Fierce battles in Najab, Helicopter lost. Heavy casualties.

[ArtKramr]

Will we ever get Iraq under control the way we did Germany and Japan.? Rumsfeld
must go.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Billy Preston]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Will we ever get Iraq under control the way we did Germany and Japan.? Rumsfeld
> must go.

What is your justification for constantly trashing this newsgroup?

Is there someone you are trying to communicate with? Some tribe or something?

[L'acrobat]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> Will we ever get Iraq under control the way we did Germany and Japan.?
> Rumsfeld
> must go.
>
>

I wonder what you would have said in 1943 about someone posting letters to
the editor like the ones you now post...

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Fierce battles in Najab, Helicopter lost. Heavy casualties.
>From: "L'acrobat"
>Date: 8/12/2004 9:27 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>

>ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> Will we ever get Iraq under control the way we did Germany and Japan.?
>> Rumsfeld
>> must go.
>>
>>
>
>I wonder what you would have said in 1943 about someone posting letters to
>the editor like the ones you now post...
>


No need. We knew how to fight WW II.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Fierce battles in Najab, Helicopter lost. Heavy casualties.
> >From: "L'acrobat"
> >Date: 8/12/2004 9:27 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
>
> >ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Will we ever get Iraq under control the way we did Germany and Japan.?
> >> Rumsfeld
> >> must go.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I wonder what you would have said in 1943 about someone posting letters
to
> >the editor like the ones you now post...
> >
>
>
> No need. We knew how to fight WW II.

Rather than rattle your jaw about a subject you obviously have no real
knowledge of, you might take time to actually read a bit about the OIF
campaign. Tommy Frank's new book, "American Soldier", is at your local
bookstore now, and includes an inside view of how the operation was planned
and executed...but I doubt you'd bother with reading it or any other
reputable account of the campaign--that would make it harder for you to
belittle the efforts and sacrifices of those that fought it, wouldn't it?

Brooks

>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Fierce battles in Najab, Helicopter lost. Heavy casualties.
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 8/13/2004 7:03 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Fierce battles in Najab, Helicopter lost. Heavy casualties.
>> >From: "L'acrobat"
>> >Date: 8/12/2004 9:27 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> >ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> Will we ever get Iraq under control the way we did Germany and Japan.?
>> >> Rumsfeld
>> >> must go.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >I wonder what you would have said in 1943 about someone posting letters
>to
>> >the editor like the ones you now post...
>> >
>>
>>
>> No need. We knew how to fight WW II.
>
>Rather than rattle your jaw about a subject you obviously have no real
>knowledge of, you might take time to actually read a bit about the OIF
>campaign. Tommy Frank's new book, "American Soldier", is at your local
>bookstore now, and includes an inside view of how the operation was planned
>and executed...but I doubt you'd bother with reading it or any other
>reputable account of the campaign--that would make it harder for you to
>belittle the efforts and sacrifices of those that fought it, wouldn't it?
>
>Brooks
>
>>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>> 344th BG 494th BS
>> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>>
>


There are those who go to war. Then there are those who only read about war.
And never the twain shall meet. Read your books. Cherish your dreams and
fantasies. But don't confuse your dreams and fantasies with the reality of war.
They are not the same. Or even close.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Fierce battles in Najab, Helicopter lost. Heavy casualties.
> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >Date: 8/13/2004 7:03 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: Fierce battles in Najab, Helicopter lost. Heavy
casualties.
> >> >From: "L'acrobat"
> >> >Date: 8/12/2004 9:27 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> >ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> Will we ever get Iraq under control the way we did Germany and
Japan.?
> >> >> Rumsfeld
> >> >> must go.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >I wonder what you would have said in 1943 about someone posting
letters
> >to
> >> >the editor like the ones you now post...
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> No need. We knew how to fight WW II.
> >
> >Rather than rattle your jaw about a subject you obviously have no real
> >knowledge of, you might take time to actually read a bit about the OIF
> >campaign. Tommy Frank's new book, "American Soldier", is at your local
> >bookstore now, and includes an inside view of how the operation was
planned
> >and executed...but I doubt you'd bother with reading it or any other
> >reputable account of the campaign--that would make it harder for you to
> >belittle the efforts and sacrifices of those that fought it, wouldn't it?
> >
> >Brooks
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Arthur Kramer
> >> 344th BG 494th BS
> >> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> >> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> >> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
> >>
> >
>
>
> There are those who go to war. Then there are those who only read about
war.
> And never the twain shall meet. Read your books. Cherish your dreams and
> fantasies. But don't confuse your dreams and fantasies with the reality of
war.
> They are not the same. Or even close.

