Bomber Pilots Never Look Down

[ArtKramr]

Bomber Pilots Never Look Down

I was surprised to learn that bomber pilots never looked down. We flew all our
missions out of Florennes Belgium by doing our join-ups over Liege. We would
take off, get on a climbing heading for Liege, then do a wide, slow 360 while
the group joined up, each plane getting into the slot behind the plane it was
forming on. Then East into Germany. As a bombardier navigator, it wasn't long
before everything on the ground was etched in my memory. Every town, city,
river, rail line, lake was as familiar to me as the back of my hand. But not so
to many others. The war had ended and we now flew 4-hour missions to maintain
proficiency and earn our flight pay. On one of these missions Paul, our pilot
said, "Art, we are just going to do some stalls and engine outs so why don't
you go back into the nav compartment and take a snooze".

I did just that. After a while the intercom came alive and Paul said, "Ok Art,
all done. Take us home". I grabbed my sectionals, my E6-B and my Wheems plotter
and started forward for the nose. As I got between Bob and Paul I looked out
the windshield and there was Liege big as life. What the hell! Were these guys
pulling my leg? There is no way they couldn't recognize Liege, our join up
point for every mission we flew out of Florennes. I didn't get into the nose I
just pointed about 20 degrees left and said that way. You'll see the runway of
about 12 minutes". Paul said, "C'mon Art, stop screwing around. Get in the nose
and take us home". "That way Paul" I said. "Trust me" Paul shook his head in
disbelief but did as I directed and sure enough there was the runway in the ETA
I gave him. When we landed he said, "How the hell did you do that? How did you
know where we were so fast?" I said, "Are you guys kidding me? That was Liege
we were over. Don't tell me you can't recognize Liege when you see it?

Both Paul and Bob looked embarrassed. Further conversations revealed the truth.
Bomber pilots have their eyes glued to the plane they are forming on. Their
total attention is to the formation. They never looked down. The landmarks
which every bombagator knows by heart, is a mystery to most bomber pilots who
only see the plane they are formed on.

But this incident was good for lots of laughs on flights to come. When we
would cross the Rhine I would say, "hey guys that's the Rhine. And see those
two big church steeples?, that's Cologne. Remember all that stuff and maybe you
won't always have to wake me up to take you home".




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[The Enlightenment]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
>
> I was surprised to learn that bomber pilots never looked down. We flew all
our
> missions out of Florennes Belgium by doing our join-ups over Liege. We
would
> take off, get on a climbing heading for Liege, then do a wide, slow 360
while
> the group joined up, each plane getting into the slot behind the plane it
was
> forming on. Then East into Germany. As a bombardier navigator, it wasn't
long
> before everything on the ground was etched in my memory. Every town, city,
> river, rail line, lake was as familiar to me as the back of my hand. But
not so
> to many others. The war had ended and we now flew 4-hour missions to
maintain
> proficiency and earn our flight pay. On one of these missions Paul, our
pilot
> said, "Art, we are just going to do some stalls and engine outs so why
don't
> you go back into the nav compartment and take a snooze".

You took a snooze while he stalled the plane?

[buf3]

