Compass turns revisited

Got a little memory jog in the April 2006 Designee Update...other than
"Basic Instrument Flight Maneuvers," there is nothing in the 2004 (latest)
PTS about timed turns OR compass turns. Nothing. Nada. So instrument pilot
wannabes need not be concerned about demonstrating either one to the
examiner. The examiner has some degree of latitude in deciding just what a
"basic instrument flight maneuver" is...but no one is going to get a pink
slip with "Timed turns to headings" on it.

Bob Gardner

The examiner has some degree of latitude in deciding just what a
"basic instrument flight maneuver" is...but no one is going to get a
pink
slip with "Timed turns to headings" on it.

However, the full procedure partial panel non-precision approach is
still in place, and in order to do that you will need to do compass
turns or timed turns to headings. The change allows you to do what
works best for you. Over time, I've discovered that what works best
depends on the student and the equipment.

Some students just don't get math. For them, the mental math required
to figure out how many seconds the turn needs to be is too much to do
while flying under the hood. For others, the jumping around, lead, and
lag of the compass is too difficult to deal with - they prefer to time
the turn, the check the compass only in level flight.

I personally belong to the latter camp. I am a strong believer in only
looking at the compass when I know it will be accurate, and using time
for turns when the heading gyro is not available. I've taught some
students that method, and they've done well with it. Others hated it,
and wound up just looking at the compass anyway. If they slow the rate
of turn to half-standard-rate when getting close to the heading, it
works reasonably well. Fortunately I've never had a student who
couldn't deal with either method. I'm not sure what I would do then.

Michael

Michael wrote:
Fortunately I've never had a student who couldn't deal with either
method. I'm not sure what I would do then.

I think the answer needs to be "not sign them off for the checkride".
The ability to turn to and maintain a heading without a working DG is
an essential skill. Somehow you need to be able to do it.

Just turning until the little picture of the airplane is pointing in
the same direction as the purple line might just be a reasonable plan
with today's cockpits. Unfortunately, I'm not sure you would convince
an examiner of that.

Back when all our airplanes had ADF's in them, just setting the ADF to
a distant AM radio station made a decent DG replacement.

A new replacement for the ADF is the GPS, of course. Many, like the
GNS430, provide course information that's a very useful replacement for
a bad gyro. I used it on my checkride and the examiner made me turn to
a different page. But if all the electrons die, you have to know how
to use a magnetic compass.

I think the answer needs to be "not sign them off for the checkride".


Well, that's a defeatist attitude. I would like to think that I would
come up with some method they could handle.

Just turning until the little picture of the airplane is pointing in
the same direction as the purple line might just be a reasonable plan

with today's cockpits.

In a glass cockpit Cirrus (at least the one I flew) it is the only
plan. A PFD failure leaves you with ASI, electric AI, Altimeter - and
two Garmin 430's without CDI's (the only CDI is built into the HSI
presentation on the PFD). The only approach you can shoot after PFD
failure is a GPS, and you can shoot it ONLY by turning until the little
picture of the airplane is pointing in the same direction as the purple
line. I suppose you could use a compass, but I'm not sure what the
benefit would be.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure you would convince an examiner of that.

In the Cirrus I flew, there was no way to simulate PFD failure (vacuum?
who dat?) which would not allow that approach to work. There would be
no convincing involved, and with the deletion of compass turns from the
PTS, the examiner no longer has the option of failing both GPS units (I
guess we lost the PFD and both GPS units or the constellation?) and
making the applicant do compass turns.

Of course the recommended emergency procedure in the event of PFD
failure is to engage the autopilot and not hand-fly at all, and you can
argue that losing the autopilot AND the PFD on the same flight is
unlikely. On the other hand, that makes the autopilot a no-go item for
IMC, and I doubt any examiner would accept this.

The interesting question is whether an examiner would insist on setting
up a situation, however improbable, that would require the student to
do partial panel flying without the GPS. I suppose he might, but it
would surprise me if he did. Is it reasonable to expect an instrument
rating applicant to be able to handle multiple point failures - and
then allow him to carry passengers in low IMC in a single engine
airplane?

