Jeppesen Garmin Nav Updates

Jas wrote:
Does anyone every post these in here? Ridiculous price to update your
garmin 396. Just wondering if anyone ever has.

Thx

Jas

If you feel the price is ridiculous then apparently the data has limited
or no value to you.

A lot of effort goes into compiling the data; waypoints, nav aids,
frequencies, airport data, special use airspace boundaries and
altitudes, etc, etc.

And, the companies, Jeppesen and Garmin, aren't in business for the fun
of it.

Sam Spade wrote:

A lot of effort goes into compiling the data; waypoints, nav aids,
frequencies, airport data, special use airspace boundaries and
altitudes, etc, etc.

Most of which is done on the tax payers dime.

Yes, Jeppesen does add value. For example, they compile it into different
formats for vendors as well as a lot of cross checking and data validation.
However, the real hefty lifting is done by government agencies. As the
end consumer essentially ends up paying for the base information twice (once
to Jeppesen and once through their taxes), I'll side with the OP and say
that Jeppesen is indeed overpriced.

And, the companies, Jeppesen and Garmin, aren't in business for the fun
of it.

Yup, and they are welcome to charge as much as they can get for it. And they
can charge a lot for it because they are the only game in town. However,
if there was any other source for this information, you can bet I for one
would be encouraging the competition.

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Boise, ID

Frank Stutzman wrote:
Sam Spade wrote:


A lot of effort goes into compiling the data; waypoints, nav aids,
frequencies, airport data, special use airspace boundaries and
altitudes, etc, etc.


Most of which is done on the tax payers dime.

Yes, Jeppesen does add value. For example, they compile it into different
formats for vendors as well as a lot of cross checking and data validation.
However, the real hefty lifting is done by government agencies. As the
end consumer essentially ends up paying for the base information twice (once
to Jeppesen and once through their taxes), I'll side with the OP and say
that Jeppesen is indeed overpriced.


And, the companies, Jeppesen and Garmin, aren't in business for the fun
of it.


Yup, and they are welcome to charge as much as they can get for it. And they
can charge a lot for it because they are the only game in town. However,
if there was any other source for this information, you can bet I for one
would be encouraging the competition.


The taxpayers pay for instrument approach procedures and
route/development maintenance.

The nav database is of little use to anyone until Jeppesen does a lot of
work on it.

Special use airspace boundaries are painstakenly reconstructed by
Jeppesen from the arcane rule-making source. NACO has to do the same to
make Sectionals and TACs, and those aren't exactly free, either.

The compliation of airport, nav-aid and comm frequencies from many
sources isn't easy, either.

The taxpayer is being had by the fact NACO gives away its approach
charts. Those are distinct and separate from the development of the
IAP. No other country in the world gives away their approach charts.

On 2009-10-12 10:52:08 -0800, Sam Spade said:

Frank Stutzman wrote:
Sam Spade wrote:


A lot of effort goes into compiling the data; waypoints, nav aids,
frequencies, airport data, special use airspace boundaries and
altitudes, etc, etc.


Most of which is done on the tax payers dime.
Yes, Jeppesen does add value. For example, they compile it into
different formats for vendors as well as a lot of cross checking and
data validation.
However, the real hefty lifting is done by government agencies. As the
end consumer essentially ends up paying for the base information twice
(once
to Jeppesen and once through their taxes), I'll side with the OP and say
that Jeppesen is indeed overpriced.


And, the companies, Jeppesen and Garmin, aren't in business for the fun of it.


Yup, and they are welcome to charge as much as they can get for it. And they
can charge a lot for it because they are the only game in town. However,
if there was any other source for this information, you can bet I for one
would be encouraging the competition.

The taxpayers pay for instrument approach procedures and
route/development maintenance.

The nav database is of little use to anyone until Jeppesen does a lot
of work on it.

Special use airspace boundaries are painstakenly reconstructed by
Jeppesen from the arcane rule-making source. NACO has to do the same
to make Sectionals and TACs, and those aren't exactly free, either.

The compliation of airport, nav-aid and comm frequencies from many
sources isn't easy, either.

The taxpayer is being had by the fact NACO gives away its approach
charts. Those are distinct and separate from the development of the
IAP. No other country in the world gives away their approach charts.

I didn't know I would hit a nerve with you on this Sam. For aspiring
pilots with little or no money when taking lessons, its a pretty hefty
price tag to stay updated.

Jas wrote:
On 2009-10-12 10:52:08 -0800, Sam Spade said:

Frank Stutzman wrote:

Sam Spade wrote:


A lot of effort goes into compiling the data; waypoints, nav aids,
frequencies, airport data, special use airspace boundaries and
altitudes, etc, etc.



Most of which is done on the tax payers dime.
Yes, Jeppesen does add value. For example, they compile it into
different formats for vendors as well as a lot of cross checking and
data validation.
However, the real hefty lifting is done by government agencies. As
the end consumer essentially ends up paying for the base information
twice (once
to Jeppesen and once through their taxes), I'll side with the OP and say
that Jeppesen is indeed overpriced.


And, the companies, Jeppesen and Garmin, aren't in business for the
fun of it.



Yup, and they are welcome to charge as much as they can get for it.
And they
can charge a lot for it because they are the only game in town.
However,
if there was any other source for this information, you can bet I for
one
would be encouraging the competition.


The taxpayers pay for instrument approach procedures and
route/development maintenance.

The nav database is of little use to anyone until Jeppesen does a lot
of work on it.

Special use airspace boundaries are painstakenly reconstructed by
Jeppesen from the arcane rule-making source. NACO has to do the same
to make Sectionals and TACs, and those aren't exactly free, either.

The compliation of airport, nav-aid and comm frequencies from many
sources isn't easy, either.

The taxpayer is being had by the fact NACO gives away its approach
charts. Those are distinct and separate from the development of the
IAP. No other country in the world gives away their approach charts.


I didn't know I would hit a nerve with you on this Sam. For aspiring
pilots with little or no money when taking lessons, its a pretty hefty
price tag to stay updated.

If you see it as hitting a nerve, so be it. From my perspective I see
far too many light airplane pilots bitch because they have to pay for
RNAV data.

And, for pilots with little or no money taking lessons, I think they
have picked the wrong endeavor.

On Oct 13, 3:12*am, Sam Spade wrote:

If you see it as hitting a nerve, so be it. *From my perspective I see
far too many light airplane pilots bitch because they have to pay for
RNAV data.

While I honestly don't mind paying a subscription price for RNAV data,
I'd say the price for what I get is way out of line as compared to the
paper product. Since my flying is local, and I carry paper charts and
plates as backup, I can't afford the rediculous yearly fee.

I just got around to updating my 430 card (3 years old) as I was to
take a XC from MS to OH to an airport that only had a GPS approach (no
ground based approach). I never made that trip and spent over $300 on
ONE approach not to be used. If this airport would have had a ground
based instrument approach, I still would have my 3 year old card in
the unit.

I would think the data once established is harvested electronically
for updates. Price for subscription with the advent of computers
should be coming down, not going up.

I'd have to agree with Jas. Maybe you have the means and money, but I
am a low end airplane owner. I can't justify putting 15K into somebody
else's pocket for rental fees, yet I don't have quite the full means
to maintain a plane on my own so something has to give. Partnership
is not an option I want to consider (and shouldn't have to).

The price for subscription does not promote safety. Reasonable to me
would be no more then $50 per year.

BeechSundowner wrote:
On Oct 13, 3:12 am, Sam Spade wrote:


If you see it as hitting a nerve, so be it. From my perspective I see
far too many light airplane pilots bitch because they have to pay for
RNAV data.


While I honestly don't mind paying a subscription price for RNAV data,
I'd say the price for what I get is way out of line as compared to the
paper product. Since my flying is local, and I carry paper charts and
plates as backup, I can't afford the rediculous yearly fee.

I just got around to updating my 430 card (3 years old) as I was to
take a XC from MS to OH to an airport that only had a GPS approach (no
ground based approach). I never made that trip and spent over $300 on
ONE approach not to be used. If this airport would have had a ground
based instrument approach, I still would have my 3 year old card in
the unit.

I would think the data once established is harvested electronically
for updates. Price for subscription with the advent of computers
should be coming down, not going up.

I'd have to agree with Jas. Maybe you have the means and money, but I
am a low end airplane owner. I can't justify putting 15K into somebody
else's pocket for rental fees, yet I don't have quite the full means
to maintain a plane on my own so something has to give. Partnership
is not an option I want to consider (and shouldn't have to).

The price for subscription does not promote safety. Reasonable to me
would be no more then $50 per year.

I can't imagine how someone could afford to buy and install a Garmin 430
but not be able to maintain a current database.

That is really a different, but related issue, to updating a handheld.

On Oct 13, 10:04*am, Sam Spade wrote:

I can't imagine how someone could afford to buy and install a Garmin 430
but not be able to maintain a current database.

That is really a different, but related issue, to updating a handheld.-

You just met that person. My wallet is not unlimited so I run a
shoestring budget when it comes to the luxuries of updating a data
card. As I am sure you know, maintenance on a plane doesn't come
cheap especially for Beech products (my choice I understand).

Since I don't maintain an updated data card, the 430 is no better then
a hand held as it's legally only good for situational awareness so in
the full scheme it's not different.

I fly approaches at minimum once a month or about 15 times a year.
This comes out to about $20 per "flight day" when I do approaches if I
was to keep an updated card. At least with paper plates, I can check
online to see if I have the latest version and not have to reprint.
Can't do that with the card....

Compared to paper, the electronic process, we are getting gouged big
time. I understand in the beginning cost of establishing
infrastructure, we should pay higher, but now, the infrastructure is
in place and that cost of maintenance is the only thing in place, so
the price should be going southbound. We just are not seeing this.

BeechSundowner wrote:
On Oct 13, 3:12 am, Sam Spade wrote:

If you see it as hitting a nerve, so be it. From my perspective I see
far too many light airplane pilots bitch because they have to pay for
RNAV data.

While I honestly don't mind paying a subscription price for RNAV data,
I'd say the price for what I get is way out of line as compared to the
paper product. Since my flying is local, and I carry paper charts and
plates as backup, I can't afford the rediculous yearly fee.

I just got around to updating my 430 card (3 years old) as I was to
take a XC from MS to OH to an airport that only had a GPS approach (no
ground based approach). I never made that trip and spent over $300 on
ONE approach not to be used. If this airport would have had a ground
based instrument approach, I still would have my 3 year old card in
the unit.

I would think the data once established is harvested electronically
for updates. Price for subscription with the advent of computers
should be coming down, not going up.

I'd have to agree with Jas. Maybe you have the means and money, but I
am a low end airplane owner. I can't justify putting 15K into somebody
else's pocket for rental fees, yet I don't have quite the full means
to maintain a plane on my own so something has to give. Partnership
is not an option I want to consider (and shouldn't have to).

The price for subscription does not promote safety. Reasonable to me
would be no more then $50 per year.

I paid roughly $390.00 year for my KLN-89/B subscription. I downloaded
from the B-K sight and took my laptop to the airplane.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
Sold
KSWI

On Oct 13, 11:47*am, Ross wrote:

I paid roughly $390.00 year for my KLN-89/B subscription. I downloaded
from the B-K sight and took my laptop to the airplane.

Just curious, as that price is rediculous. Did you feel you got your
"moneys" worth out of a $400.00 update per year? Or were you like me
that pretty much maintained currency by flying local approaches.
Ironically, with my 430, it doesn't have the minimums in the database,
so I still have to have my paper charts with me!

If I flew for a living or regularily flew over long distances of over
500 NM, I **might** be able to justify an expense of that nature, but
for my kind of "recreational" flying, I find it ludicrous. $400 buys
an awful lot of Avgas! The changes on my paper charts are not **that
much**. BRENZ, DABEY, ALLEN fixes have been there forever and a day.
MAFCA GPS MAP at my airport hasn't changed since I been flying IFR
approaches.

Obviously the kind of flying of 200 NM or less, I do not feel doesn't
account for the expenses of maintaining the database on my 430. In 7
years of flying I can count on one hand the changes of approaches that
I have had to reprint due to a change (mostly for MDA or DH changes).

There needs to be a balance on things and I don't have a choice when
it comes to updating my 430 card. I can't "shop" around for a better
price.

Like I said from get go, I don't expect a free lunch since the
database must be maintained by whomever at the company so I expect to
pay something for the subscription or a one time update as I did, but
we are getting gouged like no other hobby / industry that I know of.
$300 is simply scalping.