Yo, Shmedlap--you must have missed the fact that Franks fought in three wars
to your one, and was the commander of CENTCOM during both OIF and OEF. So
are you calling him the fellow who "only reads about war"? Unlike your hero
Kerry, he actually got a *real* PH for wounds received. He wrote the book I
referenced towards your edification--but you think you know more than he
does, eh? Figures. You must truly be getting senile...

Brooks

>
>
>
>
> Arthur Kramer

[L'acrobat]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...

>
>
> There are those who go to war. Then there are those who only read about
> war.
> And never the twain shall meet. Read your books. Cherish your dreams and
> fantasies. But don't confuse your dreams and fantasies with the reality of
> war.
> They are not the same. Or even close.
>

The perfect demonstration of why you are ignorant on any military subject
outside your own limited field.

Professionals read history.

[L'acrobat]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Fierce battles in Najab, Helicopter lost. Heavy casualties.
>>From: "L'acrobat"
>>Date: 8/12/2004 9:27 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>
>
>>ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>> Will we ever get Iraq under control the way we did Germany and Japan.?
>>> Rumsfeld
>>> must go.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I wonder what you would have said in 1943 about someone posting letters to
>>the editor like the ones you now post...
>>
>
>
> No need. We knew how to fight WW II.
>
>

You are avoiding the question Art.

We all know you'd be ranting incessantly about traitors and backstabbers
sabotaging the countries war effort.

yet still you post.

[B2431]

>From: "L'acrobat"
>Date: 8/13/2004 6:12 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
>>
>>
>> There are those who go to war. Then there are those who only read about
>> war.
>> And never the twain shall meet. Read your books. Cherish your dreams and
>> fantasies. But don't confuse your dreams and fantasies with the reality of
>> war.
>> They are not the same. Or even close.
>>
>
>The perfect demonstration of why you are ignorant on any military subject
>outside your own limited field.
>
>Professionals read history.

More importantly a true professional LEARNS from history and knows how to apply
those lessons.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Fierce battles in Najab, Helicopter lost. Heavy casualties.
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 8/13/2004 5:19 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id:

>More importantly a true professional LEARNS from history and knows how to
>apply
>those lessons.
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

That may be true on the strategic level. But sitting in the nose of a bomb I
learned from my training and my experience what I had to do and how fast I had
to do it. I can't think of a history book that would have helped me in that
situation. Can you?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Howard Berkowitz]

In article >,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

> >Subject: Re: Fierce battles in Najab, Helicopter lost. Heavy casualties.
> >From: (B2431)
> >Date: 8/13/2004 5:19 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id:
>
> >More importantly a true professional LEARNS from history and knows how
> >to
> >apply
> >those lessons.
> >
> >Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
> That may be true on the strategic level. But sitting in the nose of a
> bomb I
> learned from my training and my experience what I had to do and how fast
> I had
> to do it. I can't think of a history book that would have helped me in
> that
> situation. Can you?
>
Probably not, although some historic fiction seriously might. Today, of
course, simulator training and large exercises would have helped.

My concern, Art, is recognizing that the strategic and the tactical both
are necessary. If your group took massive casualties attacking
unimportant bridges, how would that have contributed to victory? Think
of the Battle of Britain -- what if the Luftwaffe had spent another week
or two on air defense suppression rather than city bombing?

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Fierce battles in Najab, Helicopter lost. Heavy casualties.
>From: Howard Berkowitz
>Date: 8/13/2004 11:08 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
(ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>> >Subject: Re: Fierce battles in Najab, Helicopter lost. Heavy casualties.
>> >From: (B2431)
>> >Date: 8/13/2004 5:19 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id:
>>
>> >More importantly a true professional LEARNS from history and knows how
>> >to
>> >apply
>> >those lessons.
>> >
>> >Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>
>> That may be true on the strategic level. But sitting in the nose of a
>> bomb I
>> learned from my training and my experience what I had to do and how fast
>> I had
>> to do it. I can't think of a history book that would have helped me in
>> that
>> situation. Can you?
>>
>Probably not, although some historic fiction seriously might. Today, of
>course, simulator training and large exercises would have helped.
>
>My concern, Art, is recognizing that the strategic and the tactical both
>are necessary. If your group took massive casualties attacking
>unimportant bridges, how would that have contributed to victory? Think
>of the Battle of Britain -- what if the Luftwaffe had spent another week
>or two on air defense suppression rather than city bombing?
>
>