Much as I hate to say it, the truth is that partial panel as we know it
is not so much a valuable skill in itself (except in the sense that
learning to do ANYTHING that is demanding in an airplane is valuable as
it makes you a better pilot) and more a reasoned response to flying
with unreasonable technology. When both your sole attitude gyro and
your sole heading gyro are plumbed to a single dry pump, you better be
proficient at flying with both of them failed, since dry pumps are
junk. It might interest you to know that the ATP checkride includes no
partial panel work at all, since that sort of crap is not tolerated in
transport category aircraft.

Michael

Well, there is the small problem of flying an approach with no primary
instruments. While not specifically demonstrating either method, one
presumably has to have a way fo navigating without reference to a
directional gyro.

But you raise an interesting question. If equipped with GPS, can it
acceptably be used in lieu of a compass? I see no reason why not.


On Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:45:09 -0700, "Bob Gardner"
wrote:

Got a little memory jog in the April 2006 Designee Update...other than
"Basic Instrument Flight Maneuvers," there is nothing in the 2004 (latest)
PTS about timed turns OR compass turns. Nothing. Nada. So instrument pilot
wannabes need not be concerned about demonstrating either one to the
examiner. The examiner has some degree of latitude in deciding just what a
"basic instrument flight maneuver" is...but no one is going to get a pink
slip with "Timed turns to headings" on it.

Bob Gardner

On 4 Apr 2005 14:48:26 -0400, (Roy Smith) wrote:

Michael wrote:
Fortunately I've never had a student who couldn't deal with either
method. I'm not sure what I would do then.

I think the answer needs to be "not sign them off for the checkride".
The ability to turn to and maintain a heading without a working DG is
an essential skill. Somehow you need to be able to do it.

Just turning until the little picture of the airplane is pointing in
the same direction as the purple line might just be a reasonable plan
with today's cockpits. Unfortunately, I'm not sure you would convince
an examiner of that.


Why would you have to convince an examiner of anything?

The PTS doesnt require that one look at a specific device. It says
only that the applicant must complete a maneuver to a certain standard
with (or without) certain equipment.

The PTS determines what equipment is or is not available to the
applicant, not the examiner.


Back when all our airplanes had ADF's in them, just setting the ADF to
a distant AM radio station made a decent DG replacement.

On 4 Apr 2005 13:05:12 -0700, "paul kgyy" wrote:

I used it on my checkride and the examiner made me turn to
a different page

The examiner was not authorized to do this.

Pilots need to hold examiners to the same standards that the examiners
hold the pilots, i.e., the standards as described by the PTS.

Pilots don't get to say "I think I'll do it this way, and screw what
the standards say".

Neither does the examiner.

Do you get the Designee Update? Good stuff in the April edition in the
context of this thread. Go to the AFS-600 page and click on Designee Update.

Bob

"Michael" wrote in message
oups.com...
The examiner has some degree of latitude in deciding just what a
"basic instrument flight maneuver" is...but no one is going to get a
pink
slip with "Timed turns to headings" on it.

However, the full procedure partial panel non-precision approach is
still in place, and in order to do that you will need to do compass
turns or timed turns to headings. The change allows you to do what
works best for you. Over time, I've discovered that what works best
depends on the student and the equipment.

Some students just don't get math. For them, the mental math required
to figure out how many seconds the turn needs to be is too much to do
while flying under the hood. For others, the jumping around, lead, and
lag of the compass is too difficult to deal with - they prefer to time
the turn, the check the compass only in level flight.

I personally belong to the latter camp. I am a strong believer in only
looking at the compass when I know it will be accurate, and using time
for turns when the heading gyro is not available. I've taught some
students that method, and they've done well with it. Others hated it,
and wound up just looking at the compass anyway. If they slow the rate
of turn to half-standard-rate when getting close to the heading, it
works reasonably well. Fortunately I've never had a student who
couldn't deal with either method. I'm not sure what I would do then.

Michael

In a glass cockpit Cirrus (at least the one I flew) it is the only
plan. A PFD failure leaves you with ASI, electric AI, Altimeter - and
two Garmin 430's without CDI's (the only CDI is built into the HSI
presentation on the PFD).

Don't the 430's still have the CDI on the "Default NAV page"? Or did Garmin
change the interface for the Cirrus?