Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.

[ArtKramr]

They had no golf in Vietnam.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[BUFDRVR]

ArtKramr wrote:

>They had no golf in Vietnam.

I realize you're now addicted to political trolling Art, but you're starting
out (not unlike many trolls) with factually incorrect information. SVN did have
Golf Courses.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Bob McKellar]

BUFDRVR wrote:

> ArtKramr wrote:
>
> >They had no golf in Vietnam.
>
> I realize you're now addicted to political trolling Art, but you're starting
> out (not unlike many trolls) with factually incorrect information. SVN did have
> Golf Courses.
>
> BUFDRVR
>
> "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
> everyone on Bear Creek"

There must have been golf courses there, since the USAF had bases there.

Bob McKellar

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 7/10/2004 10:09 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>
>>They had no golf in Vietnam.
>
>I realize you're now addicted to political trolling Art, but you're starting
>out (not unlike many trolls) with factually incorrect information. SVN did
>have
>Golf Courses.
>
>
>BUFDRVR


Mea culpa. Mea culpa. Now if Bush knew about those golf courses......


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Scott Ferrin]

On 10 Jul 2004 16:50:41 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

>They had no golf in Vietnam.


Lots of pilots who flew F-102s didn't fly over Vietnam. I guess none
of them are as manly as ArtKramer huh?



>
>
>Arthur Kramer
>344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Mike Williamson]

ArtKramr wrote:
>>
>>I realize you're now addicted to political trolling Art, but you're starting
>>out (not unlike many trolls) with factually incorrect information. SVN did
>>have
>>Golf Courses.
>>
>>
>>BUFDRVR
>
>
>
> Mea culpa. Mea culpa. Now if Bush knew about those golf courses......
>
>
> Arthur Kramer

Of course he knew about the Golf Courses- he volunteered for
deployment to Vietnam, as you have known for some time, as it came
up several times in the newspapers, these forums, and even
television news.

Mike Williamson

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: Scott Ferrin
>Date: 7/10/2004 1:15 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 10 Jul 2004 16:50:41 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>They had no golf in Vietnam.
>
>
>Lots of pilots who flew F-102s didn't fly over Vietnam. I guess none
>of them are as manly as ArtKramer huh?
>

You said that. Not me.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Lawrence Dillard]

Newspaper report from Friday's Atlanta Journal-Constitution indicates that
the records which could have cleared up when and for what GW Bush was paid
during his enlistment have been inadvertently destroyed. Alas.

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> They had no golf in Vietnam.
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[WalterM140]

> Of course he knew about the Golf Courses- he volunteered for
>deployment to Vietnam, as you have known for some time, as it came
>up several times in the newspapers, these forums, and even
>television news.

No. At least on one occasion Bush declined to volunteer for Viet Nam.


Here is the link that proves this:

http://awolbush.com/images/kerr_bush_nam.gif

Have you some proof that Bush ever changed this?



Walt

[WalterM140]

>> Mea culpa. Mea culpa. Now if Bush knew about those golf courses......
>
> He tried to get into a program that could have landed hime near
> one of them. He didn't have enough stick time it seems.
>

The only thing I've seen is that Bush declined to volunteer for Viet Nam.

A link:

http://awolbush.com/images/kerr_bush_nam.gif


Walt

[Smartace11]

>The only thing I've seen is that Bush declined to volunteer for Viet Nam.

Your point is? I don't think many of us actually did. Some did to get out of
a tour in places like Korea.

[Smartace11]

>Newspaper report from Friday's Atlanta Journal-Constitution indicates that
>the records which could have cleared up when and for what GW Bush was paid
>during his enlistment have been inadvertently destroyed. Alas.

Must be in the same place that the Hildebeast Clinton's various files ended up.

[WalterM140]

>>The only thing I've seen is that Bush declined to volunteer for Viet Nam.
>
>Your point is? I don't think many of us actually did. Some did to get out
>of
>a tour in places like Korea.
>

The point is that someone said that Bush volunteered for Viet Nam, but there is
a document extant that shows he -did-not- volunteer for overseas assignment at
one point.

If he did later change his mind, I'd be glad to see it.

Walt

[Smartace11]

>The point is that someone said that Bush volunteered for Viet Nam, but there
>is
>a document extant that shows he -did-not- volunteer for overseas assignment
>at
>one point.
>

Why is that a point worth debating? I joined the AF in 1968,flew F-4s, didn't
volunteer, and didn't end up in SEA until 1972. Wasn't avoiding it, just
didn't see that it made any difference one way or the other.

A friend in the old Air Defence Command did volunteer starting in 1967, flew
F-101, F-102, and F-4s and was never sent until 1972.

You guys are trying to put way too much spin in this. GWB followed a path that
others that I knew did either by choice, political influence, or luck of the
draw. Algore clearly did the same with his assignment as a press officer. A
two star I worked for did his tour as a navigator (!!) on a T-39 Learjet (c/s
Scatback) that ferried between Clark Air Base Phillipines, Saigon, and the Thai
bases. Flying a Deuce was far more dangerous in any circumstances.

To me the only thing that is totally unfathomable is why a decorated Vietnam
vet would hook up with the likes of Jane Fonda and her crowd to protest the war
unless it was to gain political traction under a Republican president.

Steve Mellenthin
2000 hrs F-4C/D/E/RF
270 Missions SEA 72-74
Repubican

[Mike Williamson]

WalterM140 wrote:
>>Of course he knew about the Golf Courses- he volunteered for
>>deployment to Vietnam, as you have known for some time, as it came
>>up several times in the newspapers, these forums, and even
>>television news.
>
>
> No. At least on one occasion Bush declined to volunteer for Viet Nam.
>
>
> Here is the link that proves this:
>
> http://awolbush.com/images/kerr_bush_nam.gif
>
> Have you some proof that Bush ever changed this?
>
>
>
> Walt

Since that form doesn't have a date, and according to the first
section, deals with being recalled for non-flying duty, it appears
to deal with inactive duty after going off active duty, and is
therefore irrelevant to the discussion. Perhaps the (obviously
objective) owner of the site "awolbush.com" would provide the rest
of the form so that we might see the actual context of the
form?

I'll not hold my breath waiting, if you don't mind...

The volunteering for deployment in the F-102 was covered quite
some time ago- during the 2000 Presidential campaign, as I recall..

Mike

[WalterM140]

>>The point is that someone said that Bush volunteered for Viet Nam, but there
>>is
>>a document extant that shows he -did-not- volunteer for overseas assignment
>>at
>>one point.
>>
>
>Why is that a point worth debating?

It seems to be a false statement.

Walt

[Mike Williamson]

Smartace11 wrote:


>
> You guys are trying to put way too much spin in this. GWB followed a path that
> others that I knew did either by choice, political influence, or luck of the
> draw. Algore clearly did the same with his assignment as a press officer. A
> two star I worked for did his tour as a navigator (!!) on a T-39 Learjet (c/s
> Scatback) that ferried between Clark Air Base Phillipines, Saigon, and the Thai
> bases. Flying a Deuce was far more dangerous in any circumstances.


Minor nit-pick. The (C)T-39 was the Sabreliner. Learjets didn't come
into AF service until the 1980's, replacing the Sabreliner in many
instances. The Navy still flies T-39s.

Mike Williamson

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Smartace11" > wrote in message
...
>
> You guys are trying to put way too much spin in this. GWB followed a
> path that others that I knew did either by choice, political influence, or
> luck of the draw. Algore clearly did the same with his assignment as a
> press officer.
>

Gore was not an officer.


>
> A two star I worked for did his tour as a navigator (!!) on a T-39 Learjet
(c/s
> Scatback) that ferried between Clark Air Base Phillipines, Saigon, and the
Thai
> bases.
>

T-39 Sabreliner.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"WalterM140" > wrote in message
...
>
> The only thing I've seen is that Bush declined to volunteer for Viet Nam.
>
> A link:
>
> http://awolbush.com/images/kerr_bush_nam.gif
>

Your link does not say that.

[Steve Mellenthin]

> Minor nit-pick. The (C)T-39 was the Sabreliner. Learjets didn't come
>into AF service until the 1980's, replacing the Sabreliner in many
>instances. The Navy still flies T-39s.

You're right. I misspoke in trying to relate to the youngsters here what a
T-39 was.

[Steve Mellenthin]

>Algore clearly did the same with his assignment as a
>> press officer.
>>
>
>Gore was not an officer.

Press guy then. Public information guy, whatever. Armed with a camera and
notebook.

[Jack]

Steve Mellenthin wrote:

>>Gore was not an officer.
>
>
> Press guy then. Public information guy, whatever. Armed with a camera and
> notebook.

And body guard.


--
Jack

"Cave ab homine unius libri"

[WalterM140]

>"WalterM140" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> The only thing I've seen is that Bush declined to volunteer for Viet Nam.
>>
>> A link:
>>
>> http://awolbush.com/images/kerr_bush_nam.gif
>>
>
>Your link does not say that.

When I clicked the link and scrolled down it shows a box outlined in red that
says:

"I do/do not volunteer for overseas service."

Bush checked "Do not".

Walt

[WalterM140]

>> No. At least on one occasion Bush declined to volunteer for Viet Nam.
>>
>>
>> Here is the link that proves this:
>>
>> http://awolbush.com/images/kerr_bush_nam.gif
>>
>> Have you some proof that Bush ever changed this?
>>
>>
>>
>> Walt
>
> Since that form doesn't have a date, and according to the first
>section, deals with being recalled for non-flying duty, it appears
>to deal with inactive duty after going off active duty, and is
>therefore irrelevant to the discussion. Perhaps the (obviously
>objective) owner of the site "awolbush.com" would provide the rest
>of the form so that we might see the actual context of the
>form?
>

It shows that on at least one occasion, Bush declined to volunteer for overseas
service.

It he changed that later, I'd be glad of some proof.


Walt

[WalterM140]

>>> No. At least on one occasion Bush declined to volunteer for Viet Nam.
>>>
>>>
>>> Here is the link that proves this:
>>>
>>> http://awolbush.com/images/kerr_bush_nam.gif
>>>
>>> Have you some proof that Bush ever changed this?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Walt
>>
>> Since that form doesn't have a date,

See this link that shows that Bush declined to volunteer for overseas duty in
February, 1968:

http://www.motherjones.com/news/update/2004/02/02_400.html


Walt

[D. Strang]

"WalterM140" > wrote
> >"WalterM140" > wrote
> >>
> >> The only thing I've seen is that Bush declined to volunteer for Viet Nam.
> >>
> >> A link:
> >>
> >> http://awolbush.com/images/kerr_bush_nam.gif
> >>
> >
> >Your link does not say that.
>
> When I clicked the link and scrolled down it shows a box outlined in red that
> says:
>
> "I do/do not volunteer for overseas service."
>
> Bush checked "Do not".

That has nothing to do with "Vietnam." Maybe he didn't want to go to Korea,
or Germany. I never ever volunteered for overseas. It came fast enough on its
own. If you look at my military records (dream sheets) they will all say I was
a non-volunteer for overseas. Yet I served 8 years overseas.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: Mike Williamson
>Date: 7/11/2004 7:57 AM Pac

> Since that form doesn't have a date, and according to the first
>section, deals with being recalled for non-flying duty, it appears
>to deal with inactive duty after going off active duty, and is
>therefore irrelevant to the discussion. Perhaps the (obviously
>objective) owner of the site "awolbush.com" would provide the rest
>of the form so that we might see the actual context of the
>form?
>
> I'll not hold my breath waiting, if you don't mind...
>
> The volunteering for deployment in the F-102 was covered quite
>some time ago- during the 2000 Presidential campaign, as I recall..
>
>Mike
>


The man didn't want to fight. End of story.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: (WalterM140)
>Date: 7/11/2004 8:56 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>> No. At least on one occasion Bush declined to volunteer for Viet Nam.
>>>
>>>
>>> Here is the link that proves this:
>>>
>>> http://awolbush.com/images/kerr_bush_nam.gif
>>>
>>> Have you some proof that Bush ever changed this?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Walt
>>
>> Since that form doesn't have a date, and according to the first
>>section, deals with being recalled for non-flying duty, it appears
>>to deal with inactive duty after going off active duty, and is
>>therefore irrelevant to the discussion. Perhaps the (obviously
>>objective) owner of the site "awolbush.com" would provide the rest
>>of the form so that we might see the actual context of the
>>form?
>>
>
>It shows that on at least one occasion, Bush declined to volunteer for
>overseas
>service.
>
>It he changed that later, I'd be glad of some proof.
>
>
>Walt
>

Don't hold your breath.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Mike Marron]

(ArtKramr) wrote:
>>Mike Williamson wrote:

>>The volunteering for deployment in the F-102 was covered quite
>>some time ago- during the 2000 Presidential campaign, as I recall..

