Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!

[Ragnar]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
> >From: "Mike"
> >Date: 8/8/2004 11:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >>In other words shut your mouth and just fly your
> >> missions.
> >
> >And then talk about them for the next 60 years.
>
>
> If you don't want to hear about them, then just don't read them. Nobody
is
> forcing you to.

To be fair, no one is forcing YOU to write them.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>From: "Adrian"
>Date: 8/8/2004 11:06 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>> >From: "Mike"
>> >Date: 8/8/2004 11:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >>In other words shut your mouth and just fly your
>> >> missions.
>> >
>> >And then talk about them for the next 60 years.
>>
>>
>> If you don't want to hear about them, then just don't read them. Nobody
>is
>> forcing you to.
>> <snip>
>
>Ignore the trolls. I for one, always enjoy your tales. I wish more veterans
>did it. Keep it up
>
>Adrian Edmonds


Thank you for the kind words. You will find that most who denigrate never
actually flew a mission or were even in combat. They just endlessley quote what
they read in books to each other. I pay no attention to wannabees and will
contine to see to it that the men I flew with are never forgotten in spite of
the wanabbes and their rendless baby talk. Besides most of their attacks are
poitically motivated and are not worth any attention whatever. Stay tuned more
to come. A lot more. We must never forget absent friends.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>From: "Ragnar"
>Date: 8/9/2004 1:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>> >From: "Mike"
>> >Date: 8/8/2004 11:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >>In other words shut your mouth and just fly your
>> >> missions.
>> >
>> >And then talk about them for the next 60 years.
>>
>>
>> If you don't want to hear about them, then just don't read them. Nobody
>is
>> forcing you to.
>
>To be fair, no one is forcing YOU to write them.

I am being forced to write them by men who I flew with who now lie buried in
foreign graves.

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
> >From: "Ragnar"
> >Date: 8/9/2004 1:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
> >> >From: "Mike"
> >> >Date: 8/8/2004 11:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >>In other words shut your mouth and just fly your
> >> >> missions.
> >> >
> >> >And then talk about them for the next 60 years.
> >>
> >>
> >> If you don't want to hear about them, then just don't read them.
Nobody
> >is
> >> forcing you to.
> >
> >To be fair, no one is forcing YOU to write them.
>
> I am being forced to write them by men who I flew with who now lie
buried in
> foreign graves.

As he again toodles out his attempt at wrapping himself in other men's glory
in an attempt to claok himself from rebuke...makes you want to gag.

Brooks

>
>
>
>

[ANDREW ROBERT BREEN]

In article >,
ArtKramr > wrote:
>>Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>>From: "Adrian"
>>Date: 8/8/2004 11:06 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>
>>Ignore the trolls. I for one, always enjoy your tales. I wish more veterans
>>did it. Keep it up

>Thank you for the kind words. You will find that most who denigrate never
>actually flew a mission or were even in combat. They just endlessley quote what

Can I second Adrian's comments? It's important for as many people out
there as possible - most of them are 2 generations removed from what
Art and his comrades (and my father and /his/) went through - to
know that war is not something that happens on TV.

Over and above that, I'm particularly interested in your take on the
air war, given that my father spent two years doing air-sea rescue
in the channel[1], much of the "custom" being US aircrews coming back
from the big daylight raids. They didn't get many Marauder survivors
though (nor many from Beaufighters - neither ditched well) and for
that reason alone rated those crews highly.

As to the "politics" that some here object to - I've noticed similar
views taken by a good proportion of WW2 veterans I've met. Those who
have said have ascribed it to having seen the elephant.

[1] ASR plus combat sweeps - the RN believed in working its coastal
craft hard.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Who dies with the most toys wins" (Gary Barnes)

[ANDREW ROBERT BREEN]

In article >,
ArtKramr > wrote:
> I am being forced to write them by men who I flew with who now lie buried in
>foreign graves.