(ArtKramr) wrote in message >...
> Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
>
> I was surprised to learn that bomber pilots never looked down. We flew all our
> missions out of Florennes Belgium by doing our join-ups over Liege. We would
> take off, get on a climbing heading for Liege, then do a wide, slow 360 while
> the group joined up, each plane getting into the slot behind the plane it was
> forming on. Then East into Germany. As a bombardier navigator, it wasn't long
> before everything on the ground was etched in my memory. Every town, city,
> river, rail line, lake was as familiar to me as the back of my hand. But not so
> to many others. The war had ended and we now flew 4-hour missions to maintain
> proficiency and earn our flight pay. On one of these missions Paul, our pilot
> said, "Art, we are just going to do some stalls and engine outs so why don't
> you go back into the nav compartment and take a snooze".
>
> I did just that. After a while the intercom came alive and Paul said, "Ok Art,
> all done. Take us home". I grabbed my sectionals, my E6-B and my Wheems plotter
> and started forward for the nose. As I got between Bob and Paul I looked out
> the windshield and there was Liege big as life. What the hell! Were these guys
> pulling my leg? There is no way they couldn't recognize Liege, our join up
> point for every mission we flew out of Florennes. I didn't get into the nose I
> just pointed about 20 degrees left and said that way. You'll see the runway of
> about 12 minutes". Paul said, "C'mon Art, stop screwing around. Get in the nose
> and take us home". "That way Paul" I said. "Trust me" Paul shook his head in
> disbelief but did as I directed and sure enough there was the runway in the ETA
> I gave him. When we landed he said, "How the hell did you do that? How did you
> know where we were so fast?" I said, "Are you guys kidding me? That was Liege
> we were over. Don't tell me you can't recognize Liege when you see it?
>
> Both Paul and Bob looked embarrassed. Further conversations revealed the truth.
> Bomber pilots have their eyes glued to the plane they are forming on. Their
> total attention is to the formation. They never looked down. The landmarks
> which every bombagator knows by heart, is a mystery to most bomber pilots who
> only see the plane they are formed on.
>
> But this incident was good for lots of laughs on flights to come. When we
> would cross the Rhine I would say, "hey guys that's the Rhine. And see those
> two big church steeples?, that's Cologne. Remember all that stuff and maybe you
> won't always have to wake me up to take you home".
>
>
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

This is a good story and jogs my rapidly failing memory. I spent years
as an instructor and evaluator beating pilots over the head for this
very thing. I once hitched a ride with a B-52 crew from Guam to
Shreveport, Louisiana. Before we got off the ground I had already
decided this was not a crew. It was just six uncoordinated individuals
flying on the same heading. I was disgusted by the lack of leadership
shown by the aircraft commander. All he could do was drive the bus
and toot the horn and he didn't even do that very well. Anyway,
between Guam and Hickam the navigator decided that he was lost and
asked the pilot to call someone and try to get a DF steer. Although it
was a clear day and the pilots had a map, they had never looked at it
because, after all, we were over the great Pacific Ocean -- right? I
did some quick DR in my head and asked for the map. I then told the
pilots to look over the nose of the aircraft and tell me what they
saw. There was Midway showing up as clearly as a diamond in a goat's
ass. We were on time and about two miles right of course. Later that
day I had to get in the copilots seat and complete an air refueling
the pilot could not handle. Several years later when I was at SAC
Headquarters this pilot's name came up for a staff job there. I
vetoed him immediately without reservation.

