Vectored past the localizer

Several times, while under IFR flight plan and radar services, I have
been vectored to intercept the localizer and the controller was late
in turning me into the localizer. This usually happens when I need
about a 90 degree turn to the localizer. I have decided not to wait
for his vector and just turn. This has always been when the freq is
busy. There is a very small time window to turn (about 15 seconds), so
if the freq is busy, I can't request a turn before I am past, so now,
if this happens, I just turn. I told a CFII this and he said, ok, but
its not really the legal thing to do. I believe it is the safe thing
to do, and therefore legal. Any opinions from the group?

Bad idea. Probably 90% of the time it is O.K., but the other 10% is reason
not to.

I have had many times when controllers have purposefully vectored me through
the localizer and then back on from the other side due to spacing on
traffic. You mentioned that this was happening when the freq was busy.
This is probably also the time when spacing on other traffic could be a
factor.

John Bell
www.cockpitgps.com


"Doug" wrote in message
om...
Several times, while under IFR flight plan and radar services, I have
been vectored to intercept the localizer and the controller was late
in turning me into the localizer. This usually happens when I need
about a 90 degree turn to the localizer. I have decided not to wait
for his vector and just turn. This has always been when the freq is
busy. There is a very small time window to turn (about 15 seconds), so
if the freq is busy, I can't request a turn before I am past, so now,
if this happens, I just turn. I told a CFII this and he said, ok, but
its not really the legal thing to do. I believe it is the safe thing
to do, and therefore legal. Any opinions from the group?

"Doug" wrote in message
om...

Several times, while under IFR flight plan and radar services, I have
been vectored to intercept the localizer and the controller was late
in turning me into the localizer. This usually happens when I need
about a 90 degree turn to the localizer. I have decided not to wait
for his vector and just turn. This has always been when the freq is
busy. There is a very small time window to turn (about 15 seconds), so
if the freq is busy, I can't request a turn before I am past, so now,
if this happens, I just turn. I told a CFII this and he said, ok, but
its not really the legal thing to do. I believe it is the safe thing
to do, and therefore legal. Any opinions from the group?


While it may or may not be safe, there's no question that it's not legal.
Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC
instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised. The
controller may be bringing you through the localizer for spacing. He's
supposed to tell you if he's doing that, but the freq's just as busy for him
as it is for you. You may need to prompt him about joining the localizer,
but, of course, the freq's just as busy for you as it is for him.

Not safe or legal. The FAA feels so strongly about this you will get
this question on your IFR exam.

Doug wrote:
Several times, while under IFR flight plan and radar services, I have
been vectored to intercept the localizer and the controller was late
in turning me into the localizer. This usually happens when I need
about a 90 degree turn to the localizer. I have decided not to wait
for his vector and just turn. This has always been when the freq is
busy. There is a very small time window to turn (about 15 seconds), so
if the freq is busy, I can't request a turn before I am past, so now,
if this happens, I just turn. I told a CFII this and he said, ok, but
its not really the legal thing to do. I believe it is the safe thing
to do, and therefore legal. Any opinions from the group?

Doug wrote:
Several times, while under IFR flight plan and radar services, I have
been vectored to intercept the localizer and the controller was late
in turning me into the localizer. This usually happens when I need
about a 90 degree turn to the localizer. I have decided not to wait
for his vector and just turn. This has always been when the freq is
busy. There is a very small time window to turn (about 15 seconds), so
if the freq is busy, I can't request a turn before I am past, so now,
if this happens, I just turn. I told a CFII this and he said, ok, but
its not really the legal thing to do. I believe it is the safe thing
to do, and therefore legal. Any opinions from the group?

If you've been cleared for the approach, or given an instruction to
"intercept the localizer", then it's OK. If your last vector was
simply a heading to fly, then you should just keep on that heading,
even if it takes you through the localizer.

How is guessing what the controller wanted and then busting your
clearance based on that guess "the safe thing to do"?

bad idea, personally if I am anticipating a turn and have not received it
yet, I will slow down a bit, sometimes they will fly you through the LOC
then turn you back onto it for spacing. that has happened to me. I dont
intercept the loc untill told to. if they give me a heading I fly it
untill told otherwise. you can tell them xxx approaching loc request turn
on to loc?


Doug wrote:

Several times, while under IFR flight plan and radar services, I have
been vectored to intercept the localizer and the controller was late
in turning me into the localizer. This usually happens when I need
about a 90 degree turn to the localizer. I have decided not to wait
for his vector and just turn. This has always been when the freq is
busy. There is a very small time window to turn (about 15 seconds), so
if the freq is busy, I can't request a turn before I am past, so now,
if this happens, I just turn. I told a CFII this and he said, ok, but
its not really the legal thing to do. I believe it is the safe thing
to do, and therefore legal. Any opinions from the group?

There's been at least one case where a controller vectored someone
through the localizer because he'd forgotten him, and they flew into
a mountain. It's best to avoid that. OTOH the other posters correctly
say that just turning onto the localizer without an instruction is
wrong too. The controller should already have warned you if
he is going to fly you through the loc though. I've been flown through
the loc several times, once was for spacing and I was warned, the rest
were all being forgotten (maybe 3-4 times).

My take is this. You need to know the terrain around you. If you're
clear of terrain, just fly the heading, and ask as soon as possible what's
going on... "21Z has flown through the localizer". They'll soon wake
up when they hear that. But if there's the slightest risk of CFIT
then 91.3 applies. If you're headed for the hills (e.g. at San Jose)
and you can't get a word in within 30 secs or so (at spamcan speeds)
then vector yourself away from terrain. They've got you on radar.
But 30 secs is a looooong time, even Norcal 135.4 (Oakland approach)
is rarely solid busy for that long.

Norcal has once vectored me into the hills that were straight ahead of me
for "traffic avoidance". Well, sure, there wasn't any other traffic there.
The U word ("unable") has its place too.

John

"Doug" wrote in message
om...
Several times, while under IFR flight plan and radar services, I have
been vectored to intercept the localizer and the controller was late
in turning me into the localizer. This usually happens when I need
about a 90 degree turn to the localizer. I have decided not to wait
for his vector and just turn. This has always been when the freq is
busy. There is a very small time window to turn (about 15 seconds), so
if the freq is busy, I can't request a turn before I am past, so now,
if this happens, I just turn. I told a CFII this and he said, ok, but
its not really the legal thing to do. I believe it is the safe thing
to do, and therefore legal. Any opinions from the group?

Doug wrote:
Several times, while under IFR flight plan and radar services, I have
been vectored to intercept the localizer and the controller was late
in turning me into the localizer. This usually happens when I need
about a 90 degree turn to the localizer. I have decided not to wait
for his vector and just turn. This has always been when the freq is
busy. There is a very small time window to turn (about 15 seconds), so
if the freq is busy, I can't request a turn before I am past, so now,
if this happens, I just turn. I told a CFII this and he said, ok, but
its not really the legal thing to do. I believe it is the safe thing
to do, and therefore legal. Any opinions from the group?

It isn't legal to ignore an ATC instruction and it may well not be safe.


Matt

"John Harper" wrote
There's been at least one case where a controller vectored someone
through the localizer because he'd forgotten him, and they flew into
a mountain. It's best to avoid that. OTOH the other posters correctly
say that just turning onto the localizer without an instruction is
wrong too. The controller should already have warned you if
he is going to fly you through the loc though. I've been flown through
the loc several times, once was for spacing and I was warned, the rest
were all being forgotten (maybe 3-4 times).

My take is this. You need to know the terrain around you. If you're
clear of terrain, just fly the heading, and ask as soon as possible what's
going on... "21Z has flown through the localizer". They'll soon wake
up when they hear that. But if there's the slightest risk of CFIT
then 91.3 applies. If you're headed for the hills (e.g. at San Jose)
and you can't get a word in within 30 secs or so (at spamcan speeds)
then vector yourself away from terrain. They've got you on radar.
But 30 secs is a looooong time, even Norcal 135.4 (Oakland approach)
is rarely solid busy for that long.

Norcal has once vectored me into the hills that were straight ahead of me
for "traffic avoidance". Well, sure, there wasn't any other traffic there.
The U word ("unable") has its place too.

I think this is about the best answer I've seen so far. I would only
add that a vector TOWARDS terrain is not the same thing as a vector
INTO terrain. At low alitudes, almost any vector takes you towards
terrain - eventually.

IMO the thing to do is decide in advance how close you're willing to
get to hard stuff, and not get any closer. A corollary to this (as
stated above) is that you must know where you are. Legally, you are
being vectored and the controller is responsible for terrain
avoidance, but that won't mean much to your pax.

The only other point I would make is this - you need not be in the
mountains for this to be an issue. For example, on the West side of
Houston, most of us go to SGR to shoot ILS approaches. For those
playing along on the home game,
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...l/SGR_ir35.pdf

Typically, you get vectors to final at 2000 MSL, and are vectored on
the West side of the localizer. I would give the controller about 2
minutes max after crossing the loc before I took action on my own.
The towers are about 8 miles past the loc on a typical vector, and
some of them stick up above 2000.

On the flip side, SGR is a major reliever, and when the weather is
scuzzy the traffic on the ILS ranges from spam cans to bizjets.
Vectors for spacing are often necessary, and typically the same
controller is working SGR and the airliners going into HOU, so the
frequency gets busy. Deciding to turn in on the loc without being
cleared for the approach is bad juju.

Michael

In article , John Bell wrote:

Bad idea. Probably 90% of the time it is O.K., but the other 10% is reason
not to.

However, I read somewhere that the controller must specifically mention
if they intend to vector you across the localizer. I conclude this is either
incorrect or widely ignored, because the times I've been vectored through
the localizer, no one said anything. I haven't noticed a lot of radio traffic,
either, but they might be talking on another frequency....

Can one of our ATC folks comment on my ill-remembered "fact?"

Mike Beede