Art - that's almost the same phrase as my father used for the reason he
wrote about /his/ war. All power to your elbow/pen/keyboard and keep
writing.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Who dies with the most toys wins" (Gary Barnes)

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 8/9/2004 6:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>> >From: "Ragnar"
>> >Date: 8/9/2004 1:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> >Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>> >> >From: "Mike"
>> >> >Date: 8/8/2004 11:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >> >Message-id: >
>> >> >
>> >> >>In other words shut your mouth and just fly your
>> >> >> missions.
>> >> >
>> >> >And then talk about them for the next 60 years.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> If you don't want to hear about them, then just don't read them.
>Nobody
>> >is
>> >> forcing you to.
>> >
>> >To be fair, no one is forcing YOU to write them.
>>
>> I am being forced to write them by men who I flew with who now lie
>buried in
>> foreign graves.
>
>As he again toodles out his attempt at wrapping himself in other men's glory
>in an attempt to claok himself from rebuke...makes you want to gag.
>
>Brooks
>

What makes me want to gag is the fact that with all the bull**** you spew you
never saw a second of combat, never fired a shot in anger, never faced an enemy
for your country. You and your bull**** make me want to gag. Don't spew your
crap about what war was like, You wouldn't know. So go back and hide under
that desk you flew as you always did when men were fighting and dying for their
country and you were nowhere to seen


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
>Date: 8/9/2004 6:44 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id:

>Over and above that, I'm particularly interested in your take on the
>air war, given that my father spent two years doing air-sea rescue
>in the channel[1], much of the "custom" being US aircrews coming back
>from the big daylight raids. They didn't get many Marauder survivors
>though (nor many from Beaufighters - neither ditched well) and for
>that reason alone rated those crews highly.

The reason there were so few Marauder suvivors is because the Marauder wouldn't
float for more that 20 seconds It would be at the bottom of the channel before
you could ever get to it. And it was not an easy plane to evacuate in 20
seconds. When we were came home from missions with damage we would all pray not
to have to ditch in the channel. As we crossed the French coast we would
strain to see the white cliffs of Dover.The most beautiful sight in the owrld.
That is where home was.
>
>As to the "politics" that some here object to - I've noticed similar
>views taken by a good proportion of WW2 veterans I've met. Those who
>have said have ascribed it to having seen the elephant.

Your father was a hero. We all revered the work doine by air sea rescue.We
never needed them, but we were sure glad they were there below us waiting to
snatch us out of the sea..
>

Thanks for the kind words. I really appreciate it.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ANDREW ROBERT BREEN]

In article >,
ArtKramr > wrote:
>>Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>>From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
>>Art - that's almost the same phrase as my father used for the reason he
>>wrote about /his/ war. All power to your elbow/pen/keyboard and keep
>>writing.

>I'lll keep witing. And I hope that my writing succeeds in some small way of
>re-creating what it was like in the air over Germany and more important, the
>men who flew those missions. They were very young . Hardly out of their teens.

That's the thing: my father's friend Norman Hanson (he who wrote "Carrier
Pilot" about his war - and for exactly the reasons you give for writing
your postings) was an old man when he went to war in 1941 - he was 26..
Most, like you say, were a lot younger.

>Many never came home. I try to remember each one of them as best I can and
>share them as best as I can. Thank you for the kind wordsYour father knows
>whereof he speaks. More to come.

Knew, unfortunately. He died earlier this year. That's made me even
more kenn that those who know what it was like share that knowledge,
otherwise people who didn't have to do that (because of what his
and your generation did) will forget - and then our children might
have to go through it all again.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
>Date: 8/9/2004 7:19 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
>ArtKramr > wrote:
>>>Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>>>From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
>>>Art - that's almost the same phrase as my father used for the reason he
>>>wrote about /his/ war. All power to your elbow/pen/keyboard and keep
>>>writing.
>
>>I'lll keep witing. And I hope that my writing succeeds in some small way of
>>re-creating what it was like in the air over Germany and more important, the
>>men who flew those missions. They were very young . Hardly out of their
>teens.
>
>That's the thing: my father's friend Norman Hanson (he who wrote "Carrier
>Pilot" about his war - and for exactly the reasons you give for writing
>your postings) was an old man when he went to war in 1941 - he was 26..
>Most, like you say, were a lot younger.
>
>>Many never came home. I try to remember each one of them as best I can and
>>share them as best as I can. Thank you for the kind wordsYour father knows
>>whereof he speaks. More to come.
>
>Knew, unfortunately. He died earlier this year. That's made me even
>more kenn that those who know what it was like share that knowledge,
>otherwise people who didn't have to do that (because of what his
>and your generation did) will forget - and then our children might
>have to go through it all again.
>
>--
>Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
> http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
> "Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
> and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)
>

Sorry about your dad. But he will be remembered by you and the band of brothers
he flew with. And it is important to remember, Pity those who have nothing to
remember..They are the saddest of all.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ANDREW ROBERT BREEN]

In article >,
ArtKramr > wrote:
>>Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>>From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
>>Date: 8/9/2004 6:44 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id:
>
>>Over and above that, I'm particularly interested in your take on the
>>air war, given that my father spent two years doing air-sea rescue
>>in the channel[1], much of the "custom" being US aircrews coming back
>>from the big daylight raids. They didn't get many Marauder survivors
>>though (nor many from Beaufighters - neither ditched well) and for
>>that reason alone rated those crews highly.
>
>The reason there were so few Marauder suvivors is because the Marauder wouldn't
>float for more that 20 seconds It would be at the bottom of the channel before
>you could ever get to it. And it was not an easy plane to evacuate in 20

Same with the Beau, they said - big, heavy and the way out was underneath.
My father's line was "no-one got out of a Beau".

>seconds. When we were came home from missions with damage we would all pray not
>to have to ditch in the channel. As we crossed the French coast we would
>strain to see the white cliffs of Dover.The most beautiful sight in the owrld.
>That is where home was.

He talked about sitting in the channel and everybody in the boat /willing/
the returning planes over the cliffs, especially the cripples at the tail
end of the stream.
The worst ones for him - for all of them on the boats - were the planes
which crashed in on ditching, either flying down through the sea mist
or trying to land on it. Grim.

>Your father was a hero. We all revered the work doine by air sea rescue.We
>never needed them, but we were sure glad they were there below us waiting to
>snatch us out of the sea..

He was always much prouder of the lives he saved - both in ASR and in the
Atlantic - than the ones he took. And I'd not argue with your description
of him.

>Thanks for the kind words. I really appreciate it.

Thank you for coming over and helping this country and this continent.
Anything I can say is kind of inadequate thanks.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

[ANDREW ROBERT BREEN]

In article >,
ArtKramr > wrote:
>>Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>
>Sorry about your dad. But he will be remembered by you and the band of brothers
>he flew with. And it is important to remember, Pity those who have nothing to
>remember..They are the saddest of all.

Sailed with, in his case. Many of his friends flew (most of those who
did died, though - they were flying in '40 through to '42 when the
RAF was flying daylight intruder sweeps into France in Blenheims),
but he was navy: Atlantic convoys, channel gunboats and ASR,
south Atlantic convoys. A different kind of war from yours, but
probably as dangerous and tough. Keeping safe the ships which brought
you, the fuel for the planes - and, in the channel, trying to save
those whose planes came down.

One of his friends who flew is still alive though - I'm trying to persuade
him to get his memories recorded somehow (he was a navigator, first
in Blenheims, then Beaus, then Mosquitos).

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
>Date: 8/9/2004 7:44 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
>ArtKramr > wrote:
>>>Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>>>From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
>>>Date: 8/9/2004 6:44 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>>Message-id:
>>
>>>Over and above that, I'm particularly interested in your take on the
>>>air war, given that my father spent two years doing air-sea rescue
>>>in the channel[1], much of the "custom" being US aircrews coming back
>>>from the big daylight raids. They didn't get many Marauder survivors
>>>though (nor many from Beaufighters - neither ditched well) and for
>>>that reason alone rated those crews highly.
>>
>>The reason there were so few Marauder suvivors is because the Marauder
>wouldn't
>>float for more that 20 seconds It would be at the bottom of the channel
>before
>>you could ever get to it. And it was not an easy plane to evacuate in 20
>
>Same with the Beau, they said - big, heavy and the way out was underneath.
>My father's line was "no-one got out of a Beau".
>
>>seconds. When we were came home from missions with damage we would all pray
>not
>>to have to ditch in the channel. As we crossed the French coast we would
>>strain to see the white cliffs of Dover.The most beautiful sight in the
>owrld.
>>That is where home was.
>
>He talked about sitting in the channel and everybody in the boat /willing/
>the returning planes over the cliffs, especially the cripples at the tail
>end of the stream.
>The worst ones for him - for all of them on the boats - were the planes
>which crashed in on ditching, either flying down through the sea mist
>or trying to land on it. Grim.
>
>>Your father was a hero. We all revered the work doine by air sea rescue.We
>>never needed them, but we were sure glad they were there below us waiting
>to
>>snatch us out of the sea..
>
>He was always much prouder of the lives he saved - both in ASR and in the
>Atlantic - than the ones he took. And I'd not argue with your description
>of him.
>
>>Thanks for the kind words. I really appreciate it.
>
>Thank you for coming over and helping this country and this continent.
>Anything I can say is kind of inadequate thanks.
>
>--
>Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
> http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
> "Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
> and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)
>

