Soverignty Protection Fighter

[Charles Talleyrand]

Can someone comment on the best aircraft for this job? My gut suggests that among the
planes a nation might be able to buy the best might be something like a Mig-21 or Q-5
Fantan with western radar or an F-5 (if they are available).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


WHAT IS A SOVERIGNTY PROTECTION FIGHTER?

It's a fighter that is available to political leaders to contest challenges to
the nations borders. They are not expected to engage in combat in the normal
course of operations.

WHAT ARE EXAMPLES?

During the cold war when Russian Bears would come close to Alaska, we
would send up fighters not to shoot them down, but just to remind them that
we protect Alaskan airspace.

Sometimes the pricipal purpose of the fighter is sovergnity protection. No
one expectsBrazil, Switzerland, or New Zealand's fighters to engage in air-air
combat. Instead we expect them to be available to political leaders and to
enforce border security and sometimes anti-drug operations.

WHAT ARE THE DESIGN REQUIREMENTS

They should be able to catch opposing aircraft, typically at high-subsonic
speed and high altitude. At minimum there are lots of business aircraft that
can do Mach 0.9 at 50,000 feet.

They should be able to find the target aircraft. A radar with moderate range is
needed. Typically this radar will not face enemy jamming.

They should have reasonable endurance. Escorting an target aircraft
might require a half-hour or more beyond the flight to and from the
intercept point.

They should have a weapons system. Short range weapons systems are fine.
Guns are fine.

And ABOVE ALL ELSE, they should be low in total systems cost.

[Urban Fredriksson]

In article >,
Charles Talleyrand > wrote:

> No
>one expects [...] or New Zealand's fighters to engage in air-air
>combat.

Especially since they don't have any.
--
Urban Fredriksson
Military aviation; Swedish military aviation
http://www.canit.se/%7Egriffon/aviation/
Weblog http://www.canit.se/%7Egriffon/aviation/avblog.html

[Keith Willshaw]

"Charles Talleyrand" > wrote in message
...
> Can someone comment on the best aircraft for this job? My gut suggests
that among the
> planes a nation might be able to buy the best might be something like a
Mig-21 or Q-5
> Fantan with western radar or an F-5 (if they are available).
>

Neither seem a good choice being short on range , lacking room
for a good radar and having high operational costs. These are
after all 1960's era aircraft

The Saab Grippen or Mig-29 would seem a better choice.

Keith

[TJ]

"Charles Talleyrand" > wrote in message >...
> Can someone comment on the best aircraft for this job? My gut suggests that among the
> planes a nation might be able to buy the best might be something like a Mig-21 or Q-5
> Fantan with western radar or an F-5 (if they are available).
>
> >
> Sometimes the pricipal purpose of the fighter is sovergnity protection. No
> one expectsBrazil, Switzerland, or New Zealand's fighters to engage in air-air
> combat. Instead we expect them to be available to political leaders and to
> enforce border security and sometimes anti-drug operations.

>No one expectsBrazil, Switzerland, or New Zealand's fighters to
engage in air->air combat.

Why not? The Royal New Zealand Air Force has retired all its A-4s and
MB339s without replacement. They have no fighter capability. Brazil
has postponed its new fighter choice but listed the F-16, Gripen,
Mirage 2000, Su-35 and MiG-29 as candidates. Due to cost it is likely
that they will either lease or buy used aircraft. The Swiss train
regularly in air combat. Due to restricted airspace they use the North
Sea trainiing ranges supported by British Aerospace at RAF Waddington,
Lincolnshire in England. The Swiss use F/A-18s and F-5s.

http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/hangar/1999/swiss/acmi.htm

Picture of Swiss Hornet fitted out with range instrumentation pod:

http://www.warplane.co.uk/Nomad/n36.jpg

[DJFawcett26]

>Can someone comment on the best aircraft for this job?

Possibly the upcoming military version of the Javelin being developed by ATG.

[robert arndt]

(DJFawcett26) wrote in message >...
> >Can someone comment on the best aircraft for this job?
>
> Possibly the upcoming military version of the Javelin being developed by ATG.

ATG Javelin photo:
http://www.twocommas.ca/collections/aircraft/ATG-Javelin-front-left.jpg

Personally, I'd just wait for the EADS Mako...

Rob

[Ian]

"robert arndt" > wrote in message
om...
> (DJFawcett26) wrote in message
>...
> > >Can someone comment on the best aircraft for this job?
> >
> > Possibly the upcoming military version of the Javelin being developed by
ATG.
>
> ATG Javelin photo:
> http://www.twocommas.ca/collections/aircraft/ATG-Javelin-front-left.jpg
>
> Personally, I'd just wait for the EADS Mako...
>
> Rob

Has the Mako flown yet? Just remembering the hoohaa raised in the UK when
the AJT was being decided. Obviously the Hawk 128 won, but a lot of people
wanted the Mako above the italian option..

[Eunometic]

"Charles Talleyrand" > wrote in message >...
> Can someone comment on the best aircraft for this job? My gut suggests that among the
> planes a nation might be able to buy the best might be something like a Mig-21 or Q-5
> Fantan with western radar or an F-5 (if they are available).
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> WHAT IS A SOVERIGNTY PROTECTION FIGHTER?

It's sole purpose would seem to be the interception and shooting down
of airliners that have been hijacked and are about to dive into the
whitehouse. Clearly there is a need thousands of these fighters to
carry out millions of interceptions. They will need to be shipped in
pork barells 6 at a time to have maximim effect.

Alternatively a Sopwith camel could be used to patrol the Rio Grande.
Opperation wet back II anyone?

"Soverignty Protection Fighter" is worth less than one world war I
string bag if the "administration" is the real threat to Soveringty
and isn't interested in stopping illegal immigration or denying those
illegal all manner of benefits from education, medical care and
subsidised housing or deportation.




>
> It's a fighter that is available to political leaders to contest challenges to
> the nations borders. They are not expected to engage in combat in the normal
> course of operations.
>
> WHAT ARE EXAMPLES?
>
> During the cold war when Russian Bears would come close to Alaska, we
> would send up fighters not to shoot them down, but just to remind them that
> we protect Alaskan airspace.

The Bear rear gunner used to laugh at Torando pilots: with its drop
tanks on the Tornado a Bear could out accelerate a Tornado and roll
away while the Tornado pilot had to light up his afterburners to keep
up.

A "SPF" would be a similar laughing stock if confronted with a
Backfire or Blackjack.


>
> Sometimes the pricipal purpose of the fighter is sovergnity protection. No
> one expectsBrazil, Switzerland, or New Zealand's fighters to engage in air-air
> combat. Instead we expect them to be available to political leaders and to
> enforce border security and sometimes anti-drug operations.
>
> WHAT ARE THE DESIGN REQUIREMENTS
>
> They should be able to catch opposing aircraft, typically at high-subsonic
> speed and high altitude. At minimum there are lots of business aircraft that
> can do Mach 0.9 at 50,000 feet.
>
> They should be able to find the target aircraft. A radar with moderate range is
> needed. Typically this radar will not face enemy jamming.
>
> They should have reasonable endurance. Escorting an target aircraft
> might require a half-hour or more beyond the flight to and from the
> intercept point.
>
> They should have a weapons system. Short range weapons systems are fine.
> Guns are fine.
>
> And ABOVE ALL ELSE, they should be low in total systems cost.

[robert arndt]

"Ian" > wrote in message >...
> "robert arndt" > wrote in message
> om...
> > (DJFawcett26) wrote in message
> >...
> > > >Can someone comment on the best aircraft for this job?
> > >
> > > Possibly the upcoming military version of the Javelin being developed by
> ATG.
> >
> > ATG Javelin photo:
> > http://www.twocommas.ca/collections/aircraft/ATG-Javelin-front-left.jpg
> >
> > Personally, I'd just wait for the EADS Mako...
> >
> > Rob
>
> Has the Mako flown yet? Just remembering the hoohaa raised in the UK when
> the AJT was being decided. Obviously the Hawk 128 won, but a lot of people
> wanted the Mako above the italian option..


