TAT scoring question

If you have a Turn Area Task and you fly into turn 1, then fly into turn
2 then pass through the finish circle could/should it be possible to
leave the finish circle and return to turn 2 and fly deeper into the
circle than you did the first time and then return to the finish circle?

On an option task, you could return to the finish, leave and attempt to
go to an additional turnpoint, but if you landed out you could (if I
understand this correctly) fill out your landing card as you had
finished the first time and not be penalized for the landout. However,
if you successfully made an additional turnpoint and returned to the
finish point you could then add that distance to your task (via landing
card) if you so chose.

If you can do that for an option task, could one apply similar logic to
the TAT as I describe above. Take a "finish" to make sure you didn't
land out, and if conditions improved then go back to the last turn point
and fly to a farther point within the circle. There is no credit for
adding an additional turnpoint, just pushing the second turnpoint mark
farther out for a longer distance calculation for the original task.

Winscore does not allow this in it's current thinking and it's kind of a
moot point because a change in our score wouldn't change our standing
for either the day or the overall, but it certainly begs for a
clarification. It might be nice to clarify this point in the rules
because someone might enter the finish cylinder one day without any
intent to "finish", but receive a "finish" from Winscore they weren't
expecting.

Mark

I'm sure all you folks know this but this thread pertains to the US rules.

Winscore is a great scoring program but it is only a tool and cannot be
expected to catch each and every exception.

Re one of your questions....first of all I can't think of how it would
benefit anyone to finish then go back out to the last area and finish again
i.e. your speed would be quite slow. Maybe if a storm developed and blew
over and you managed to stay in the air and with improving conditions
decided to go back out? Wow that's a stretch but who knows. There is
nothing in the rules that prevents you from doing that BTW.

Re your other question about not being penalized for attempting another TP
after finishing....I disagree. The Flight Documentation Interval is usually
one hour and so I can't see how you could head back out then be able to
landout, get it in the box or even get an aero retrieve and comply with that
rule. It does not apply to landouts but you can't have it both ways i.e. if
you "finished" before you landed out then you'll have to comply with the
rule, if not then you in fact did landout and will be scored that way.
Interestingly enough I can't find a rule to prevent someone from at least
attempting to do what you suggested though.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

For the case of going back out on course, in this case we had a 3 hour
minimum task time, but with the thick high cirrus developing, everyone
hit the two turnpoints (if they could) then "finished". As luck would
have it by the time we got back to the finish point (2 hours into the
task) the cirrus started to break, we worked a couple of very weak
thermals to "survive" and as it continued to improve we headed back out.
Since it appeared that any finishers would finish below the minimum
time we had an hour to use w/o any penalty to try to push our distance
up a bit which would then improve our overall speed. Crazy, but that's
what happened.

For the case of adding a turnpoint, if you're a motorglider (which we
were) you COULD get back to the finish airport after cranking out the
motor, land, and get your landing info in w/o too much trouble as long
as you were less than say 40 miles away from the finish airport.



Kilo Charlie wrote:
I'm sure all you folks know this but this thread pertains to the US rules.

Winscore is a great scoring program but it is only a tool and cannot be
expected to catch each and every exception.

Re one of your questions....first of all I can't think of how it would
benefit anyone to finish then go back out to the last area and finish again
i.e. your speed would be quite slow. Maybe if a storm developed and blew
over and you managed to stay in the air and with improving conditions
decided to go back out? Wow that's a stretch but who knows. There is
nothing in the rules that prevents you from doing that BTW.

Re your other question about not being penalized for attempting another TP
after finishing....I disagree. The Flight Documentation Interval is usually
one hour and so I can't see how you could head back out then be able to
landout, get it in the box or even get an aero retrieve and comply with that
rule. It does not apply to landouts but you can't have it both ways i.e. if
you "finished" before you landed out then you'll have to comply with the
rule, if not then you in fact did landout and will be scored that way.
Interestingly enough I can't find a rule to prevent someone from at least
attempting to do what you suggested though.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

Mark,
You are always free to request the scorer review your
flight to insure you were given the optimum score,
this happens frequently when the scoring system doesn't
always use your latest or most advantages start. Your
question about flying all the way from the second turn
area and then back there, just to add a few miles is
little more than mental masturbation, because there
is no way you will be able to improve your speed by
doing that.
:) JJ

"Mark Zivley" wrote in message
m...

For the case of adding a turnpoint, if you're a motorglider (which we
were) you COULD get back to the finish airport after cranking out the
motor, land, and get your landing info in w/o too much trouble as long
as you were less than say 40 miles away from the finish airport.

If that is the case then I would suggest that it should be addressed by an
addition to the rules to preclude any motorglider from doing what you
stated. There have been extended threads on this group re advantages vs.
disadvantages of motorgliders in a contest. What you are suggesting is
basically cheating in my mind since it is a clear and unfair advantage over
the pilots without the capability to start an engine and get back in time.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

Kilo Charlie wrote:
"Mark Zivley" wrote in message
m...


For the case of adding a turnpoint, if you're a motorglider (which we
were) you COULD get back to the finish airport after cranking out the
motor, land, and get your landing info in w/o too much trouble as long
as you were less than say 40 miles away from the finish airport.


If that is the case then I would suggest that it should be addressed by an
addition to the rules to preclude any motorglider from doing what you
stated. There have been extended threads on this group re advantages vs.
disadvantages of motorgliders in a contest. What you are suggesting is
basically cheating in my mind since it is a clear and unfair advantage over
the pilots without the capability to start an engine and get back in time.

I'm confused he how is possible to add a turnpoint AFTER you've
finished? Doesn't "finished" mean the task is over? And if you haven't
finished, then the FDI time hasn't started yet, so isn't a factor.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Let me see
if I got this straight, Mark. You are advocating an
early finish followed by an attempt to better your
speed and if that fails, you plan to beat it back home
so as to make the flight documentation time, in order
to claim your short task speed? Do I have that right,
Mark?

If I were the CD, I would land you at your engine start
point (for distance points only) and probably give
you an un-sportsman-like penalty for trying to manipulate
the rules.

I will add your example to a growing list of motor
glider abuses that I hope will lead to some constraints
being placed on motor gliders when they are allowed
to compete with pure sailplanes.
JJ Sinclair


At 20:30
29 August 2004, Mark Zivley wrote:

For the case of adding a turnpoint, if you're a motorglider
(which we
were) you COULD get back to the finish airport after
cranking out the
motor, land, and get your landing info in w/o too much
trouble as long
as you were less than say 40 miles away from the finish
airport.

John,

Hold on a second here and please don't get too carried away.

1. Everyone at the contest was a motorglider so there was no unfair
advantage to having a motor in this particular case.

2. From the word go, I'm not looking for a score change, just some
clarification on the rules. As I mentioned, even if there was a score
change it would have had no impact on the day or the total.

3. It was quite possible for us to have avoided the 2 mile radius
finish circle at the time we were "surviving" as it looked like the day
was going to re-cycle. If we had not touched the finish circle then
there should have been no question that we could have gone back to turn
area 2 with the additional altitude that we had earned and generated a
point that was deeper into turn 2 that would have given us more credit
for distance and therefore speed.

4. Let's not get too carried away w/ "unsportsmanlike" conduct. I
simply have pointed out an example that did really occur. It's not
unsportsmanlike to go to the finish point and use it as a turn point and
then head back out in the hopes that you can tack on one more turnpoint.
If you make it to an additional turn point and come back to the
finish point you have the option (motorglider or not) to decide at the
time that you fill in your landing card as to whether you claim the
additional turn point or not. True?

Remember, I'm not ranting and raving here, just pointing out what
happened so it can be clarified (hopefully) as we go forward.

Mark

Correct me if I'm wrong, Mark, but you said you could
attempt another turn point on a MAT and if that didn't
work out, just crank up the old Put-Put and motor home
in time to claim your earlier flight?

I see an un-motored sailpland finishes second, look
for a request to not allow un-powered sailplanes in
a motorglider contest. With that for a basis, how about
a rule that doesn't allow motor sailplanes in a ------------------
--------- You can see where I'm going with this. If
I had my way, you would hand the CD your sparkplugs
when you entered the contest. Then the playing field
really would be equal.
JJ





JJ

John,

Please remember that the original issue had NOTHING to do w/ motors. If
you have a TAT and you nick the finish circle, could/should it be
allowed to go back and push a turn point back out for extra distance?
If yes, then perhaps winscore could be revised to calculate for that.
If no then it would be nice to inform everyone, via the rules, that the
finish circle needs to be avoided until you're done. I simply pointed
out the precedent that one could use the finish point in a MAT as a turn
point and then decide later how the flight should be scored as an example.

If you want to start a new thread about motorgliders, please go right
ahead...

Mark