One of the things I came away with was a feeling that in some small way I wasa
part of England. Every time I return to Englasnd I feel as though it is a
small homecoming. BTW, there is a plaque at our old airifeld at Stansted
dedicated to the 344th Bomb Goup. Take a look at it if yuo are ever there. And
if you are so inclined you might want to place a small flower at the plaque.
Lest we forget.
Lest we forget.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
>Date: 8/9/2004 7:49 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
>ArtKramr > wrote:
>>>Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>>
>>Sorry about your dad. But he will be remembered by you and the band of
>brothers
>>he flew with. And it is important to remember, Pity those who have nothing
>to
>>remember..They are the saddest of all.
>
>Sailed with, in his case. Many of his friends flew (most of those who
>did died, though - they were flying in '40 through to '42 when the
>RAF was flying daylight intruder sweeps into France in Blenheims),
>but he was navy: Atlantic convoys, channel gunboats and ASR,
>south Atlantic convoys. A different kind of war from yours, but
>probably as dangerous and tough. Keeping safe the ships which brought
>you, the fuel for the planes - and, in the channel, trying to save
>those whose planes came down.
>
>One of his friends who flew is still alive though - I'm trying to persuade
>him to get his memories recorded somehow (he was a navigator, first
>in Blenheims, then Beaus, then Mosquitos).
>

Love to get him on here Keep working on him.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ANDREW ROBERT BREEN]

In article >,
ArtKramr > wrote:
>small homecoming. BTW, there is a plaque at our old airifeld at Stansted
>dedicated to the 344th Bomb Goup. Take a look at it if yuo are ever there. And
>if you are so inclined you might want to place a small flower at the plaque.

I will do that.

--
Andy Breen ~ Solar Physics Group, UW Aberystwyth
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
Silliness is the last refuge of the doomed: P. Opus

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 8/9/2004 9:48 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ANDREW ROBERT BREEN" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >,
>> ArtKramr > wrote:
>> >>Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>> >>From: "Adrian"
>> >>Date: 8/8/2004 11:06 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >>
>> >>Ignore the trolls. I for one, always enjoy your tales. I wish more
>veterans
>> >>did it. Keep it up
>>
>> >Thank you for the kind words. You will find that most who denigrate never
>> >actually flew a mission or were even in combat. They just endlessley
>quote what
>>
>> Can I second Adrian's comments? It's important for as many people out
>> there as possible - most of them are 2 generations removed from what
>> Art and his comrades (and my father and /his/) went through - to
>> know that war is not something that happens on TV.
>
>It is even more important that they get an honest view of the events--not
>claims that his unit *never* missed its target (ludicrous), that he
>gallantly went off to war while the Guard sat behind at its armories (a
>patent falsehood), etc. So your second seems to be misdirected if you are
>interested in gaining a truthful account; if on the other hand you want
>fiction, Art is indeed your best source.
>
>Brooks
>
><snip further misdirected fawning>


How would you know wannabee? If they want a good source that sure isn't you
hiding under your desk as the war raged. Have you no shame.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
>Date: 8/9/2004 8:00 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
>ArtKramr > wrote:
>>small homecoming. BTW, there is a plaque at our old airifeld at Stansted
>>dedicated to the 344th Bomb Goup. Take a look at it if yuo are ever there.
>And
>>if you are so inclined you might want to place a small flower at the plaque.
>
>I will do that.
>
>--
>Andy Breen ~ Solar Physics Group, UW Aberystwyth
>

And all of us at the 344th thank you. I will mention it at our next group
reunion which sadly may be our last..(sigh)



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Leslie Swartz]

There you go again Art-

Spouting off EXACTLY like the "titless WAF back at HQ making coffee"
wrapping yourself in the stolen war stories of your betters.