Not yet, but coming up in a year or two. A photo:
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mako/images/eads_mako_6.jpg

Rob

[DJFawcett26]

>Personally, I'd just wait for the EADS Mako...

You will be waiting a long time, the program is dead

[robert arndt]

(DJFawcett26) wrote in message >...
> >Personally, I'd just wait for the EADS Mako...
>
> You will be waiting a long time, the program is dead

No it's not, the aircraft just hasn't flown yet.

http://www.forecast1.com/press/press116.htm

Rob

[Nele VII]

Emmanuel Gustin wrote in message >...
>"Charles Talleyrand" > wrote in message
...
>
>> Can someone comment on the best aircraft for this job?
>
>Austria used the J 35O, armed only with cannon during
>a period because post-WWII treaties banned Austria from
>owning missiles. The goal of interceptions was described
>by pilots as allowing the government to send in a diplomatic
>protest...
>
>Today the best answer would probably be a F-16A without
>updates, from existing USAF stocks in the desert. Not much
>value left to it as a modern combat aircraft, but a good
>performer and spares should not be a problem.
>
>--
>Emmanuel Gustin
>Emmanuel dot Gustin @t skynet dot be
>Flying Guns Books and Site: http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/
>
>

I agree, but give it at least a Sparrow provision. It does not have to be
wired but it would appear more impressive with it :)))) Without medium range
missiles, you would be in the situation that Pakistanis are with their F-16A
vs BVR-equipped Mig-29-12B, Mig-21/93s and Su-30MKK (possibility to be
chased off of station with a lock-on). So at least Sparrow should be
considered ("I have it too, baby!" :)) Or put some kind of CW illuminator.
Or remove the RWR.

Kfir C7 or C9 would be nice, too, especially with the Derby, but be careful
with possible US embargo since you will not get any more J-79s and you will
be forced to ask Russians to get samples of Lylka AL-21s (GE J79-8 copies).
Mirage F-1 is also fine, tried and tested in similar conditions (Greece vs.
Turkey aerial "who's is bigger" competition) and not overly expensive.

"Indian" MiG-21/93 got quite a claws with new radar, cockpit and R-77,
albeit not having substantial range (and -21 is not maintenance-dependent,
it is overhaul-dependent). "They" might be impressed to see such a small
plane is hauling four R-73s on dual launchers, two R-77s and a centerline
drop tank (yeah, I know. "-Drop- tank? You mean, it can be removed?")
Malesian "custom" made MiG-29SE's come to my mind, too. As MAPO-MIG goes,
you will be able to order MiG-29s with leather-covered K-36DM ejection seat,
widescreen TV and the refrigerator. They still don't make convertibles, but
you can get them with folding wings.

If you're a ignorant dictator, have a money to waste, go Saddam's way and
buy MiG-25PD together wit R-40's and drop tanks (a lots of them! :)) from
some of numerous Russian mothball storages. As you are of grandiose and
paranoid type, you will certainly be impressed with its size, masculine
lines and humongous missiles compensating for your small pecker. And you
will be thrilled when see it in afterburner. Heck, you will make their
pilots your pets anyway, they might even do something in the case of the
war!

If you are of nostalgia type and have an urge to make things right, go buy
some Lightnings, but leave at least a 5 year timeframe so your mechanics can
assemble it after GB ravaged them like they belonged to their worst enemies.
Don't forget tankers for aerial refueling! Yeah, no BVR, but you won't
probably know you are targeted either! And they are better choice then
Austria's Drakkens since Drakkens-they look so-well, too plain. No charm.

Which brins us to gentleman/romantic type. F-106 is the best choice I can
remember and some are still at AMARC. I don't know, but those things have
always reminded me to old well-refurbished Cadillacs. Heck, you might get a
pilots with them (no need to call, they will come on their own, mechanics
will follow :))) . The only problem is that you will probably have -the-
oldest fleet in the world in every manner. Italian "Intereceptorosaurus'"
fleet included.

Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA