Clinton" and you have a re-run of what many Republicans
were saying during the last election.

[Ed Rasimus]

On 12 Jul 2004 12:12:07 -0700, (Sam Byrams)
wrote:

>All this brings up several things.
>
> One, Bush learned to fly in the military at government expense, did
>not complete his assigned commitment, and flew, if I understand ,
>fourteen months after UPT and has not flown as PIC or SIC since.
>Neither military or elsewise. (Not counting the ride out to the boat
>of late.)

Well, your inclusion of the "if I understand" is the bailout clause
for spouting a lot of crap. Learning to fly in the military at
government expense is quite simply the best way to get the best
aviation training in the world. Qualifying after UPT in an operational
single-seat jet takes, on average another eight to ten months and then
becoming operationally ready takes another six months.

Whether one flies as PIC again after completion of military service is
totally irrelevant. I have not flown as PIC or in any level of control
of an aircraft since my retirement from active duty in 1987. Doesn't
mean crap.
>
> Kerry learned to fly not at government expense and apparently has
>done so for a number of years.

I initially learned to fly J-3 Cubs, PA-22 Colts and PA-18 Super Cubs
at my own expense. I can't afford to fly at my own expense today
because I married a nice women who wasn't the recipient of fortune.
Doesn't mean crap.
>
> Now, mind you, I don't like Bush or Kerry as a candidate. Bush was
>born on third base and thinks he hit a triple. Kerry is also
>apparently something of a rich kid, married Big Ketchup, Ivy League
>(yecch), and to top it off is closely associated with a family I
>detest and which makes my skin crawl for many reasons (not least of
>which the same reason a certain baseball player hated them for every
>day of the last 36 years of his life). I can tell you right now I'm
>voting third party.

Voting third party is your privilege. But, you should note that the
government will continue despite your effective lack of participation.
Doesn't mean crap.
>
> But-be honest-is there any reason I should prefer Bush over Kerry
>from an aviation standpoint? Bush, a nonpilot as far as I'm concerned,
>has done nothing for aviation in this country. Kerry isn't likely to
>either, but how much worse could he be?

Voting from an "aviation standpoint" doesn't make any sense at all.
Voting from a principles, performance, and ideological standpoint
does. How much worse could he be? Gimme a break.
>
> The other thing in all this discussion of what balls it takes to
>strap on a single engine fighter, is the growing evidence that many
>people are willing to pay a lot of money for the privilege.

Spending a lot of money for a once-in-a-lifetime thrill ride is a
whole lot different than strapping on a single-seat, single engine
fighter. Flying one operationally is well beyond just flying one.

> Once
>reserved for places like Mojave, the warjet deal is penetrating down
>to the backward Midwest. I saw a Sabre and a Hawker Hunter poking
>their tails up among the Aztecs and King Airs at the local spam can
>patch this week out here. My guess is it costs roughly five hundred
>bucks an hour to fly a Sabre.

Dr. Joe Bagadonutz, the wealthy proctologist buys a Mustang or even a
MiG-17 and successfully takes off and lands. He isn't, by any stretch
of the imagination, a fighter pilot. He isn't really, even that lesser
level, a pilot who flies fighters. He's simply an accident waiting to
happen.


>And the civil warjet guys are killing
>themselves at a rate that would have embarrassed the Air Force during
>the glory days of "Every Man A Tiger".

Excuse me, but you obviously haven't read "Every Man A Tiger." It's
about Chuck Horner as the Air Component Commander of Desert Storm. The
lead-in chapters about Gen. Horner's early days flying F-105s in
Rolling Thunder are anything but glory days.
>
> In and of itself flying fighters is no more heroic than riding a
>chopped Harley with the Hells Angels or wreck diving with open circuit
>scuba gear. It's what one does, and why, that sometimes might be
>heroic.

Any scumbag can ride a Harley. If he's particularly disgusting, he can
become a member of a club. That's a long way from flying fighters
operationally and shouldn't, by any stretch be compared.


> But just climbing up there-if I hit the lottery and could get
>the FAA to let me I'd buy-after working my way up a little-the wildest
>fighter I could. Simply because it would be-this is 2004, Marilyn's
>dead, and she'd be 78 anyway- the biggest ego blast in the world to
>taxi up to the ramp at the local FBO in front of all those square-ass
>Gulfstream and Lear crews.

No, asshole. The biggest ego blast in the world is walking away from
the jet, sweat-soaked and drained, looking back at the bird and
saying, "**** you. You could have killed me, but you didn't." And,
knowing that you do something every day that most other humans don't
even begin to conceive of. "Those square-ass Gulfstream and Lear
crews" aren't even part of the equation.

>I know what the statistics are, and I don't
>care. I suspect Bush Jr's motives were the same-booze, pussy and
>kerosene!

And, who wouldn't be motivated by that?

Works for me.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[kontiki]

Kerry is a PX hero and does a poor immitation of Bill Clinton.

Foster wrote:

> Or, think of it this way. Bush is an incompetent moron; Kerry isn't.
> Bush's incompetence and ego got us into a war we shouldn't be in; Kerry
> didn't.
>
> etc., etc., etc.
>

[kontiki]

Very well stated Sir. I could distill it down to its simplest terms:

The Demos (lead by Kerry) are running towards socialism while the
Repubs (lead by Bush) are jogging towards the same ultimate destination.

[C J Campbell]

"Foster" > wrote in message
...
> Or, think of it this way. Bush is an incompetent moron; Kerry isn't.
> Bush's incompetence and ego got us into a war we shouldn't be in; Kerry
> didn't.

Actually, Kerry has not made any such claims and for good reason: he has
gone on record too many times saying that Bush fooled him on various issues.
Kerry would probably just as soon his supporters did not make such a big
argument that Bush is stupid; it makes Kerry look even dumber than Bush. It
makes his supporters look even dumber than that, but of course they are too
stupid to realize it. :-)

[D. Strang]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero.

But he said he murdered innocent women and children.

> And it is driving the neocons nut

He doesn't drive me anywhere, he only exists. Plus, there are only true conservatives
on this forum. There are no neo or paleo here, just good conservatives and worthless
radicals (welfare) types.

> especially when we look at the war records of president Cheney and vice
> president Bush..

They, like the majority of other Americans have never been to war, thus can have
no "war" record.

[Jim Weir]

A British newscaster on BBC did it much simpler in trying to explain the
differences in our political parties:

The Republicans are very much like our...Conservatives.
The Democrats are very much like our...Conservatives.


Jim




kontiki >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->Very well stated Sir. I could distill it down to its simplest terms:
->
->The Demos (lead by Kerry) are running towards socialism while the
->Repubs (lead by Bush) are jogging towards the same ultimate destination.
->



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[B2431]

>From: (Regnirps)
>Date: 7/12/2004 3:17 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Steven P. McNicoll"
>
>>> Sorry, you can only get one Purple Heart.
>
>>Plenty have several.
>
>Have you ever seen more than one? The public thinks of the Purple Heart as
>the
>medal, which you can get one of (well, you can buy more). After that,
>additional awards can be added in the form of embellishments if the recipient
>chooses to stick them on.

The "embellishments" are REQUIRED. They are called "devices." If I were still
active duty an was not wearing the V on my bronze star or oakleaves on my
purple heart, good conduct, longevity etc, stars on my national defense and SEA
sevice medal I would have been out of uniform.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Mike Marron]

>"Sam Byrams" > wrote:

>All this brings up several things.

>One, Bush learned to fly in the military at government expense, did
>not complete his assigned commitment, and flew, if I understand ,
>fourteen months after UPT and has not flown as PIC or SIC since.
>Neither military or elsewise. (Not counting the ride out to the boat
>of late.)

>Kerry learned to fly not at government expense and apparently has
>done so for a number of years.

>Now, mind you, I don't like Bush or Kerry as a candidate. Bush was
>born on third base and thinks he hit a triple. Kerry is also
>apparently something of a rich kid, married Big Ketchup, Ivy League
>(yecch), and to top it off is closely associated with a family I
>detest and which makes my skin crawl for many reasons (not least of
>which the same reason a certain baseball player hated them for every
>day of the last 36 years of his life). I can tell you right now I'm
>voting third party.

>But-be honest-is there any reason I should prefer Bush over Kerry
>from an aviation standpoint? Bush, a nonpilot as far as I'm concerned,
>has done nothing for aviation in this country. Kerry isn't likely to
>either, but how much worse could he be?

>The other thing in all this discussion of what balls it takes to
>strap on a single engine fighter, is the growing evidence that many
>people are willing to pay a lot of money for the privilege. Once
>reserved for places like Mojave, the warjet deal is penetrating down
>to the backward Midwest. I saw a Sabre and a Hawker Hunter poking
>their tails up among the Aztecs and King Airs at the local spam can
>patch this week out here. My guess is it costs roughly five hundred
>bucks an hour to fly a Sabre. And the civil warjet guys are killing
>themselves at a rate that would have embarrassed the Air Force during
>the glory days of "Every Man A Tiger".

>In and of itself flying fighters is no more heroic than riding a
>chopped Harley with the Hells Angels or wreck diving with open circuit
>scuba gear. It's what one does, and why, that sometimes might be
>heroic. But just climbing up there-if I hit the lottery and could get
>the FAA to let me I'd buy-after working my way up a little-the wildest
>fighter I could. Simply because it would be-this is 2004, Marilyn's
>dead, and she'd be 78 anyway- the biggest ego blast in the world to
>taxi up to the ramp at the local FBO in front of all those square-ass
>Gulfstream and Lear crews. I know what the statistics are, and I don't
>care. I suspect Bush Jr's motives were the same-booze, pussy and
>kerosene!

All good points but remember what Ed Rasimus says; "there are
fighter pilots and there are pilots who fly fighters." Back in the
late 50's and early 60's my Dad flew the F-102 and versus
Dubya 1v1 both flying the -102 undoubtedly my ol' man would
just as soon expose Junior as a foolish ****** as wake up in the
morning.

Regarding your question, "Is there any reason I should prefer
Bush over Kerry from an aviation standpoint?" The answer seems
obvious to me in view of the recovering (post 9/11) airline industry.

As far as GA is concerned, for guys like you, me and the vast
majority of vets on this NG who are interested in flying airplanes
that are affordable and readily available -- I'm not aware of anything
specific that Bush has done for the GA community.

However, I do know that in 2001 Dubya signed into law H.R. 727,
a bill that transfered jurisdiction over low-speed electric bikes from
the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) to the
Consumer Product Safety Commission, which reduced the cost and
regulatory burdens of electric-powered bicycles.

Conversely, Kerry and his liberal ilk would have wanted to regulate
and tax them into oblivion like Canada does which is absurd since
these are bicycles and should be regulated as bicycles.

(BTW, I happen to own an Iacocca e-bike and think it's great. I also
fly my own experimental aircraft about every other day.)

In other words, I'm all for any politician who signs a law that
represents a tangible step forward for efficient, affordable
transportation technologies (such as general aviation aircraft,
electric bikes, etc.) while promoting less government, less
taxes, etc.

Thus, Dubya has my vote once again in November.