If it talks like a Duck, Walks like a Duck, and Quacks like a Duck . . . it
might not actually be a Duck, but you are sure doing a good impression of
the bragadocious little peacock with the big self esteem problem.

Steve Swartz

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >Date: 8/9/2004 6:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
> >> >From: "Ragnar"
> >> >Date: 8/9/2004 1:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> >Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
> >> >> >From: "Mike"
> >> >> >Date: 8/8/2004 11:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>In other words shut your mouth and just fly your
> >> >> >> missions.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >And then talk about them for the next 60 years.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> If you don't want to hear about them, then just don't read them.
> >Nobody
> >> >is
> >> >> forcing you to.
> >> >
> >> >To be fair, no one is forcing YOU to write them.
> >>
> >> I am being forced to write them by men who I flew with who now lie
> >buried in
> >> foreign graves.
> >
> >As he again toodles out his attempt at wrapping himself in other men's
glory
> >in an attempt to claok himself from rebuke...makes you want to gag.
> >
> >Brooks
> >
>
> What makes me want to gag is the fact that with all the bull**** you spew
you
> never saw a second of combat, never fired a shot in anger, never faced an
enemy
> for your country. You and your bull**** make me want to gag. Don't spew
your
> crap about what war was like, You wouldn't know. So go back and hide
under
> that desk you flew as you always did when men were fighting and dying for
their
> country and you were nowhere to seen
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[Leslie Swartz]

Kevin:

Did we ever find out if Art was really the one posting those "adulation"
letters to himself with pseudonyms about 8 months back?

What are the odds he's up to his old tricks?

Do you remember who was the cyber-dude who tracked him down on this?
Something about tracking back hte headers of the posts . . . Maybe we could
bust him again.

Steve Swartz




"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
> > >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> > >Date: 8/9/2004 9:48 AM Pacific Standard Time
> > >Message-id: >
> > >
> > >
> > >"ANDREW ROBERT BREEN" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >> In article >,
> > >> ArtKramr > wrote:
> > >> >>Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
> > >> >>From: "Adrian"
> > >> >>Date: 8/8/2004 11:06 PM Pacific Standard Time
> > >> >>
> > >> >>Ignore the trolls. I for one, always enjoy your tales. I wish more
> > >veterans
> > >> >>did it. Keep it up
> > >>
> > >> >Thank you for the kind words. You will find that most who denigrate
> never
> > >> >actually flew a mission or were even in combat. They just endlessley
> > >quote what
> > >>
> > >> Can I second Adrian's comments? It's important for as many people out
> > >> there as possible - most of them are 2 generations removed from what
> > >> Art and his comrades (and my father and /his/) went through - to
> > >> know that war is not something that happens on TV.
> > >
> > >It is even more important that they get an honest view of the
events--not
> > >claims that his unit *never* missed its target (ludicrous), that he
> > >gallantly went off to war while the Guard sat behind at its armories (a
> > >patent falsehood), etc. So your second seems to be misdirected if you
are
> > >interested in gaining a truthful account; if on the other hand you want
> > >fiction, Art is indeed your best source.
> > >
> > >Brooks
> > >
> > ><snip further misdirected fawning>
> >
> >
> > How would you know wannabee? If they want a good source that sure isn't
> you
> > hiding under your desk as the war raged. Have you no shame.
>
> You gotta find a new line--that one, being false (no surprise there--you
and
> lies do have an ffinity for each other), is getting a bit old. And I note
> that you have again ignored the refernece to your past false
claims....does
> running away from them really work for you?
>
> Brooks
>
> >
> >
> > Arthur Kramer
>
>

