Swift Boat Guys Caught in Some Great Big Lies

[WalterM140]

"But Thurlow's military records, portions of which were released yesterday to
The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act, contain several
references to 'enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire' directed at 'all
units' of the five-boat flotilla. Thurlow won his own Bronze Star that day, and
the citation praises him for providing assistance to a damaged Swift boat
'despite enemy bullets flying about him.'"

One of the repetitious claims of "Unit for Command" is that Kerry himself
manufactured the gunfire when recording the moment for posterity and for his
own medals. Kerry had nothing to do with Thurlow's citation, so even if the
gunfire is still a fiction, as Thurlow continues to insist, the allegation that
Kerry made up the event has acquired a flimsiness almost unworthy of further
discussion.

We still haven't heard why Adrian Lonsdale decided to laud Kerry in 1996 and
attack him in 2004.

And why Capt. George Elliott has changed his tune at least five times —
singing Kerry's praises Kerry in Vietnam, then apparently turning against him
after; praising him in 1996; criticizing him in the Swift Boat add in 2004;
then changing his mind to Michael Kranish; then signing an affidavit
repudiating his repudiation.

More than the generic "who's funding them" — which, by its very nature leaves
the Democratic 527/Kerry campaign nexus off the hook, we have these questions:

Who brought these folks together? Who put them in touch with their publisher?
Who else attends these "strategy sessions" in Arlington we hear about? And why
the New York Post never even looked at the dope sheet for the "poll" they cited
yesterday about independents and the swift boat ad?

Read an excerpt, courtesy of the adoring Washington Times : LINK
<http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040819-123903-5094r.htm>

Writes the Wall Street Journal 's editorial board: "We wish this Presidential
election had nothing at all to do with Vietnam. There were good people who
served and good people who didn't, good people who supported the war and good
people who protested it. What happened really shouldn't be an issue more than
30 years later unless you lie about it. So why do the Democrats keep bringing
Vietnam up, and to their own detriment?"

The New York Times ed board weighs in too. LINK
<http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/19/opinion/19thu2.html>

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/TheNote/TheNote.html

More:

Jack Stewardson, in the November 4, 1996, issue of South Coast Today
<http://www.s-t.com/daily/11-96/11-04-96/d01lo120.htm>, wrote:

"Adrian Lonsdale remembers a young John F. Kerry as a naval officer who was a
good debater, even back in his days in Vietnam.

"'He and I and others used to have long discussions at the officers club,' said
Mr. Lonsdale of Mattapoisett, a former Coast Guard officer who commanded a
division in which the Massachusetts senator was attached back in 1969. 'They
were very spirited discussions about the war and the politics back home.'

"'He was opposed to the war but it didn't make any difference in his
performance,' said the former owner and still instructor at Northeast Maritime
Institute in New Bedford. 'He was a very good officer.' "Capt. Lonsdale was
among a group of former Vietnam veterans the Massachusetts Democrat brought to
the Charlestown navy yard recently to rebut a Boston Globe column that raised
questions about Sen. Kerry's Vietnam service, particularly the Silver Star he
won.

"Mr. Lonsdale was in charge of a two-division flotilla opereating [sic] out of
Phu Quoc, a big island near the Cambodian border. One division was made up of
Swift boats, fast 50-foot offshore boats, while the other was composed of
82-foot Coast Guard patrol boats."

More:

"Several of those who appear in the ad have signed brief affidavits, and we
have posted some of them in the "supporting documents" section to the right for
our visitors to evaluate for themselves.

One of those affidavits, signed by George Elliott, quickly became
controversial. Elliott is the retired Navy captain who had recommended Kerry
for his highest decoration for valor, the Silver Star, which was awarded for
events of Feb. 28, 1969, when Kerry beached his boat in the face of an enemy
ambush and then pursued and killed an enemy soldier on the shore.