These are not concerns for the man doing the fighting. Let me tell you what my
war was like. We have just reached the I.P. and turned on the bomb run. I have
sent power to the bomb panel, intervelometer and bombays. I have opened the
bomb bay doors an lined up and locked in the Norden head and uncaged my gyro.
A sudden burst of flack rocks Willie and tumbles my gyro. My sight is blacked
out and I am only 30 seconds away from bombs away and helpless. I fight with
the gimble rings to erect the gyro, 25 seconds to go, No luck yet, I keep
workimg the gimble rings. Damned gyro won't stand up and get caged. What do I
do now Howard? How about I read the fine 6 volime set on the Punic wars? Think
that wil help me? Or I can call Kevin or Swartz. They read a lot of books so
they can surely help me now. I don't htink so. We go to war with our training,
our experience and our natural instincts and abilities like hand-eye
co-oridanation, depth percption and reaction time. Books are objects of
intersts for after the war been done , fought and won or lost. Or books are
really great for wannabees to quote to each other.Or for historians to study
long after the fact.. But when it comes to fighting, they aren't much help in
the heat if battle. But books are the only excuse the wanabees have for living.
A wannabee can always say that an experienced combat veteran wll know nothing
because he hasn't read a particular book. And the wannabee knows it all because
has read that book. I have never seen a book that would help me get that gyro
up and cage in the remaining ten seconds..And from where I sat, that is what
the war was all about. Maybe you can read about it in a book.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Fierce battles in Najab, Helicopter lost. Heavy casualties.
> >From: Howard Berkowitz
> >Date: 8/13/2004 11:08 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >In article >,
> (ArtKramr) wrote:
> >
> >> >Subject: Re: Fierce battles in Najab, Helicopter lost. Heavy
casualties.
> >> >From: (B2431)
> >> >Date: 8/13/2004 5:19 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id:
> >>
> >> >More importantly a true professional LEARNS from history and knows how
> >> >to
> >> >apply
> >> >those lessons.
> >> >
> >> >Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
> >>
> >> That may be true on the strategic level. But sitting in the nose of a
> >> bomb I
> >> learned from my training and my experience what I had to do and how
fast
> >> I had
> >> to do it. I can't think of a history book that would have helped me in
> >> that
> >> situation. Can you?
> >>
> >Probably not, although some historic fiction seriously might. Today, of
> >course, simulator training and large exercises would have helped.
> >
> >My concern, Art, is recognizing that the strategic and the tactical both
> >are necessary. If your group took massive casualties attacking
> >unimportant bridges, how would that have contributed to victory? Think
> >of the Battle of Britain -- what if the Luftwaffe had spent another week
> >or two on air defense suppression rather than city bombing?
> >
> >
>
> These are not concerns for the man doing the fighting. Let me tell you
what my
> war was like. We have just reached the I.P. and turned on the bomb run. I
have
> sent power to the bomb panel, intervelometer and bombays. I have opened
the
> bomb bay doors an lined up and locked in the Norden head and uncaged my
gyro.
> A sudden burst of flack rocks Willie and tumbles my gyro. My sight is
blacked
> out and I am only 30 seconds away from bombs away and helpless. I fight
with
> the gimble rings to erect the gyro, 25 seconds to go, No luck yet, I
keep
> workimg the gimble rings. Damned gyro won't stand up and get caged. What
do I
> do now Howard? How about I read the fine 6 volime set on the Punic wars?
Think
> that wil help me? Or I can call Kevin or Swartz. They read a lot of books
so
> they can surely help me now. I don't htink so. We go to war with our
training,
> our experience and our natural instincts and abilities like hand-eye
> co-oridanation, depth percption and reaction time. Books are objects of
> intersts for after the war been done , fought and won or lost. Or books
are
> really great for wannabees to quote to each other.Or for historians to
study
> long after the fact.. But when it comes to fighting, they aren't much help
in
> the heat if battle. But books are the only excuse the wanabees have for
living.
> A wannabee can always say that an experienced combat veteran wll know
nothing
> because he hasn't read a particular book. And the wannabee knows it all
because
> has read that book. I have never seen a book that would help me get that
gyro
> up and cage in the remaining ten seconds..And from where I sat, that is
what
> the war was all about. Maybe you can read about it in a book.

Is that why you are so down on books? Nobody has written about *you* and
your personal "exploits" (except you yourself, ad nauseum, of course)? It is
truly rare to find a man who so fervently decries the value of
reading...oddly enough, though, you seem to think that *everyone* should not
only read, but take as gospel, your own self-serving writings?! Odd
juxtaposition you pose there in regards to the worth of the written
word--books (which are often well researched by more than one scholar and
their claims backed by solid evidence) are worthless, but Art's own
(unverified, and too often questionable to say the least) website and usenet
ramblings are somehow the stuff that legends are made of? Need to work on
your logic there....

Brooks

>
>
>
>
> Arthur Kramer

[Howard Berkowitz]

In article >,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

> >Subject: Re: Fierce battles in Najab, Helicopter lost. Heavy casualties.
> >From: Howard Berkowitz
> >Date: 8/13/2004 11:08 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >In article >,
> (ArtKramr) wrote:
> >
> >> >Subject: Re: Fierce battles in Najab, Helicopter lost. Heavy
> >> >casualties.
> >> >From: (B2431)
> >> >Date: 8/13/2004 5:19 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id:
> >>
> >> >More importantly a true professional LEARNS from history and knows
> >> >how
> >> >to
> >> >apply
> >> >those lessons.
> >> >
> >> >Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
> >>
> >> That may be true on the strategic level. But sitting in the nose of a
> >> bomb I
> >> learned from my training and my experience what I had to do and how
> >> fast
> >> I had
> >> to do it. I can't think of a history book that would have helped me in
> >> that
> >> situation. Can you?
> >>
> >Probably not, although some historic fiction seriously might. Today, of
> >course, simulator training and large exercises would have helped.
> >
> >My concern, Art, is recognizing that the strategic and the tactical both
> >are necessary. If your group took massive casualties attacking
> >unimportant bridges, how would that have contributed to victory? Think
> >of the Battle of Britain -- what if the Luftwaffe had spent another week
> >or two on air defense suppression rather than city bombing?
> >
> >
>
> These are not concerns for the man doing the fighting. Let me tell you
> what my
> war was like.

No, Art. The issue that leads to the survival of countries is achieving
victory in the war. Are you really unable to realize that others not at
the pointy end have a great deal to do with success or victory?

Yes, it's worthwhile to know the combat experience. But I am unwilling
to examine that as the ONLY aspect of warfare.

I enjoy your accounts as long as there's an underlying respect for
everyone who contributes -- including, incidentally, former combat crew
that were assigned to key staff jobs, and then ordered not to engage in
combat because they now knew information that COULD NOT be jeopardized
by capture: cryptanalysis, the datas and places of invasions, special
weapons, etc.

>We have just reached the I.P. and turned on the bomb run. I
> have
> sent power to the bomb panel, intervelometer and bombays. I have opened
> the
> bomb bay doors an lined up and locked in the Norden head and uncaged my
> gyro.
> A sudden burst of flack rocks Willie and tumbles my gyro. My sight is
> blacked
> out and I am only 30 seconds away from bombs away and helpless. I fight
> with
> the gimble rings to erect the gyro, 25 seconds to go, No luck yet, I
> keep
> workimg the gimble rings. Damned gyro won't stand up and get caged. What
> do I
> do now Howard? How about I read the fine 6 volime set on the Punic wars?


Read again what I have said repeatedly. The books won't help you in that
tactical situation.

But what target are you hitting? Why are you taking a specific ingress
route? I suggest that these were in your orders, and your crews didn't
originate them. The target selection staff, or the intelligence people
supporting them, may very well have saved some of your lives because
they were able to find a minimal-flak route -- for which you didn't have
the information to select.

> Think
> that wil help me? Or I can call Kevin or Swartz. They read a lot of books
> so
> they can surely help me now. I don't htink so. We go to war with our
> training,
> our experience and our natural instincts and abilities like hand-eye
> co-oridanation, depth percption and reaction time.

Ever heard of William F. Friedman? The effects the war had on his
health, and the effect he had on the war? I'd rate Friedman's bravery
with that of any man in your group.

>>Books are objects of
> intersts for after the war been done , fought and won or lost. Or books
> are
> really great for wannabees to quote to each other.Or for historians to
> study
> long after the fact..

No. Books, and current military reporting, can be an essential part of
planning the war.


But when it comes to fighting, they aren't much
> help in
> the heat if battle. But books are the only excuse the wanabees have for
> living.
> A wannabee can always say that an experienced combat veteran wll know
> nothing
> because he hasn't read a particular book. And the wannabee knows it all
> because
> has read that book.

Again, you are making the assumption that modern warfare is only about
combat. It's not. Combat is an essential part, but not the whole.

>I have never seen a book that would help me get that
> gyro up and cage in the remaining ten seconds..

Odd. I would have assumed, silly me, that having memorized the contents
of the instruction for that gyro and the associated equipment might very
much help. An engineer designed that gyro and wrote the instructions. Is
his or her contribution meaningless? How did the gyro get into Willie
the Wolf? Do you believe in the Gyro Fairy?

>And from where I sat, that is
> what
> the war was all about. Maybe you can read about it in a book.
>

You are correct if only the combat crews contrinute winning a war. They
are not. If you want to engage in the fantasy that your particular
perspective was all there was to the war, I am truly sorry for you,
because I respect many things you share.