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>From: "Simcoe Warrior"
>Date: 8/9/2004 11:51 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> >Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>> >> >From: "Mike"
>> >> >Date: 8/8/2004 11:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >> >Message-id: >
>> >> >
>> >> >>In other words shut your mouth and just fly your
>> >> >> missions.
>> >> >
>> >> >And then talk about them for the next 60 years.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> If you don't want to hear about them, then just don't read them.
>Nobody
>> >is
>> >> forcing you to.
>> >
>> >To be fair, no one is forcing YOU to write them.
>>
>> I am being forced to write them by men who I flew with who now lie
>buried in
>> foreign graves.
>
>
>
>Art, I am going to weigh in here for a moment. I've lurked in here for some
>time and have always enjoyed your
>firsthand accounts of being crewmember aboard a B-26. To be blunt, I am
>appalled at the shoddy treatment
>that you are recieving from a few useless tools in this group.
>
>I don't know how old you are Art but I'm guessing I'm about 50 years younger
>than you are so obviously
>I wasn't around when WW2 was raging. But I can say this, the men that flew
>bombers deserve to be recognized
>at every opportunity for the incredible odds they faced both courageously
>and willingly.
>
>A relative of mine flew with 431 Squadron (RCAF) in Halifax bombers and
>took off one night to bomb Hamburg and
>was never seen nor heard from again. 60 years later we still don't know what
>happened to him and the 6 other young
>men that died with him. As I'm sure you know, as sad of story as this was,
>it happened all the time, just like the training
>accident that you mentioned in another thread.
>
>After researching my relative I have become obsessed with the details of
>bomber warfare and my research efforts have
>revealed that there aren't alot of veterans of the war available online in
>forums such as these. I don't understand why some people here fail to
>realise what a great resource they have by you frequenting this group - talk
>to the people that were there guys! The answers aren't all in books!
>
>Anyway Art, I hope you will continue to entertain and educate us with your
>tales, I believe I speak for the silent majority
>on this matter.


Thank you so much. It is a lot of work doing all these posts and I am always
glad to hear when they are appreciated. I tend to ignore the bitter jealousy
of the wannabees. But I will keep writing as long as I know there are those
like you who like what I write, and we must never forget our absent friends.
They are the reason for it all.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ANDREW ROBERT BREEN]

In article >,
Leslie Swartz > wrote:
> Did we ever find out if Art was really the one posting those "adulation"
>letters to himself with pseudonyms about 8 months back?
>
> What are the odds he's up to his old tricks?

In which case - go learn to use traceroute :)

I'm precisely who I say I am, and you can find proof of that easily
enough.
A few extracts of my father's accounts of /his/ war are also out
there on the WW2 Experience website. I'll make more available
when I've got them into a w3-friendly format. You might find them
instructive, but if you don't I'm unlikely to care.

People who were actually there are worth listening to. They don't
always have the full picture, they bring their biases to the party
(my father had a fairly low opinion of some of the US Navy, based
on what they brought to the Atlantic, but rated some[1] of the US
Army Air Corps fairly high). But you need to take all of the first
hand accounts on board. It's called history.

It's worth reading and learning. You begin to appreciate this
with time.

[1] Not the ones in Mustangs which shot at him.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

[Mike]

"ANDREW ROBERT BREEN" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Leslie Swartz > wrote:
> > Did we ever find out if Art was really the one posting those
"adulation"
> >letters to himself with pseudonyms about 8 months back?
> >
> > What are the odds he's up to his old tricks?
>
> In which case - go learn to use traceroute :)
>
> I'm precisely who I say I am, and you can find proof of that easily
> enough.
> A few extracts of my father's accounts of /his/ war are also out
> there on the WW2 Experience website. I'll make more available
> when I've got them into a w3-friendly format. You might find them
> instructive, but if you don't I'm unlikely to care.
>
> People who were actually there are worth listening to. They don't
> always have the full picture, they bring their biases to the party
> (my father had a fairly low opinion of some of the US Navy, based
> on what they brought to the Atlantic, but rated some[1] of the US
> Army Air Corps fairly high). But you need to take all of the first
> hand accounts on board. It's called history.
>
> It's worth reading and learning. You begin to appreciate this
> with time.
>
> [1] Not the ones in Mustangs which shot at him.
>
What did they know that we don't? (joke, joke, joke)