Gene Myers
Old BUFF pilot

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
>From: (buf3)
>Date: 8/13/2004 3:48 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote in message
>...
>> Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
>>
>> I was surprised to learn that bomber pilots never looked down. We flew all
>our
>> missions out of Florennes Belgium by doing our join-ups over Liege. We
>would
>> take off, get on a climbing heading for Liege, then do a wide, slow 360
>while
>> the group joined up, each plane getting into the slot behind the plane it
>was
>> forming on. Then East into Germany. As a bombardier navigator, it wasn't
>long
>> before everything on the ground was etched in my memory. Every town, city,
>> river, rail line, lake was as familiar to me as the back of my hand. But
>not so
>> to many others. The war had ended and we now flew 4-hour missions to
>maintain
>> proficiency and earn our flight pay. On one of these missions Paul, our
>pilot
>> said, "Art, we are just going to do some stalls and engine outs so why
>don't
>> you go back into the nav compartment and take a snooze".
>>
>> I did just that. After a while the intercom came alive and Paul said, "Ok
>Art,
>> all done. Take us home". I grabbed my sectionals, my E6-B and my Wheems
>plotter
>> and started forward for the nose. As I got between Bob and Paul I looked
>out
>> the windshield and there was Liege big as life. What the hell! Were these
>guys
>> pulling my leg? There is no way they couldn't recognize Liege, our join up
>> point for every mission we flew out of Florennes. I didn't get into the
>nose I
>> just pointed about 20 degrees left and said that way. You'll see the
>runway of
>> about 12 minutes". Paul said, "C'mon Art, stop screwing around. Get in the
>nose
>> and take us home". "That way Paul" I said. "Trust me" Paul shook his head
>in
>> disbelief but did as I directed and sure enough there was the runway in the
>ETA
>> I gave him. When we landed he said, "How the hell did you do that? How did
>you
>> know where we were so fast?" I said, "Are you guys kidding me? That was
>Liege
>> we were over. Don't tell me you can't recognize Liege when you see it?
>>
>> Both Paul and Bob looked embarrassed. Further conversations revealed the
>truth.
>> Bomber pilots have their eyes glued to the plane they are forming on. Their
>> total attention is to the formation. They never looked down. The landmarks
>> which every bombagator knows by heart, is a mystery to most bomber pilots
>who
>> only see the plane they are formed on.
>>
>> But this incident was good for lots of laughs on flights to come. When we
>> would cross the Rhine I would say, "hey guys that's the Rhine. And see
>those
>> two big church steeples?, that's Cologne. Remember all that stuff and maybe
>you
>> won't always have to wake me up to take you home".
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>> 344th BG 494th BS
>> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>
>This is a good story and jogs my rapidly failing memory. I spent years
>as an instructor and evaluator beating pilots over the head for this
>very thing. I once hitched a ride with a B-52 crew from Guam to
>Shreveport, Louisiana. Before we got off the ground I had already
>decided this was not a crew. It was just six uncoordinated individuals
>flying on the same heading. I was disgusted by the lack of leadership
>shown by the aircraft commander. All he could do was drive the bus
>and toot the horn and he didn't even do that very well. Anyway,
>between Guam and Hickam the navigator decided that he was lost and
>asked the pilot to call someone and try to get a DF steer. Although it
>was a clear day and the pilots had a map, they had never looked at it
>because, after all, we were over the great Pacific Ocean -- right? I
>did some quick DR in my head and asked for the map. I then told the
>pilots to look over the nose of the aircraft and tell me what they
>saw. There was Midway showing up as clearly as a diamond in a goat's
>ass. We were on time and about two miles right of course. Later that
>day I had to get in the copilots seat and complete an air refueling
>the pilot could not handle. Several years later when I was at SAC
>Headquarters this pilot's name came up for a staff job there. I
>vetoed him immediately without reservation.
>
>Gene Myers
>Old BUFF pilot
>


Great post. Loved it. Few realise how many bad pilots are around. And the
first guy on the crew to realise that you've got a lousy pilot is the
bombardier. Just fly a bomb run with a guy and you have his measure
fast.Sounds like your guy had a pick-up crew rather than a team that has flown
together for a while. I had a great pilot. Lt. Col Paul Shorts (Lake Charles
LA). Flew accurate, precise bomb runs. He was a pilot that bombardiers dream
of. I would have voted to give your pilot that staff job. Get him the hell out
of airplanes where he might hurt someone. Interesting post. Got any more? Love
to hear 'em.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Robert Briggs]

ArtKramr wrote:
> buf3 wrote:
> > ArtKramr wrote:

> > > I was surprised to learn that bomber pilots never looked down.

Maybe *your* bomber pilot didn't look down as much as you would have
expected, but even that leaves two obvious questions.

How do you justify extrapolating from one example to "bomber pilots"
in general?

Did you have to call out directions to him on final approach at the
end of each mission?

> > Later that day I had to get in the copilots seat and complete an
> > air refueling the pilot could not handle. Several years later
> > when I was at SAC Headquarters this pilot's name came up for a
> > staff job there. I vetoed him immediately without reservation.

> I would have voted to give your pilot that staff job. Get him the
> hell out of airplanes where he might hurt someone.

I guess the wisdom of that would depend on the staff job in question:
after all, guys behind desks have a habit of sending aviators into
harm's way.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
>From: Robert Briggs
>Date: 8/13/2004 10:09 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>> buf3 wrote:
>> > ArtKramr wrote:
>
>> > > I was surprised to learn that bomber pilots never looked down.
>
>Maybe *your* bomber pilot didn't look down as much as you would have
>expected, but even that leaves two obvious questions.
>
>How do you justify extrapolating from one example to "bomber pilots"
>in general?
>
>Did you have to call out directions to him on final approach at the
>end of each mission?
>
>> > Later that day I had to get in the copilots seat and complete an
>> > air refueling the pilot could not handle. Several years later
>> > when I was at SAC Headquarters this pilot's name came up for a
>> > staff job there. I vetoed him immediately without reservation.
>
>> I would have voted to give your pilot that staff job. Get him the
>> hell out of airplanes where he might hurt someone.
>
>I guess the wisdom of that would depend on the staff job in question:
>after all, guys behind desks have a habit of sending aviators into
>harm's way.


Harm's way is the name of the game.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Howard Berkowitz]

In article >,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

> >Subject: Re: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
> >From: Robert Briggs
> >Date: 8/13/2004 10:09 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >ArtKramr wrote:
> >> buf3 wrote:
> >> > ArtKramr wrote:
> >
> >> > > I was surprised to learn that bomber pilots never looked down.
> >
> >Maybe *your* bomber pilot didn't look down as much as you would have
> >expected, but even that leaves two obvious questions.
> >
> >How do you justify extrapolating from one example to "bomber pilots"
> >in general?
> >
> >Did you have to call out directions to him on final approach at the
> >end of each mission?
> >
> >> > Later that day I had to get in the copilots seat and complete an
> >> > air refueling the pilot could not handle. Several years later
> >> > when I was at SAC Headquarters this pilot's name came up for a
> >> > staff job there. I vetoed him immediately without reservation.
> >
> >> I would have voted to give your pilot that staff job. Get him the
> >> hell out of airplanes where he might hurt someone.
> >
> >I guess the wisdom of that would depend on the staff job in question:
> >after all, guys behind desks have a habit of sending aviators into
> >harm's way.
>
>
> Harm's way is the name of the game.
>

The name of the game is winning, and conserving your resources as best
you can so you can win the next game. Yes, the targeting staff could
just say "hit this target". Even then, and I realize the choices are
much more complex today, someone has to pick the right ordnance so you
don't have to go back.

But it may be staff guys that pick ingress and egress routes that thread
you through gaps in the air defense network. It may be staff guys who
plan deceptive feints to draw defenders away from the true hard target.

It may very well be not-even-rated staff operations research analysts
that figure out the most effective fighter coverage, the best bomb
patterns, etc. The engineers that designed the plane, the weapons, the
navaids, etc., may not even be "staff".

There are warriors that also can do very well with staff assignments --
Jimmy Doolittle was clearly one. People like that are national treasures
-- but so was Kelly Johnson.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
>From: Robert Briggs
>Date: 8/13/2004 10:09 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <411CF5AF.A92C4F07@BITphysi

>How do you justify extrapolating from one example to "bomber pilots"
>in general?

Easy. All bomber pilots have one thing in common. They fly in formation eyes
fixed on the plane thay are formed on. No chance to look down. At least that is
my esperience, what is your experience?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Jack]

Robert Briggs wrote:

> Maybe *your* bomber pilot didn't look down as much as you would have
> expected, but even that leaves two obvious questions.
>
> How do you justify extrapolating from one example to "bomber pilots"
> in general?
>
> Did you have to call out directions to him on final approach at the
> end of each mission?

After reading this post, I am beginning to see things Art's way.

F---ing wannabees have no clue, just a keyboard and an attitude.


Jack

[Dave Holford]

ArtKramr wrote:
>
> >Subject: Re: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
> >From: Robert Briggs
> >Date: 8/13/2004 10:09 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: <411CF5AF.A92C4F07@BITphysi
>
> >How do you justify extrapolating from one example to "bomber pilots"
> >in general?
>
> Easy. All bomber pilots have one thing in common. They fly in formation eyes
> fixed on the plane thay are formed on. No chance to look down. At least that is
> my esperience, what is your experience?
>
> Arthur Kramer
>

Might be true for B-26 pilots in the ETO during WWII. But that is a long
way from "All bomber pilots."

Dave

[Jack G]

"Dave Holford" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> ArtKramr wrote:
> >
> > >Subject: Re: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
> > >From: Robert Briggs
> > >Date: 8/13/2004 10:09 AM Pacific Standard Time
> > >Message-id: <411CF5AF.A92C4F07@BITphysi
> >
> > >How do you justify extrapolating from one example to "bomber pilots"
> > >in general?
> >
> > Easy. All bomber pilots have one thing in common. They fly in formation
eyes
> > fixed on the plane thay are formed on. No chance to look down. At least
that is
> > my esperience, what is your experience?
> >
> > Arthur Kramer
> >
>
> Might be true for B-26 pilots in the ETO during WWII. But that is a long
> way from "All bomber pilots."
>
> Dave

Not in Art's little world...

Jack G.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
>From: "Jack G"
>Date: 8/14/2004 6:07 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>
>"Dave Holford" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>
>> ArtKramr wrote:
>> >
>> > >Subject: Re: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
>> > >From: Robert Briggs
>> > >Date: 8/13/2004 10:09 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> > >Message-id: <411CF5AF.A92C4F07@BITphysi
>> >
>> > >How do you justify extrapolating from one example to "bomber pilots"
>> > >in general?
>> >
>> > Easy. All bomber pilots have one thing in common. They fly in formation
>eyes
>> > fixed on the plane thay are formed on. No chance to look down. At least
>that is
>> > my esperience, what is your experience?
>> >
>> > Arthur Kramer
>> >
>>
>> Might be true for B-26 pilots in the ETO during WWII. But that is a long
>> way from "All bomber pilots."
>>
>> Dave
>
>Not in Art's little world...
>
>Jack G.

If you call WW II a "little world", what war would you call a big world? And
did you fight in it?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Jack G]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
> >From: "Jack G"
> >Date: 8/14/2004 6:07 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >
> >"Dave Holford" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >>
> >> ArtKramr wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >Subject: Re: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
> >> > >From: Robert Briggs
> >> > >Date: 8/13/2004 10:09 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >> > >Message-id: <411CF5AF.A92C4F07@BITphysi
> >> >
> >> > >How do you justify extrapolating from one example to "bomber pilots"
> >> > >in general?
> >> >
> >> > Easy. All bomber pilots have one thing in common. They fly in
formation
> >eyes
> >> > fixed on the plane thay are formed on. No chance to look down. At
least
> >that is
> >> > my esperience, what is your experience?
> >> >
> >> > Arthur Kramer
> >> >
> >>
> >> Might be true for B-26 pilots in the ETO during WWII. But that is a
long
> >> way from "All bomber pilots."
> >>
> >> Dave
> >
> >Not in Art's little world...
> >
> >Jack G.
>
> If you call WW II a "little world", what war would you call a big world?
And
> did you fight in it?
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

Art,

I wish you could read what others post. I did not say WW II was a small
world, I said your world was very small - which it is.