Elliott, who had been Kerry's commanding officer, was quoted by the Boston
Globe Aug 6 as saying he had made a "terrible mistake" in signing the affidavit
against Kerry, in which Elliott suggested Kerry hadn't told him the truth about
how he killed the enemy soldier. Later Elliott signed a second affidavit saying
he still stands by the words in the TV ad. But Elliott also made what he called
an "immaterial clarification" - saying he has no first-hand information that
Kerry was less than forthright about what he did to win the Silver Star.

What Elliott said in the ad is that Kerry "has not been honest about what
happened in Viet Nam." In his original affidavit Elliott said Kerry had not
been "forthright" in Vietnam. The only example he offered of Kerry not being
"honest" or "forthright" was this: "For example, in connection with his Silver
Star, I was never informed that he had simply shot a wounded, fleeing Viet Cong
in the back.

In the Globe story, Elliott is quoted as saying it was a "terrible mistake" to
sign that statement:

George Elliott (Globe account): It was a terrible mistake probably for me to
sign the affidavit with those words. I'm the one in trouble here. . . . I knew
it was wrong . . . In a hurry I signed it and faxed it back. That was a
mistake.

In his second affidavit, however, Elliott downgraded that "terrible mistake" to
an "immaterial clarification." He said in the second affidavit:

Elliott (second affidavit): I do not claim to have personal knowledge as to how
Kerry shot the wounded, fleeing Viet Cong.

Elliott also said he now believes Kerry shot the man in the back, based on
other accounts including a book in which Kerry is quoted as saying of the
soldier, "He was running away with a live B-40 (rocket launcher) and, I
thought, poised to turn around and fire it." (The book quoted by Elliott is
John F. Kerry, The Complete Biography, By The Reporters Who Know Him Best.)

Elliott also says in that second affidavit, "Had I known the facts, I would not
have recommended Kerry for the Silver Star for simply pursuing and dispatching
a single, wounded, fleeing Viet Cong." That statement is misleading, however.
It mischaracterizes the actual basis on which Kerry received his decoration.

The official citations show Kerry was not awarded the Silver Star "for simply
pursuing and dispatching" the Viet Cong. In fact, the killing is not even
mentioned in two of the three versions of the official citation (see
"supporting documents" at right.) The citations - based on what Elliott wrote
up at the time - dwell mostly on Kerry's decision to attack rather than flee
from two ambushes, including one in which he led a landing party.

The longest of the citations, signed by Vice Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, commander of
U.S. naval forces in Vietnam, describes Kerry as killing a fleeing Viet Cong
with a loaded rocket launcher. It says that as Kerry beached his boat to attack
his second set of ambushers, "an enemy soldier sprang up from his position not
ten feet from Patrol Craft Fast 94 and fled. Without hesitation, Lieutenant
(junior grade) KERRY leaped ashore, pursued the man behind a hooch, and killed
him, capturing a B-40 rocket launcher with a round in the chamber."

Two other citations omit any mention of the killing. One was signed by Admiral
John J. Hyland, commander in chief of the Pacific Fleet, and the other was
signed by the Secretary of the Navy. Both those citations say Kerry attacked
his first set of ambushers and that "this daring and courageous tactic
surprised the enemy and succeeded in routing a score of enemy soldiers." Later,
800 yards away, Kerry's boat encountered a second ambush and a B-40 rocket
exploded "close aboard" Kerry's boat. "With utter disregard for his own safety,
and the enemy rockets, he again ordered a charge on the enemy, beached his boat
only ten feet away from the VC rocket position, and personally led a landing
party ashore in pursuit of the enemy." In these citations there is no mention
of enemy casualties at all. Kerry was cited for "extraordinary daring and
personal courage . . . in attacking a numerically superior force in the face of
intense fire."

