Actual Time in Sacramento

If this weather holds, it might be time for some of us newer IA pilots
to get some actual time in! I realize in most locations the visibility
is a little too low, but the season is definitely upon us...

Anybody at SAC planning on getting some actual in???

On 12/15/2005 10:13, three-eight-hotel wrote:

If this weather holds, it might be time for some of us newer IA pilots
to get some actual time in! I realize in most locations the visibility
is a little too low, but the season is definitely upon us...

Anybody at SAC planning on getting some actual in???


What I'm seeing around KSAC and KSMF is low-level fog. Once that burns-off,
the sky is clear. Have look at the METARs for KSMF and KAUN (Auburn):

Sacramento CA [KSMF] hourly observation on the 15th at 9:53am PST (1753Z)
wind calm, visibility 1/8 mile, runway 16R visual range 600 feet, fog,
indefinite ceiling 100 feet, temperature 3°C (37°F), dewpoint 3°C (37°F),
altimeter 30.11

Auburn CA [KAUN] automated hourly observation on the 15th at 10:10am PST (1810Z)
wind calm, visibility 10 miles, sky clear below 12,000 feet, temperature
10°C (50°F), dewpoint 4°C (39°F), altimeter 30.06

As you can see, once the fog goes, it's clear blue.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

Lots of it. I"m based in Cameron Park where the wx is clear. I shoot
approachs all morning into Mather and Exec when its low. Even though
they are reporting 1/4SM and 000VV I can usually get in about 70% of
the time (with about 15 minutes between attempts). The lesson here is
that if you shoot the approach and see nothing, just try it again. By
the time you get down to 100 AGL you can almost always see the runway.
If you pick up the rabbit at 200 you're pretty much good to go as long
as you have 1/2 vis. Usually you do. Tower's visibility is MUCH
different than your actual visibility.

Fog can be strange. I took off out of Exec last winter with 1/8SM
000VV. I could only see 1 center line strip down. However, after I took
off, I never lost sight of the runway, even at 1000 feet. It was very
easy to see down through the fog, just hard to see through it
horizontally.

-Robert

On 12/15/2005 10:51, Robert M. Gary wrote:

Lots of it. I"m based in Cameron Park where the wx is clear. I shoot
approachs all morning into Mather and Exec when its low. Even though
they are reporting 1/4SM and 000VV I can usually get in about 70% of
the time (with about 15 minutes between attempts). The lesson here is
that if you shoot the approach and see nothing, just try it again. By
the time you get down to 100 AGL you can almost always see the runway.

But at 100 AGL, aren't you below minimums? I know you can go to 100AGL
once you see the Red Bars, but neither of those airports have them (they
both have MALSR, right? - which doesn't have Red Bars).

If you pick up the rabbit at 200 you're pretty much good to go as long
as you have 1/2 vis. Usually you do. Tower's visibility is MUCH
different than your actual visibility.

Are you sure about that? According to my understanding, the rabbit is
not part of the runway environment, and is not enough to allow you to
proceed below minimums. You need to have one of the various runway
environment pieces called-out in the regs. What am I missing?

(Note: I'm flexing my 'I just passed the test' muscle without much
real IFR experience, so be gentle with me ;-) )

Of course, 0-0 doesn't stop you from shooting the approach by any
means - it just makes an engine failure a lot more serious ;-\

I really don't know how I feel about that, to be honest with you,
so I've avoided it.



Fog can be strange. I took off out of Exec last winter with 1/8SM
000VV. I could only see 1 center line strip down. However, after I took
off, I never lost sight of the runway, even at 1000 feet. It was very
easy to see down through the fog, just hard to see through it
horizontally.

-Robert



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

Mark Hansen wrote
Are you sure about that? According to my understanding, the rabbit is
not part of the runway environment, and is not enough to allow you to
proceed below minimums. You need to have one of the various runway
environment pieces called-out in the regs. What am I missing?

You're good to 100' above touchdown on the approach lights only, no need
to see the red bars.


(c) Operation below DH or MDA. Except as provided in paragraph (l) of this
section, where a DH or MDA is applicable, no pilot may operate an aircraft,
except a military aircraft of the United States, at any airport below the
authorized MDA or continue an approach below the authorized DH unless—
(i) The approach light system, except that the pilot may not descend below
100 feet above the touchdown zone elevation using the approach lights as a
reference unless the red terminating bars or the red side row bars are also
distinctly visible and identifiable.

Bob Moore
CFII

On 12/15/2005 11:48, Bob Moore wrote:

Mark Hansen wrote
Are you sure about that? According to my understanding, the rabbit is
not part of the runway environment, and is not enough to allow you to
proceed below minimums. You need to have one of the various runway
environment pieces called-out in the regs. What am I missing?

You're good to 100' above touchdown on the approach lights only, no need
to see the red bars.


(c) Operation below DH or MDA. Except as provided in paragraph (l) of this
section, where a DH or MDA is applicable, no pilot may operate an aircraft,
except a military aircraft of the United States, at any airport below the
authorized MDA or continue an approach below the authorized DH unless—
(i) The approach light system, except that the pilot may not descend below
100 feet above the touchdown zone elevation using the approach lights as a
reference unless the red terminating bars or the red side row bars are also
distinctly visible and identifiable.

Oh, rats. Thanks, Bob. I got that backwards during my training as well.
I don't know why I can't keep that straight. I guess I'm going to have
to write myself a big note and stick it on my mirror ;-\

Thanks for straightening me out!


Bob Moore
CFII



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

Mark,
To be honest with you I wouldn't do this in any of the FBO planes I
teach in. I wouldn't do it in most of the CAP planes either. However, I
know the level of maintenance my Mooney gets. When I'm flying my family
over the Sierras or over open water in Mexico, I have to have a good
confidence level with my plane. My Mooney gets regular oil analysis,
baroscoping, as well as a continuous electronic engine monitor. I also
have a fairly young FNEW (not rebuilt, not factory reman) engine.

-Robert

BTW: I'll mention its a kick when you see the approach lights under you
but nothing else. Its like a mystical light just floating in the fog.
The light does do a good job of cutting through the fog. Its
interesting that you can sometimes get into airports at night that you
cannot get into during the day. Its strange but its easier to see
lights in the dark through fog than the runway in the day in fog. I
think the sun actually makes the fog visibility worse (I guess that's
kinda like you turning your brights off when driving in fog). Its also
not unusual at night for the tower to report vis. less than 1/4 but you
can see the airport from 10 miles out. I've had this happen in
Sacramento and in Monterey. I'm not 100% sure why.

-Robert

On 12/15/2005 13:43, Robert M. Gary wrote:

Mark,
To be honest with you I wouldn't do this in any of the FBO planes I
teach in. I wouldn't do it in most of the CAP planes either. However, I
know the level of maintenance my Mooney gets. When I'm flying my family
over the Sierras or over open water in Mexico, I have to have a good
confidence level with my plane. My Mooney gets regular oil analysis,
baroscoping, as well as a continuous electronic engine monitor. I also
have a fairly young FNEW (not rebuilt, not factory reman) engine.

-Robert


That's what I was thinking may just change my mind (this is why I said
I was still on the fence about the whole issue). I don't want to say I
would never do it, but I don't think I would under current conditions
(using a rental plane, limited experience, etc.).



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

On 12/15/2005 13:49, Robert M. Gary wrote:

BTW: I'll mention its a kick when you see the approach lights under you
but nothing else. Its like a mystical light just floating in the fog.
The light does do a good job of cutting through the fog. Its
interesting that you can sometimes get into airports at night that you
cannot get into during the day.

It's this aspect that I'm really excited to see. With 99% of my training
done in simulated conditions, the CFII decides when (if) I get to suddenly
see the airport. As a result, I've never had the chance of seeing the
lights, but not the runway.

Of course I realize it will be harder to do in actual conditions, but
it sure would go a long way toward showing why were doing all that in
the first place ;-)

Its strange but its easier to see
lights in the dark through fog than the runway in the day in fog. I
think the sun actually makes the fog visibility worse (I guess that's
kinda like you turning your brights off when driving in fog). Its also
not unusual at night for the tower to report vis. less than 1/4 but you
can see the airport from 10 miles out. I've had this happen in
Sacramento and in Monterey. I'm not 100% sure why.

Interesting.


-Robert




--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA