Enlisted Heritage

[SteveM8597]

From the 80th Fighter Squadron Assocation organization head Col Jay Riedel,
USAF Ret, on a project to recognize the Enlisted that have kept our squadron
going from WWII in the Pacific in P-38s to the present with F-16s.

"Thanks for the contact--good to hear from you. No, we don't have a specific
Enlisted Heritage of the 80th; however, I wholeheartedly agree with you--it is
a very important part of our Squadron History, and needs to be assembled. At
each reunion banquet, I recognize all of our Squadron Aces in the audience
(getting to be a very short list), then all the past Sq Commanders, general
officers, and the spouses that keep things running smooth at home. Then, last
but not least, all the Enlisted men/women in the audience--as I point out that
even our Aces couldn't get off the ground, if it were not for all of our ground
personnel that maintain the birds, fix and load the weapons, keep our personal
equipment working perfectly, and all our Squadron records up to date and
accurate. "Not one of these groups of Squadron people could do the mission on
their own--it takes ALL of these parts working together to make the fine honed
whole of what our Squadron is, and always has been--a symbol of excellence in
the Fighter Community."

[Kevin Brooks]

"SteveM8597" > wrote in message
...
> From the 80th Fighter Squadron Assocation organization head Col Jay
Riedel,
> USAF Ret, on a project to recognize the Enlisted that have kept our
squadron
> going from WWII in the Pacific in P-38s to the present with F-16s.
>
> "Thanks for the contact--good to hear from you. No, we don't have a
specific
> Enlisted Heritage of the 80th; however, I wholeheartedly agree with
you--it is
> a very important part of our Squadron History, and needs to be assembled.
At
> each reunion banquet, I recognize all of our Squadron Aces in the audience
> (getting to be a very short list), then all the past Sq Commanders,
general
> officers, and the spouses that keep things running smooth at home. Then,
last
> but not least, all the Enlisted men/women in the audience--as I point out
that
> even our Aces couldn't get off the ground, if it were not for all of our
ground
> personnel that maintain the birds, fix and load the weapons, keep our
personal
> equipment working perfectly, and all our Squadron records up to date and
> accurate. "Not one of these groups of Squadron people could do the
mission on
> their own--it takes ALL of these parts working together to make the fine
honed
> whole of what our Squadron is, and always has been--a symbol of excellence
in
> the Fighter Community."

I wonder if Art has bothered to read and absorb this...the good Colonel is
obviously qualified to lecture him in this regard.

Brooks

[Steve Mellenthin]

>I wonder if Art has bothered to read and absorb this...the good Colonel is
>obviously qualified to lecture him in this regard.
>
>Brooks
>

I was hoping he would but then I am not holding my breath, sadly.

[Jack G]

> I wonder if Art has bothered to read and absorb this...the good Colonel is
> obviously qualified to lecture him in this regard.
>
> Brooks

With "Enlisted" in the subject line - not a chance.

Jack G.

[WaltBJ]

"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message >...
> "SteveM8597" > wrote in message
> ...
> SNIP:>
> I wonder if Art has bothered to read and absorb this...the good Colonel is
> obviously qualified to lecture him in this regard.
>
> Brooks

Kevin - I doubt very much if Art needs any advice on the contributions
made by the enlisted men of his outfit. Note that most aerial gunners
were enlisted, and valued members of the crew. BTW, I myself was a
corporal working on the flight line before I went to Aviation Cadets.
Walt BJ

[BUFDRVR]

WaltBJ wrote:

>Kevin - I doubt very much if Art needs any advice on the contributions
>made by the enlisted men of his outfit. Note that most aerial gunners
>were enlisted, and valued members of the crew.

