No one awards themselves medals.

[ArtKramr]

Medal are awarded by supererior officers based on reports, investigations and
recommendations. Kerry didn't award himself anything. And the neocons who say
he did are all liars as usual.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[OXMORON1]

Art wrote:
>Medal are awarded by supererior officers based on reports, investigations and
>recommendations. Kerry didn't award himself anything. And the neocons who
>say
>he did are all liars as usual.
>

That is an over simplification of the process Art. It is also kind of like
efficiency reports, anyone rated less than superior is dead as far as career
moves.

The standard practice in my era was to recommend an individual for an award at
least one above what you wanted him to get, want him to get a Bronze Star, put
him in for a Silver Star. It gets a little bit dicey when the person really
deserve a higher award and you can't get it for them.

Also remember Art, superior officers tend not to do the work, the enlisted men
(remember those guys?) usually do the research and buck the report up to the
officer in charge of awards, who then sends it up to the next level, etc.

Also remember the purple heart is almost automatic, just a minimal amount of
paperwork required.

I personally know an RF-4 crew who got Bronze Stars for leaving their camera on
an instant too long while jinking and "accidentally" took photos of a target
that had been missed by three other crews. The paperwork made them look like
the best recce crew in the world. They deserved Silver Stars for other missions
that never got written up, so their commander let it ride.

Awards are controlled by fate, some you deserve, some you don't, usually it
evens out if you live long enough. If you are a great politician, you can get
yourself enough fruit salad to cause you to lean to the left by just protecting
the main O'club bar, but they don't mean squat in the Stag Bar.

Rick Clark

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> Medal are awarded by supererior officers based on reports, investigations
and
> recommendations. Kerry didn't award himself anything. And the neocons who
say
> he did are all liars as usual.

You are of course again wrong. Only high level awards require
investigations, and yes, there indeed have been plenty of folks who went off
lobbying to get a PH for themselves; besides your buddy Kerry, there was the
fellow CWO my brother served with in Vietnam who broke his toe trying to get
into a bunker during a rocket attack against their base in Danang--unlike
Kerry, however, his attempt was turned down.

Brooks
>
>
> Arthur Kramer

[B2431]

>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 8/19/2004 3:32 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> Medal are awarded by supererior officers based on reports, investigations
>and
>> recommendations. Kerry didn't award himself anything. And the neocons who
>say
>> he did are all liars as usual.
>
>You are of course again wrong. Only high level awards require
>investigations, and yes, there indeed have been plenty of folks who went off
>lobbying to get a PH for themselves; besides your buddy Kerry, there was the
>fellow CWO my brother served with in Vietnam who broke his toe trying to get
>into a bunker during a rocket attack against their base in Danang--unlike
>Kerry, however, his attempt was turned down.
>
>Brooks
>>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer

I don't recall anyone ever saying kerry awarded himself anything. First off he
didn't have the authority and second all the people questioning his awards and
decorations know this.

It seems art has once again attempted to stir things up. I wonder if he can
find a single verifiable instance where a "neocon" said kerry awarded himself
anything.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[BUFDRVR]

Dan wrote:

>I don't recall anyone ever saying kerry awarded himself anything.

I haven't heard anyone claim he awarded himself his medals, just that he
*submitted* himself for the medals.

I'm at the point now where I'm ready to support a Constitutional amendment
barring *any* person between the age of 50 and 65 (Vietnam era service age)
from serving as President of the U.S. Sorry Ed ;)


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[OXMORON1]

Buffdrvr wrote:
>I'm at the point now where I'm ready to support a Constitutional amendment
>barring *any* person between the age of 50 and 65 (Vietnam era service age)
>from serving as President of the U.S. Sorry Ed ;)

That is going to be a tough one to draft (pun intended). It will have to be a
"rolling age" law until we are all dead :-).

I will support your effort if you include 80plus year old college student,
photographer, retired ad-men. Also ex Warrant officer bomb aimer/navigators and
anyone who even remotely kisses their rears on a newsgroup.

Rick

[Michael Wise]

In article >,
(BUFDRVR) wrote:

> >I don't recall anyone ever saying kerry awarded himself anything.
>
> I haven't heard anyone claim he awarded himself his medals, just that he
> *submitted* himself for the medals.
>
> I'm at the point now where I'm ready to support a Constitutional amendment
> barring *any* person between the age of 50 and 65 (Vietnam era service age)
> from serving as President of the U.S. Sorry Ed ;)


Along with a bronze dunce cap for Shrub's pappy...to thank him, his
campaign staff, and many of his followers for making it in issue when it
suited them (eight years of attacks on Clinton). It's quite entertaining
to watch them now panicking in a whirlpool of feigned disgust that the
issue they invented is only relevant when it applies to their opponents.


--Mike

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: No one awards themselves medals.
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 8/19/2004 5:13 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Dan wrote:
>
>>I don't recall anyone ever saying kerry awarded himself anything.
>
>I haven't heard anyone claim he awarded himself his medals, just that he
>*submitted* himself for the medals.
>
>I'm at the point now where I'm ready to support a Constitutional amendment
>barring *any* person between the age of 50 and 65 (Vietnam era service age)
>from serving as President of the U.S. Sorry Ed ;)
>
>
>BUFDRVR
>
>"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
>harelips
>everyone on Bear Creek"
>

Except of course unless they have actually seen combat.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: No one awards themselves medals.
>From: (OXMORON1)
>Date: 8/19/2004 5:31 PM Pacific Standard Time

>I will support your effort if you include 80plus year old college student,
>photographer, retired ad-men. Also ex Warrant officer bomb aimer/navigators
>and
>anyone who even remotely kisses their rears on a newsgroup.
>
>Rick

You are a moron aren't you? You are well named. Go screw yourself.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[David Lesher]

Michael Wise > writes:



>Along with a bronze dunce cap for Shrub's pappy...to thank him, his
>campaign staff, and many of his followers for making it in issue when it
>suited them (eight years of attacks on Clinton). It's quite entertaining
>to watch them now panicking in a whirlpool of feigned disgust that the
>issue they invented is only relevant when it applies to their opponents.

This oh so reminds me of Ma Bell's ******* kids. They all demanded
/min "reciprocal compensation" for all calls from other local
carriers, inc. cell phone co's.

Then the internet boom hit and all the ISP's moved to their competitors.
So they received 1000's of minutes of calls, from homes served by
VZ/SBC/BS/etc. Guess who was on the short end NOW?

They SCREAMED, but lost in court case after case, and PSC after PSC hearing.
Finally, their hero Mikey Powell declared competition was only good if the
Bells profited, and overrode the existing rules.
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[BUFDRVR]

Rick wrote:

>It will have to be a
>"rolling age" law until we are all dead :-).
>

Good point, consider that added to the amendment.

>I will support your effort if you include 80plus year old college student,
>photographer, retired ad-men. Also ex Warrant officer bomb aimer/navigators
>and
>anyone who even remotely kisses their rears on a newsgroup.
>

You've got a deal.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

ArtKramr wrote:

>>I'm at the point now where I'm ready to support a Constitutional amendment
>>barring *any* person between the age of 50 and 65 (Vietnam era service age)
>>from serving as President of the U.S. Sorry Ed ;)
>>
>>
>>BUFDRVR

>Except of course unless they have actually seen combat.
>

WRONG! "Seeing" combat has exactly the square root of jack **** to do with
being President. The prisons and mental institutions of this country are chock
full of people who have "seen" combat and I don't consider them qualified to
serve in the nations highest office. The DNC was correct 12 years ago when they
said what a person did (or didn't do) during the Vietnam conflict has nothing
to do with their qualifications to be President, hell, Kerry himself said that!



BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: No one awards themselves medals.
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 8/19/2004 8:54 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>
>>>I'm at the point now where I'm ready to support a Constitutional amendment
>>>barring *any* person between the age of 50 and 65 (Vietnam era service age)
>>>from serving as President of the U.S. Sorry Ed ;)
>>>
>>>
>>>BUFDRVR
>
>>Except of course unless they have actually seen combat.
>>
>
>WRONG! "Seeing" combat has exactly the square root of jack **** to do with
>being President. The prisons and mental institutions of this country are
>chock
>

Since you have zero experience being president, you have zero credibility on
that subject. BTW, what is your real name and why are you hiding it?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Billy Beck]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>>From: (BUFDRVR)

>>WRONG! "Seeing" combat has exactly the square root of jack **** to do with
>>being President. The prisons and mental institutions of this country are
>>chock

>Since you have zero experience being president, you have zero credibility on
>that subject.

Just like *you*. So; close your insipid yap, you rotten old
goof.


Billy

http://www.two--four.net/weblog.php

[Ragnar]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: No one awards themselves medals.
> >From: (OXMORON1)
> >Date: 8/19/2004 5:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
>
> >I will support your effort if you include 80plus year old college
student,
> >photographer, retired ad-men. Also ex Warrant officer bomb
aimer/navigators
> >and
> >anyone who even remotely kisses their rears on a newsgroup.
> >
> >Rick
>
> You are a moron aren't you? You are well named. Go screw yourself.

Methinks the truth was well aimed and the target didn't like hearing the
truth.

[Ragnar]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: No one awards themselves medals.
> >From: (BUFDRVR)
> >Date: 8/19/2004 8:54 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >ArtKramr wrote:
> >
> >>>I'm at the point now where I'm ready to support a Constitutional
amendment
> >>>barring *any* person between the age of 50 and 65 (Vietnam era service
age)
> >>>from serving as President of the U.S. Sorry Ed ;)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>BUFDRVR
> >
> >>Except of course unless they have actually seen combat.
> >>
> >
> >WRONG! "Seeing" combat has exactly the square root of jack **** to do
with
> >being President. The prisons and mental institutions of this country are
> >chock
> >
>
> Since you have zero experience being president, you have zero credibility
on
> that subject. BTW, what is your real name and why are you hiding it?

And what are your credentials to talk about who should be president? Hmmmm?

Funny, this little thing that Art wrote several weeks ago:

"Let's suppose you hav never been laid but want to know what it is like. So
you
buy every book and read them carefully. Now you know. You feel quite expert
even though you have never actually been laid. But one day you meet a guy
who
has been laid and he tells you what it is like. But you are outraged. That
is
not what it said in the books. This guy is obviously a fraud, He knows
nothing
and you have the books to prove it. And these books are written by expertss
on
sex. So you know best. Now lets take war, Yu have never been to war but read
lot of books, reports etc so you feel you really have it all down cold. Then
you meet a guy who has actually been to war and what he tells you doesn't
agree
with what you read. So obviously this guy who has been to war knows nothing
while you who have never been to was know everything. You accuse him of
lying
and call him a fraud. Maybe you need to do two things:"

Looks like Art is a hypocrit (again) . . . . . .

[buf3]

(BUFDRVR) wrote in message >...

> I'm at the point now where I'm ready to support a Constitutional amendment
> barring *any* person between the age of 50 and 65 (Vietnam era service age)
> from serving as President of the U.S. Sorry Ed ;)
>
>
> BUFDRVR


Well, I am 70 and served in NAM. I also know a lot of folks older
than that who did.

Gene Myers
Older BUFDRIVER

[OXMORON1]

Gene wrote:
>Well, I am 70 and served in NAM. I also know a lot of folks older
>than that who did.
>

But Gene, Do you want to be President?
If so, Bufdrvr will write an exclusion for you in his amendment. He has about
as much political pull as anyone else in this newsgroup :-)

If you you are a "Senior" Buffdriver, did you also have some B-47 time? That
would probably put you in the LeMay era, any comments on him?

Rick Clark

[OXMORON1]

Art wrote:
>You are a moron aren't you? You are well named. Go screw yourself.
>

Gee Art, that hurt my feelings, well maybe not considering your attitude
lately.

Rick
aka oxmoron1 (oxymoron1 was taken years ago and I lost it in a computer change,
so I do know how to spell oxymoron)

[GuiltyBystander9]

ArtKramr wrote:

>>From: (BUFDRVR)

> what is your real name and why are you hiding it?

If he's active military (as he is), he is exercizing reasonable caution. For
those not, the reasons could be many, including being too well known. For
example, if George Bush 41 wanted to chat about naval aviation in world war too
would he post under his real name?

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: No one awards themselves medals.
>From: (GuiltyBystander9)
>Date: 8/20/2004 10:33 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>
>>>From: (BUFDRVR)
>
>> what is your real name and why are you hiding it?
>
>If he's active military (as he is), he is exercizing reasonable caution. For
>those not, the reasons could be many, including being too well known. For
>example, if George Bush 41 wanted to chat about naval aviation in world war
>too
>would he post under his real name?
>
>

Y'mean bufdrv is really George Bush? wow. now it all makes sense


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[BUFDRVR]

ArtKramr wrote:

>BTW, what is your real name and why are you hiding it?

I don't post my real name to avoid the hassels that come with that.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

Gene Myers wrote:

>Well, I am 70 and served in NAM. I also know a lot of folks older
>than that who did.

Damn! I thought I had done the math correctly on that one? OK Gene, you've
convinced me, consider the amendment changed to include those between 50 and
75. I'm sorry to crush your candidacy before it got started ;)


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

Rick Clark wrote:

>>Well, I am 70 and served in NAM. I also know a lot of folks older
>>than that who did.
>>
>
>But Gene, Do you want to be President?
>If so, Bufdrvr will write an exclusion for you in his amendment.

Even better! Consider former B-52 crewmembers excluded from the exclusion. I'd
exclude former Thud drivers Ed, but that would be too many people ;)


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Ed Rasimus]

On 20 Aug 2004 20:59:42 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

>Rick Clark wrote:
>
>>>Well, I am 70 and served in NAM. I also know a lot of folks older
>>>than that who did.
>>>
>>
>>But Gene, Do you want to be President?
>>If so, Bufdrvr will write an exclusion for you in his amendment.
>
>Even better! Consider former B-52 crewmembers excluded from the exclusion. I'd
>exclude former Thud drivers Ed, but that would be too many people ;)
>
>
>BUFDRVR

Having, in a moment of incredible foolishness, mistakenly run for low
political office in the past (city council and state legislature), I
have now reformed and have no ambitions toward high, medium or low
political office of any kind.

If nominated I will go fishing and if elected I will fail to show up
for work. I promise!

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: No one awards themselves medals.
>From: Ed Rasimus
>Date: 8/20/2004 2:42 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 20 Aug 2004 20:59:42 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:
>
>>Rick Clark wrote:
>>
>>>>Well, I am 70 and served in NAM. I also know a lot of folks older
>>>>than that who did.
>>>>
>>>
>>>But Gene, Do you want to be President?
>>>If so, Bufdrvr will write an exclusion for you in his amendment.
>>
>>Even better! Consider former B-52 crewmembers excluded from the exclusion.
>I'd
>>exclude former Thud drivers Ed, but that would be too many people ;)
>>
>>
>>BUFDRVR
>
>Having, in a moment of incredible foolishness, mistakenly run for low
>political office in the past (city council and state legislature), I
>have now reformed and have no ambitions toward high, medium or low
>political office of any kind.
>
>If nominated I will go fishing and if elected I will fail to show up
>for work. I promise!