> --
> Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
> http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
> "Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
> and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

[Ragnar]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
> >From: "Ragnar"
> >Date: 8/9/2004 1:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
> >> >From: "Mike"
> >> >Date: 8/8/2004 11:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >>In other words shut your mouth and just fly your
> >> >> missions.
> >> >
> >> >And then talk about them for the next 60 years.
> >>
> >>
> >> If you don't want to hear about them, then just don't read them.
Nobody
> >is
> >> forcing you to.
> >
> >To be fair, no one is forcing YOU to write them.
>
> I am being forced to write them by men who I flew with who now lie
buried in
> foreign graves.

Then you need psychiatric help.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>From: "Ragnar"
>Date: 8/9/2004 2:13 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>> >From: "Ragnar"
>> >Date: 8/9/2004 1:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> >Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>> >> >From: "Mike"
>> >> >Date: 8/8/2004 11:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >> >Message-id: >
>> >> >
>> >> >>In other words shut your mouth and just fly your
>> >> >> missions.
>> >> >
>> >> >And then talk about them for the next 60 years.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> If you don't want to hear about them, then just don't read them.
>Nobody
>> >is
>> >> forcing you to.
>> >
>> >To be fair, no one is forcing YOU to write them.
>>
>> I am being forced to write them by men who I flew with who now lie
>buried in
>> foreign graves.
>
>Then you need psychiatric help.


Those of us dedicated to the memory of those we fought with need psychiatric
help? I would say the need is all yours.

..
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>From: "Ragnar"
>Date: 8/9/2004 7:44 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>> >From: "Ragnar"
>> >Date: 8/9/2004 2:13 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> >Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>> >> >From: "Ragnar"
>> >> >Date: 8/9/2004 1:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >> >Message-id: >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> >> >Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
>> >> >> >From: "Mike"
>> >> >> >Date: 8/8/2004 11:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >> >> >Message-id: >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>In other words shut your mouth and just fly your
>> >> >> >> missions.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >And then talk about them for the next 60 years.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If you don't want to hear about them, then just don't read them.
>> >Nobody
>> >> >is
>> >> >> forcing you to.
>> >> >
>> >> >To be fair, no one is forcing YOU to write them.
>> >>
>> >> I am being forced to write them by men who I flew with who now lie
>> >buried in
>> >> foreign graves.
>> >
>> >Then you need psychiatric help.
>>
>>
>> Those of us dedicated to the memory of those we fought with need
>psychiatric
>> help? I would say the need is all yours.
>
>Hey, I'm not the who just admitted that dead people talk to him. Admission
>is the first step to recovery. Now all you have to do is get professional
>treatment.


I think I'll start by just throwing out the garbage,

PLONK !!!



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Ragnar]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
> >From: "Ragnar"
> >Date: 8/9/2004 7:44 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
> >> >From: "Ragnar"
> >> >Date: 8/9/2004 2:13 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> >Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
> >> >> >From: "Ragnar"
> >> >> >Date: 8/9/2004 1:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> >> >> ...
> >> >> >> >Subject: Re: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
> >> >> >> >From: "Mike"
> >> >> >> >Date: 8/8/2004 11:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>In other words shut your mouth and just fly your
> >> >> >> >> missions.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >And then talk about them for the next 60 years.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> If you don't want to hear about them, then just don't read them.
> >> >Nobody
> >> >> >is
> >> >> >> forcing you to.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >To be fair, no one is forcing YOU to write them.
> >> >>
> >> >> I am being forced to write them by men who I flew with who now lie
> >> >buried in
> >> >> foreign graves.
> >> >
> >> >Then you need psychiatric help.
> >>
> >>
> >> Those of us dedicated to the memory of those we fought with need
> >psychiatric
> >> help? I would say the need is all yours.
> >
> >Hey, I'm not the who just admitted that dead people talk to him.
Admission
> >is the first step to recovery. Now all you have to do is get
professional
> >treatment.
>
>
> I think I'll start by just throwing out the garbage,
>
> PLONK !!!

Yes, you've said that before. I note that you replied to this thread after
allegedly plonking me, which means your PLONK is full of hot air.