>The man didn't want to fight. End of story.

All that truly matters is that the man wants to fight NOW. End of
story.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: (Smartace11)

>Steve Mellenthin
>2000 hrs F-4C/D/E/RF
>270 Missions SEA 72-74
>Repubican

Wow. More missions than me and Ed combined. You are now head warrior of this
NG. Congrats.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Steve Mellenthin]

>The man didn't want to fight. End of story.
>
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

Art, I am pretty sure that almost non of us of tha era wanted to fight. I am
also sure that few of your generation really wanted to either. But we all
served. I am just as certain that some of your generation were more than
willing to serve in combat but didn't end up there. My dad volunteered for but
was washed out of pilot training because of color blindness. He ended up
spending the war at Laredo TX working on high altitude research for the the
B-29 development.

[Mike Marron]

> (ArtKramr) wrote:

>Wow. More missions than me and Ed combined. You are now head warrior of this
>NG. Congrats.

You're living proof that growing old doesn't necessary mean growing
up.

[Steve Mellenthin]

>Wow. More missions than me and Ed combined. You are now head warrior of this
>NG. Congrats.

Thanks but I really thought Ed had nearly as many as I did.and he probably has
more over RP6. I think I had 40 or so over Pack 6 and something like 80 over
NVN. Been a long while since I counted.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: (Steve Mellenthin)
>Date: 7/11/2004 9:32 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>The man didn't want to fight. End of story.
>>
>>
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>
>Art, I am pretty sure that almost non of us of tha era wanted to fight. I am
>also sure that few of your generation really wanted to either. But we all
>served. I am just as certain that some of your generation were more than
>willing to serve in combat but didn't end up there. My dad volunteered for
>but
>was washed out of pilot training because of color blindness. He ended up
>spending the war at Laredo TX working on high altitude research for the the
>B-29 development.
>
>

I can't speak for a generation, but in 1942 my greatest fear was that the war
would end before I got there and I would miss the adventure of a lifetime. And
many of us felt exactly that way back then. It didn't end and I got there. But
I was very young and idealistic back then..But if I had it to do it all over
again, I would do it the same way.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: (Steve Mellenthin)
>Date: 7/11/2004 9:42 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Wow. More missions than me and Ed combined. You are now head warrior of this
>>NG. Congrats.
>
>Thanks but I really thought Ed had nearly as many as I did.and he probably
>has
>more over RP6. I think I had 40 or so over Pack 6 and something like 80 over
>NVN. Been a long while since I counted.
>

I think Ed said he had 100 and I flew 50. So you still lead the pack. Well
done.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Steve Mellenthin]

>When I clicked the link and scrolled down it shows a box outlined in red that
>says:
>
>"I do/do not volunteer for overseas service."
>
>Bush checked "Do not".
>
>Walt
>

More spin. So why do you think that is important? Probably 75% of the guys in
the ten or so fighter squadrons I was in were non-volunteers.

Walt you are really grasping for straws, hanging on opinions from spinmakers,
and totally out of touch with what went on in the military during the Vietnam
era.

The records of Gore, Bush, Kerry, and the actions of Clinton all seem fishy to
me though I take far less umbrage to Bush's service than I do the otheres
because I know of others who followed the same path as he did conmpletely
within the "system". What matters is what has happened in the last decade. So
far as defense is concerned I see little in Kerry's record that would give me
much comfort in that regard.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 7/11/2004 9:55 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>>From: (Steve Mellenthin)
>>Date: 7/11/2004 9:42 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>>Wow. More missions than me and Ed combined. You are now head warrior of
>this
>>>NG. Congrats.
>>
>>Thanks but I really thought Ed had nearly as many as I did.and he probably
>>has
>>more over RP6. I think I had 40 or so over Pack 6 and something like 80
>over
>>NVN. Been a long while since I counted.
>>
>
>I think Ed said he had 100 and I flew 50. So you still lead the pack. Well
>done.
>
>
>Arthur Kramer
>344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Ed's were in Nam. Mine were in the ETO over Germany.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Ed Rasimus]

On 11 Jul 2004 16:55:32 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

>>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>>From: (Steve Mellenthin)
>>Date: 7/11/2004 9:42 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>>Wow. More missions than me and Ed combined. You are now head warrior of this
>>>NG. Congrats.
>>
>>Thanks but I really thought Ed had nearly as many as I did.and he probably
>>has
>>more over RP6. I think I had 40 or so over Pack 6 and something like 80 over
>>NVN. Been a long while since I counted.
>>
>
>I think Ed said he had 100 and I flew 50. So you still lead the pack. Well
>done.

Steve and I flew together during '72-'73 in the 34th TFS at Korat. I
flew 110 missions (100 over NVN) in the F-105D, then 150 in the F-4E
(50 over NVN.) Steve's got more missions.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Steve Mellenthin]

>But we all
>>served. I am just as certain that some of your generation were more than
>>willing to serve in combat but didn't end up there. My dad volunteered for
>>but
>>was washed out of pilot training because of color blindness. He ended up
>>spending the war at Laredo TX working on high altitude research for the the
>>B-29 development.
>>
>>
>
>I can't speak for a generation, but in 1942 my greatest fear was that the war
>would end before I got there and I would miss the adventure of a lifetime.
>And
>many of us felt exactly that way back then. It didn't end and I got there.
>But
>I was very young and idealistic back then..But if I had it to do it all over
>again, I would do it the same

I am trying to make the point here that I don't think many of us in the late
60s had an overwhelming desire to go to Vietnam and kill other human beings, a
view that had little to do with willingness to serve in a useful capacity
during those days or with courage. I have seen no evidence that Buch didn't
serve in a useful capacity and honorably despite the efforts of some to
distort. What has been proffered as examples appear to me to be pretty much
unexceptional AF documents of the era. You could probably infer the same from
mine as folks have been from those of GWB in my first four years in the AF.

[Steve Mellenthin]

>I think Ed said he had 100 and I flew 50. So you still lead the pack. Well
>done.

Thanks but I defer to one Paul Dembrowsky, on whose wing I flew on a six month
deployment to Thailand in 72. He had 479 at the start of the deployment.

[Steve Mellenthin]

>Ed's were in Nam. Mine were in the ETO over Germany.

Art, I will trade you 25 over Pack 6 and and 25 over Pack 1 for your 50. For
the record, I've enjoyed your recollections of your experiences in the TO and I
humbly offer my thanks for your service to our country.

Steve

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Steve Mellenthin" > wrote in message
...
>
> Press guy then. Public information guy, whatever. Armed with a camera
and
> notebook.
>

Actually, I think he had a typewriter.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: (Steve Mellenthin)
>Date: 7/11/2004 10:28 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Ed's were in Nam. Mine were in the ETO over Germany.
>
>Art, I will trade you 25 over Pack 6 and and 25 over Pack 1 for your 50. For
>the record, I've enjoyed your recollections of your experiences in the TO and
>I
>humbly offer my thanks for your service to our country.
>
>Steve
>


Thanks Steve. I was 18 years old at the time and had nuthin' better to do so I
went to war. It tweren't nuthin'. (shy grin)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[D. Strang]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> I can't speak for a generation, but in 1942 my greatest fear was that the war
> would end before I got there and I would miss the adventure of a lifetime.

War is attractive to youth. Americans love war. Most veterans will tell you they
were scared, wouldn't do it again, but deep down--their lives were nothing before,
or after the war.

[ArtKramr]

>Ed's were in Nam. Mine were in the ETO over Germany.
>
>Art, I will trade you 25 over Pack 6 and and 25 over Pack 1 for your 50

Whats pack 6 and pack 1? Was it anything like the Ruhr Valley? (:->)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: (Steve Mellenthin)
>Date: 7/11/2004 10:14 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>I think Ed said he had 100 and I flew 50. So you still lead the pack. Well
>>done.
>
>Thanks but I defer to one Paul Dembrowsky, on whose wing I flew on a six
>month
>deployment to Thailand in 72. He had 479 at the start of the deployment.


Sheeesh. The mind boggles as the blood curles. No one in WW II got nearly that
many.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[D. Strang]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Sheeesh. The mind boggles as the blood curles. No one in WW II got nearly that
> many.

Fighter pilots did. Average bomber crews probably only fly two sorties a week,
and they are much longer than a fighter sortie.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: "D. Strang"
>Date: 7/11/2004 11:09 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <9lfIc.22545$r3.12181@okepread03>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> Sheeesh. The mind boggles as the blood curles. No one in WW II got nearly
>that
>> many.
>
>Fighter pilots did. Average bomber crews probably only fly two sorties a
>week,
>and they are much longer than a fighter sortie.


Bombers flew missions. Fighters flew sorties.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Ed Rasimus]

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:49:11 -0500, "D. Strang"
> wrote:

>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> I can't speak for a generation, but in 1942 my greatest fear was that the war
>> would end before I got there and I would miss the adventure of a lifetime.
>
>War is attractive to youth. Americans love war. Most veterans will tell you they
>were scared, wouldn't do it again, but deep down--their lives were nothing before,
>or after the war.
>

Your reply to Art sounds like the beginning of the George C. Scott
"Patton" speech--"American's love a good fight." But, the daily
blathering seems to refute that, at least for the current crop.
American's love to stay home and watch the latest reality show while
someone else does the fighting for them. They love to forget the
reality of life and the truism that "freedom isn't free."

Few veterans will tell you they were scared. They certainly won't tell
you that before the fight and few will confess to it during the fight.
Some will admit it years after the war.

But warriors WILL do it again and then again. The numbers of warriors
that served multiple tours in combat zones, that served multiple
overseas tours and separations from families, that re-upped and made a
career out of defending an ungrateful nation certainly were more than
willing to do it again.

And, their lives after the war are much more than those of the
pathetic whimperers who think nothing is worth more than self. Those
who kept faith with their brothers in arms walk taller than those who
turned their back on them for the political gains of the moment.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: Ed Rasimus
>Date: 7/11/2004 11:20 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:49:11 -0500, "D. Strang"
> wrote:
>
>>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>>
>>> I can't speak for a generation, but in 1942 my greatest fear was that the
>war
>>> would end before I got there and I would miss the adventure of a lifetime.
>>
>>War is attractive to youth. Americans love war. Most veterans will tell
>you they
>>were scared, wouldn't do it again, but deep down--their lives were nothing
>before,
>>or after the war.
>>
>
>Your reply to Art sounds like the beginning of the George C. Scott
>"Patton" speech--"American's love a good fight." But, the daily
>blathering seems to refute that, at least for the current crop.
>American's love to stay home and watch the latest reality show while
>someone else does the fighting for them. They love to forget the
>reality of life and the truism that "freedom isn't free."
>
>Few veterans will tell you they were scared. They certainly won't tell
>you that before the fight and few will confess to it during the fight.
>Some will admit it years after the war.
>
>But warriors WILL do it again and then again. The numbers of warriors
>that served multiple tours in combat zones, that served multiple
>overseas tours and separations from families, that re-upped and made a
>career out of defending an ungrateful nation certainly were more than
>willing to do it again.
>
>And, their lives after the war are much more than those of the
>pathetic whimperers who think nothing is worth more than self. Those
>who kept faith with their brothers in arms walk taller than those who
>turned their back on them for the political gains of the moment.
>
>
>Ed Rasimus
>Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
>"When Thunder Rolled"
>

We don't agree on much, but we agree on that. Well said.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Ed Rasimus]

On 11 Jul 2004 18:15:45 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:


>Bombers flew missions. Fighters flew sorties.
>
>Arthur Kramer

And, the distinction is????

There seem to be a number of fighter aviators around here who have a
lot of missions. And even dropped a lot of bombs. P-47s dropped a lot
of bombs as did F4Us, were they flying sorties or missions? Did I not
really fly missions?

Is a mission better than a sortie? Can you not die on a sortie or does
it have to be a mission? Do Mormons go on sorties?

Methinks I hear the elephants rumbling forward as we tromp upon the
**** ants.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Steve Mellenthin]

>>Thanks but I defer to one Paul Dembrowsky, on whose wing I flew on a six
>>month
>>deployment to Thailand in 72. He had 479 at the start of the deployment.
>
>
>Sheeesh. The mind boggles as the blood curles. No one in WW II got nearly
>that
>many.
>
>
>
>Arthur Kramer
>

There were a few tiems when the gear and flaps were still retracting as you
were entering into the dive bomb pattern. Or at least it seemed that way. I
had one sortie where we had to recover and rearm 20 min after TO from DaNang.
Average sortie length was probably 2.5 hours or so. Don't forget we got to
work a little faster than you did so there was more opportunity to fly more
missions. Paul Had a total of around 30 months in SEA as opposed to my 20.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: Ed Rasimus
>Date: 7/11/2004 11:42 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 11 Jul 2004 18:15:45 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>
>>Bombers flew missions. Fighters flew sorties.
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>
>And, the distinction is????
>
>There seem to be a number of fighter aviators around here who have a
>lot of missions. And even dropped a lot of bombs. P-47s dropped a lot
>of bombs as did F4Us, were they flying sorties or missions? Did I not
>really fly missions?
>
>Is a mission better than a sortie? Can you not die on a sortie or does
>it have to be a mission? Do Mormons go on sorties?
>
>Methinks I hear the elephants rumbling forward as we tromp upon the
>**** ants.
>
>
>Ed Rasimus
>Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
>"When Thunder Rolled"
>Smithsonian Institution Press
>ISBN #1-58834-103-8
>

Nothing I ever flew was called a sorie, They were all called missions. Every
fighter pilot I met in the ETO talked about his sorties. I leave the **** ants
to you.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: (Steve Mellenthin)
>Date: 7/11/2004 12:02 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>>Thanks but I defer to one Paul Dembrowsky, on whose wing I flew on a six
>>>month
>>>deployment to Thailand in 72. He had 479 at the start of the deployment.
>>
>>
>>Sheeesh. The mind boggles as the blood curles. No one in WW II got nearly
>>that
>>many.
>>
>>
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>>
>
>There were a few tiems when the gear and flaps were still retracting as you
>were entering into the dive bomb pattern. Or at least it seemed that way. I
>had one sortie where we had to recover and rearm 20 min after TO from DaNang.
>
>Average sortie length was probably 2.5 hours or so. Don't forget we got to
>work a little faster than you did so there was more opportunity to fly more
>missions. Paul Had a total of around 30 months in SEA as opposed to my 20.
>

Reminds me of the Battle of the Bulge. We were opening our bomb bay doors as
our wheels came up.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Steve Mellenthin]

>
>Bombers flew missions. Fighters flew sorties

I woulen't exactly call a 50 ship Linebacker a sortie.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: (Steve Mellenthin)
>Date: 7/11/2004 12:09 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>
>>Bombers flew missions. Fighters flew sorties
>
>I woulen't exactly call a 50 ship Linebacker a sortie.
>


What's a Linebacker?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Chris Mark]

>>>I think Ed said he had 100 and I flew 50. So you still lead the pack. Well
>>>done.
>>
>>Thanks but I defer to one Paul Dembrowsky, on whose wing I flew on a six
>>month
>>deployment to Thailand in 72. He had 479 at the start of the deployment.
>
>
>Sheeesh. The mind boggles as the blood curles. No one in WW II got nearly
>that
>many.

One of the more impressive gentlemen I ever met was Max Mortensen. He served
with one of the B-25 groups in the Pacific during WW2--served is putting it
mildly. He joined it as a 2nd Lt. and stayed with the unit through 26 months
of continuous combat, flying iirc some 110 combat missions and rising to the
rank of Lt. Col. He survived everything the enemy could throw at him,
including a direct flak hit in the bomb bay while over Rabaul, which ignited
the WP bomblets, finally being shot down while attacking a frigate, near Hainan
Island iirc during the closing days of the war, captured by the Japanese,
starved and tortured (one of the thee crewmen who survived the ditching died
under the torture). He was rescued by an OSS team led by John Singlaub, the
same Singlaub who, as commander of UN forces in Korea was fired by Pres. Carter
in a pretty messy incident.
You may know Mortensen. He was the last commander of the former 344th (by
then renamed something else) when it was based in France in the early 1950s and
flying Douglas B-26s (nee A-26).


Chris Mark

[Steve Mellenthin]

>
>
>Whats pack 6 and pack 1? Was it anything like the Ruhr Valley? (:->)

Roughly translated, areas that North Viet Nam was divided into for routing and
targeting purposes. Route Package 1 was the far south of NVN in the panhandle
and Route Package was basically the Hanoi area. I've been told that Pack 6
was the most heavily defended area in history prior to downtown Baghdad in
Desert Storm but I have no basis for comparison. All I can tell you is that on
a clear day, Hanoi was clear as a bell if you were the first flight in and
hazier than downtown LA in the summer from groundfire if you were the last.

[D. Strang]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Bombers flew missions. Fighters flew sorties.

Fighter pilots probably speak French better...

[Steve Mellenthin]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: Ed Rasimus
>Date: 7/11/2004 2:20 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:49:11 -0500, "D. Strang"
> wrote:
>
>>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>>
>>> I can't speak for a generation, but in 1942 my greatest fear was that the
>war
>>> would end before I got there and I would miss the adventure of a lifetime.
>>
>>War is attractive to youth. Americans love war. Most veterans will tell
>you they
>>were scared, wouldn't do it again, but deep down--their lives were nothing
>before,
>>or after the war.
>>
>
>Your reply to Art sounds like the beginning of the George C. Scott
>"Patton" speech--"American's love a good fight." But, the daily
>blathering seems to refute that, at least for the current crop.
>American's love to stay home and watch the latest reality show while
>someone else does the fighting for them. They love to forget the
>reality of life and the truism that "freedom isn't free."
>
>

Amen, Ed. I was scared (a lot) but never admitted it either..

[Steve Mellenthin]

>> Press guy then. Public information guy, whatever. Armed with a camera
>and
>> notebook.
>>
>
>Actually, I think he had a typewriter.

Glad to hear. You can do more hurt by hitting someone with a typoewriter than
stabbing with a pencil.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: (Chris Mark)
>Date: 7/11/2004 12:20 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>>>I think Ed said he had 100 and I flew 50. So you still lead the pack. Well
>>>>done.
>>>
>>>Thanks but I defer to one Paul Dembrowsky, on whose wing I flew on a six
>>>month
>>>deployment to Thailand in 72. He had 479 at the start of the deployment.
>>
>>
>>Sheeesh. The mind boggles as the blood curles. No one in WW II got nearly
>>that
>>many.
>
>One of the more impressive gentlemen I ever met was Max Mortensen. He served
>with one of the B-25 groups in the Pacific during WW2--served is putting it
>mildly. He joined it as a 2nd Lt. and stayed with the unit through 26 months
>of continuous combat, flying iirc some 110 combat missions and rising to the
>rank of Lt. Col. He survived everything the enemy could throw at him,
>including a direct flak hit in the bomb bay while over Rabaul, which ignited
>the WP bomblets, finally being shot down while attacking a frigate, near
>Hainan
>Island iirc during the closing days of the war, captured by the Japanese,
>starved and tortured (one of the thee crewmen who survived the ditching died
>under the torture). He was rescued by an OSS team led by John Singlaub, the
>same Singlaub who, as commander of UN forces in Korea was fired by Pres.
>Carter
>in a pretty messy incident.
>You may know Mortensen. He was the last commander of the former 344th (by
>then renamed something else) when it was based in France in the early 1950s
>and
>flying Douglas B-26s (nee A-26).
>
>
>Chris Mark
>

Interesting stuff. I never knew Mortensen. I was gone by then I left for home
in July 1946. I know the 344th was renamed, but I forgot what. But I did serve
in the A-26's for a while. Nice hot little plene. I liked it a lot better than
the Marauders. Better escape route for the Bombardier.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: "D. Strang"
>Date: 7/11/2004 12:21 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <wpgIc.22560$r3.20264@okepread03>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> Bombers flew missions. Fighters flew sorties.
>
>Fighter pilots probably speak French better...


That was good. Very good. (:->)




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[D. Strang]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote
> "D. Strang" wrote:
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote
> >>
> >> I can't speak for a generation, but in 1942 my greatest fear was that the war
> >> would end before I got there and I would miss the adventure of a lifetime.
> >
> >War is attractive to youth. Americans love war. Most veterans will tell you they
> >were scared, wouldn't do it again, but deep down--their lives were nothing before,
> >or after the war.
> >
>
> Your reply to Art sounds like the beginning of the George C. Scott
> "Patton" speech--"American's love a good fight." But, the daily
> blathering seems to refute that, at least for the current crop.
> American's love to stay home and watch the latest reality show while
> someone else does the fighting for them. They love to forget the
> reality of life and the truism that "freedom isn't free."
>
> Few veterans will tell you they were scared. They certainly won't tell
> you that before the fight and few will confess to it during the fight.
> Some will admit it years after the war.
>
> But warriors WILL do it again and then again. The numbers of warriors
> that served multiple tours in combat zones, that served multiple
> overseas tours and separations from families, that re-upped and made a
> career out of defending an ungrateful nation certainly were more than
> willing to do it again.
>
> And, their lives after the war are much more than those of the
> pathetic whimperers who think nothing is worth more than self. Those
> who kept faith with their brothers in arms walk taller than those who
> turned their back on them for the political gains of the moment.

General Yeager tells a story in his book, where one time he was scared to
fly. I'm probably not describing it correctly, as he wasn't scared, he was
sure he was going to die. That's more what I mean. In combat, there are
times when you are sure you are going to die, and maybe scared isn't the
right word, but worrying about your family or fellow soldiers, who will now
have to deal with that.

You have a much better writing skill than I, and agree with everything you've
said here.

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 7/11/2004 11:16 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>>From: Mike Williamson
>>Date: 7/11/2004 7:57 AM Pac
>
>> Since that form doesn't have a date, and according to the first
>>section, deals with being recalled for non-flying duty, it appears
>>to deal with inactive duty after going off active duty, and is
>>therefore irrelevant to the discussion. Perhaps the (obviously
>>objective) owner of the site "awolbush.com" would provide the rest
>>of the form so that we might see the actual context of the
>>form?
>>
>> I'll not hold my breath waiting, if you don't mind...
>>
>> The volunteering for deployment in the F-102 was covered quite
>>some time ago- during the 2000 Presidential campaign, as I recall..
>>
>>Mike
>>
>
>
>The man didn't want to fight. End of story.
>
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

More neo-left logic? If that were the case he was foolish to apply for a flying
slot in a branch that's all about combat aircraft.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: (WalterM140)
>Date: 7/11/2004 6:39 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>> Mea culpa. Mea culpa. Now if Bush knew about those golf courses......
>>
>> He tried to get into a program that could have landed hime near
>> one of them. He didn't have enough stick time it seems.
>>
>
>The only thing I've seen is that Bush declined to volunteer for Viet Nam.
>
>A link:
>
>http://awolbush.com/images/kerr_bush_nam.gif
>
>
>Walt

Walt, you are repeating yourself, a typical neo-left action. I don't know if
the USMC had "dream sheets," but the Army and Air Force did. I filled out one
in the Army volunteering for Viet Nam, they sent me, I filled one out in the
USAF as "not an overseas volunteer" and stayed stateside for my first year. I
volunteered for West Germany and was there a few months later. I filled out a
dream sheet while I was there listing only northern SAC bases and wond up in
special ops in Florida for 14 years.

Now then, how many people in your OCS class put "not an overseas volunteer" on
their dream sheet? I won't bother asking if you did.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[D. Strang]

> The man didn't want to fight. End of story.

According to Yossarian's doctor, that meant he was sane.

[B2431]

>From: (Smartace11)
>>

<snip>

A
>two star I worked for did his tour as a navigator (!!) on a T-39 Learjet (c/s
>Scatback) that ferried between Clark Air Base Phillipines, Saigon, and the
>Thai
>bases.

Not to be difficult, but the T-39 Sabreliner was made by Rockwell.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: (Steve Mellenthin)
>Date: 7/11/2004 10:13 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>> Minor nit-pick. The (C)T-39 was the Sabreliner. Learjets didn't come
>>into AF service until the 1980's, replacing the Sabreliner in many
>>instances. The Navy still flies T-39s.
>
>You're right. I misspoke in trying to relate to the youngsters here what a
>T-39 was.

Gee, you must be REAL old. <g>
I used to work on the A and B models. Nice little airplane. A pain to work on.

We used to have Dymo® labels over the pilot and copilot's windscreens saying
"Caution: B model, do not stall above 25,000 feet." Most of those labels were
reduced to "Caution: B model" by some wise ass.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Steve Mellenthin]

>>I woulen't exactly call a 50 ship Linebacker a sortie.
>>
>
>
>What's a Linebacker?
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

You pullin' my leg here or just haven't been readig the dialog here for the
last couple of years?

I'd say you will have to wait for Ed's next book but I wil cut you some slack
because I've enjoyed your WWII stories.

Linebacker was the code name for Nixon's air campaign against North Vietnam in
1972 as Rolling Thunder was under Johnson inprevious years. There were two
phases. LB One involved mostly fighter ops and LB Two was a concentrated
campaign using B-52s over RP 6.

A Linebacker mission involved fighters, fighter-bombers or bombers, escorts,
comm, early warning, combat air patrols (CAP), pre and post strike recon,
tankers, airborne command and control, rescue, jammers, electronic intel
(ELINT), among other functions. On the order of a large heavy bomber strike in
the ETO. Same tonnage of bombs, just needed fewer planes to deliver. Usually
50 - 100 planes or so.

[Steve Mellenthin]

>Gee, you must be REAL old. <g>

No, some here are really young. Or at least they act that way.


>I used to work on the A and B models. Nice little airplane. A pain to work
>on.

Heard it was a bit sporty to land on wet runwyas though.

[Steve Mellenthin]

> I
>>had one sortie where we had to recover and rearm 20 min after TO from
>DaNang.
>>
>>Average sortie length was probably 2.5 hours or so. Don't forget we got to
>>work a little faster than you did so there was more opportunity to fly more
>>missions. Paul Had a total of around 30 months in SEA as opposed to my 20.
>>
>
>Reminds me of the Battle of the Bulge. We were opening our bomb bay doors as
>our wheels came up.
>

Throw in nightly ricket and mortar attacks and you have the picture attack.
The one time I wasn't ashamed to admit I was scared was taxiing out at DaNang
at night with 6000# of bombs and 18,000# of fuel when the rockets started
hitting the taxiwayand apron.

[Fred the Red Shirt]

Mike Williamson > wrote in message >...
>
> Of course he knew about the Golf Courses- he volunteered for
> deployment to Vietnam, as you have known for some time, as it came
> up several times in the newspapers, these forums, and even
> television news.
>

As you know, he did not volunteer for deployment in Vietnam.
When he enlisted in the ANG he indicated that he did not want
to be stationsed overseas. Later, when he had only a couple of
years left, he did volunteer for a program that could have
deployed him overseas, but not necessarily in Vietnam. He didn't
have enough expience, and the aircraft for which he was qualified
was being phased out so, one does wonder why he did.

--

FF

[D. Strang]

"Steve Mellenthin" > wrote
> >Gee, you must be REAL old. <g>
>
> No, some here are really young. Or at least they act that way.
>
>
> >I used to work on the A and B models. Nice little airplane. A pain to work
> >on.
>
> Heard it was a bit sporty to land on wet runwyas though.

Can't remember his name, but the Commander of TAC was killed trying
to land one.

[Ed Rasimus]

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:37:44 -0500, "D. Strang"
> wrote:

>"Ed Rasimus" > wrote
>> "D. Strang" wrote:
>> >"ArtKramr" > wrote
>> >>
>> >> I can't speak for a generation, but in 1942 my greatest fear was that the war
>> >> would end before I got there and I would miss the adventure of a lifetime.
>> >
>> >War is attractive to youth. Americans love war. Most veterans will tell you they
>> >were scared, wouldn't do it again, but deep down--their lives were nothing before,
>> >or after the war.
>> >
>> Few veterans will tell you they were scared. They certainly won't tell
>> you that before the fight and few will confess to it during the fight.
>> Some will admit it years after the war.
>>
>
>General Yeager tells a story in his book, where one time he was scared to
>fly. I'm probably not describing it correctly, as he wasn't scared, he was
>sure he was going to die. That's more what I mean. In combat, there are
>times when you are sure you are going to die, and maybe scared isn't the
>right word, but worrying about your family or fellow soldiers, who will now
>have to deal with that.
>
>You have a much better writing skill than I, and agree with everything you've
>said here.
>

If you would like to read about scared, then I can (he said
blushingly) recommend that you take a look at When Thunder Rolled. I
deal with scared.

And, if Walt wants a Silver Star story, he'll find several about a
number of recipients although they aren't identified as such. One
comes at the end of Chapter 15, "Hits & Misses."....sort of a Colin
Kelly meets "magic and mirrors."


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Ed Rasimus]

On 11 Jul 2004 19:13:04 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

>>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>>From: (Steve Mellenthin)
>>Date: 7/11/2004 12:09 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>>
>>>Bombers flew missions. Fighters flew sorties
>>
>>I woulen't exactly call a 50 ship Linebacker a sortie.
>>
>
>
>What's a Linebacker?
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

Art, I recall sending you a copy of When Thunder Rolled. If you read
it, you'll find a clear explanation of what the Route Packages were
and you won't have to ask questions like "what's a Pack 6".

And, if you wait until February when "Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
is released, you'll get a clear explanation of what Linebacker was.

Or, you could read Eschman's "Linebacker", or Ethel's "One Day in a
Long War", or Michel's "Eleven Days of Christmas" or any of a dozen
other books about the air war over North Vietnam.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[B2431]

>From: (Steve Mellenthin)
>Date: 7/11/2004 3:05 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Gee, you must be REAL old. <g>
>
>No, some here are really young. Or at least they act that way.
>
>
>>I used to work on the A and B models. Nice little airplane. A pain to work
>>on.
>
>Heard it was a bit sporty to land on wet runwyas though.

Picky-picky <g>

I was impressed by how much damage they could sustain and remain repairable. We
had one bury itself up to the pitot tubes in mud, the pilot flubbed a touch and
go, and it was flying in a few months.


Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
(B2431) wrote:

> >From: (Smartace11)
> >>
>
> <snip>
>
> A
> >two star I worked for did his tour as a navigator (!!) on a T-39 Learjet (c/s
> >Scatback) that ferried between Clark Air Base Phillipines, Saigon, and the
> >Thai
> >bases.
>
> Not to be difficult, but the T-39 Sabreliner was made by Rockwell.

North American, before Rockwell acquired them.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: "D. Strang"
>Date: 7/11/2004 12:37 PM Paci

>General Yeager tells a story in his book, where one time he was scared to
>fly. I'm probably not describing it correctly, as he wasn't scared, he was
>sure he was going to die. That's more what I mean. In combat, there are
>times when you are sure you are going to die, and maybe scared isn't the
>right word, but worrying about your family or fellow soldiers, who will now
>have to deal with that.

Visit my website and read. "I'm going to die today'" It just what we were
talking about.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[WalterM140]

>>When I clicked the link and scrolled down it shows a box outlined in red
>that
>>says:
>>
>>"I do/do not volunteer for overseas service."
>>
>>Bush checked "Do not".
>>
>>Walt
>>
>
>More spin.

It's not spin. I didn't keep track, but someone said that Bush volunteered for
overseas service. Maybe he did, but in February, 1968, he declined to do so.

I've seen no proof that he ever did.

Walt

[WalterM140]

>>It he changed that later, I'd be glad of some proof.
>>
>>
>>Walt
>>
>
>Don't hold your breath.

I didn't keep track, Art. But it seems to just a flat lie.

Walt

[Steve Mellenthin]

>It's not spin. I didn't keep track, but someone said that Bush volunteered
>for
>overseas service. Maybe he did, but in February, 1968, he declined to do so.

Someone said, huh? Must be the truth if "someone" says so

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"WalterM140" > wrote in message
...
>
> When I clicked the link and scrolled down it shows a box outlined in red
that
> says:
>
> "I do/do not volunteer for overseas service."
>
> Bush checked "Do not".
>

Me too, but, of course, that does not indicate he did not volunteer for Viet
Nam.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: (Steve Mellenthin)
>Date: 7/11/2004 1:03 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>>I woulen't exactly call a 50 ship Linebacker a sortie.
>>>
>>
>>
>>What's a Linebacker?
>>
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>
>You pullin' my leg here or just haven't been readig the dialog here for the
>last couple of years?
>
>I'd say you will have to wait for Ed's next book but I wil cut you some slack
>because I've enjoyed your WWII stories.
>
>Linebacker was the code name for Nixon's air campaign against North Vietnam
>in
>1972 as Rolling Thunder was under Johnson inprevious years. There were two
>phases. LB One involved mostly fighter ops and LB Two was a concentrated
>campaign using B-52s over RP 6.
>
>A Linebacker mission involved fighters, fighter-bombers or bombers, escorts,
>comm, early warning, combat air patrols (CAP), pre and post strike recon,
>tankers, airborne command and control, rescue, jammers, electronic intel
>(ELINT), among other functions. On the order of a large heavy bomber strike
>in
>the ETO. Same tonnage of bombs, just needed fewer planes to deliver. Usually
>50 - 100 planes or so.
>
I have been seeing linebacker in lots of messages and you are the first one
that explained it. Thanks. I guess that there was an assumption that everyone
here flew in Nam


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: Ed Rasimus
>Date: 7/11/2004 1:41 PM Pac

>Art, I recall sending you a copy of When Thunder Rolled. If you read
>it, you'll find a clear explanation of what the Route Packages were
>and you won't have to ask questions like "what's a Pack 6

Never got it. If I had I would have read it cover to cover non stop and
discussed it here with you. I wonder where it went?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Steve Mellenthin]

(WalterM140) wrote in
:
>
>>>>The only thing I've seen is that Bush declined to volunteer for Viet
>>>>Nam.
>>>
>>>Your point is? I don't think many of us actually did. Some did to
>>>get out of
>>>a tour in places like Korea.
>
> Now I know Korea is a hardship posting but choosing Nam over Korea?
> Isn't that somewhat extreme. And it just means some other poor *******
> had to take your place

You obviously weren't stationed in Korea in the late 60s. Korat where I was
stationed in 72 -73 was a pretty plush place compared to Kunsan Korea. Sitting
a lot of nuke alert for weeks at a time wasn't an exactly exciting part of my
flying career unless one got launched and that never happende for me. .

[Ian MacLure]

(WalterM140) wrote in
:

[snip]

> When I clicked the link and scrolled down it shows a box outlined in
> red that says:
>
> "I do/do not volunteer for overseas service."
>
> Bush checked "Do not".

And later changed his mind.
Funny you don't mention that part.

IBM

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[Steven P. McNicoll]

"D. Strang" > wrote in message
news:eydIc.22529$r3.13007@okepread03...
>
> That has nothing to do with "Vietnam." Maybe he didn't want to go to
Korea,
> or Germany. I never ever volunteered for overseas. It came fast enough
on its
> own. If you look at my military records (dream sheets) they will all say
I was
> a non-volunteer for overseas. Yet I served 8 years overseas.
>

How meaningful is that anyway for a Guard member? Wouldn't you go wherever
your unit is sent, regardless of your volunteer status?

[Ian MacLure]

(ArtKramr) wrote in news:20040711121608.23951.00001684@mb-
m28.aol.com:

[snip]

> The man didn't want to fight. End of story.

Failure to olunteer for solo banzai charges down the Main Street
of Hanoi should not be construed as a lack of motivation.

IBM

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[Ian MacLure]

Mike Marron > wrote in
:

[snip]

> All that truly matters is that the man wants to fight NOW. End of
> story.

And-uh he recognises who the real enemy is.... France!

IBM

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<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>

[Ian MacLure]

(ArtKramr) wrote in
:

[snip]

> Ed's were in Nam. Mine were in the ETO over Germany.

Machs nicht. Aircrew casualties 1939-1945 were
higher than in Vietnam were they not.
The word horrendous springs to mind.

IBM

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[BUFDRVR]

ArtKramr wrote:

>I guess that there was an assumption that everyone
>here flew in Nam

I was 3 years old when Linebacker I kicked off and 3 1/2 for Linebacker II and
I still knew what they were.....


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Ian MacLure]

Ed Rasimus > wrote in
:

[snip]

> Steve and I flew together during '72-'73 in the 34th TFS at Korat. I
> flew 110 missions (100 over NVN) in the F-105D, then 150 in the F-4E
> (50 over NVN.) Steve's got more missions.

And neither of you care much about it I'd venture to guess.

IBM

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[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
>
> As you know, he did not volunteer for deployment in Vietnam.
> When he enlisted in the ANG he indicated that he did not want
> to be stationsed overseas. Later, when he had only a couple of
> years left, he did volunteer for a program that could have
> deployed him overseas, but not necessarily in Vietnam. He didn't
> have enough expience, and the aircraft for which he was qualified
> was being phased out so, one does wonder why he did.
>

Being phased out, but in USAF service until mid 1973.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 7/11/2004 8:06 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>
>>I guess that there was an assumption that everyone
>>here flew in Nam
>
>I was 3 years old when Linebacker I kicked off and 3 1/2 for Linebacker II
>and
>I still knew what they were.....
>
>
>BUFDRVR
>
>"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
>harelips
>everyone on Bear Creek"
>

You must be unusually brilliant. Do you know gat operation Casy Jones was in WW
II?



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: Ian MacLure
>Date: 7/11/2004 8:04 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote in
:
>
> [snip]
>
>> Ed's were in Nam. Mine were in the ETO over Germany.
>
> Machs nicht. Aircrew casualties 1939-1945 were
> higher than in Vietnam were they not.
> The word horrendous springs to mind.
>
> IBM
>


I never flew in Viet Nam and have no idea of rhe casualty rate vis-s-vis the
ETO. And I don't want to start an argument over which war was more dangerous
for flyers.
Let's just say that no one goes into combat with any assurances of ever coming
out alive, and let it go at that.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Ian MacLure]

(ArtKramr) wrote in
:

[snip]

> Sheeesh. The mind boggles as the blood curles. No one in WW II got
> nearly that many.

Depends. If you were in from the get-go in 39 and in something
that generated a lot of short sorties you could. RAF Coastal Command
for instance.
I expect there may have been some on the other side who got that
many or more.
It is however impressive for a modern war.

IBM



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[Ian MacLure]

"D. Strang" > wrote in
news:jEgIc.22562$r3.17753@okepread03:

[snip]

> General Yeager tells a story in his book, where one time he was scared
> to fly. I'm probably not describing it correctly, as he wasn't
> scared, he was sure he was going to die. That's more what I mean. In
> combat, there are times when you are sure you are going to die, and
> maybe scared isn't the right word, but worrying about your family or
> fellow soldiers, who will now have to deal with that.

A lot of the time being scared is the only sane reaction.
How you deal with it is what separates the heroes and the zeroes.

IBM

__________________________________________________ _____________________________
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<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: Ian MacLure
>Date: 7/11/2004 9:15 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote in news:20040711151304.23951.00001710@mb-
>m28.aol.com:
>
> [snip]
>
>> What's a Linebacker?
>
> Code name for a campaign of coordinated strikes
> agaunst targets in North Vietnam. IIRC.
>
> IBM
>

Thank you. I appreciate it.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: Ian MacLure
>Date: 7/11/2004 9:38 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"D. Strang" > wrote in
>news:jEgIc.22562$r3.17753@okepread03:
>
> [snip]
>
>> General Yeager tells a story in his book, where one time he was scared
>> to fly. I'm probably not describing it correctly, as he wasn't
>> scared, he was sure he was going to die. That's more what I mean. In
>> combat, there are times when you are sure you are going to die, and
>> maybe scared isn't the right word, but worrying about your family or
>> fellow soldiers, who will now have to deal with that.
>
> A lot of the time being scared is the only sane reaction.
> How you deal with it is what separates the heroes and the zeroes.
>
> IBM
>
>

Fear is always present to a greater or lessser degree. Keeping it under control
makes everything possible.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Mike Williamson]

Fred the Red Shirt wrote:
> Mike Williamson > wrote in message >...
>
>> Of course he knew about the Golf Courses- he volunteered for
>>deployment to Vietnam, as you have known for some time, as it came
>>up several times in the newspapers, these forums, and even
>>television news.
>>
>
>
> As you know, he did not volunteer for deployment in Vietnam.
> When he enlisted in the ANG he indicated that he did not want
> to be stationsed overseas. Later, when he had only a couple of
> years left, he did volunteer for a program that could have
> deployed him overseas, but not necessarily in Vietnam. He didn't
> have enough expience, and the aircraft for which he was qualified
> was being phased out so, one does wonder why he did.
>

Well, here's a thought- perhaps he thought it was his only/last shot
at deploying and doing what he was trained for. BTW, the program was
not a PCS as I recall ("stationed overseas,") but a deployment, so not
being a volunteer for stationing overseas isn't the same thing- also,
I am not aware of all that many Guardsmen who have ever been volunteers
for overseas stationing- or that there are many National Guard troops
stationed (as opposed to deployed) overseas in any case. I am aware
of a couple, but in each case they were the spouse of an active duty
member and moved as a result of the active duty stationing, and picked
up a duty slot only after moving there.

Mike

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 7/11/2004 8:12 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>>From: (Steve Mellenthin)
>>Date: 7/11/2004 1:03 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>>>I woulen't exactly call a 50 ship Linebacker a sortie.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>What's a Linebacker?
>>>
>>>
>>>Arthur Kramer
>>
>>You pullin' my leg here or just haven't been readig the dialog here for the
>>last couple of years?
>>
>>I'd say you will have to wait for Ed's next book but I wil cut you some
>slack
>>because I've enjoyed your WWII stories.
>>
>>Linebacker was the code name for Nixon's air campaign against North Vietnam
>>in
>>1972 as Rolling Thunder was under Johnson inprevious years. There were two
>>phases. LB One involved mostly fighter ops and LB Two was a concentrated
>>campaign using B-52s over RP 6.
>>
>>A Linebacker mission involved fighters, fighter-bombers or bombers, escorts,
>>comm, early warning, combat air patrols (CAP), pre and post strike recon,
>>tankers, airborne command and control, rescue, jammers, electronic intel
>>(ELINT), among other functions. On the order of a large heavy bomber strike
>>in
>>the ETO. Same tonnage of bombs, just needed fewer planes to deliver.
>Usually
>>50 - 100 planes or so.
>>
> I have been seeing linebacker in lots of messages and you are the first one
>that explained it. Thanks. I guess that there was an assumption that everyone
>here flew in Nam
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

More likely the assumed people your age paid attention to the news during Viet
Nam and that most people here have at least a rough idea of military aviation
history.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Dweezil Dwarftosser]

Fred the Red Shirt wrote:
>
> As you know, he did not volunteer for deployment in Vietnam.
> When he enlisted in the ANG he indicated that he did not want
> to be stationsed overseas.

You do know that these "dream sheets" were divided into two
parts: stateside and overseas, right? Any entry in the overseas
portion was considered volunteering for worldwide duty. If you
chose (for example) the UK and nothing else - your second (empty)
choice exactly matched the first opening in S.E. Asia, Korea,
Iceland, or Alaska (don't ask why its considered "overseas"...).

The smart guys filled in all the blocks with countries to which
they couldn't be assigned... they had volunteered, but not been
selected for any location in the world.

[Dweezil Dwarftosser]

BUFDRVR wrote:
>
> ArtKramr wrote:
>
> >I guess that there was an assumption that everyone
> >here flew in Nam
>
> I was 3 years old when Linebacker I kicked off and 3 1/2 for Linebacker II and
> I still knew what they were.....

I guess Art slept through most of the 60s and 70s.
It was in all the papers...

[Ed Rasimus]

On 12 Jul 2004 01:17:58 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

>>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>>From: Ed Rasimus
>>Date: 7/11/2004 1:41 PM Pac
>
>>Art, I recall sending you a copy of When Thunder Rolled. If you read
>>it, you'll find a clear explanation of what the Route Packages were
>>and you won't have to ask questions like "what's a Pack 6
>
>Never got it. If I had I would have read it cover to cover non stop and
>discussed it here with you. I wonder where it went?

I sent you the full manuscript by email, pre-publication. You're even
mentioned in the acknowledgements among those who read and provided
input regarding the readability.

You can buy it at Amazon.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: Ed Rasimus
>Date: 7/12/2004 8:05 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 12 Jul 2004 01:17:58 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>>>From: Ed Rasimus
>>>Date: 7/11/2004 1:41 PM Pac
>>
>>>Art, I recall sending you a copy of When Thunder Rolled. If you read
>>>it, you'll find a clear explanation of what the Route Packages were
>>>and you won't have to ask questions like "what's a Pack 6
>>
>>Never got it. If I had I would have read it cover to cover non stop and
>>discussed it here with you. I wonder where it went?
>
>I sent you the full manuscript by email, pre-publication. You're even
>mentioned in the acknowledgements among those who read and provided
>input regarding the readability.
>
>You can buy it at Amazon.
>
>
>
>Ed Rasimus
>Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
>"When Thunder Rolled"
>Smithsonian Institution Press
>ISBN #1-58834-103-8


Yes, the manuscript. I remember. I am still waiting for Barnes and Noble to get
the book in. Think I'll go down and jostle thjem today.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[WalterM140]

Ian MacLure > wrote in message >...
> (WalterM140) wrote in
> :
>
> [snip]
>
> > When I clicked the link and scrolled down it shows a box outlined in
> > red that says:
> >
> > "I do/do not volunteer for overseas service."
> >
> > Bush checked "Do not".
>
> And later changed his mind.
> Funny you don't mention that part.
>
> IBM


Can you show a source that Bush did volunteer for duty overseas?
Because in February, 1968, he declined to do so.

I am not denying that he did, but I've seen no proof. Further, I've
never even seen it suggested.

Walt

[D. Strang]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote
>You're even mentioned in the acknowledgements among those who
> read and provided input regarding the readability.

That was his Caddy.

[D. Strang]

"WalterM140" > wrote
>
> Can you show a source that Bush did volunteer for duty overseas?

You act as if the world ended 30 years ago. People have had a life
and real accomplishments since then. Is your whole life about what you
did in the late 60's, with nothing accomplished after that?

The guy was a fricking Governor, for Christ's sakes. You think people
just vote for anyone?

Get a life.

[BUFDRVR]

ArtKramr wrote:

>You must be unusually brilliant.

Hardly.

>Do you know gat operation Casy Jones was in WW
>II?

I plead ignorance on that one. Operation Market Garden and of course Overlord
are the only named operations of WWII I know off the top of my cranium.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 7/12/2004 3:26 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>
>>You must be unusually brilliant.
>
>Hardly.
>
>>Do you know gat operation Casy Jones was in WW
>>II?
>
>I plead ignorance on that one. Operation Market Garden and of course Overlord
>are the only named operations of WWII I know off the top of my cranium.
>
>
>BUFDRVR
>

The day the war ended we fitted our Marauders with 10X10 Fairschild mapping
cameras and started flying mapping missions deep into Russian territory with
the cameras rolling.. That was Operation Casey Jones. In all thse years I have
never heard a single reference to it by any historian or in any text. It was a
secret of the cold war that was never revealed. I piled up the hours, but
couldn't call them combat hours so I stand pat with my 250 out of 1100..For
everyone who thinks they can read a book and all will be revealed, forget it.
There is much that will never be revealed in books. If those who lived it never
reveal it, it will be lost to history forever


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Guy Alcala]

Ed Rasimus wrote:

> On 12 Jul 2004 01:17:58 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
> >>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
> >>From: Ed Rasimus
> >>Date: 7/11/2004 1:41 PM Pac
> >
> >>Art, I recall sending you a copy of When Thunder Rolled. If you read
> >>it, you'll find a clear explanation of what the Route Packages were
> >>and you won't have to ask questions like "what's a Pack 6

<snip>

And if he wants a (somewhat limited) map before that, here's one online:

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/vietnam/469th/p6.htm

and here's an article from Air force Magazine by Walt Boyne, with an even
more limited map:

www.afa.org/magazine/Nov1999/1199pack6.pdf

Guy

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message t>...
> "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > As you know, he did not volunteer for deployment in Vietnam.
> > When he enlisted in the ANG he indicated that he did not want
> > to be stationsed overseas. Later, when he had only a couple of
> > years left, he did volunteer for a program that could have
> > deployed him overseas, but not necessarily in Vietnam. He didn't
> > have enough expience, and the aircraft for which he was qualified
> > was being phased out so, one does wonder why he did.
> >
>
> Being phased out, but in USAF service until mid 1973.

Here we are:

http://www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm

Bush recalls that toward the end of his training, he
volunteered for the "Palace Alert" program which sent
F-102 pilots to Europe and Asia for six-month tours.
He was turned down, no doubt because he didn't have
the flying time to qualify for the program. In any event,
he couldn't have been sent to Southeast Asia to take
part in the Vietnam War, at least not to fly a Delta
Dagger: the F-102 detachments in Vietnam and Thailand
were shut down in December 1969, before Bush got his wings.

I note that the source for the story that he volunteered is
Bush himself.

--

FF

[Buzzer]

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:04:03 GMT, Guy Alcala
> wrote:

>and here's an article from Air force Magazine by Walt Boyne, with an even
>more limited map:
>
>www.afa.org/magazine/Nov1999/1199pack6.pdf

From the last page:
"...Robin Olds, an ace from World War II and Korea who also flew
fighters in Vietnam. Olds has said that none of his missions over
Germany in World War II were as bad as any one of his missions over
Hanoi during the Vietnam War..."

[Tex Houston]

"Buzzer" > wrote in message
...

> From the last page:
> "...Robin Olds, an ace from World War II and Korea who also flew
> fighters in Vietnam. Olds has said that none of his missions over
> Germany in World War II were as bad as any one of his missions over
> Hanoi during the Vietnam War..."

The only connection with Korea that Robin Olds had was reading about it in
the newspapers while serving with an ADC unit in Pittsburgh. Not all pilots
in at the time served in Korea as he would be the first to tell you.

Tex

[WalterM140]

> Bush recalls that toward the end of his training, he
> volunteered for the "Palace Alert" program

Contemporary proof, please.

Like this:

http://awolbush.com/images/kerr_bush_nam.gif

In February, 1968 Bush asked not to be sent overseas. What he "recalls"
doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

No one, to my knowledge, has come forward to say they saw Bush after Mid- 1972.

Walt

[Dave Holford]

ArtKramr wrote:
>
> >Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
> >From: (BUFDRVR)
> >Date: 7/12/2004 3:26 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >ArtKramr wrote:
> >
> >>You must be unusually brilliant.
> >
> >Hardly.
> >
> >>Do you know gat operation Casy Jones was in WW
> >>II?
> >
> >I plead ignorance on that one. Operation Market Garden and of course Overlord
> >are the only named operations of WWII I know off the top of my cranium.
> >
> >
> >BUFDRVR
> >
>
> The day the war ended we fitted our Marauders with 10X10 Fairschild mapping
> cameras and started flying mapping missions deep into Russian territory with
> the cameras rolling.. That was Operation Casey Jones. In all thse years I have
> never heard a single reference to it by any historian or in any text. It was a
> secret of the cold war that was never revealed. I piled up the hours, but
> couldn't call them combat hours so I stand pat with my 250 out of 1100..For
> everyone who thinks they can read a book and all will be revealed, forget it.
> There is much that will never be revealed in books. If those who lived it never
> reveal it, it will be lost to history forever
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Art,

Sounds like you've been reading the discussion on the Army/Airforce
Discussion Board.

Here is an extract from a recent posting:

"Yes, the summer 1945 overflight of Europe was called "Operation Casey
Jones." This mission was a mapping project, the overflight of "Occupied
Germany and territories occupied by Germany" to update maps. Thus the
B-17s were stripped of armament to gain altitude for their 'straight
runs' for mapping.

This is what is said in the released documents in the USAF archives in
1979."

Dave

[Ian MacLure]

"D. Strang" > wrote in
news:RCDIc.23225$r3.18727@okepread03:

[snip]

> The guy was a fricking Governor, for Christ's sakes. You think people
> just vote for anyone?

Kinda a real bad example, Slick was, after all, a gubner.
Course he was also a pot smokin, prevaricatin', philanderin',
swindlin', draft-dodgin' sumbitch.

But.... I digress.

IBM

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[D. Strang]

"Ian MacLure" > wrote
> "D. Strang" > wrote
>
> [snip]
>
> > The guy was a fricking Governor, for Christ's sakes. You think people
> > just vote for anyone?
>
> Kinda a real bad example, Slick was, after all, a gubner.
> Course he was also a pot smokin, prevaricatin', philanderin',
> swindlin', draft-dodgin' sumbitch.
>
> But.... I digress.

My point was, no one gave a **** (the people who voted) about his military
record, and no one (the people who voted) cared about Bush, or I predict,
anyone else's military records. Unless they were convicted of some crime,
the public could care less what you did in the service. That's the crap for
historians, and TV programs to sell soap.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
>
> Not to be difficult, but the T-39 Sabreliner was made by Rockwell.
>


North American Aviation, Inc., merged with Rockwell Standard Corporation and
became North American Rockwell Corporation in September 1967. I believe
North American had completed production of the T-39 series by that time.

[Jack]

WalterM140 wrote:

> Can you show a source that Bush did volunteer for duty overseas?
> Because in February, 1968, he declined to do so.

What possible difference could it make? I doubt that the majority of
rated officers on active duty during those years did specifically
volunteer for Viet Nam.

I did specifically volunteer, and even received an assignment that I
requested, so maybe you liberals will nominate me for President at the
upcoming convention, eh? Or if not me, then Ed Rasimus certainly.

Oh wait, I forgot: you only support people who volunteer to lead public
demonstrations against their own government, and who are revered by our
enemies for their voluntary assistance.


Jack

[Jack]

ArtKramr wrote:

> The day the war ended we fitted our Marauders with 10X10 Fairschild mapping
> cameras and started flying mapping missions deep into Russian territory with
> the cameras rolling.. That was Operation Casey Jones. In all thse years I have
> never heard a single reference to it by any historian or in any text. It was a
> secret of the cold war that was never revealed.

Now that's interesting, Art -- just the sort of input this newsgroup needs.


Jack

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: Jack
>Date: 7/13/2004 9:44 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>
>> The day the war ended we fitted our Marauders with 10X10 Fairschild mapping
>> cameras and started flying mapping missions deep into Russian territory
>with
>> the cameras rolling.. That was Operation Casey Jones. In all thse years I
>have
>> never heard a single reference to it by any historian or in any text. It
>was a
>> secret of the cold war that was never revealed.
>
>Now that's interesting, Art -- just the sort of input this newsgroup needs.
>
>
>Jack
>

Yeah. We ought to get back to military aviation.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Fred the Red Shirt]

(WalterM140) wrote in message >...
>
> > Bush recalls that toward the end of his training, he
> > volunteered for the "Palace Alert" program
>
> Contemporary proof, please.

Proof of what, exactly? You miss the point entirely. Even if,
contrary to reason, we accept hsi word that he volunteered for the
Palace Alert program, it is still a lie to claim that he volunteered
for Vietnam somce the Palace Alert program did not send F 102 pilots
to Vietnam.

....
> No one, to my knowledge, has come forward to say they saw
> Bush after Mid- 1972.
>

To the contrary, lots of folks claim to have seen Bush after mid-1972.
Most recently (contemporary proof), and most unfortunately, he has
been seen in and around the White House.

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

Dweezil Dwarftosser > wrote in message >...
....
>
> The smart guys filled in all the blocks with countries to which
> they couldn't be assigned... they had volunteered, but not been
> selected for any location in the world.

How woud it come about that a person couldn't be assigned to some
particular country?

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

Dweezil Dwarftosser > wrote in message >...
....
>
> The smart guys filled in all the blocks with countries to which
> they couldn't be assigned... they had volunteered, but not been
> selected for any location in the world.

How woud it come about that a person couldn't be assigned to some
particular country?

--

FF

[ian maclure]

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:47:57 +0000, ArtKramr wrote:

[snip]

> Yeah. We ought to get back to military aviation.

OK.
I can't imagine our friends in the Soviet Air Force were all that
happy about you folks swanning around their area of influence
taking pictures and to put it mildly they were not ones for observing
proprieties when they felt their interests needed protecting.
Did they ever try to seriously interfere with the effrot?

IBM

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[Fred the Red Shirt]

Mike Williamson > wrote in message >...
>
>
> Of course he knew about the Golf Courses- he volunteered for
> deployment to Vietnam, as you have known for some time, as it came
> up several times in the newspapers, these forums, and even
> television news.
>

Nonsense.

http://www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm

Bush recalls that toward the end of his training, he
volunteered for the "Palace Alert" program ...
In any event,
he couldn't have been sent to Southeast Asia to take
part in the Vietnam War, at least not to fly a Delta
Dagger: the F-102 detachments in Vietnam and Thailand
were shut down in December 1969, before Bush got his wings.

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

Mike Marron > wrote in message >...
> (ArtKramr) wrote:
> >>Mike Williamson wrote:
>
> >>The volunteering for deployment in the F-102 was covered quite
> >>some time ago- during the 2000 Presidential campaign, as I recall..
>
> >The man didn't want to fight. End of story.
>
> All that truly matters is that the man wants to fight NOW. End of
> story.

I think it matters a bit that we were attacked by Saudi Arabians,
led by a Saudi Arabian exiled to Afghanistan and he wants to fight
Iraq.

Let's elect a President with a better grasp of geography.

And while we're at it, no more oil barons in the White House.

No more chicken-hawks in the Pentagon.

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

(Smartace11) wrote in message >...
>
>
> Why is that a point worth debating?


It is only worth debating when someone makes a claim beyond historical
reality.

> ...
> You guys are trying to put way too much spin in this.
> GWB followed a path that
> others that I knew did either by choice, political
> influence, or luck of the
> draw. Algore clearly did the same with his assignment
> as a press officer.

The fact that Al Gore could read and write probably helped but
your point is well made.

>
> To me the only thing that is totally unfathomable is why a decorated Vietnam
> vet would hook up with the likes of Jane Fonda and her crowd to protest the war
> unless it was to gain political traction under a Republican president.
>

Politics does make for strange bedfellows. But also keep in in mind
when it was that Kerry left the Vietnam Veterans Against the War to
run for office.

--

FF

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: "ian maclure"
>Date: 7/13/2004 2:58 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:47:57 +0000, ArtKramr wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> Yeah. We ought to get back to military aviation.
>
> OK.
> I can't imagine our friends in the Soviet Air Force were all that
> happy about you folks swanning around their area of influence
> taking pictures and to put it mildly they were not ones for observing
> proprieties when they felt their interests needed protecting.
> Did they ever try to seriously interfere with the effrot?
>
> IBM
>
>
Nope. Never saw a Russian plane in the aior even once. I give thanks for little
favors.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ian maclure]

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:27:30 +0000, ArtKramr wrote:

[snip]

> Nope. Never saw a Russian plane in the aior even once. I give thanks for little
> favors.

Odd. Of course it might have been they hadn't decided how
dog in the manger they wanted to be at that point.

IBM

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[ian maclure]

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:16:42 -0700, Fred the Red Shirt wrote:

[snip]

>
> I think it matters a bit that we were attacked by Saudi Arabians,
> led by a Saudi Arabian exiled to Afghanistan and he wants to fight
> Iraq.

By that logic we ought to have attacked Austria before
dealing with Germany "because he vas Austrian you know"

In case you hadn't noticed the Jihadis and Islamists
come in any number of hues and complexions.

The only attractive feature your theory has is that it
buttresses my contention we ought to nuke Marin County.

> Let's elect a President with a better grasp of geography.

We elected a President whose grasp of the strategic situation
means we aren't hunkered down by the rat holes those jihadi
clowns would have bolted down had we not acted as it played
out. Iraq was unfinished business. Prior to 9/11 we just gritted
our teeth and carried on. After 9/11 the situation was vastly
different and Iraq as it was could no longer be tolerated.
And speaking of Jihadi scum....
Another one surrendered today. Sounds like progress to me.

> And while we're at it, no more oil barons in the White House.

Better an oil baron than a pot-smokin, prevaricatin',
philanderin', draft-dogin', swindlin', sexually harrassin'
shyster and his psycho killer shrew of a wife.

> No more chicken-hawks in the Pentagon.

Why not, seems to me they are doing a reasonable job.
And besides it annoys the Dumbocreeps.

IBM

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[Mike Williamson]

Fred the Red Shirt wrote:
> Dweezil Dwarftosser > wrote in message >...
> ....
>
>>The smart guys filled in all the blocks with countries to which
>>they couldn't be assigned... they had volunteered, but not been
>>selected for any location in the world.
>
>
> How woud it come about that a person couldn't be assigned to some
> particular country?
>

There are many countries to which there are no military personnel of
certain specialties assigned- e.g. no US Army M113 maintenance
specialists assigned to the American Embassy in China (but which you
COULD list on your preference form). If your specialty wasn't posted
to a specific country, then listing that country was in essence
volunteering to not go there, and there are typically enough "not there"
places to volunteer to go so as to not leave any slots open (which,
under the system, would essentially be an "I just want to go whereever
you think I should" entry). Besides, if they did somehow come up with
a slot for your specialty in that country, you likely did your homework
and picked a country that you figured you might actually want to be
stationed in...

Mike Williamson
USAF

[B2431]

>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>Date: 7/13/2004 9:13 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: t>
>
>
>"B2431" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Not to be difficult, but the T-39 Sabreliner was made by Rockwell.
>>
>
>
>North American Aviation, Inc., merged with Rockwell Standard Corporation and
>became North American Rockwell Corporation in September 1967. I believe
>North American had completed production of the T-39 series by that time.

I stand corrected. For some reason I was thinking there was a Rockwell logo on
the horn button. Now I'm not sure.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[WalterM140]

>> > Bush recalls that toward the end of his training, he
>> > volunteered for the "Palace Alert" program
>>
>> Contemporary proof, please.
>
>Proof of what, exactly? You miss the point entirely.

The -point- is that someone said Bush volunteered for overseas service.

I'd be glad of some proof of that.

Walt

[D. Strang]

"WalterM140" > wrote
>
> The -point- is

The point is, Bush is the President, has been for close to 4 years, and
no one except you gives a **** about what happened when he was 19,
just as we don't care about anyone who is 19, unless they have something
interesting to say about aviation, or an aviation experience. Since you've
never been in the military, and have never been a pilot, crewmember, or
crew chief, I don't see what point you could have that is anywhere close
to being interesting.

[WalterM140]

>> The point is that someone said that Bush volunteered for Viet Nam, but
>> there is a document extant that shows he -did-not- volunteer for
>> overseas assignment at one point.
>
> Rather than claiming you have a list of those who didn't volunteer
> for Vietnam,


I never claimed that. I asked for the person who said Bush volunteered for
Viet Nam to prove it.

Maybe he did, but no one has shown any reasonable proof of it.

Walt

[WalterM140]

>>>>The point is that someone said that Bush volunteered for Viet Nam,
>>>>but there is
>>>>a document extant that shows he -did-not- volunteer for overseas
>>>>assignment at
>>>>one point.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Why is that a point worth debating?
>>
>> It seems to be a false statement.
>
> The part about not volunteering certainly is.

Bush apparently did not volunteer for Viet Nam. Someone here said he did.

> You seem to think that he was under some obligation to transfer
> to the regular Air Force ASAP. No such obligation existed.
>

Not at all. And joining the Air Guard and flying F-102's would have been a
perfectly acceptable way to serve.

The problem with Bush's service is that there is strong circumstantial evidence
that he didn't participate for the last two years of his service.

I got an e-mail from the guy doing the research on Awolbush.com.

I was wrong about the one document that shows no entry between 26 May '72 and 1
Oct 73. Although it looks identical to documents in the Marine Corps, it did
not serve the same function. It's an AF form 11. Reserve points were not
shown. Further, that form was no longer used after 1 May, 73.

The new link on www.awolbush.com has strong circumstantial evidence that Bush
actually -was- declared a deserter and that the documentation that should have
followed from that has been destroyed, as has been the paperwork on the
mandatory inquiry on Bush's grounding.

Surely some of the former Air Force pilots who post here are wondering about
this.

What little I know indcates that most pilots will do about anything to keep
flying and stay current in their aircraft. This didn't seem to be a factor for
Bush.

When you think that Bush is an untreated alcohlic even now, it's not much of a
stretch to think he found cocaine more alluring that flying back in 1972.

Walt

[ian maclure]

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:30:04 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:

[snip]

> Not at all. And joining the Air Guard and flying F-102's would have been a
> perfectly acceptable way to serve.

Which is what happened.

> The problem with Bush's service is that there is strong circumstantial evidence
> that he didn't participate for the last two years of his service.

Look we've told you before. Some whacko channeling Ho Chi Minh is not a
relaible source.

> I got an e-mail from the guy doing the research on Awolbush.com.

Now there's an unbiased source.

> I was wrong about the one document that shows no entry between 26 May '72 and 1
> Oct 73. Although it looks identical to documents in the Marine Corps, it did
> not serve the same function. It's an AF form 11. Reserve points were not
> shown. Further, that form was no longer used after 1 May, 73.

Earth to Walt, D'uh!

> The new link on www.awolbush.com has strong circumstantial evidence that Bush
> actually -was- declared a deserter and that the documentation that should have

Gee, what a surprise. I guess you have to come up with new garbage
since the previous stuff is well past its use by date.

> followed from that has been destroyed, as has been the paperwork on the
> mandatory inquiry on Bush's grounding.

Oh really. Proof that this fictitious deocumentation of a fictitious
requirement actually existed?

> Surely some of the former Air Force pilots who post here are wondering about
> this.

Guys?

> What little I know indcates that most pilots will do about anything to keep
> flying and stay current in their aircraft. This didn't seem to be a factor for
> Bush.

Depends. I have an elderly relative who was a C-54 driver in WWII.
Flew all over the Pacific including into disputed airstrips. Lost
a copilot to a Japanese fighter attack ( one of two he endured )
and had 20 feet or so of the top of his airplane blown off by
artillery while on the ground. When, he stepped off the airplane
for the last time in 1947 ( he was pilot for the US UN delegation
post war ) he never again flew under his own steam. I expect he
wasn't the only one who did this.

> When you think that Bush is an untreated alcohlic even now, it's not much of a
> stretch to think he found cocaine more alluring that flying back in 1972.

Now why would I think that?
Are you projecting?

IBM

> Walt


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[ian maclure]

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:19:17 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:

[snip]

> Maybe he did, but no one has shown any reasonable proof of it.

Please to define "reasonable proof" in an unambigouous
way. It would help if the kind of proof you want was the
kind that ought ( in a standard procedural sense ) to exist.

IBM

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[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
>From: "ian maclure"
>Date: 7/19/2004 10:20 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:19:17 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> Maybe he did, but no one has shown any reasonable proof of it.
>
> Please to define "reasonable proof" in an unambigouous
> way. It would help if the kind of proof you want was the
> kind that ought ( in a standard procedural sense ) to exist.
>
> IBM
>

The word"reasonable" is in itself ambigious


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[BUFDRVR]

>What little I know indcates that most pilots will do about anything to keep
>flying and stay current in their aircraft.

The key word is *most*. There are pilots, and their actions I'll admit confound
me, that just want to be pilots because the Chief of Staff has always been a
pilot. I know several guys who got to a staff job as quick as they could and
only plan on returning to fly long enough to punch the squadron commander
ticket and then head back to staff. They're goals and desires are the exact
opposite of mine, but their service to this country is no less honarable than
anyone else.

>This didn't seem to be a factor for
>Bush.

Perhaps he wasn't interested in becoming an airline pilot or logging 5,000
hours. Unless your goal is one of those two, why would you attempt to keep
flying?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Mike Marron]

(BUFDRVR) wrote:

>Perhaps he wasn't interested in becoming an airline pilot or logging 5,000
>hours. Unless your goal is one of those two, why would you attempt to keep
>flying?

Answer: A pilot bud whom happens to be quite a bit older than me
used to fly the F-4S off carriers and now flies 767's for Delta says
that he can't wait to go off duty so that he can fly the light stuff
(he has a hangar chock full of cool light sport aircraft, including a
trike, or "kite").

He's still a bachelor, but hasn't slept with a nice looking stew since
the '80's. And since 9/11, he said that things just went from bad to
horrible. He still earns over $4000 per month, however, he may be
forced to retire early lest he lose 80-percent of his retirement
pension.

[Billy Preston]

"Mike Marron" > wrote
>
> Answer: A pilot bud whom happens to be quite a bit older than me
> used to fly the F-4S off carriers and now flies 767's for Delta says
> that he can't wait to go off duty so that he can fly the light stuff
> (he has a hangar chock full of cool light sport aircraft, including a
> trike, or "kite").

A pilot bud of mine just retired, but when he got done with his rotation,
he spent all of his time working on his hot rods, and his rental properties
in several states. The only reason he kept flying was to retire, but he
said his last four years have been very hard, because he really can't
stand modern transports, as they put him to sleep. He didn't like a lot
of his crew mates, because they always smelled of alcohol, or had no
interest in flying except the high pay and the trophy-wife upkeep.

I asked him if he would ever try to land with a thunderstorm over the
runway like the American pilots in Little Rock, and he said he would
never have left Dallas, but 90% of his crew mates would probably
make the run, as they had no regard for the SLUG's in back (Self-
Loading Undesirable Goats).

He said that his USAF flying was very exciting, but civilian transports
was pretty much the pits. The difference is the military guys have a
mission outside of just flying. Moving aircraft to a battle, is much more
intense than moving aircraft to another hub. Plus there was additional
duties that were just as challenging, and the respect one had from the
troops. In the airline business, you're just another union ******* who
keeps the mob fresh in cash.

[Jack]

Mike Marron wrote:

> Answer: A pilot bud whom happens to be quite a bit older than me
> used to fly the F-4S off carriers and now flies 767's for Delta....

[....]

> ...still earns over $4000 per month....

That would be per _week_, MM.



Jack

[Mike Marron]

>Jack > wrote:
>>Mike Marron wrote:

>>Answer: A pilot bud whom happens to be quite a bit older than me
>>used to fly the F-4S off carriers and now flies 767's for Delta....

>> ...still earns over $4000 per month....

>That would be per _week_, MM.

Nope, according to him it's only 4K per mo. But that's by choice since
it seems he's almost always off-duty playing with his toys and doing
other stuff. Don't get me wrong, he once showed me an offer in writing
that a real estate agent gave for one of his properties in Southern
California. No doubt the guy is a millionaire, but he deeply hates
his job as would I if I flew for the airlines in this day and age.
Moolah's nice, but it ain't everything.

[Ed Rasimus]

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:34:00 GMT, Mike Marron >
wrote:

>>Jack > wrote:
>>>Mike Marron wrote:
>
>>>Answer: A pilot bud whom happens to be quite a bit older than me
>>>used to fly the F-4S off carriers and now flies 767's for Delta....
>
>>> ...still earns over $4000 per month....
>
>>That would be per _week_, MM.
>
>Nope, according to him it's only 4K per mo. But that's by choice since
>it seems he's almost always off-duty playing with his toys and doing
>other stuff. Don't get me wrong, he once showed me an offer in writing
>that a real estate agent gave for one of his properties in Southern
>California. No doubt the guy is a millionaire, but he deeply hates
>his job as would I if I flew for the airlines in this day and age.
>Moolah's nice, but it ain't everything.

Sorry, Mike, but if your bud is telling the truth about flying 76's
for Delta, he's doing $4K/week not month. Not even the yesterday hire
FE on a Fokker is making as little as$48K/year.

Old F-105 bud of mine just retired (mandatory) last year from Delta
after flying 747-400s. I asked him how he was doing and he said he'd
been making $350-375K/yr, but he did weekend and holiday standby
reserve which paid double-time so he tweaked his annual up closer to
$450K.

If you can say "no doubt the guy is a millionaire" you probably gotta
recognize he didn't get there on $48K/yr.

Unless he's paying alimony to several trophies....

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Ron]

>
>Nope, according to him it's only 4K per mo. But that's by choice since
>it seems he's almost always off-duty playing with his toys and doing
>other stuff. Don't get me wrong, he once showed me an offer in writing
>that a real estate agent gave for one of his properties in Southern
>California. No doubt the guy is a millionaire, but he deeply hates
>his job as would I if I flew for the airlines in this day and age.
>Moolah's nice, but it ain't everything.
>

They have an hourly guarantee that is far far far above that. Maybe 14K per
month, but there
is not any Delta pilot who is currently flying for them making that little.




Ron
PA-31T Cheyenne II
Maharashtra Weather Modification Program
Pune, India

[Brett]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:34:00 GMT, Mike Marron >
> wrote:
>
> >>Jack > wrote:
> >>>Mike Marron wrote:
> >
> >>>Answer: A pilot bud whom happens to be quite a bit older than me
> >>>used to fly the F-4S off carriers and now flies 767's for Delta....
> >
> >>> ...still earns over $4000 per month....
> >
> >>That would be per _week_, MM.
> >
> >Nope, according to him it's only 4K per mo. But that's by choice since
> >it seems he's almost always off-duty playing with his toys and doing
> >other stuff. Don't get me wrong, he once showed me an offer in writing
> >that a real estate agent gave for one of his properties in Southern
> >California. No doubt the guy is a millionaire, but he deeply hates
> >his job as would I if I flew for the airlines in this day and age.
> >Moolah's nice, but it ain't everything.
>
> Sorry, Mike, but if your bud is telling the truth about flying 76's
> for Delta, he's doing $4K/week not month. Not even the yesterday hire
> FE on a Fokker is making as little as$48K/year.

Those flying for Delta Connection probably do.

> Old F-105 bud of mine just retired (mandatory) last year from Delta
> after flying 747-400s.

He wasn't flying for Delta if he was in 747-400's, Delta's equipment
includes 777's, 767-200/-300/-400, MD-11, 757-200 .... The top of the heap
at Delta should be on 777's and 767-300ER/-400ER's

> I asked him how he was doing and he said he'd
> been making $350-375K/yr, but he did weekend and holiday standby
> reserve which paid double-time so he tweaked his annual up closer to
> $450K.
>
> If you can say "no doubt the guy is a millionaire" you probably gotta
> recognize he didn't get there on $48K/yr.
>
> Unless he's paying alimony to several trophies....
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> Smithsonian Institution Press
> ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Ed Rasimus]

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:22:04 -0400, "Brett" >
wrote:

>"Ed Rasimus" > wrote:
>>
>> Sorry, Mike, but if your bud is telling the truth about flying 76's
>> for Delta, he's doing $4K/week not month. Not even the yesterday hire
>> FE on a Fokker is making as little as$48K/year.
>
>Those flying for Delta Connection probably do.

Well, just to ping you, since you ping me on equipment below, Delta
Connection isn't operating 76's.
>
>> Old F-105 bud of mine just retired (mandatory) last year from Delta
>> after flying 747-400s.
>
>He wasn't flying for Delta if he was in 747-400's, Delta's equipment
>includes 777's, 767-200/-300/-400, MD-11, 757-200 .... The top of the heap
>at Delta should be on 777's and 767-300ER/-400ER's

Musta been 767-400ER since he was doing the Trans-Lant runs out of
Atlanta. Cal Tax, mentioned in Fast Movers by John Sherwood. Flew his
F-105 tour out of Tahkli in '67. Still comes to River Rats most every
year. First class guy.

It's a job that never interested me. Guess money wasn't that
important. But, if I had it to do over again, I might have made a
different choice....nahh!



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Brett]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:22:04 -0400, "Brett" >
> wrote:
>
> >"Ed Rasimus" > wrote:
> >>
> >> Sorry, Mike, but if your bud is telling the truth about flying 76's
> >> for Delta, he's doing $4K/week not month. Not even the yesterday hire
> >> FE on a Fokker is making as little as$48K/year.
> >
> >Those flying for Delta Connection probably do.
>
> Well, just to ping you, since you ping me on equipment below, Delta
> Connection isn't operating 76's.

Except my remark here was related to the comment about "yesterday hire FE on
a Fokker" who do probably make a lot less than $48K.

> >> Old F-105 bud of mine just retired (mandatory) last year from Delta
> >> after flying 747-400s.
> >
> >He wasn't flying for Delta if he was in 747-400's, Delta's equipment
> >includes 777's, 767-200/-300/-400, MD-11, 757-200 .... The top of the
heap
> >at Delta should be on 777's and 767-300ER/-400ER's
>
> Musta been 767-400ER since he was doing the Trans-Lant runs out of
> Atlanta. Cal Tax, mentioned in Fast Movers by John Sherwood. Flew his
> F-105 tour out of Tahkli in '67. Still comes to River Rats most every
> year. First class guy.
>
> It's a job that never interested me. Guess money wasn't that
> important. But, if I had it to do over again, I might have made a
> different choice....nahh!
>
>
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> Smithsonian Institution Press
> ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Ed Rasimus]

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:03:43 -0400, "Brett" >
wrote:

>"Ed Rasimus" > wrote:
>> On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:22:04 -0400, "Brett" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >"Ed Rasimus" > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Sorry, Mike, but if your bud is telling the truth about flying 76's
>> >> for Delta, he's doing $4K/week not month. Not even the yesterday hire
>> >> FE on a Fokker is making as little as$48K/year.
>> >
>> >Those flying for Delta Connection probably do.
>>
>> Well, just to ping you, since you ping me on equipment below, Delta
>> Connection isn't operating 76's.
>
>Except my remark here was related to the comment about "yesterday hire FE on
>a Fokker" who do probably make a lot less than $48K.

So, it's gonna be that way, huh? Dunno if Delta flies Fokkers at all,
but the only Fokkers I know about in US service don't have FEs at all.

I was simply suggesting that $4k/month is a mighty low wage for any
driver at a major carrier.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Brett]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:03:43 -0400, "Brett" >
> wrote:
>
> >"Ed Rasimus" > wrote:
> >> On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:22:04 -0400, "Brett" >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >"Ed Rasimus" > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Sorry, Mike, but if your bud is telling the truth about flying 76's
> >> >> for Delta, he's doing $4K/week not month. Not even the yesterday
hire
> >> >> FE on a Fokker is making as little as$48K/year.
> >> >
> >> >Those flying for Delta Connection probably do.
> >>
> >> Well, just to ping you, since you ping me on equipment below, Delta
> >> Connection isn't operating 76's.
> >
> >Except my remark here was related to the comment about "yesterday hire FE
on
> >a Fokker" who do probably make a lot less than $48K.
>
> So, it's gonna be that way, huh?

I didn't mean it to sound "that way".

> Dunno if Delta flies Fokkers at all,

They don't.

> but the only Fokkers I know about in US service don't have FEs at all.

I don't believe any of the major US carriers have any current equipment now
that actually has FE stations.

> I was simply suggesting that $4k/month is a mighty low wage for any
> driver at a major carrier.

Well I know one Air Force Major who left the service a few years ago to take
a position at US Airways and his initial salary from what he said was going
to be good deal lower than his Air Force pay.
The local Atlanta newspaper had an article earlier this year about Delta
managements demands for pay concessions by the pilots and the quoted
starting salaries for pilots at Delta (not the Connection) was $45,000 (most
of those would have already have been laid off at the time of the article).
For the senior pilots (ANG trained pilots who after their initial training
commitment could start work at any airline, would normally have the longest
time with the company) the pay and benefits were excellent, but the large
number of those pilots taking retirement in the last 18 months is one of the
reasons (to guarantee their lump sum pension payout incase Delta takes
Chapter 11) why Delta's quoted loss was $2B this week.

[Mike Marron]

>Ed Rasimus > wrote:

>Sorry, Mike, but if your bud is telling the truth about flying 76's
>for Delta, he's doing $4K/week not month. Not even the yesterday hire
>FE on a Fokker is making as little as$48K/year.

>Old F-105 bud of mine just retired (mandatory) last year from Delta
>after flying 747-400s. I asked him how he was doing and he said he'd
>been making $350-375K/yr, but he did weekend and holiday standby
>reserve which paid double-time so he tweaked his annual up closer to
>$450K.

>If you can say "no doubt the guy is a millionaire" you probably gotta
>recognize he didn't get there on $48K/yr.

>Unless he's paying alimony to several trophies....

According to my friend (whom, BTW, is a Cap'n on the 767) most
people *grossly* overestimate how much airline pilots actually
earn these days.

All I know is that I was a Part 135 (cargo) pilot for a while and
would've thought I had died and gone to heaven if they paid
ME $4K per month!

I'm sure nothing tops what you've done, Ed, but if ya' can't do that,
ya can't beat flying just for the sheer enjoyment of flying. And the
lighter the better...

[Brett]

"Mike Marron" > wrote:
> >Ed Rasimus > wrote:
>
> >Sorry, Mike, but if your bud is telling the truth about flying 76's
> >for Delta, he's doing $4K/week not month. Not even the yesterday hire
> >FE on a Fokker is making as little as$48K/year.
>
> >Old F-105 bud of mine just retired (mandatory) last year from Delta
> >after flying 747-400s. I asked him how he was doing and he said he'd
> >been making $350-375K/yr, but he did weekend and holiday standby
> >reserve which paid double-time so he tweaked his annual up closer to
> >$450K.
>
> >If you can say "no doubt the guy is a millionaire" you probably gotta
> >recognize he didn't get there on $48K/yr.
>
> >Unless he's paying alimony to several trophies....
>
> According to my friend (whom, BTW, is a Cap'n on the 767) most
> people *grossly* overestimate how much airline pilots actually
> earn these days.

From:

http://www.willflyforfood.cc/Payscales/PayScales.htm

A Delta B-757/B767 Captain (same cockpit) working the minimum 65 hours a
month at $243/hr should gross $15,795/month

> All I know is that I was a Part 135 (cargo) pilot for a while and
> would've thought I had died and gone to heaven if they paid
> ME $4K per month!
>
> I'm sure nothing tops what you've done, Ed, but if ya' can't do that,
> ya can't beat flying just for the sheer enjoyment of flying. And the
> lighter the better...

[Mike Marron]

>"Brett" > wrote:

>From:

>http://www.willflyforfood.cc/Payscales/PayScales.htm

>A Delta B-757/B767 Captain (same cockpit) working the minimum 65 hours a
>month at $243/hr should gross $15,795/month

Thanks. I'll ask my friend about this next time I have him on the
phone and let ya know shortly exactly what he said.

[Jack]

Mike Marron wrote:

> According to my friend (whom, BTW, is a Cap'n on the 767) most
> people *grossly* overestimate how much airline pilots actually
> earn these days.

And then there's the old airline pilot story about the guy who never
told his wife about the raises that come, not only with longevity, but
also with bigger equipment, and moving up a seat.

After 15 years she still thought he made only $4,000 a month.



Jack

[Mike Marron]

>Jack > wrote:
>>Mike Marron wrote:

>>According to my friend (whom, BTW, is a Cap'n on the 767) most
>>people *grossly* overestimate how much airline pilots actually
>>earn these days.

>And then there's the old airline pilot story about the guy who never
>told his wife about the raises that come, not only with longevity, but
>also with bigger equipment, and moving up a seat.

Heh.

(You forgot to mention the story about the guy who never told his
trophy about the wage and benefit cuts, furloughs, defaulting pension
plans, etc. as her hubby's non-performing, money grubbin' union
airline plummets into Chapter 11 bankruptcy...)

>After 15 years she still thought he made only $4,000 a month.

Only? According to the Department of Labor statistics, the median
monthly income of *full-time* workers in the U.S. is roughly half
that.

[Jack]

Mike Marron wrote:
>>Jack > wrote:

>>After 15 years she still thought he made only $4,000 a month.
>
>
> Only? According to the Department of Labor statistics, the median
> monthly income of *full-time* workers in the U.S. is roughly half
> that.

Let them eat cake, and fly ultralights. ;>


Jack