Except in Kramer's case, that's where the appreciation ends. The enlisted men
fixing and maintaining his aircraft, weapons builders and loaders, military
police and *every* other enlisted serving in his bomb group are valueless who
made no contribution to the war what ever as far as Kramer is concerned.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Kevin Brooks]

"WaltBJ" > wrote in message
om...
> "Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
>...
> > "SteveM8597" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > SNIP:>
> > I wonder if Art has bothered to read and absorb this...the good Colonel
is
> > obviously qualified to lecture him in this regard.
> >
> > Brooks
>
> Kevin - I doubt very much if Art needs any advice on the contributions
> made by the enlisted men of his outfit. Note that most aerial gunners
> were enlisted, and valued members of the crew. BTW, I myself was a
> corporal working on the flight line before I went to Aviation Cadets.

Then you have obviously not read many of Art's posts on the subject; he has
routinely denigrated the service of those personnel that provided the
support required to get and keep his aircraft in the air, and ISTR his
getting into a little ****ing match with a former RCAF flight engineer
(where has Gord been lately?) in this group when he made a statement
regarding how some of the tasks of the flight crew were obviously beyond the
mental capabilities of a mere sergeant.

Brooks

> Walt BJ

[Pete]

"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
...
>
> "WaltBJ" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > "SteveM8597" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > SNIP:>
> > > I wonder if Art has bothered to read and absorb this...the good
Colonel
> is
> > > obviously qualified to lecture him in this regard.
> > >
> > > Brooks
> >
> > Kevin - I doubt very much if Art needs any advice on the contributions
> > made by the enlisted men of his outfit. Note that most aerial gunners
> > were enlisted, and valued members of the crew. BTW, I myself was a
> > corporal working on the flight line before I went to Aviation Cadets.
>
> Then you have obviously not read many of Art's posts on the subject; he
has
> routinely denigrated the service of those personnel that provided the
> support required to get and keep his aircraft in the air, and ISTR his
> getting into a little ****ing match with a former RCAF flight engineer
> (where has Gord been lately?) in this group when he made a statement
> regarding how some of the tasks of the flight crew were obviously beyond
the
> mental capabilities of a mere sergeant.
>

Let's not forget that all ground crew (incl cooks, admin, supply, etc) are
"interchangeable".

And ISTR him talking down to a former longtime armament specialist about
fuze construction, damage, and repair thereof...:)

Pete

[Andrew Chaplin]

Kevin Brooks wrote:

> Then you have obviously not read many of Art's posts on the subject; he has
> routinely denigrated the service of those personnel that provided the
> support required to get and keep his aircraft in the air, and ISTR his
> getting into a little ****ing match with a former RCAF flight engineer
> (where has Gord been lately?) in this group when he made a statement
> regarding how some of the tasks of the flight crew were obviously beyond the
> mental capabilities of a mere sergeant.

Gord is lurking in news:can.community.military where he is taken no
more -- no less -- seriously than he was here, but we're slightly more
polite when we pooh-pooh him, as we Canadians ought to be.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[B2431]

>Date: 8/20/2004 4:27 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "WaltBJ" > wrote in message
>> om...
>> > "Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
>> >...
>> > > "SteveM8597" > wrote in message
>> > > ...
>> > > SNIP:>
>> > > I wonder if Art has bothered to read and absorb this...the good
>Colonel
>> is
>> > > obviously qualified to lecture him in this regard.
>> > >
>> > > Brooks
>> >
>> > Kevin - I doubt very much if Art needs any advice on the contributions
>> > made by the enlisted men of his outfit. Note that most aerial gunners
>> > were enlisted, and valued members of the crew. BTW, I myself was a
>> > corporal working on the flight line before I went to Aviation Cadets.
>>
>> Then you have obviously not read many of Art's posts on the subject; he
>has
>> routinely denigrated the service of those personnel that provided the
>> support required to get and keep his aircraft in the air, and ISTR his
>> getting into a little ****ing match with a former RCAF flight engineer
>> (where has Gord been lately?) in this group when he made a statement
>> regarding how some of the tasks of the flight crew were obviously beyond
>the
>> mental capabilities of a mere sergeant.
>>
>
>Let's not forget that all ground crew (incl cooks, admin, supply, etc) are
>"interchangeable".
>
>And ISTR him talking down to a former longtime armament specialist about
>fuze construction, damage, and repair thereof...:)
>
>Pete

Art has also made it clear he genuinely feels he could have flown all his
missions without any support personnel at all.

He still hasn't figured out he was just another GI just like the rest of us who
have ever served. I have yet to understand how his combat experience had any
more value than mine.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Enlisted Heritage
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 8/20/2004 4:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Date: 8/20/2004 4:27 PM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>
>>"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>> "WaltBJ" > wrote in message
>>> om...
>>> > "Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
>>> >...
>>> > > "SteveM8597" > wrote in message
>>> > > ...
>>> > > SNIP:>
>>> > > I wonder if Art has bothered to read and absorb this...the good
>>Colonel
>>> is
>>> > > obviously qualified to lecture him in this regard.
>>> > >
>>> > > Brooks
>>> >
>>> > Kevin - I doubt very much if Art needs any advice on the contributions
>>> > made by the enlisted men of his outfit. Note that most aerial gunners
>>> > were enlisted, and valued members of the crew. BTW, I myself was a
>>> > corporal working on the flight line before I went to Aviation Cadets.
>>>
>>> Then you have obviously not read many of Art's posts on the subject; he
>>has
>>> routinely denigrated the service of those personnel that provided the
>>> support required to get and keep his aircraft in the air, and ISTR his
>>> getting into a little ****ing match with a former RCAF flight engineer
>>> (where has Gord been lately?) in this group when he made a statement
>>> regarding how some of the tasks of the flight crew were obviously beyond
>>the
>>> mental capabilities of a mere sergeant.
>>>
>>
>>Let's not forget that all ground crew (incl cooks, admin, supply, etc) are
>>"interchangeable".
>>
>>And ISTR him talking down to a former longtime armament specialist about
>>fuze construction, damage, and repair thereof...:)
>>
>>Pete
>
>Art has also made it clear he genuinely feels he could have flown all his
>missions without any support personnel at all.
>
>He still hasn't figured out he was just another GI just like the rest of us
>who
>have ever served. I have yet to understand how his combat experience had any
>more value than mine.
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


You are a bold faced liar. I always valued our gunners and ground crews.and
you are a bag of crap.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Pete]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
>
> You are a bold faced liar. I always valued our gunners and ground
crews.and
> you are a bag of crap.

Maybe you did, Art. But that's not the impression we get from your writings
in here.

Pete

[Steve Mellenthin]

>always valued our gunners and ground
>crews.and
>> you are a bag of crap.
>
>Maybe you did, Art. But that's not the impression we get from your writings
>in here.
>
>

Art, I likewise got the impression from your wordsthat you considered the
enlisted and especially ground crews as lower life forms compared to officer
aircrew members. If you respect the people who supported you, why not
acknowledge their contributions on your web page.

Steve

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Enlisted Heritage
>From: "Pete"
>Date: 8/20/2004 5:23 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>>
>> You are a bold faced liar. I always valued our gunners and ground
>crews.and
>> you are a bag of crap.
>
>Maybe you did, Art. But that's not the impression we get from your writings
>in here.
>
>Pete


Well you got the wrong impression.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Enlisted Heritage
>From: "Pete"
>Date: 8/20/2004 5:23 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>>
>> You are a bold faced liar. I always valued our gunners and ground
>crews.and
>> you are a bag of crap.
>
>Maybe you did, Art. But that's not the impression we get from your writings
>in here.
>
>Pete


Go to my website and read " Sgt. Greigo's Flak Jacket". That will clarify the
situation.






Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[B2431]

>From: "Pete"
>Date: 8/20/2004 7:23 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>>
>> You are a bold faced liar. I always valued our gunners and ground
>crews.and
>> you are a bag of crap.
>
>Maybe you did, Art. But that's not the impression we get from your writings
>in here.
>
>Pete

Funny how when I told him that the men who fed him, armed and maintained his
B-26, shuffled papers etc he told me their service wasn't as important as his.
When I asked him how he could do his mission without them he made it clear they
he didn't need them. He pointed out his additional duties etc as if he could do
those jobs and still fly those missions with no help from the non fliers. This
is the gist of what said. He can dance around all he wants, but he did say
this.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Enlisted Heritage
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 8/20/2004 7:44 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>From: "Pete"
>>Date: 8/20/2004 7:23 PM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>
>>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>>
>>>
>>> You are a bold faced liar. I always valued our gunners and ground
>>crews.and
>>> you are a bag of crap.
>>
>>Maybe you did, Art. But that's not the impression we get from your writings
>>in here.
>>
>>Pete
>
>Funny how when I told him that the men who fed him, armed and maintained his
>B-26, shuffled papers etc he told me their service wasn't as important as
>his.
>When I asked him how he could do his mission without them he made it clear
>they
>he didn't need them. He pointed out his additional duties etc as if he could
>do
>those jobs and still fly those missions with no help from the non fliers.
>This
>is the gist of what said. He can dance around all he wants, but he did say
>this.
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>

You know where you can stick your gist asshole.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Jack G]

Profanity is not helping your cause Mr. Kramer. A well reasoned and
articulated response isn't going to help either, but it would be more
enjoyable reading.

Jack G

>
> You know where you can stick your gist asshole.
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Enlisted Heritage
>From: "Jack G"
>Date: 8/20/2004 8:12 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Profanity is not helping your cause Mr. Kramer. A well reasoned and
>articulated response isn't going to help either, but it would be more
>enjoyable reading.
>
>Jack G

You don't like what I write, don't read it.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[BUFDRVR]

>Go to my website and read " Sgt. Greigo's Flak Jacket". That will clarify the
>situation.

No it won't. Greigo was on your crew with you. You've made it clear you value
their service. You've also made it clear you think the guys that built your
bombs, loaded them on you plane and serviced your plane (along with the cooks,
admin, MPs, etc.) were of no value to the U.S. effort in Europe.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[John Keeney]

"Steve Mellenthin" > wrote in message
...
> >always valued our gunners and ground
> >crews.and
> >> you are a bag of crap.
> >
> >Maybe you did, Art. But that's not the impression we get from your
writings
> >in here.
> >
> >
>
> Art, I likewise got the impression from your wordsthat you considered the
> enlisted and especially ground crews as lower life forms compared to
officer
> aircrew members. If you respect the people who supported you, why not
> acknowledge their contributions on your web page.

No contradiction there, it's possible to value lower life forms.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Enlisted Heritage
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 8/20/2004 9:30 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Go to my website and read " Sgt. Greigo's Flak Jacket". That will clarify
>the
>>situation.
>
>No it won't. Greigo was on your crew with you. You've made it clear you
>value
>their service. You've also made it clear you think the guys that built your
>bombs, loaded them on you plane and serviced your plane (along with the
>cooks,
>admin, MPs, etc.) were of no value to the U.S. effort in Europe.
>
>
>BUFDRVR



You are full of **** as usual. Lying *******.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Enlisted Heritage
>From: "John Keeney"
>Date: 8/20/2004 11:10 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Steve Mellenthin" > wrote in message
...
>> >always valued our gunners and ground
>> >crews.and
>> >> you are a bag of crap.
>> >
>> >Maybe you did, Art. But that's not the impression we get from your
>writings
>> >in here.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Art, I likewise got the impression from your wordsthat you considered the
>> enlisted and especially ground crews as lower life forms compared to
>officer
>> aircrew members. If you respect the people who supported you, why not
>> acknowledge their contributions on your web page.
>
>No contradiction there, it's possible to value lower life forms.


Read Sgt Greigo's Flak Jacket on my website.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[BUFDRVR]

ArtKramr wrote:

>You are full of **** as usual. Lying *******.

Don't make me do a Google search and hang with your own words. Off the top of
my head I can paraphrase your opinion of the ground crews. They were
replaceable (as if you and your crew weren't). Doesn't sound like you value
someones service when the best thing you can say about them was they were
replaceable. You've also slandered their contributions several times by
insisting that because they didn't overfly enemy territory they were some how
less than equal (considerably less) with you in their service.

You're a sorry, profane (recent development) old man and you have my pity.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"