Elliott had previously defended Kerry on that score when his record was
questioned during his 1996 Senate campaign. At that time Elliott came to Boston
and said Kerry acted properly and deserved the Silver Star. And as recently as
June, 2003, Elliott called Kerry's Silver Star "well deserved" and his action
"courageous" for beaching his boat in the face of an ambush:

Elliott (Boston Globe, June 2003): I ended up writing it up for a Silver Star,
which is well deserved, and I have no regrets or second thoughts at all about
that. . . . (It) was pretty courageous to turn into an ambush even though you
usually find no more than two or three people there.

Elliott now feels differently, and says he has come to believe Kerry didn't
deserve his second award for valor, either, based only on what the other
anti-Kerry veterans have told him. He told the Globe Aug. 6:

Elliott: I have chosen to believe the other men. I absolutely do not know first
hand."

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=231


Okay, next subject. I actually have some more material on this, but I'll save
it for later.

Walt

[IBM]

(WalterM140) wrote in
:

> "But Thurlow's military records, portions of which were released
> yesterday to The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act,

Interesting. So if American Rifleman were to request
Trotskerry's military records under FOIA we'd soon be able
to know what the Poodle was actually up to all those years
ago.

IBM

__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
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[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Swift Boat Guys Caught in Some Great Big Lies
>From: (WalterM140)
>Date: 8/20/2004 3:57 AM Pacifi

>Elliott now feels differently, and says he has come to believe Kerry didn't
>deserve his second award for valor, either, based only on what the other
>anti-Kerry veterans have told him. He told the Globe Aug. 6:
>
>Elliott: I have chosen to believe the other men. I absolutely do not know
>first
>hand."
>
>http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=231
>
>
>Okay, next subject. I actually have some more material on this, but I'll save
>it for later.
>
>Walt
>

Only the neocons could take an award of honor and turn it into trash for
political reasons. And they never fired a shot. They are beneath contempt.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Swift Boat Guys Caught in Some Great Big Lies
>From: IBM
>Date: 8/20/2004 5:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id:

>Interesting. So if American Rifleman were to request
> Trotskerry's military records under FOIA we'd soon be able
> to know what the Poodle was actually up to all those years
> ago.

What about your military record? How many Purple Hearts and Silver Stars?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[OXMORON1]

Art asked:
>What about your military record? How many Purple Hearts and Silver Stars?
>

Art,
What about your military record? Disregarding wings and theater awards, what do
you have in the cedar chest or attic? What promotions did you get? Did you make
it beyond FO? What awards?
Not picking on you Art, just trying to figure out where you are coming from
with your questions.

Rick

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Swift Boat Guys Caught in Some Great Big Lies
>From: (OXMORON1)
>Date: 8/20/2004 7:00 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Art asked:
>>What about your military record? How many Purple Hearts and Silver Stars?
>>
>
>Art,
>What about your military record? Disregarding wings and theater awards, what
>do
>you have in the cedar chest or attic? What promotions did you get? Did you
>make
>it beyond FO? What awards?
>Not picking on you Art, just trying to figure out where you are coming from
>with your questions.
>
>Rick
>

I got 10 Air Medals. Battle stars on my ETO ribbon for D-Day, Po Valley,
Battle of Central Europe, etc. Also Battle of the Atlantic medal and Army of
Occupation medal.

Your turn.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Swift Boat Guys Caught in Some Great Big Lies
>From: (OXMORON1)
>Date: 8/20/2004 7:00 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Art asked:
>>What about your military record? How many Purple Hearts and Silver Stars?
>>
>
>Art,
>What about your military record? Disregarding wings and theater awards, what
>do
>you have in the cedar chest or attic? What promotions did you get? Did you
>make
>it beyond FO? What awards?
>Not picking on you Art, just trying to figure out where you are coming from
>with your questions.
>
>Rick
>


My military record is a day by day open book. Visit my website and see.
And yours?.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[OXMORON1]

Art wrote:
>I got 10 Air Medals. Battle stars on my ETO ribbon for D-Day, Po Valley,
>Battle of Central Europe, etc. Also Battle of the Atlantic medal and Army of
>Occupation medal.