The good soldier Schweik


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Billy Beck]

Ed Rasimus > wrote:

>Having, in a moment of incredible foolishness, mistakenly run for low
>political office in the past (city council and state legislature), I
>have now reformed and have no ambitions toward high, medium or low
>political office of any kind.
>
>If nominated I will go fishing and if elected I will fail to show up
>for work. I promise!

My only sister's husband won election to the village council.
He'd announced his run before Dad died, and, naturally Dad was
appalled and horrified. "A politician... *in the family*!" Scott has
discovered that The Ol'Man was always right, and proposes to reduce
the number of seats in the council by 20%, with his being the first to
go. He's not making just blinding headway on the thing.

"The saddest life is that of a political aspirant under
democracy. His failure is ignominious, and his success is
disgraceful."

(H. L. Mencken, Baltimore Evening Sun, December 9, 1929)


Billy

http://www.two--four.net/weblog.php

[Kevin Brooks]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...

<snip>

>
> If nominated I will go fishing and if elected I will fail to show up
> for work. I promise!

Ah-ha! So you and Kerry *do* have at least one thing in common... :-)

(Given his poor attendance at committee hearings, etc....)

Brooks

>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> "Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
> Both from Smithsonian Books
> ***www.thunderchief.org

[BUFDRVR]

Ed Rasimus wrote:

>If nominated I will go fishing and if elected I will fail to show up
>for work. I promise!

So that's a positive vote for the exclusion of Thud and Vietnam era F-4 pilots
from the Presidency, although I'm apt to remove the restriction for Naval F-4
pilots so as not to impede Duke Cunnigham's run for President should he go that
route. Any other large groups who should be given a waiver for the "BUFDRVR
amendment"?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Yeff]

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:42:08 -0600, Ed Rasimus wrote:

> If nominated I will go fishing and if elected I will fail to show up
> for work. I promise!

Ed Rasimus for President!

--

-Jeff B.
yeff at erols dot com

[David Lesher]

Ed Rasimus > writes:


>Having, in a moment of incredible foolishness, mistakenly run for low
>political office in the past (city council and state legislature), I
>have now reformed and have no ambitions toward high, medium or low
>political office of any kind.

>If nominated I will go fishing and if elected I will fail to show up
>for work. I promise!


| PALMER, Mass., Aug. 19 (UPI) -- Neighbors looked on as a
|Massachusetts woman killed her husband by running over him five
|times with a minivan after he abandoned her on a fishing trip.


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[buf3]

(OXMORON1) wrote in message >...
> Gene wrote:
> >Well, I am 70 and served in NAM. I also know a lot of folks older
> >than that who did.
> >
>
> But Gene, Do you want to be President?
> If so, Bufdrvr will write an exclusion for you in his amendment. He has about
> as much political pull as anyone else in this newsgroup :-)
>
> If you you are a "Senior" Buffdriver, did you also have some B-47 time? That
> would probably put you in the LeMay era, any comments on him?
>
> Rick Clark

I have no political aspirations. I subscribe to the old saying:
"Fools names and faces are often found in public places."

I have about 800 hours of RB-47 and B-47 time to go with my 5,000 plus
hours of B-52 time.

There are thousands of LeMay stories. The last time I saw him was at
bombing competition symposium at Barksdale AFB, LA. He was retired
and living in California. I was standing next to him at a
pre-ceremony cocktail party when a Brit walked up wearing an RAF
squadron tie. LeMay admired the tie and offered to trade his for it.
The Brit was delighted with the exchange. They exchanged their ties
right there. The Brit told me: "You have no idea what a LeMay tie is
worth at home!" Later LeMay was asked to address the SAC and RAF
crews and staff. He said he was impressed with the bombing scores and
added: "You guys are getting better accuracy than the design
parameters of the equipment you are using." He also said: "When I was
CINCSAC and a winner walked up on this stage, he walked off one rank
higher."

Gene Myers