Inaccurate Contest Scoring

On the second day of this year's 15 Meter Nationals, Karl Striedieck
chose the best direction for his flight and smoked the rest of the
field. He made 63.7 mph, 8 mph better than the second pilot and 14 mph
better than the third. Did he get 1000 points for this outstanding
performance? No, he received only 852 points. The reason was that some
other pilots chose less favorable directions for their flights and
landed out. That devalued the day and Karl's score. The more poorly
Karl's competitors did, the lower his score became. Karl should have
stood by the finish line and urged his competitors to come home so
that he could have received a better score!

In racing sports world wide, an individual's score is determined by
his performance alone. Soaring is the only racing sport that allows an
individual's score to be affected by the performances of his
competitors. It should not be this way. It can be changed.

It is possible to make a rational analysis of scoring systems rather
than just accepting "the way things have always been done." Any one
interesting in doing so could start with my posting on r.a.s.,
10/2/2003, "History of Contest Scoring."

Bill Feldbaumer 09

At 14:18 04 June 2004, Bill Feldbaumer wrote:
On the second day of this year's 15 Meter Nationals,
Karl Striedieck
chose the best direction for his flight and smoked
the rest of the
field. He made 63.7 mph, 8 mph better than the second
pilot and 14 mph
better than the third. Did he get 1000 points for this
outstanding
performance? No, he received only 852 points. The reason
was that some
other pilots chose less favorable directions for their
flights and
landed out. That devalued the day and Karl's score.
The more poorly
Karl's competitors did, the lower his score became.
Karl should have
stood by the finish line and urged his competitors
to come home so
that he could have received a better score!

In racing sports world wide, an individual's score
is determined by
his performance alone. Soaring is the only racing sport
that allows an
individual's score to be affected by the performances
of his
competitors. It should not be this way. It can be changed.

It is possible to make a rational analysis of scoring
systems rather
than just accepting 'the way things have always been
done.' Any one
interesting in doing so could start with my posting
on r.a.s.,
10/2/2003, 'History of Contest Scoring.'

Bill Feldbaumer 09


I do not fly contests. But I agree the proper measures
should be in place if you are going to hold a race.
The proper measure is not distance, but speed. Seems
clear the question is who can fly the fastest, not
who can fly the farthest.

GPS provides this solution for the pilot. With a simply
program written for a PDA, the current average speed
is easily shown in terms how fast is the pilot flying
AWAY from the last turnpoint.

No need to just count the miles flown. Just figure
out who is flying the fastest around the course.

How do you score this for a week-long contest? You
can not just add the speeds together each day (nor
distance for that matter). Each day should be counted
the same....just like in MotoGP motorcycle racing where
each race is counted the same, whether that race was
in the rain, sun, cold, or whatever. 15 points for
first place, 14 points for second...on down to 1 point
for 15th place. Everyone else gets no points, including
those who do not finish (DNF sailplanes that land out,
I say). End of the week, your best pilot will be the
pilot with the highest point total. The week was what
it was...you cant try to alter or devalue the points
to some nominal expectations of what the conditions
should be....if it rains all week, it rains, deal with
it...do not pretend we can devalue the points as if
the weather were better.

I do not fly contests. But I agree the proper measures
should be in place if you are going to hold a race.
The proper measure is not distance, but speed. Seems
clear the question is who can fly the fastest, not
who can fly the farthest.

GPS provides this solution for the pilot. With a simply
program written for a PDA, the current average speed
is easily shown in terms how fast is the pilot flying
AWAY from the last turnpoint.

No need to just count the miles flown. Just figure
out who is flying the fastest around the course.

How do you score this for a week-long contest? You
can not just add the speeds together each day (nor
distance for that matter). Each day should be counted
the same....just like in MotoGP motorcycle racing where
each race is counted the same, whether that race was
in the rain, sun, cold, or whatever. 15 points for
first place, 14 points for second...on down to 1 point
for 15th place. Everyone else gets no points, including
those who do not finish (DNF sailplanes that land out,
I say). End of the week, your best pilot will be the
pilot with the highest point total. The week was what
it was...you cant try to alter or devalue the points
to some nominal expectations of what the conditions
should be....if it rains all week, it rains, deal with
it...do not pretend we can devalue the points as if
the weather were better.

This is a reply for real?

If it is not a wind up then I think the first line
of post says it all really. I'm afraid your solution
shows a complete lack of the dynamics of soaring competitions
and of the sport in general. The current rules, while
not perfect, take into account the multitude of variables
associated with perhaps the most dynamic of all sports.


Motor-racing, has 'standard' conditions for all entrants,
ie same track, same weather, same mechanical constraints,
common start - with only the driver/rider performance
and the funding behind the development of the engine/chassis
to really providing the advantage. There is very little
to compare, apart from transatlantic sailing I guess,
(and that uses on 2D dynamics) with soaring competitions;
the dynamics are infinitely variable, and the current
scoring systems allows for that. Try explaining the
nil points for a land out to the pilots, on a day when
everybody lands out and yet the furthest flown competitor
lands within a few Kms of the finish after a 300km
flight task, and the novice competition pilot lands
25kms after the start line. Who has had the most meritorious
flight/ Who deserves the most points. How do you
score a week when every day everyone lands out?

Also the proper measure cannot be 'just speed' alone
but must be as it is, a delicate balance of the ability
of the pilot to balance his skill against the characteristics
of his own aircraft, with the current and projected
climatic conditions as well as other pilots. The only
way to achieve what you ask is for everyone to fly
the same sailplane, cross the start line at the same
time and to fly exactly the same route.

Ever tried to race a LS8 with a Junior? are they even
in the same league? ( VNE LS8 145Kts - VNE Junior
119Kts) well they can be, and the scoring system takes
account of this. It also allows club aircraft to compete
against privately owned aircraft, at many different
levels.

Try flying in a competition sometime, perhaps you will
understand it - you could then comment on it from
an informed position.

At 19:06 04 June 2004, Brian Penfold wrote:
I do not fly contests. But I agree the proper measures
should be in place if you are going to hold a race.
The proper measure is not distance, but speed. Seems
clear the question is who can fly the fastest, not
who can fly the farthest.

GPS provides this solution for the pilot. With a simply
program written for a PDA, the current average speed
is easily shown in terms how fast is the pilot flying
AWAY from the last turnpoint.

No need to just count the miles flown. Just figure
out who is flying the fastest around the course.

How do you score this for a week-long contest? You
can not just add the speeds together each day (nor
distance for that matter). Each day should be counted
the same....just like in MotoGP motorcycle racing where
each race is counted the same, whether that race was
in the rain, sun, cold, or whatever. 15 points for
first place, 14 points for second...on down to 1 point
for 15th place. Everyone else gets no points, including
those who do not finish (DNF sailplanes that land out,
I say). End of the week, your best pilot will be the
pilot with the highest point total. The week was what
it was...you cant try to alter or devalue the points
to some nominal expectations of what the conditions
should be....if it rains all week, it rains, deal with
it...do not pretend we can devalue the points as if
the weather were better.

This is a reply for real?

If it is not a wind up then I think the first line
of post says it all really. I'm afraid your solution
shows a complete lack of the dynamics of soaring competitions
and of the sport in general. The current rules, while
not perfect, take into account the multitude of variables
associated with perhaps the most dynamic of all sports.


Motor-racing, has 'standard' conditions for all entrants,
ie same track, same weather, same mechanical constraints,
common start - with only the driver/rider performance
and the funding behind the development of the engine/chassis
to really providing the advantage. There is very little
to compare, apart from transatlantic sailing I guess,
(and that uses on 2D dynamics) with soaring competitions;
the dynamics are infinitely variable, and the current
scoring systems allows for that. Try explaining the
nil points for a land out to the pilots, on a day when
everybody lands out and yet the furthest flown competitor
lands within a few Kms of the finish after a 300km
flight task, and the novice competition pilot lands
25kms after the start line. Who has had the most meritorious
flight/ Who deserves the most points. How do you
score a week when every day everyone lands out?

Also the proper measure cannot be 'just speed' alone
but must be as it is, a delicate balance of the ability
of the pilot to balance his skill against the characteristics
of his own aircraft, with the current and projected
climatic conditions as well as other pilots. The only
way to achieve what you ask is for everyone to fly
the same sailplane, cross the start line at the same
time and to fly exactly the same route.

Ever tried to race a LS8 with a Junior? are they even
in the same league? ( VNE LS8 145Kts - VNE Junior
119Kts) well they can be, and the scoring system takes
account of this. It also allows club aircraft to compete
against privately owned aircraft, at many different
levels.

Try flying in a competition sometime, perhaps you will
understand it - you could then comment on it from
an informed position.



Informed position?? Clearly, you are mis-informed.


Sure, the sky conditions can change despite everyone
going from turnpoint A to turnpoint B because people
get spreadout and late/slow pilots will can have different
conditions.

How does that differ from NASCAR or Indy racers? Those
out front have the clean air and no traffic slowing
them like those drivers back in the pack. Should we
build each car a seperate race track and then somehow
devalue the results if one of the racetracks have different
weather conditions??

And how does choosing or failing to choose a thermal
differ from auto racing? Just because a pilot land-outs
cause he was too busy about going forward instead of
climbing, we have to assume he is to be rewarded somehow???
Ask NASCAR fans if drivers should get championship
points because they run out of gas instead of pitting.
Thermals, like the gas can for the car, is what makes
the plane go. Can't believe you suggest awarding points
to pilots who do not understand this simple idea.

Sure, on really bad days, everyone lands out. Don't
hold a race on a day with bad weather, but mistakes
will happen, so what do we do? Nothing! That's just
racing. For autos, sometimes you have a flat tire,
blown engine, or get involved in a multi-car crash....just
part of racing, you are DNF and you get no points.
Same thing with sailplanes, it is okay to have bad
luck, it is part of racing.

Stop trying to normalize things to some standard 1000
point day. Judge people on the actual performance
they turn in, and penalize severly any unsafe activity.
Just because you spend time and money on your sailplane
does not mean you are entitiled to be competive and
earn points. Want points? Then go to the front consistently
just like the NASCAR boys do.

MMMMmmmm I'm sure others will have there view of Johns
response. Can't actually see in my post where I said
anything about 'normalizing things to some standard
1000
point day'. All I'm saying is that you cannot really
compare NASCAR racing with gliding. It's like comparing
apples and grapes.

Sure conditions will change, but the conditions can
be better or worse at any point on the task. You can't
compare that to clean air at the front of a car race,
come on. And as all competition pilots will know,
you can win a contest as the last glider that crosses
the start line - its not about being out in-front.
Good competition pilots require more of an analytical
or tactical approach to winning, not balls out speed.
If you don't understand this then perhaps you'd better
take up NASCAR racing.

At 20:06 04 June 2004, John Jones wrote:
At 19:06 04 June 2004, Brian Penfold wrote:
I do not fly contests. But I agree the proper measures
should be in place if you are going to hold a race.
The proper measure is not distance, but speed. Seems
clear the question is who can fly the fastest, not
who can fly the farthest.

GPS provides this solution for the pilot. With a simply
program written for a PDA, the current average speed
is easily shown in terms how fast is the pilot flying
AWAY from the last turnpoint.

No need to just count the miles flown. Just figure
out who is flying the fastest around the course.

How do you score this for a week-long contest? You
can not just add the speeds together each day (nor
distance for that matter). Each day should be counted
the same....just like in MotoGP motorcycle racing where
each race is counted the same, whether that race was
in the rain, sun, cold, or whatever. 15 points for
first place, 14 points for second...on down to 1 point
for 15th place. Everyone else gets no points, including
those who do not finish (DNF sailplanes that land out,
I say). End of the week, your best pilot will be the
pilot with the highest point total. The week was what
it was...you cant try to alter or devalue the points
to some nominal expectations of what the conditions
should be....if it rains all week, it rains, deal with
it...do not pretend we can devalue the points as if
the weather were better.

This is a reply for real?

If it is not a wind up then I think the first line
of post says it all really. I'm afraid your solution
shows a complete lack of the dynamics of soaring competitions
and of the sport in general. The current rules, while
not perfect, take into account the multitude of variables
associated with perhaps the most dynamic of all sports.


Motor-racing, has 'standard' conditions for all entrants,
ie same track, same weather, same mechanical constraints,
common start - with only the driver/rider performance
and the funding behind the development of the engine/chassis
to really providing the advantage. There is very little
to compare, apart from transatlantic sailing I guess,
(and that uses on 2D dynamics) with soaring competitions;
the dynamics are infinitely variable, and the current
scoring systems allows for that. Try explaining the
nil points for a land out to the pilots, on a day when
everybody lands out and yet the furthest flown competitor
lands within a few Kms of the finish after a 300km
flight task, and the novice competition pilot lands
25kms after the start line. Who has had the most meritorious
flight/ Who deserves the most points. How do you
score a week when every day everyone lands out?

Also the proper measure cannot be 'just speed' alone
but must be as it is, a delicate balance of the ability
of the pilot to balance his skill against the characteristics
of his own aircraft, with the current and projected
climatic conditions as well as other pilots. The only
way to achieve what you ask is for everyone to fly
the same sailplane, cross the start line at the same
time and to fly exactly the same route.

Ever tried to race a LS8 with a Junior? are they even
in the same league? ( VNE LS8 145Kts - VNE Junior
119Kts) well they can be, and the scoring system takes
account of this. It also allows club aircraft to compete
against privately owned aircraft, at many different
levels.

Try flying in a competition sometime, perhaps you will
understand it - you could then comment on it from
an informed position.



Informed position?? Clearly, you are mis-informed.


Sure, the sky conditions can change despite everyone
going from turnpoint A to turnpoint B because people
get spreadout and late/slow pilots will can have different
conditions.

How does that differ from NASCAR or Indy racers? Those
out front have the clean air and no traffic slowing
them like those drivers back in the pack. Should we
build each car a seperate race track and then somehow
devalue the results if one of the racetracks have different
weather conditions??

And how does choosing or failing to choose a thermal
differ from auto racing? Just because a pilot land-outs
cause he was too busy about going forward instead of
climbing, we have to assume he is to be rewarded somehow???
Ask NASCAR fans if drivers should get championship
points because they run out of gas instead of pitting.
Thermals, like the gas can for the car, is what makes
the plane go. Can't believe you suggest awarding points
to pilots who do not understand this simple idea.

Sure, on really bad days, everyone lands out. Don't
hold a race on a day with bad weather, but mistakes
will happen, so what do we do? Nothing! That's just
racing. For autos, sometimes you have a flat tire,
blown engine, or get involved in a multi-car crash....just
part of racing, you are DNF and you get no points.
Same thing with sailplanes, it is okay to have bad
luck, it is part of racing.

Stop trying to normalize things to some standard 1000
point day. Judge people on the actual performance
they turn in, and penalize severly any unsafe activity.
Just because you spend time and money on your sailplane
does not mean you are entitiled to be competive and
earn points. Want points? Then go to the front consistently
just like the NASCAR boys do.

I think the original point here was that if a pilot flys the task
set for the day and is the first finisher, his points should not rely
on the performances of other contestants.

Devaluing a day because the other contestants were unable or unwilling
to fly the task doesn't make the flight of the pilot who does
fly the task less worthy of points.

When the rules make it sensible to take a start and land back so the
day is devalued, reducing the points difference you risk in the contest,
rather than attempting the task, there's something wrong.

The current rules make that behaviour advisable if the class is
small, and the day marginal. A few start and land backs will
devalue the day dramatically. The land back pilots don't risk
a landout, and they don't risk their competitor getting 1000 points.

I've seen a task set and the entire field land back except one pilot.
He flew the whole task, with updates coming over the radio with his
ops normal calls like 'ops normal, 1500ft, scratchy', 'ops normal,
getting low'. This went on all afternoon. Then he lands and gets the
reward for the day, 0 points. All the other pilots landed back, so
not enough completed the minimum task scoring distance.

He flew the task set and deserved the full points.

--
Philip Plane _____
|
---------------( )---------------
Glider pilots have no visible means of support

While I tend to agree with you here Philip, the case
you state is very exceptional. I haven't sat and worked
through the figures, but you do need a really small
field, a very small task, and only one glider to fly
it. The rules on scoring contests have been iteratively
developed over a number years to meet the needs of
the sport. Just as in the same way that the scoring
rules for Formula One were changed recently to meet
the needs of the sport.

I do agree with Brian however, you really cannot compare
the sport of gliding with that of NASCAR or any other
sort of 'powered' race. That does show a lack of
understanding of soaring, especially in this forum.
Johns suggestion that you score no points if you land
out, is more likely to be far more controversial.
You really cannot compare the two sports or the scoring
system associated with either of them. Sure the current
rules do disadvantage the day winner under certain
circumstances, but I think it is all relative.

Ian
()
There's just no substitue for span!


At 21:06 04 June 2004, Philip Plane wrote:
I think the original point here was that if a pilot
flys the task
set for the day and is the first finisher, his points
should not rely
on the performances of other contestants.

Devaluing a day because the other contestants were
unable or unwilling
to fly the task doesn't make the flight of the pilot
who does
fly the task less worthy of points.

When the rules make it sensible to take a start and
land back so the
day is devalued, reducing the points difference you
risk in the contest,
rather than attempting the task, there's something
wrong.

The current rules make that behaviour advisable if
the class is
small, and the day marginal. A few start and land backs
will
devalue the day dramatically. The land back pilots
don't risk
a landout, and they don't risk their competitor getting
1000 points.

I've seen a task set and the entire field land back
except one pilot.
He flew the whole task, with updates coming over the
radio with his
ops normal calls like 'ops normal, 1500ft, scratchy',
'ops normal,
getting low'. This went on all afternoon. Then he lands
and gets the
reward for the day, 0 points. All the other pilots
landed back, so
not enough completed the minimum task scoring distance.

He flew the task set and deserved the full points.

--
Philip Plane _____
|
---------------( )---------------
Glider pilots have no visible means of support

In article , REMOVE_TO_REPLY.bandit111964
@yahoo.com says...

Informed position?? Clearly, you are mis-informed.

How many competitions have you flown in? I'm trying to get an idea of
why you are so dismissive of the present rules, which have been tweaked
for many years by competitors from regional through international
contests. The current rules were not drawn out of a bunch random rules
thrown into a hat, but are the ones that please most of the competitors
most of the time. They have evolved over the years, of course, as pilots
and technology have changed.
--
-------
Eric Greenwell USA

Philip wrote
When the rules make it sensible to take a start and land back so the
day is devalued, reducing the points difference you risk in the contest,
rather than attempting the task, there's something wrong.

Come on guys, has anyone actually read the rules? If one takes a start and then
lands back, he is not a contestant. One must get a scored distance to be a
contestant. This can be done by landing at any distance from home or by flying
at least half the minimum distance (30 s/m in a nationals) and then claiming a
*constructive landout*, before returning to the contest sight. Thus making 1
vote to make it a *no-contest-day*. At least 25% of the *contestants* (those
who have scored distance points) must fly the minimum distance (60 s/m) for the
day to be an official contest day.

If we were to adopt a *winner-take-all* system it would favor the taking of
unreasonable chances. Bad idea! Our rules are very good just as they are,
although I don't think we should have a book that is almost as large as the
rules themselves, just to explain what's in there.
:)
JJ Sinclair

Brian Penfold wrote:

MMMMmmmm I'm sure others will have there view of Johns
response.

I have a view: all your "Yeah, buts...." don't hold water, BP.

There is no way that degrading the value of one pilot's achievement because of
the bad luck or bad judgment of another pilot is a rational way to compete.
Sounds like more European Socialism to me.

Maybe if you knew a little more about NASCAR, you'd know a little more about
competition. I wouldn't compare NASCAR and Soaring, either. They are not
comparable to the extent that Soaring scoring is based on potential and NASCAR
scoring is based on achievement.



Jack