Parowan Fatal Crash

[ContestID67[_2_]]

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12717073

[Frank Whiteley]

On Jul 1, 10:55*am, ContestID67 > wrote:
> http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12717073

There've been some conflicting reports. This has a bit more detail
http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20090701/NEWS01/907010314/Glider+accident+claims+man+s+life

[Ramy]

On Jul 1, 10:21*am, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
> On Jul 1, 10:55*am, ContestID67 > wrote:
>
> >http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12717073
>
> There've been some conflicting reports. *This has a bit more detailhttp://www.thespectrum.com/article/20090701/NEWS01/907010314/Glider+a...

We are having a horrible year. 2 fatal crashes in 2 US regional
contests one day after the other. Both sounds like the glider suddenly
plummeted to the ground. Very depressing. I hope we will find out one
day why very experienced pilots suddenly loose control and hit the
ground.

Ramy

[[email protected]]

On Jul 1, 1:41*pm, Ramy > wrote:
> On Jul 1, 10:21*am, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
>
> > On Jul 1, 10:55*am, ContestID67 > wrote:
>
> > >http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12717073
>
> > There've been some conflicting reports. *This has a bit more detailhttp://www.thespectrum.com/article/20090701/NEWS01/907010314/Glider+a...
>
> We are having a horrible year. 2 fatal crashes in 2 US regional
> contests one day after the other. Both sounds like the glider suddenly
> plummeted to the ground. Very depressing. I hope we will find out one
> day why very experienced pilots suddenly loose control and hit the
> ground.
>
> Ramy

This is a sad reminder that any of us can kill themselves. There is no
absolute solution, short of not flying, but there are things we can
all do.
1) Study these events and learn from them
2) Get some additional training
3) Fly regularly. Get advice from good sources- who may not tell you
what you want to hear.
4) Promise ourselves(and our families) that we will look for risks and
eliminate them, or at least minimize them. THEN- Do what we promise
ourselves.
5) Never count on luck.
From a guy that got away with one(and didn't think he would ever put
himself in that kind of situation).
FWIW
UH

[Ramy]

On Jul 1, 11:01*am, wrote:
> On Jul 1, 1:41*pm, Ramy > wrote:
>
> > On Jul 1, 10:21*am, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 1, 10:55*am, ContestID67 > wrote:
>
> > > >http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12717073
>
> > > There've been some conflicting reports. *This has a bit more detailhttp://www.thespectrum.com/article/20090701/NEWS01/907010314/Glider+a...
>
> > We are having a horrible year. 2 fatal crashes in 2 US regional
> > contests one day after the other. Both sounds like the glider suddenly
> > plummeted to the ground. Very depressing. I hope we will find out one
> > day why very experienced pilots suddenly loose control and hit the
> > ground.
>
> > Ramy
>
> This is a sad reminder that any of us can kill themselves. There is no
> absolute solution, short of not flying, but there are things we can
> all do.
> 1) Study these events and learn from them
> 2) Get some additional training
> 3) Fly regularly. Get advice from good sources- who may not tell you
> what you want to hear.
> 4) Promise ourselves(and our families) that we will look for risks and
> eliminate them, or at least minimize them. THEN- Do what we promise
> ourselves.
> 5) Never count on luck.
> From a guy that got away with one(and didn't think he would ever put
> himself in that kind of situation).
> FWIW
> UH

I agree. But I am especially bothered by accidents that don't seem to
fall under any of the above critical points.

Ramy

[[email protected]]

On Jul 1, 2:49*pm, Ramy > wrote:
> On Jul 1, 11:01*am, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 1, 1:41*pm, Ramy > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 1, 10:21*am, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 1, 10:55*am, ContestID67 > wrote:
>
> > > > >http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12717073
>
> > > > There've been some conflicting reports. *This has a bit more detailhttp://www.thespectrum.com/article/20090701/NEWS01/907010314/Glider+a...
>
> > > We are having a horrible year. 2 fatal crashes in 2 US regional
> > > contests one day after the other. Both sounds like the glider suddenly
> > > plummeted to the ground. Very depressing. I hope we will find out one
> > > day why very experienced pilots suddenly loose control and hit the
> > > ground.
>
> > > Ramy
>
> > This is a sad reminder that any of us can kill themselves. There is no
> > absolute solution, short of not flying, but there are things we can
> > all do.
> > 1) Study these events and learn from them
> > 2) Get some additional training
> > 3) Fly regularly. Get advice from good sources- who may not tell you
> > what you want to hear.
> > 4) Promise ourselves(and our families) that we will look for risks and
> > eliminate them, or at least minimize them. THEN- Do what we promise
> > ourselves.
> > 5) Never count on luck.
> > From a guy that got away with one(and didn't think he would ever put
> > himself in that kind of situation).
> > FWIW
> > UH
>
> I agree. But I am especially bothered by accidents that don't seem to
> fall under any of the above critical points.
>
> Ramy- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Speculation on my part- It would be interesting to know when the past
time either of these folks spun a glider and if either had ever spun
the glider they were flying.
When I ask this question of most pilots, the answer I get is that they
never have.
Again FWIW
UH

[noel.wade]

> I agree. But I am especially bothered by accidents that don't seem to
> fall under any of the above critical points.
>
> Ramy
>

Ramy -

While its too early to talk about accident causation, in both cases
there appears to be some stall/spin behavior in the chain of events.

Stall/spin accidents are a known problem and an area that _all_ pilots
should be aware of. There is no excuse for not practicing them and/or
taking spin recovery training.

Every pilot should understand their CG (and its effects on stall/spin
behavior of their particular aircraft). They should also think about
stall/spin behavior and CG changes when they load up on water ballast
as well.

--Noel

[mike]

On Jul 1, 12:27�pm, wrote:
> On Jul 1, 2:49�pm, Ramy > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 1, 11:01�am, wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 1, 1:41�pm, Ramy > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 1, 10:21�am, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jul 1, 10:55�am, ContestID67 > wrote:
>
> > > > > >http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12717073
>
> > > > > There've been some conflicting reports. �This has a bit more detailhttp://www.thespectrum.com/article/20090701/NEWS01/907010314/Glider+a...
>
> > > > We are having a horrible year. 2 fatal crashes in 2 US regional
> > > > contests one day after the other. Both sounds like the glider suddenly
> > > > plummeted to the ground. Very depressing. I hope we will find out one
> > > > day why very experienced pilots suddenly loose control and hit the
> > > > ground.
>
> > > > Ramy
>
> > > This is a sad reminder that any of us can kill themselves. There is no
> > > absolute solution, short of not flying, but there are things we can
> > > all do.
> > > 1) Study these events and learn from them
> > > 2) Get some additional training
> > > 3) Fly regularly. Get advice from good sources- who may not tell you
> > > what you want to hear.
> > > 4) Promise ourselves(and our families) that we will look for risks and
> > > eliminate them, or at least minimize them. THEN- Do what we promise
> > > ourselves.
> > > 5) Never count on luck.
> > > From a guy that got away with one(and didn't think he would ever put
> > > himself in that kind of situation).
> > > FWIW
> > > UH
>
> > I agree. But I am especially bothered by accidents that don't seem to
> > fall under any of the above critical points.
>
> > Ramy- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Speculation on my part- It would be interesting to know when the past
> time either of these folks spun a glider and if either had ever spun
> the glider they were flying.
> When I ask this question of most pilots, the answer I get is that they
> never have.
> Again FWIW
> UH- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'd have to add that it's important to be in good health. You don't
want to have any issues, especially in conditions that may cause
stress like contests and weather (as in heat).

Mike Z

[Craig[_2_]]

On Jul 1, 12:31*pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
> > I agree. But I am especially bothered by accidents that don't seem to
> > fall under any of the above critical points.
>
> > Ramy
>
> Ramy -
>
> While its too early to talk about accident causation, in both cases
> there appears to be some stall/spin behavior in the chain of events.
>
> Stall/spin accidents are a known problem and an area that _all_ pilots
> should be aware of. *There is no excuse for not practicing them and/or
> taking spin recovery training.
>
> Every pilot should understand their CG (and its effects on stall/spin
> behavior of their particular aircraft). *They should also think about
> stall/spin behavior and CG changes when they load up on water ballast
> as well.
>
> --Noel

Some of our birds are placarded against spinning (my Nimbus 3
included). Spin training is a must, but something like a Blanik won't
necessarily prepare a pilot for a glider with a less benign spin
mode. All of our machines "talk" to us in the air. The best thing we
can do is learn how to really listen to them.

Craig

[bildan]

On Jul 1, 2:01*pm, Craig > wrote:
> On Jul 1, 12:31*pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > > I agree. But I am especially bothered by accidents that don't seem to
> > > fall under any of the above critical points.
>
> > > Ramy
>
> > Ramy -
>
> > While its too early to talk about accident causation, in both cases
> > there appears to be some stall/spin behavior in the chain of events.
>
> > Stall/spin accidents are a known problem and an area that _all_ pilots
> > should be aware of. *There is no excuse for not practicing them and/or
> > taking spin recovery training.
>
> > Every pilot should understand their CG (and its effects on stall/spin
> > behavior of their particular aircraft). *They should also think about
> > stall/spin behavior and CG changes when they load up on water ballast
> > as well.
>
> > --Noel
>
> Some of our birds are placarded against spinning (my Nimbus 3
> included). *Spin training is a must, but something like a Blanik won't
> necessarily prepare a pilot for a glider with a less benign spin
> mode. *All of our machines "talk" to us in the air. *The best thing we
> can do is learn how to really listen to them.
>
> Craig

After many years of first learning spins, practicing them and finally
teaching them, I've developed the opinion that what we do to teach
spins has little to do with the actual killer spin. Who would
inadvertently haul the nose way up then stomp full rudder at the stall
break?

The people who taught me the killer spin were my students. As in, "I
didn't know a glider would do that." It helps to have a easily
spinable glider like a 2-32, Blanik or Lark although the 2-32 tends to
spin too easily.

These spins require a set up. First, fly at minimum controllable
airspeed for at least 30 seconds. Try to let the glider slowly and
smoothly enter "mushing flight". In "mushing flight" the glider is
not quite stalled but the airflow over the wing has become unstable.
Any disturbance will trip it into a full stall. The angle of attack
is very high due to the sink rate - not a nose high attitude. In
fact, the nose can be near the usual gliding attitude.

Any attempt to turn will trip an asymmetric stall which will develop
into a spin in less than a second. Just before the glider spins,
everything "looks" normal. (Except, of course, for the ridiculously
low airspeed, sloppy controls, absence of wind noise etc...) Several
high time glider pilots doing a BFR with me didn't see this one coming
and were visibly shaken by their 'inadvertent spin'.

What happens next is crucial. If the pilot does nothing, the glider
is likely to transition into a spiral dive. If the pilot then applies
spin recovery control inputs the spiral dive will become much worse.
Some of the scariest rides I've had is with a pilot using "anti-spin"
control inputs while in a spiral dive.

In most fatal "spin-in" accidents, I think the glider is likely to
have transitioned to a spiral dive before impact. This can also
explain some in-flight breakups following an inadvertent spin.

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

There has been some insightful, thoughtful, and (I hope)
thought-provoking input ahead of this post & I doubt I can contribute
much more, beyond agreeing with it all and trying to reinforce it from
my personal perspective.

As the years have passed, one by one most of my long-held beliefs about
certain aspects of aviation have been proven wrong by reality, e.g.:
- it IS possible to spin in a landing-flap-only-equipped sailplane while
flying a pattern with full flaps;
- people DO routinely fall asleep at the switch;
- "it" CAN happen to me.

The ship I've flown since 1981 is docility defined in every flight
regime which I've explored, and I have difficulty imagining one of
similar airfoil & configuration being inadvertently spun...yet it has
been done (not by me), and, into the ground, with full flaps deployed
(the pilot - who survived - was overshooting his off-airport field).

I've never spun mine, have no intention of ever spinning it
(intentionally or unintentionally), but believe in my soul that it
*might* be possible that I *could* inadvertently spin it...and try
really hard to "not do it!" So far, it's worked.

I believe and think this way for a number of reasons: 1) accident
reports tell me others (including paid professionals) too-often 'do the
impossibly unlikely;' 2) perfection's NOT an option; and 3) I hope that
by so believing I'm doing everything I can within myself to *avoid*
doing those things I never - EVER! - want to do in a glider. You're
darned right there's a paradox here, but until someone comes up with an
inoculation against human forgetfulness, momentary inattention during
critical flight regimes, varying/diminishing skills, etc. I believe it's
the best I can do within my own brain.

I knew neither of our recently departed soul brothers, but mourn their
passing and circumstances, and grieve for their families and friends.

Respectfully and Sorrowfully,
Bob W.

[Frank[_12_]]

On Jul 1, 5:32*pm, bildan > wrote:

> What happens next is crucial. *If the pilot does nothing, the glider
> is likely to transition into a spiral dive. *If the pilot then applies
> spin recovery control inputs the spiral dive will become much worse.
> Some of the scariest rides I've had is with a pilot using "anti-spin"
> control inputs while in a spiral dive.

I'm a little confused by this. The normal recovery from a spiral dive
is to roll the wings level and then apply smooth aft stick pressure to
level flight. What is it about the "anti-spin" control inputs that
makes the spiral dive worse? Do you mean something like full rudder
in the anti-turn direction and full forward stick?

TA

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jul 1, 6:49*pm, Frank > wrote:
> On Jul 1, 5:32*pm, bildan > wrote:
>
> > What happens next is crucial. *If the pilot does nothing, the glider
> > is likely to transition into a spiral dive. *If the pilot then applies
> > spin recovery control inputs the spiral dive will become much worse.
> > Some of the scariest rides I've had is with a pilot using "anti-spin"
> > control inputs while in a spiral dive.
>
> I'm a little confused by this. *The normal recovery from a spiral dive
> is to roll the wings level and then apply smooth aft stick pressure to
> level flight. *What is it about the "anti-spin" control inputs that
> makes the spiral dive worse? *Do you mean something like full rudder
> in the anti-turn direction and full forward stick?
>
> TA

You just answered your own question. If in an early spiral dive down
elevetor is going to accelerate the spiral dive. If going very fast a
full rudder deflection is not a good thing. And you have not directly
helped do what you really need to do which is roll off aileron so you
can then get the airspeed off. So now you are in a very steep spiral
dive maybe yawed sideways and things are winding up fast. If lack of
situational awareness led to an inital wrong control input for
recovery the confusion about what is then going on may be too much.

The g-forces on a pilot in a spiral dive are not pretty to think
about. In a ship like mine (ASH-26E) with a nice big bathtub style
cockpit getting out would be very difficult. I am not an instructor
but one thing I noticed when spinning two seaters with other pilots
(and this was just a DG-1000, which is pretty benign) was that it was
pretty common not to recognize the transition to a spiral dive. This
is the main reason I think proper spin training with an instructor is
a good idea. Obviously the goal is to avoid entry at all, but I worry
what happens once in a spin if a pilot is not comfortable with
recovery. Then think about this with a slippery high performance
glider loaded up with water. And. yes I know the horrible irony is
that people will die in spin training accidents.

Anyhow this is is all gerneal comments and who knows if relevent in
any way to the two recent accidents.

Deep sympathy to the families of the two pilots who died in these
accidents.

A sobering time for us all to think about how we fly and out own
safety.

Darryl

[Patty Haley]

On Jul 1, 10:41*am, Ramy > wrote:
> On Jul 1, 10:21*am, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
>
> > On Jul 1, 10:55*am, ContestID67 > wrote:
>
> > >http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12717073
>
> > There've been some conflicting reports. *This has a bit more detailhttp://www.thespectrum.com/article/20090701/NEWS01/907010314/Glider+a...
>
> We are having a horrible year. 2fatalcrashes in 2 US regional
> contests one day after the other. Both sounds like the glider suddenly
> plummeted to the ground. Very depressing. I hope we will find out one
> day why very experienced pilots suddenly loose control and hit the
> ground.
>
> Ramy

Where was the other one? I'm out here at Cedar City at a Navion
Convention and visted Parowan Monday when they were landing. Great to
see, but sad news about the crash.

[Heinz]

On Jul 1, 2:32*pm, bildan > wrote:
> Any attempt to turn will trip an asymmetric stall which will develop
> into a spin in less than a second. * *Just before the glider spins,
> everything "looks" normal. *(Except, of course, for the ridiculously
> low airspeed, sloppy controls, absence of wind noise etc...) *Several
> high time glider pilots doing a BFR with me didn't see this one coming
> and were visibly shaken by their 'inadvertent spin'.
>
> What happens next is crucial. *If the pilot does nothing, the glider
> is likely to transition into a spiral dive. *
I do not understand this last sentence. What converts a spin into a
spiral dive? What is the aerdynamic/physics here?
Heinz

[Frank Whiteley]

On Jul 1, 10:15*pm, Patty Haley > wrote:
> On Jul 1, 10:41*am, Ramy > wrote:
>
> > On Jul 1, 10:21*am, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 1, 10:55*am, ContestID67 > wrote:
>
> > > >http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12717073
>
> > > There've been some conflicting reports. *This has a bit more detailhttp://www.thespectrum.com/article/20090701/NEWS01/907010314/Glider+a...
>
> > We are having a horrible year. 2fatalcrashes in 2 US regional
> > contests one day after the other. Both sounds like the glider suddenly
> > plummeted to the ground. Very depressing. I hope we will find out one
> > day why very experienced pilots suddenly loose control and hit the
> > ground.
>
> > Ramy
>
> Where was the other one? I'm out here at Cedar City at a Navion
> Convention and visted Parowan Monday when they were landing. Great to
> see, but sad news about the crash.

On course outside of Ephrata, near Soap Lake.

Both were on Monday.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jul 1, 9:54*pm, Heinz > wrote:
> On Jul 1, 2:32*pm, bildan > wrote:> Any attempt to turn will trip an asymmetric stall which will develop
> > into a spin in less than a second. * *Just before the glider spins,
> > everything "looks" normal. *(Except, of course, for the ridiculously
> > low airspeed, sloppy controls, absence of wind noise etc...) *Several
> > high time glider pilots doing a BFR with me didn't see this one coming
> > and were visibly shaken by their 'inadvertent spin'.
>
> > What happens next is crucial. *If the pilot does nothing, the glider
> > is likely to transition into a spiral dive. *
>
> I do not understand this last sentence. What converts a spin into a
> spiral dive? What is the aerdynamic/physics here?
> Heinz

Am I misunderstanding the question? Once the pilot releases back
pressure or applies forward stick, or if pilot reduced spin direction
rudder or applies opposite rudder (will help slow rotation rate and
can cause nose to drop and stall to break) or applies inside aileron
(opposite effect of a flat spin)... all obvious things that can cause
the stall to break and then you have the outer wing flying faster,
nose pointed at ground ...

Undoubtedly there are second order things where a glider will come out
of a spin by itself (we've all seen this right?) after a few rotations
with constant control positions as the nose slowly drops, if the
glider is never really fully stalled (esp. with forward CG) or angular
momentum related effects. But I'll expect in most cases the cause is
just simply the pilot intentionally or unintentionally releasing back
pressure.

Darryl

[Gregg Leslie[_2_]]

How about some sympathy for the families...

GL


At 05:43 02 July 2009, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>On Jul 1, 9:54=A0pm, Heinz wrote:
>> On Jul 1, 2:32=A0pm, bildan wrote:> Any attempt to t=
>urn will trip an asymmetric stall which will develop
>> > into a spin in less than a second. =A0 =A0Just before the glider
>spins,
>> > everything "looks" normal. =A0(Except, of course, for the
ridiculously
>> > low airspeed, sloppy controls, absence of wind noise etc...)
>=A0Several
>> > high time glider pilots doing a BFR with me didn't see this one
coming
>> > and were visibly shaken by their 'inadvertent spin'.
>>
>> > What happens next is crucial. =A0If the pilot does nothing, the
glider
>> > is likely to transition into a spiral dive. =A0
>>
>> I do not understand this last sentence. What converts a spin into a
>> spiral dive? What is the aerdynamic/physics here?
>> Heinz
>
>Am I misunderstanding the question? Once the pilot releases back
>pressure or applies forward stick, or if pilot reduced spin direction
>rudder or applies opposite rudder (will help slow rotation rate and
>can cause nose to drop and stall to break) or applies inside aileron
>(opposite effect of a flat spin)... all obvious things that can cause
>the stall to break and then you have the outer wing flying faster,
>nose pointed at ground ...
>
>Undoubtedly there are second order things where a glider will come out
>of a spin by itself (we've all seen this right?) after a few rotations
>with constant control positions as the nose slowly drops, if the
>glider is never really fully stalled (esp. with forward CG) or angular
>momentum related effects. But I'll expect in most cases the cause is
>just simply the pilot intentionally or unintentionally releasing back
>pressure.
>
>Darryl
>

[Del C[_2_]]

Bill,

Do you mean you don't teach the difference between spins and spiral dives
in the States?! That's a pre-solo exercise in the UK. We also teach all
the possible spin entries, not all of which are nose high with a bootful
of rudder, and more importantly how to avoid the situations where they can
occur.

I agree that many gliders will spiral out of an initial spin entry, and
that the recovery actions are quite different, namely.

Spin:

1) Centralise the ailerons
2) Apply full outspin rudder
3) Move the stick steadily forward until the spin stops
4) Centralise the rudder and ease out of the dive.

Spiral Dive,

1) Keep the stick fairly well back and use the controls normally to reduce
the angle of bank.

Spins and spiral dives look and feel quite different. In particular the
speed and g will continue to increase in a spiral dive, whereas they
don't in a spin.

Derek Copeland


At 21:32 01 July 2009, bildan wrote:

[T8]

On Jul 2, 6:45*am, Gregg Leslie > wrote:
> How about some sympathy for the families...
>
> GL

Yes, thank you Gregg.

For the rest of you guys... c'mon. You want to discuss elementary
spin recovery technique, fine. Start your own thread. Please don't
do it in the context of a couple of tragic accidents.

We don't know what happened. I do know that the one of these guys I
knew personally had a lot more flight experience in all sorts of
aircraft, from hang gliders to turbo-twins than most of the noisy
pundits here. If he failed to apply appropriate corrective actions, I
suspect it is most likely because he was incapacitated. Lack of
knowledge or skill wasn't the problem.

I'm with Ramy, these accidents are disturbing.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

[Del C[_2_]]

Points taken, but having said that, how well will pilots react if they
unexpectedly get into a spin or a spiral dive? Normally you gird your
loins up first before doing a deliberate spin! It has only happened to me
once while solo flying (a spin), and I have to admit that that it took me
a second or two to twig what was going on. I have also seen a K6E flown by
a very experienced instructor returning to the airfield looking as though
it had been on a bombing raid, with lots of torn fabric and other damage
after a loss of control in a rough thermal.

Derek Copeland

At 11:17 02 July 2009, T8 wrote:
>On Jul 2, 6:45=A0am, Gregg Leslie wrote:
>> How about some sympathy for the families...
>>
>> GL
>
>Yes, thank you Gregg.
>
>For the rest of you guys... c'mon. You want to discuss elementary
>spin recovery technique, fine. Start your own thread. Please don't
>do it in the context of a couple of tragic accidents.
>
>We don't know what happened. I do know that the one of these guys I
>knew personally had a lot more flight experience in all sorts of
>aircraft, from hang gliders to turbo-twins than most of the noisy
>pundits here. If he failed to apply appropriate corrective actions, I
>suspect it is most likely because he was incapacitated. Lack of
>knowledge or skill wasn't the problem.
>
>I'm with Ramy, these accidents are disturbing.
>
>-Evan Ludeman / T8
>
>

[bildan]

On Jul 1, 10:54*pm, Heinz > wrote:
> On Jul 1, 2:32*pm, bildan > wrote:> Any attempt to turn will trip an asymmetric stall which will develop
> > into a spin in less than a second. * *Just before the glider spins,
> > everything "looks" normal. *(Except, of course, for the ridiculously
> > low airspeed, sloppy controls, absence of wind noise etc...) *Several
> > high time glider pilots doing a BFR with me didn't see this one coming
> > and were visibly shaken by their 'inadvertent spin'.
>
> > What happens next is crucial. *If the pilot does nothing, the glider
> > is likely to transition into a spiral dive. *
>
> I do not understand this last sentence. What converts a spin into a
> spiral dive? What is the aerdynamic/physics here?
> Heinz

Most modern gliders are very spin resistant and won't stay in a spin
unless the controls are held in the pro-spin position - full up
elevator and into the spin rudder. This is unlikely in an inadvertent
spin so the usual scenario is a initial wing drop and a quarter turn
auto-rotation transitioning into a spiral dive. If the pilot is
behind the glider and applies spin recovery control inputs - forward
stick and anti-spin rudder - after the glider has made this
transition, it gets "interesting".

[Tuno]

There is way too much speculation on this thread.

The report from the tow pilot who witnessed the Parowan crash does not
suggest any kind of stall-spin, at least not one caused by pilot's
actions. But I'm not going to speculate, just wait for the accident
report.

From Parowan,

ted/2NO

[bildan]

On Jul 2, 5:17*am, T8 > wrote:
> On Jul 2, 6:45*am, Gregg Leslie > wrote:
>
> > How about some sympathy for the families...
>
> > GL
>
> Yes, thank you Gregg.
>
> For the rest of you guys... c'mon. *You want to discuss elementary
> spin recovery technique, fine. *Start your own thread. *Please don't
> do it in the context of a couple of tragic accidents.
>
> We don't know what happened. *I do know that the one of these guys I
> knew personally had a lot more flight experience in all sorts of
> aircraft, from hang gliders to turbo-twins than most of the noisy
> pundits here. *If he failed to apply appropriate corrective actions, I
> suspect it is most likely because he was incapacitated. *Lack of
> knowledge or skill wasn't the problem.
>
> I'm with Ramy, these accidents are disturbing.
>
> -Evan Ludeman / T8

These accidents are very disturbing for all of us. Of course we
sympathize with the families. We are all family. These discussions
mean no disrespect whatsoever. We don't yet know the cause of any of
these accidents and may never know the exact cause but incapacitation
is always a possibility.

Discussing the general subject of what causes accidents is one way
pilots cope. It's an attempt to put tragedies into some sort of
rational framework we can deal with.

The biggest mistake we can make as a group is to never discuss
accidents since they are a powerful learning opportunity.

[Jim Beckman[_2_]]

At 21:32 01 July 2009, bildan wrote:

>The people who taught me the killer spin were my students. As in, "I
>didn't know a glider would do that."

I suppose I shouldn't laugh, but this really is sort of funny. It's
also one reason I don't think I could stand the stress of instructing.

>These spins require a set up. First, fly at minimum controllable
>airspeed for at least 30 seconds. Try to let the glider slowly and
>smoothly enter "mushing flight". In "mushing flight" the glider is
>not quite stalled but the airflow over the wing has become unstable.
>Any disturbance will trip it into a full stall.

My experience in BFRs has been that instructors consistently approach the
subject of spins in just this way. Not the full back stick and then kick
rudder approach, but something realistic. Usually simulating the turn to
final when too slow, afraid to bank sufficiently hard, and then pushing
the turn with rudder. Down goes the wing.

Jim Beckman

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Thu, 02 Jul 2009 13:45:02 +0000, Jim Beckman wrote:

>
> My experience in BFRs has been that instructors consistently approach
> the subject of spins in just this way. Not the full back stick and then
> kick rudder approach, but something realistic. Usually simulating the
> turn to final when too slow, afraid to bank sufficiently hard, and then
> pushing the turn with rudder. Down goes the wing.
>
The two usual scenarios used at my club are:

- a slow, under-banked, over-ruddered turn as if you're trying to
stretch a low approach. Its interesting how much you have to abuse
a Puchacz to get it to spin off a fairly wide turn in this setup.

- a simulated winch cable break followed by a too-slow push-over
and a turn as soon as a normal gliding attitude has been established.
The Puchacz departs *really fast* from this demo.

If I sound like I'm harping on the Puchacz its because thats what we use
for spin training. Following up on Bildan and single seaters, I think it
depends on the glider. From my own experience:

- Discii and Pegasii can be spun fairly easily and will stay in at
least one turn without any spiral diving tendency. Recovery is normal.

- ASW-20s spin readily and, even in zero flap may depart in a
turbulent thermal with little or no warning. They often auto-recover
as soon as the flaps are fully negative.

Speed gain and height loss from even an incipient (1/4 turn) spin
are both surprisingly high: entry from a 45 degree bank at 45 kts,
exit 300 feet lower at 80kts. By contrast a Puchacz can be spun
one full turn in each direction and only loose 800 ft overall.

- SZD Juniors can be spun fairly easily and, at around 70kg pilot weight,
self-recover after 2.5 turns without any spiral diving tendency.
Pilots who are either heavier or lighter than the medium weight
band should read the manual before spinning one because they have
three behaviors depending on pilot weight.

- the most spin resistant glider I've flown is a Std Libelle. Its
spin and recovery is benign once you get it to go: first time I
tried to spin mine, nothing happened. I had to really try hard
before it would depart.

The ASW-20 is the only type on my list that has departed unexpectedly.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Ramy]

Two experienced contest pilots, in two seperate contests 1000 miles
appart, suddenly plunge to the ground out of control at almost the
same time. This is not only very disturbing, it is down right spooky!

The discussions about spins and spiral dives are great and very
important, and I already made a note to myself to practice some more
spins in my glider, but I don't buy it as the cause of those
accidents. Both pilots had plenty of altitude to recover even without
immediate proper recovery technique.

Ramy

T8 wrote:
> On Jul 2, 6:45*am, Gregg Leslie > wrote:
> > How about some sympathy for the families...
> >
> > GL
>
> Yes, thank you Gregg.
>
> For the rest of you guys... c'mon. You want to discuss elementary
> spin recovery technique, fine. Start your own thread. Please don't
> do it in the context of a couple of tragic accidents.
>
> We don't know what happened. I do know that the one of these guys I
> knew personally had a lot more flight experience in all sorts of
> aircraft, from hang gliders to turbo-twins than most of the noisy
> pundits here. If he failed to apply appropriate corrective actions, I
> suspect it is most likely because he was incapacitated. Lack of
> knowledge or skill wasn't the problem.
>
> I'm with Ramy, these accidents are disturbing.
>
> -Evan Ludeman / T8

[noel.wade]

On Jul 2, 11:05*am, Ramy > wrote:

> accidents. Both pilots had plenty of altitude to recover even without
> immediate proper recovery technique.
>
> Ramy

Ramy -

1) Wasn't the Parowan crash at the top of a tow? I read a report that
implied it was only at 2000' AGL or so - not a whole lot of altitude
if you do not use proper recovery technique.

2) See the comments about spiral dives. Failure to recover from that
is a much worse outcome than failure to recover from a spin (with
relatively low speeds and low g-forces, compared to a spiral dive)

3) Remember we're all speculating. We can say that a spin-type of
event may have been part of the accidents, based on eyewitness
reports. BUT we don't know what caused them. Anything from a
mechanical failure to a medical condition could have complicated
matters or explained the lack of recovery. This is where we have to
sit back and wait for the NTSB - as tough as that is...

Take care,

--Noel

[brianDG303[_2_]]

While this board will not be able to determine the reason for these
accidents, I find the speculation very educational and see no harm in
it so far.

As a compulsive reader of NTSB reports I recall very few that describe
a spin right off tow but there is at least one:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X06614&key=1

It is interesting, tragic, and informative as to the effects of
attempting to fly an L13 that 1.4" behind the aft limit.

Brian


> 3) Remember we're all speculating. *We can say that a spin-type of
> event may have been part of the accidents, based on eyewitness
> reports. *BUT we don't know what caused them. *Anything from a
> mechanical failure to a medical condition could have complicated
> matters or explained the lack of recovery. *This is where we have to
> sit back and wait for the NTSB - as tough as that is...
>
> Take care,
>
> --Noel

[ContestID67[_2_]]

Prelimary NTSB Reports for the Parowan and Ephrata fatal accidents -
not much content at this time.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20090629X04921&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20090629X83644&key=1

[Frank Whiteley]

On Jul 2, 3:00*pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
> On Jul 2, 11:05*am, Ramy > wrote:
>
> > accidents. Both pilots had plenty of altitude to recover even without
> > immediate proper recovery technique.
>
> > Ramy
>
> Ramy -
>
> 1) Wasn't the Parowan crash at the top of a tow? *I read a report that
> implied it was only at 2000' AGL or so - not a whole lot of altitude
> if you do not use proper recovery technique.
>
> 2) See the comments about spiral dives. *Failure to recover from that
> is a much worse outcome than failure to recover from a spin (with
> relatively low speeds and low g-forces, compared to a spiral dive)
>
> 3) Remember we're all speculating. *We can say that a spin-type of
> event may have been part of the accidents, based on eyewitness
> reports. *BUT we don't know what caused them. *Anything from a
> mechanical failure to a medical condition could have complicated
> matters or explained the lack of recovery. *This is where we have to
> sit back and wait for the NTSB - as tough as that is...
>
> Take care,
>
> --Noel

A bit more illuminating article
http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20090702/NEWS01/907020318