Gasahol Update

Taken directly from the EAA website www.eaa.org and then to the autogas STC
page:


In the opinion of EAA, and in the interest of most conservative operations,
the following observations are offered:

a.. If alcohol content is less than 1%, fuel will probably have no effect
on aircraft.

b.. If fuel contains up to 5% alcohol, caution must be exercised. Do not
permit it to remain in tanks or fuel system more than 24 hours, then drain
and refill with alcohol-free fuel, ensuring that no alcohol concentration
remains in fuel lines or sump. Vapor lock may be a problem. DO NOT FLY.

c.. If alcohol content is more than 5%, DO NOT FLY. Drain fuel system,
flush all parts, replace with clean alcohol-free fuel and run up engine long
enough to exchange fuel in carburetor bowl.

So now the question is posed ... if I take some California gasahol (5.3%)
and dilute it down with 100LL to a 5% concentration, it seems that if I use
it within 24 hours, I can continue to use our gasahol. My calculation says
that 50 gallons of gasahol diluted with 5 gallons of LL would meet the 5%
limitation. Hell, I wouldn't object to running 50-50 if it means I can cut
the lead content in half.

Yet in another place on the website, it says that the gasoline can have NO
alcohol. I'm so confused. {;-)

E'splain to me also why you folks in Wisconsin, Iowa, and the rest of the
midwest are getting your 100LL for $2.50 a gallon or so while I'm paying
$3.50 with the refinery just across the central valley.



Jim

100LL is priced at $2.93, self serve country airport, county run.. so it has
all the county "tax profits" added in.. we have seen as high as $3.65 this
spring.

BT

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...
Taken directly from the EAA website www.eaa.org and then to the autogas
STC page:


In the opinion of EAA, and in the interest of most conservative
operations, the following observations are offered:

a.. If alcohol content is less than 1%, fuel will probably have no effect
on aircraft.

b.. If fuel contains up to 5% alcohol, caution must be exercised. Do not
permit it to remain in tanks or fuel system more than 24 hours, then drain
and refill with alcohol-free fuel, ensuring that no alcohol concentration
remains in fuel lines or sump. Vapor lock may be a problem. DO NOT FLY.

c.. If alcohol content is more than 5%, DO NOT FLY. Drain fuel system,
flush all parts, replace with clean alcohol-free fuel and run up engine
long enough to exchange fuel in carburetor bowl.

So now the question is posed ... if I take some California gasahol (5.3%)
and dilute it down with 100LL to a 5% concentration, it seems that if I
use it within 24 hours, I can continue to use our gasahol. My calculation
says that 50 gallons of gasahol diluted with 5 gallons of LL would meet
the 5% limitation. Hell, I wouldn't object to running 50-50 if it means I
can cut the lead content in half.

Yet in another place on the website, it says that the gasoline can have NO
alcohol. I'm so confused. {;-)

E'splain to me also why you folks in Wisconsin, Iowa, and the rest of the
midwest are getting your 100LL for $2.50 a gallon or so while I'm paying
$3.50 with the refinery just across the central valley.



Jim

RST Engineering wrote:

E'splain to me also why you folks in Wisconsin, Iowa, and the rest of the
midwest are getting your 100LL for $2.50 a gallon or so while I'm paying
$3.50 with the refinery just across the central valley.

Probably different tax levies account for a substantial part of the
difference. I think CA is among the highest taxing states in the union.
Call Ahnold and tell him to lower your taxes.


Matt

E'splain to me also why you folks in Wisconsin, Iowa, and the rest of the
midwest are getting your 100LL for $2.50 a gallon or so while I'm paying
$3.50 with the refinery just across the central valley.

Sorry, Jim. I filled "The Mighty Grape" today for $1.93 per gallon.

Avgas is still $3.35.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

E'splain to me also why you folks in Wisconsin, Iowa, and the rest of the
midwest are getting your 100LL for $2.50 a gallon or so while I'm paying
$3.50 with the refinery just across the central valley.

Base price (pre-tax) wholesale, 100LL is the same here as mogas. I know
this because I buy transports of mogas for our farm and my friend in the
crop dusting business we use buys transports of 100LL. Both of us buy
pre-taxes. Current mogas at the stations around here is $2.14, KSTE 100LL
is $2.98, the difference is FBO markups, extra transportation costs for the
smaller quantities of avgas delivered, and the shopping power of your FBO.

We're in the central part of the state, Koch has a pipeline coming down to
us from Minneapolis. The eastern part of the state get's fuel from Green
Bay and a pipeline coming up from Chicago. Drive 20 miles east of here and
you get eastern fuel which is 10 cents cheaper than the fuel Koch is pumping
to us from Minneapolis. Koch just likes to screw us, or they like our
money, or we're too stupid to fill up east of here. Probably a little of
both.

I can actually get a transport from Green Bay (95 miles) $0.04 cents per
gallon cheaper than I can from the Koch terminal which is just 20 miles
away, that's $400 that stays in my pocket.

Wisconsin mogas tax is 31.1 cents per gallon, nearly the highest state tax
in the nation. I think the Federal tax is 14.3 cents. The Wisconsin state
aviation fuel tax is only $0.06 (I think CA's is $0.18) and Federal is
$0.194, so Wisconsin's total aviation fuel taxes, lacking any local taxes,
are actually less than our mogas taxes. There have been times lately that
you can fill up at a local self serve FBO cheaper than you can at the gas
station across the street.

$1.47 actual wholesale price per NY NYMEX
+0.165 cents shipping/handling NY to WIS
+0.194 Uncle Sam
+0.06 Wisconsin tax
+0.00 local fuel tax
=$1.889 wholesale delivered after tax FBO price
+$1.091 FBO markup
=$2.98 current FBO price KSTE

Take out all but $0.05 per gallon shipping cause the refinery is right
across the valley, add another $0.12 state tax, and it leaves your FBO
about $1.606 per gallon to pay local taxes/fees and themselves.

Jim

On Mon, 30 May 2005 12:15:02 -0700, "RST Engineering"
wrote:

E'splain to me also why you folks in Wisconsin, Iowa, and the rest of the
midwest are getting your 100LL for $2.50 a gallon or so while I'm paying
$3.50 with the refinery just across the central valley.

CA gas taxes?

(It's not $2.50 locally, though it's under $3.00, while mogas is
over.)


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
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the blog: www.danford.net
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Jim,
Those recommendations are based on the alcohol being wood alcohol -
METHANOL (highly corrosive to brass, rubber, cork, etc.)... Where the
alky is ETHANOL (corn whiskey) you can be more relaxed about alky
remaining in the tank even at the 5% level... So, while your
assumption that if you dilute sufficiently you can leave it is right
on, you will have a bigger margin of safety if you can find ethanol
based gasahol...

denny - in Michigan where we can get alky free mogas...

Denny wrote:
Jim,
Those recommendations are based on the alcohol being wood alcohol -
METHANOL (highly corrosive to brass, rubber, cork, etc.)... Where the
alky is ETHANOL (corn whiskey) you can be more relaxed about alky
remaining in the tank even at the 5% level... So, while your
assumption that if you dilute sufficiently you can leave it is right
on, you will have a bigger margin of safety if you can find ethanol
based gasahol...

denny - in Michigan where we can get alky free mogas...

First off, methanol is not corrosive to brass. Second I do not think
there is much differance between ethanol and methanol as for as
corrosive effects on synthetic rubber. Third, the alcohol in mogas is
a lot less corrosive to rubber than the toulene in 100LL. Any plastic
floats left out there?

There is a whole new line of excellent plastic floats called Aerocets.
Although I don't know how that is relevant.

One thing about mogas, it is best to get the mogas that airports have
..They typically get car gas that does not have the car gas additives.
No one really knows what these car gas additives will do to an aircraft
engine. Also, keep in mind car gas is NO LEAD. Lead has lubrication and
cushioning properties. I know people complain about the lead deposits
on their spark plugs, but lead has beneficial side effects also. Then
there is octane. The gas you use needs to have enough octane so your
engine doesn't knock. This depends on your engines compression ratio
and altitude you fly at. Lastly, avgas has stabilizers so it doesn't
gell when it sits for long periods of time, mogas doesn't.

Doug wrote:
There is a whole new line of excellent plastic floats called Aerocets.
Although I don't know how that is relevant.

Because the toulene in 100LL melted the plastic floats in many carbs.
Big STC to replace them about two decades ago.


One thing about mogas, it is best to get the mogas that airports have
.They typically get car gas that does not have the car gas additives.

Total BS, most FBO's that sell mo gas are either small mom and pop
operations that do not have a very large tank to ask the local
distributer to eliminate the aditive package, or they only offer it
because they are also using it for their ground equipment. Besides the
additives are only detergents which would only help to get rid of
carbon and lead deposits. The alcohol is added at the refienery not
the distributer.

No one really knows what these car gas additives will do to an aircraft
engine. Also, keep in mind car gas is NO LEAD. Lead has lubrication and
cushioning properties. BS! A myth created by the gas companies to discorage the government from eliminating lead, and an excuse for car companies to explain their valve failures. Aircraft engines are tested for compatibility before issuing the STC. My old Cessna had less problems on mogas than 100LL. No stuck valves on mogas.