Okay, if I read your list correctly, you were there for the Air Medals and the
Battle Stars, the other two are theater awards. No question that you served in
dangerous situations.
What was your promotion history? Were you ever commissioned or were you a
warrant officer throughout your career?
Did you hold any squadron secondary jobs other than your primary MOS as an
aircrew member? I mean prior to the occupation duty in Germany.
Just trying to dig through this to establish the basis for some of the crap
floating around.

My record, not much, Master Navigator, Flight Instructor, Combat Crew Member,
An Air Medal or two.
My masterpiece is a Good Conduct Medal from when I was an enlisted swine. I
got that one because I sucessfully evaded the AP's.

Rick

[[email protected]]

On 20 Aug 2004 14:49:53 GMT, (OXMORON1) proclaimed:

> My masterpiece is a Good Conduct Medal from when I was an enlisted swine. I
>got that one because I sucessfully evaded the AP's.

I had the reverse side of my Marine Good Conduct medal engraved:

"For Three Years of Undetected Crime."

[OXMORON1]

WBarham wrote:
>I had the reverse side of my Marine Good Conduct medal engraved:
>
>"For Three Years of Undetected Crime."

Ain't it the truth! :-)

[OXMORON1]

Art asked concerning my military record:
>And yours?.

I left out two hazarous duty efforts. I was certified as a food taster at the
Wake Island flight line cafeteria and Honorary City Official of MacTan City,
PI.

Rick

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"OXMORON1" > wrote in message
...
> Art wrote:
> >
> > I got 10 Air Medals. Battle stars on my ETO ribbon for D-Day,
> > Po Valley, Battle of Central Europe, etc. Also Battle of the Atlantic
> > medal and Army of Occupation medal.
> >
>
> Okay, if I read your list correctly, you were there for the Air Medals
> and the Battle Stars, the other two are theater awards.
>

Battle stars on an ETO ribbon sure sound like theater awards to me.

[OXMORON1]

Steve wrote:
>Battle stars on an ETO ribbon sure sound like theater awards to me.

Steve reread what I wrote:
>> Okay, if I read your list correctly, you were there for the Air Medals
>> and the Battle Stars, the other two are theater awards.
>>

I acknowledged the Battle Stars, They are definitely not theater awards.
Art has every right to be proud of those Battle Stars.
In fact Art has every right to be proud of his service and it is appreciated.
What Art does not have to right to do (without taking the heat) is to deny the
service of people who served in or out combat in every little crappy war that
Uncle Samuel has gotten into since 1945. I especially resent Art's lack of
respect for the people who maintained and serviced his aircraft and his
intolerance for anyone whose opinion differs from his.
I am also asking Art for his wartime command experience to justify his
expertise on the responsibility and pressures of command.

Rick

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"OXMORON1" > wrote in message
...
> Steve wrote:
> >Battle stars on an ETO ribbon sure sound like theater awards to me.
>
> Steve reread what I wrote:
> >> Okay, if I read your list correctly, you were there for the Air Medals
> >> and the Battle Stars, the other two are theater awards.
> >>

No need, I understood it the first time I read it.


>
> I acknowledged the Battle Stars, They are definitely not theater awards.
>

Why not? Why would any device on a theater ribbon not be considered a
theater award?

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Swift Boat Guys Caught in Some Great Big Lies
>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>Date: 8/20/2004 9:04 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: et>
>
>
>"OXMORON1" > wrote in message
...
>> Art wrote:
>> >
>> > I got 10 Air Medals. Battle stars on my ETO ribbon for D-Day,
>> > Po Valley, Battle of Central Europe, etc. Also Battle of the Atlantic
>> > medal and Army of Occupation medal.
>> >
>>
>> Okay, if I read your list correctly, you were there for the Air Medals
>> and the Battle Stars, the other two are theater awards.
>>
>
>Battle stars on an ETO ribbon sure sound like theater awards to me.


That is because you are stupid,you can go into Paris during the war the war and
ereryone there who had a desk job had an ETO ribbon, The difference were the
battle stars which showed that you had taken part in battles. Got it now ?
Guess you were never in a battle were you wannabbee?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Swift Boat Guys Caught in Some Great Big Lies
>From: (OXMORON1)
>Date: 8/20/2004 7:49 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Art wrote:
>>I got 10 Air Medals. Battle stars on my ETO ribbon for D-Day, Po Valley,
>>Battle of Central Europe, etc. Also Battle of the Atlantic medal and Army
>of
>>Occupation medal.
>
>Okay, if I read your list correctly, you were there for the Air Medals and
>the
>Battle Stars, the other two are theater awards. No question that you served
>in
>dangerous situations.
>What was your promotion history? Were you ever commissioned or were you a
>warrant officer throughout your career?
>Did you hold any squadron secondary jobs other than your primary MOS as an
>aircrew member? I mean prior to the occupation duty in Germany.
>Just trying to dig through this to establish the basis for some of the crap
>floating around.
>
>My record, not much, Master Navigator, Flight Instructor, Combat Crew Member,
>An Air Medal or two.
> My masterpiece is a Good Conduct Medal from when I was an enlisted swine. I
>got that one because I sucessfully evaded the AP's.
>
>Rick
>
>

How many missions did you have to fly to get an Air Medal?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Swift Boat Guys Caught in Some Great Big Lies
>From: (OXMORON1)
>Date: 8/20/2004 9:30 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Steve wrote:
>>Battle stars on an ETO ribbon sure sound like theater awards to me.
>
>Steve reread what I wrote:
>>> Okay, if I read your list correctly, you were there for the Air Medals
>>> and the Battle Stars, the other two are theater awards.
>>>
>
>I acknowledged the Battle Stars, They are definitely not theater awards.
>Art has every right to be proud of those Battle Stars.
>In fact Art has every right to be proud of his service and it is appreciated.
>What Art does not have to right to do (without taking the heat) is to deny
>the
>service of people who served in or out combat in every little crappy war that
>Uncle Samuel has gotten into since 1945. I especially resent Art's lack of
>respect for the people who maintained and serviced his aircraft and his
>intolerance for anyone whose opinion differs from his.
>I am also asking Art for his wartime command experience to justify his
>expertise on the responsibility and pressures of command.
>
>Rick
>


I was one bombardier in one plane in one squadron in one group in one wing in
one air force. Period. My command knowledge is zero as is yours.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Swift Boat Guys Caught in Some Great Big Lies
>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>Date: 8/20/2004 9:39 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: t>
>
>
>"OXMORON1" > wrote in message
...
>> Steve wrote:
>> >Battle stars on an ETO ribbon sure sound like theater awards to me.
>>
>> Steve reread what I wrote:
>> >> Okay, if I read your list correctly, you were there for the Air Medals
>> >> and the Battle Stars, the other two are theater awards.
>> >>
>
>No need, I understood it the first time I read it.
>
>
>>
>> I acknowledged the Battle Stars, They are definitely not theater awards.
>>
>
>Why not? Why would any device on a theater ribbon not be considered a
>theater award?


Is there no end to your military ignorance?



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[OXMORON1]

Steve asked:
>Why not? Why would any device on a theater ribbon not be considered a
>theater award?

Because a Battle Star is more than a "I was in the neighborhood ribbon". You
get stationed in the area and you get a theater ribbon, the Battle Stars
indicate participation in the action.

Rick

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> That is because you are stupid,
>

You believe logic is stupid?


>
> you can go into Paris during the war the war and ereryone there who had
> a desk job had an ETO ribbon, The difference were the battle stars which
> showed that you had taken part in battles. Got it now ?
>

Apparently not, devices on a theater ribbon still sound like theater awards
to me.


>
> Guess you were never in a battle were you wannabbee?
>

Why would I want to be in a battle?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> Is there no end to your military ignorance?
>

Like most that frequent this forum, I have far greater military knowledge
than you.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"OXMORON1" > wrote in message
...
>
> Because a Battle Star is more than a "I was in the neighborhood ribbon".
You
> get stationed in the area and you get a theater ribbon, the Battle Stars
> indicate participation in the action.
>

What was the criteria for the award of the battle star?

[OXMORON1]

Art asked:
>How many missions did you have to fly to get an Air Medal?

It varied with the a/c type and the location and the "powers that be". IIRC the
count was 20. But a couple of mine were in transports so they don't mean as
much. My brother,the helicopter pilot, has enough clusters to make his Air
Medal Ribbon look like it is infected with someting and they were a lot harder
for him to earn, therefore they mean much more to him..
It is all relative and anymore it can be political.
The award that I am happiest about NOT having is the Purple Heart. That means I
was lucky. Fate was on my side.

Rick

[ArtKramr]

>Art asked:
>>How many missions did you have to fly to get an Air Medal?
>

>t varied with the a/c type and the location and the "powers that be". IIRC
>the
>count was 20. But a couple of mine were in transports so they don't mean as

That's interesting. In WW II we got an air medal for evrry 5 missions. Later
wars were judged to be less hazardous with lower losses per mission so the
requirements were raised as high as 20 in later wars. I guess it means that 50
missions in WW II were the equivalent of 200 missions in later wars. So raw
numbers don't mean much do they?. So when someone brags about how many
missions they flew the best reply is: Really? Where and when?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Swift Boat Guys Caught in Some Great Big Lies
>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>Date: 8/20/2004 10:16 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: et>
>
>
>"OXMORON1" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Because a Battle Star is more than a "I was in the neighborhood ribbon".
>You
>> get stationed in the area and you get a theater ribbon, the Battle Stars
>> indicate participation in the action.
>>
>
>What was the criteria for the award of the battle star?


You had to fight in the ****ing battle asshole.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[OXMORON1]

Steve asked:

>What was the criteria for the award of the battle star?

You'll have to get that answer from one of the WWII guys. During that time I
was about two years old.
I think, repeat "think", don't know for sure that it was based on your
personnel records, unit assignment, military specialty and dates.
Military award regulations change all the time and I don't have access to the
regulations or history

Rick

[OXMORON1]

Art wrote in response to:
>>What was the criteria for the award of the battle star?
>
the following:
>You had to fight in the ****ing battle asshole.
>
Calm down Art! He asked a legitimate question and deserved a better answer.

Rick

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> You had to fight in the ****ing battle
>

Do you have any idea what constituted fighting in the ****ing battle?


>
> asshole.
>

Do you have any idea why you're unable to engage in civil discourse?

[OXMORON1]

Art wrote:

>That's interesting. In WW II we got an air medal for evrry 5 missions.
>Later
>wars were judged to be less hazardous with lower losses per mission so the
>requirements were raised as high as 20 in later wars. I guess it means that
>50
>missions in WW II were the equivalent of 200 missions in later wars. So raw
>numbers don't mean much do they?. So when someone brags about how many
>missions they flew the best reply is: Really? Where and when?
>
>
Irrelevant Art!
The enemy is still trying to kill you and you him. Define hazardous, current
weapons systems are more lethal that the 88 and maybe more numerous per square
mile in some locations. Detection systems are better, hence you are unlikely to
avoid being shot at day or night.
The key word in your comment is "brag", the quietest, most calm person I know
has killed more people than I have even thought about and I do not want to ****
him off. Real heroes are not apt to brag about their escapades.

Rick

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Swift Boat Guys Caught in Some Great Big Lies
>From: (OXMORON1)
>Date: 8/20/2004 10:59 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Art wrote:
>
>>That's interesting. In WW II we got an air medal for evrry 5 missions.
>>Later
>>wars were judged to be less hazardous with lower losses per mission so the
>>requirements were raised as high as 20 in later wars. I guess it means that
>>50
>>missions in WW II were the equivalent of 200 missions in later wars. So raw
>>numbers don't mean much do they?. So when someone brags about how many
>>missions they flew the best reply is: Really? Where and when?
>>
>>
>Irrelevant Art!
>The enemy is still trying to kill you and you him. Define hazardous, current
>weapons systems are more lethal that the 88 and maybe more numerous per
>square
>mile in some locations. Detection systems are better, hence you are unlikely
>to
>avoid being shot at day or night.
>The key word in your comment is "brag", the quietest, most calm person I know
>has killed more people than I have even thought about and I do not want to
>****
>him off. Real heroes are not apt to brag about their escapades.
>
>Rick
>


Not being a real hero I wouldn't know.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Swift Boat Guys Caught in Some Great Big Lies
>From: (OXMORON1)
>Date: 8/20/2004 10:45 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Art wrote in response to:
>>>What was the criteria for the award of the battle star?
>>
>the following:
>>You had to fight in the ****ing battle asshole.
>>
>Calm down Art! He asked a legitimate question and deserved a better answer.
>
>Rick
>

He asked a stupid question and got the answer he deserved.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[OXMORON1]

Art wrote:
>I was one bombardier in one plane in one squadron in one group in one wing in
>one air force. Period. My command knowledge is zero as is yours.
>

You forgot one thing in your list "one war".
You also have no command experience, so how are you qualified to comment on it?
I do not claim command experience and am not running for any political office.
I am responsible for making sound decisions around my home and at work. I come
to this newsgroup for information about military aviation, my hobby, not for
political ranting by unqualified individuals, not necessarily you.

Can you tell me the difference between "horse apples", "rabbit pellets", and
"cow patties"?

Rick

[Fred the Red Shirt]

(ArtKramr) wrote in message >...
> >Subject: Re: Swift Boat Guys Caught in Some Great Big Lies
> >From: (OXMORON1)
> >Date: 8/20/2004 7:00 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >Art asked:
> >>What about your military record? How many Purple Hearts and Silver Stars?
> >>
> >
> >Art,
> >What about your military record? Disregarding wings and theater awards, what
> >do
> >you have in the cedar chest or attic? What promotions did you get? Did you
> >make
> >it beyond FO? What awards?
> >Not picking on you Art, just trying to figure out where you are coming from
> >with your questions.
> >
> >Rick
> >
>
> I got 10 Air Medals. Battle stars on my ETO ribbon for D-Day, Po Valley,
> Battle of Central Europe, etc. Also Battle of the Atlantic medal and Army of
> Occupation medal.
>
> Your turn.
>

I'll set in here and take a turn.

I have nothing to brag about.

This Fall, we each get one vote.

Isn't Democracy great?

--

FF

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Swift Boat Guys Caught in Some Great Big Lies
>From: (OXMORON1)
>Date: 8/20/2004 10:38 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Steve asked:
>
>>What was the criteria for the award of the battle star?
>
>You'll have to get that answer from one of the WWII guys. During that time I
>was about two years old.
>I think, repeat "think", don't know for sure that it was based on your
>personnel records, unit assignment, military specialty and dates.
>Military award regulations change all the time and I don't have access to the
>regulations or history
>
>Rick
>

Let me see if I can simplify this complex question. There was a battle going on
in the Po Valley in Northern Italy.. I flew a mission to the Po valley so I
got a battle star indicating that I had been in that battle. There was a war
going on in central Europe. I flew missions over central europe, so I got a
battle star for the battle of central europe. Tell me if that is too complicted
and I will try to rephrase it in a simpler manner. Any questions?.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[OXMORON1]

FF wrote:
>This Fall, we each get one vote.
>
>Isn't Democracy great?

Greatest thing since sliced bread!
I think I will vote twice.

Rick

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Swift Boat Guys Caught in Some Great Big Lies
>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>Date: 8/20/2004 10:48 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: et>
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> You had to fight in the ****ing battle
>>
>
>Do you have any idea what constituted fighting in the ****ing battle?
>
>
>>
>> asshole.
>>
>
>Do you have any idea why you're unable to engage in civil discourse?


Yeah I was there and fought in that and many other battles. A hell of a lot
more than you ever did wannabee..


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
>
> I'll set in here and take a turn.
>
> I have nothing to brag about.
>
> This Fall, we each get one vote.
>
> Isn't Democracy great?
>

No.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Swift Boat Guys Caught in Some Great Big Lies
>From: (OXMORON1)
>Date: 8/20/2004 11:08 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Art wrote:
>>I was one bombardier in one plane in one squadron in one group in one wing
>in
>>one air force. Period. My command knowledge is zero as is yours.
>>
>
>You forgot one thing in your list "one war".
>You also have no command experience, so how are you qualified to comment on
>it?
>I do not claim command experience and am not running for any political
>office.
>I am responsible for making sound decisions around my home and at work. I
>come
>to this newsgroup for information about military aviation, my hobby, not for
>political ranting by unqualified individuals, not necessarily you.
>
>Can you tell me the difference between "horse apples", "rabbit pellets", and
>"cow patties"?
>
>Rick
>


What the hell are you babbling about?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> Yeah I was there and fought in that and many other battles. A hell of a
lot
> more than you ever did wannabee..
>

But many others were there and fought in many battles yet they are still
able to engage in civil discourse. What's different about you?

[Jack G]

So when someone brags about how many
> missions they flew the best reply is: Really? Where and when?
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer



Wrong again ART, The best reply is " THANKS".


Jack G.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Swift Boat Guys Caught in Some Great Big Lies
>From: "Jack G"
>Date: 8/20/2004 11:43 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
> So when someone brags about how many
>> missions they flew the best reply is: Really? Where and when?
>>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>> 344th BG 494th BS
>> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>
>
>
>Wrong again ART, The best reply is " THANKS".
>
>
>Jack G.
>

You forget stolen valor



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[OXMORON1]

Art wrote in response to:
>>Can you tell me the difference between "horse apples", "rabbit pellets", and
>>"cow patties"?
>>
The following:
>
>
>What the hell are you babbling about?
>
A simple question, do you know the difference?

Rick

[IBM]

(ArtKramr) wrote in news:20040820090400.06719.00003472@mb-
m13.aol.com:

>>Subject: Re: Swift Boat Guys Caught in Some Great Big Lies
>>From: IBM
>>Date: 8/20/2004 5:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id:
>
>>Interesting. So if American Rifleman were to request
>> Trotskerry's military records under FOIA we'd soon be able
>> to know what the Poodle was actually up to all those years
>> ago.
>
> What about your military record? How many Purple Hearts and Silver Stars?

None. And I've been injured rather more severely on duty
than you know who.
But then I'm not claiming any heroics or derring do
unlike Trotskerry and that farkin' Harkin.
Yessiree when Trotskerry's records see the light of day
he ain't gonna be happy.

IBM

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[George Shirley]

OXMORON1 wrote:
> FF wrote:
>
>>This Fall, we each get one vote.
>>
>>Isn't Democracy great?
>
>
> Greatest thing since sliced bread!
> I think I will vote twice.
>
> Rick

You live in New Orleans?

George

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> Let me see if I can simplify this complex question. There was a
> battle going on in the Po Valley in Northern Italy.. I flew a mission
> to the Po valley so I got a battle star indicating that I had been in that
> battle. There was a war going on in central Europe. I flew missions
> over central europe, so I got a battle star for the battle of central
europe.
> Tell me if that is too complicted and I will try to rephrase it in a
simpler
> manner. Any questions?.
>

Yes, I have one question. What was the criteria for the award of the battle
star?