Jack G.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
>From: "Jack G"
>Date: 8/14/2004 8:56 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
>> >From: "Jack G"
>> >Date: 8/14/2004 6:07 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >"Dave Holford" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ArtKramr wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > >Subject: Re: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
>> >> > >From: Robert Briggs
>> >> > >Date: 8/13/2004 10:09 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >> > >Message-id: <411CF5AF.A92C4F07@BITphysi
>> >> >
>> >> > >How do you justify extrapolating from one example to "bomber pilots"
>> >> > >in general?
>> >> >
>> >> > Easy. All bomber pilots have one thing in common. They fly in
>formation
>> >eyes
>> >> > fixed on the plane thay are formed on. No chance to look down. At
>least
>> >that is
>> >> > my esperience, what is your experience?
>> >> >
>> >> > Arthur Kramer
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Might be true for B-26 pilots in the ETO during WWII. But that is a
>long
>> >> way from "All bomber pilots."
>> >>
>> >> Dave
>> >
>> >Not in Art's little world...
>> >
>> >Jack G.
>>
>> If you call WW II a "little world", what war would you call a big world?
>And
>> did you fight in it?
>>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>> 344th BG 494th BS
>> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>>
>
>Art,
>
>I wish you could read what others post. I did not say WW II was a small
>world, I said your world was very small - which it is.
>
>Jack G.
>

It's even smaller now.
PLONK



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Jack G]

> >>
> >
> >Art,
> >
> >I wish you could read what others post. I did not say WW II was a small
> >world, I said your world was very small - which it is.
> >
> >Jack G.
> >
>
> It's even smaller now.
> PLONK
>
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>
Art,

You give up far too easily.

Jack G.

[Kevin Brooks]

"Jack G" > wrote in message
...
> > >>
> > >
> > >Art,
> > >
> > >I wish you could read what others post. I did not say WW II was a
small
> > >world, I said your world was very small - which it is.
> > >
> > >Jack G.
> > >
> >
> > It's even smaller now.
> > PLONK
> >
> >
> >
> > Arthur Kramer
> > 344th BG 494th BS
> > England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> > Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> > http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
> >
> Art,
>
> You give up far too easily.

No, he doesn't; if he holds true to form, he'll be arguing with you again in
a week or so. I suspect he actually does not know how to use a message
block, as he has a long history of "plonking" folks and then responding to
them immediately afterwards. Which brings into question whether or not he
ever really knew how to use his Norden bombsite...

Brooks

>
> Jack G.
>
>

[buf3]

(ArtKramr) wrote in message >...
> >Subject: Re: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
> >From: (buf3)
> >Date: 8/13/2004 3:48 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> (ArtKramr) wrote in message
> >...
> >> Bomber Pilots Never Look Down

Big snip.

Interesting post. Got any more? Love
> to hear 'em.
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Well, I might lose my membership in the pilot's union if I tell too
many. There was the crew that was returning from Thule, Greenland to
Kincheloe, AFB, Michigan who got so far west of course that they
didn't have enough fuel to get home and had to land at Grand Forks,
ND. The RN was asleep (it was a 24 hour mission and the crew was not
augmented) and the young navigator didn't detect a bad heading error
in his equipment by cross checking other indicators. Of course, it
was a clear day and the pilots did not notice that they were on the
wrong side of Hudson Bay or over the wrong end of Lake Superior. The
poor navigator was called "Magellen" by his squadron mates for a long
time after.

Then there was the bomb/nav team that forgot to change convergance
angles when they changed maps as they turned west near the north pole.
They almost got over the USSR with six nuclear weapons (four internal
and two Hound Dogs). They had to land in Alaska because they were too
late for their second air refueling. That crew was disbanded and the
members were individually dispersed to other crews as soon as they
landed back at Kincheloe.

Gene Myers

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
>From: (buf3)
>Date: 8/15/2004 11:20 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote in message
>...
>> >Subject: Re: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
>> >From: (buf3)
>> >Date: 8/13/2004 3:48 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> (ArtKramr) wrote in message
>> >...
>> >> Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
>
>Big snip.
>
> Interesting post. Got any more? Love
>> to hear 'em.
>>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>> 344th BG 494th BS
>> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>
>Well, I might lose my membership in the pilot's union if I tell too
>many. There was the crew that was returning from Thule, Greenland to
>Kincheloe, AFB, Michigan who got so far west of course that they
>didn't have enough fuel to get home and had to land at Grand Forks,
>ND. The RN was asleep (it was a 24 hour mission and the crew was not
>augmented) and the young navigator didn't detect a bad heading error
>in his equipment by cross checking other indicators. Of course, it
>was a clear day and the pilots did not notice that they were on the
>wrong side of Hudson Bay or over the wrong end of Lake Superior. The
>poor navigator was called "Magellen" by his squadron mates for a long
>time after.
>
>Then there was the bomb/nav team that forgot to change convergance
>angles when they changed maps as they turned west near the north pole.
> They almost got over the USSR with six nuclear weapons (four internal
>and two Hound Dogs). They had to land in Alaska because they were too
>late for their second air refueling. That crew was disbanded and the
>members were individually dispersed to other crews as soon as they
>landed back at Kincheloe.
>
>Gene Myers

Love it Gene. Got a story of my own wth a much sadder ending. We had hit the
target over Germany and were now heading home. We were flying deputy lead in
the high flight and I was tracing our course on my sectionals. What the f--ck!
The lead navigator was taking us right over Frankfort. There were hundreds of
88's defending Frankfurt., we would get the **** shot out of us. Well wait a
minute, I'll recheck, that can't be right.lI'll check again. Yup. We were
headed straight for Frankfort. Gotta tell him but can't break radio silence.
****, we are getting too damn close to Frank.....BOOM BOOOM BOOM BOOM. Thy sky
was fillefd with flak. One plane low and to our left took a direct hit and
burst into flame spiraling down. A second plane was hit. No chutes seen 6 more
crew lost. Then silence.We had passed overFrankfort. A nav error and 12 good
men dead. These are things that keep you awake nights for years afterword
After we landed that navigator was gone never to be seen or heard of again.
There are nav errors we can laugh about. Then there are nav errors we can
only cry about. (sigh)



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Robert Briggs]

ArtKramr wrote:
> Robert Briggs wrote:
>
> > How do you justify extrapolating from one example to "bomber pilots"
> > in general?
>
> Easy. All bomber pilots have one thing in common. They fly in formation
> eyes fixed on the plane thay are formed on. No chance to look down.
> At least that is my esperience, what is your experience?

"All bomber pilots", eh?

Sticking to your day-time B-26 raids, there must be at least one per
raid to which your argument cannot apply.

Not to mention the fact that the set of "all" bomber pilots (even in
WWII, let alone ever since the first grenade was dropped over the
side of a WWI biplane) includes Guy Gibson and Don Bennett ...

I don't need any *personal* experience to realise that yours is far
too limited to justify some of your generalisations.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
>From: Robert Briggs
>Date: 8/16/2004 10:59 AM Pac

>I don't need any *personal* experience to realise that yours is far
>too limited to justify some of your generalisations.

And you obviously have none. Don't like what I write? don't read it.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Robert Briggs]

ArtKramr wrote:
> Robert Briggs wrote:
>
> > I don't need any *personal* experience to realise that yours is
> > far too limited to justify some of your generalisations.
>
> And you obviously have none. Don't like what I write? don't read it.

Art, I just wish you would be a little more careful in how you
express things.

By all means tell us of your own experiences, but *please* don't
make unwarranted extrapolations.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomber Pilots Never Look Down
>From: Robert Briggs
>Date: 8/16/2004 11:27 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>> Robert Briggs wrote:
>>
>> > I don't need any *personal* experience to realise that yours is
>> > far too limited to justify some of your generalisations.
>>
>> And you obviously have none. Don't like what I write? don't read it.
>
>Art, I just wish you would be a little more careful in how you
>express things.
>
>By all means tell us of your own experiences, but *please* don't
>make unwarranted extrapolations.
>

Look human parience is limited. The story appeared on my website clearly
entitled WW II. So this guy attacks my premise on the basis of WW I and the
kitchen sink, Enough is enough. Dammit !



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer