Newbie holding questions

I am getting ready to start IFR training next week, and there are a
couple of questions regarding holding that I have been pondering.
(Searched through here already, but couldn't find the answers...at
least spelled out for me

When being assigned a hold, will ATC usually assign an altitude as
well? None of the samples I've seen in the FAA text or the AIM mention
an altitude in a clearance, and it made me wonder what happens when a
large volume of aircraft are holding at a busy airport waiting to land.
Do they "stack 'em and rack 'em" (like it looked the two times I've
flown into LHR), or do they have them hold all over the place (which I
observed on the BOS Airport Monitor a few weeks ago when that snowstorm
rolled through.)

Secondly, what happens there is a holding pattern used to enter an
approach to landing, and there are multiple aircraft landing? For
example, if there were several planes flying into Charlottesville (CHO)
from the east (GVE VOR, 17 nm), wouldn't everyone be entering the
holding pattern at 3300', thus creating a collision hazard? Or would
ATC only clear one aircraft at a time for the approach? Which doesn't
seem to do much for volume, but normally isn't an issue at a place like
CHO unless there is a football game....

Thanks in advance.

JohnK
PP-ASEL, IA student

JohnK wrote:

When being assigned a hold, will ATC usually assign an altitude as
well?

In the Northeast US, I always hear altitude included in the holding
instruction.


Secondly, what happens there is a holding pattern used to enter an
approach to landing, and there are multiple aircraft landing?

At airports without radar coverage for the approach, only one aircraft will
be cleared for the published approach at a time. Other aircraft inbound
will be placed in a hold well outside of the approach until the aircraft on
approach cancels IFR, either in the air or on the ground.

At airports that have radar coverage on the approach (controlled or
uncontrolled) aircraft are simply vectored to the final approach course and
any published course reversals are bypassed.


--
Peter

JohnK wrote:
When being assigned a hold, will ATC usually assign an altitude as
well?

If you're IFR, you *always* have an altitude assignment. Sometimes
it's a single altitude (maintain 3000), sometimes it's a limit (at or
above 4000). If a new altitude is not explicitly issued along with
the holding instructions, you last assigned altitude still applies.


what happens when a large volume of aircraft are holding at a busy
airport waiting to land.

A lot of fuel gets wasted :-)

Do they "stack 'em and rack 'em" (like it looked the two times I've
flown into LHR), or do they have them hold all over the place (which I
observed on the BOS Airport Monitor a few weeks ago when that snowstorm
rolled through.)

In theory, they could have multiple aircraft holding at the same fix
at different altitudes. The one on the bottom is cleared to land, the
ones above get cleared down to lower altitudes, and new arrivals get
thrown onto the top of the stack. In practice, that never happens any
more. Flow control procedures at busy airports are supposed to ensure
that flights don't get cleared for takeoff until a slot is available
for them at their destination. Still, **** happens and sometimes you
end up with more flights arriving at once than can land, so you gotta
do something with them. Delaying vectors are more common than holding
stacks.

Secondly, what happens there is a holding pattern used to enter an
approach to landing, and there are multiple aircraft landing?

Virtually all real IFR traffic these days is given vectors to final.
None of this holding at the IAF **** unless you're in training, or out
in the boonies somewhere and there's no radar coverage.

Roy Smith wrote:

Delaying vectors are more common than holding
stacks.

Which strategy ATC chooses to use to slow approaching aircraft is probably
related to location, rather than the type.

For aircraft approaching NY or Boston airports, I have found that holds are
more common than delaying vectors when the weather really falls apart.

--
Peter

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
JohnK wrote:

When being assigned a hold, will ATC usually assign an altitude as
well?

In the Northeast US, I always hear altitude included in the holding
instruction.


Secondly, what happens there is a holding pattern used to enter an
approach to landing, and there are multiple aircraft landing?

At airports without radar coverage for the approach, only one aircraft
will
be cleared for the published approach at a time. Other aircraft inbound
will be placed in a hold well outside of the approach until the aircraft
on
approach cancels IFR, either in the air or on the ground.

At airports that have radar coverage on the approach (controlled or
uncontrolled) aircraft are simply vectored to the final approach course
and
any published course reversals are bypassed.


--
Peter

Makes sense, thanks Peter!

John K

Peter R. wrote:



At airports without radar coverage for the approach, only one aircraft will
be cleared for the published approach at a time. Other aircraft inbound
will be placed in a hold well outside of the approach until the aircraft on
approach cancels IFR, either in the air or on the ground.
At some locations timed approaches permit more than one approach at a
time, provided the holding pattern meets criteria and the missed
approach does not conflict with the inbound tracks.

Timed approaches were once used a lot, then over time diminished in
their use, and now they are on the increase again.

wrote:

At some locations timed approaches permit more than one approach at a
time, provided the holding pattern meets criteria and the missed
approach does not conflict with the inbound tracks.

Timed approaches were once used a lot, then over time diminished in
their use, and now they are on the increase again.

Thanks, Tim.

What are some example of airports where timed approaches are in use?

--
Peter

Is there any airport that uses timed approaches? I though this was FAA
legacy stuff. Could be useful during high traffic fly-ins if there is
no radar though I guess.

"JohnK" wrote in message
oups.com...

I am getting ready to start IFR training next week, and there are a
couple of questions regarding holding that I have been pondering.
(Searched through here already, but couldn't find the answers...at
least spelled out for me

When being assigned a hold, will ATC usually assign an altitude as
well?


No, an altitude is not specifically part of a holding instruction. There'd
be no need to issue an altitude if you're to hold at the currently assigned
altitude.



None of the samples I've seen in the FAA text or the AIM mention
an altitude in a clearance, and it made me wonder what happens when a
large volume of aircraft are holding at a busy airport waiting to land.
Do they "stack 'em and rack 'em" (like it looked the two times I've
flown into LHR), or do they have them hold all over the place (which I
observed on the BOS Airport Monitor a few weeks ago when that snowstorm
rolled through.)


They may do both and also employ other floe control measures.



Secondly, what happens there is a holding pattern used to enter an
approach to landing, and there are multiple aircraft landing? For
example, if there were several planes flying into Charlottesville (CHO)
from the east (GVE VOR, 17 nm), wouldn't everyone be entering the
holding pattern at 3300', thus creating a collision hazard? Or would
ATC only clear one aircraft at a time for the approach? Which doesn't
seem to do much for volume, but normally isn't an issue at a place like
CHO unless there is a football game....


At CHO they will be radar sequenced for the approach, football game or not.

An EFC should always be part of a hold clearance, if they
forget, ask.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
message
ink.net...
|
| "JohnK" wrote in message
|
oups.com...
|
| I am getting ready to start IFR training next week, and
there are a
| couple of questions regarding holding that I have been
pondering.
| (Searched through here already, but couldn't find the
answers...at
| least spelled out for me
|
| When being assigned a hold, will ATC usually assign an
altitude as
| well?
|
|
| No, an altitude is not specifically part of a holding
instruction. There'd
| be no need to issue an altitude if you're to hold at the
currently assigned
| altitude.
|
|
|
| None of the samples I've seen in the FAA text or the AIM
mention
| an altitude in a clearance, and it made me wonder what
happens when a
| large volume of aircraft are holding at a busy airport
waiting to land.
| Do they "stack 'em and rack 'em" (like it looked the two
times I've
| flown into LHR), or do they have them hold all over the
place (which I
| observed on the BOS Airport Monitor a few weeks ago when
that snowstorm
| rolled through.)
|
|
| They may do both and also employ other floe control
measures.
|
|
|
| Secondly, what happens there is a holding pattern used
to enter an
| approach to landing, and there are multiple aircraft
landing? For
| example, if there were several planes flying into
Charlottesville (CHO)
| from the east (GVE VOR, 17 nm), wouldn't everyone be
entering the
| holding pattern at 3300', thus creating a collision
hazard? Or would
| ATC only clear one aircraft at a time for the approach?
Which doesn't
| seem to do much for volume, but normally isn't an issue
at a place like
| CHO unless there is a football game....
|
|
| At CHO they will be radar sequenced for the approach,
football game or not.
|
|