And A Little Software Program Shall Lead Them...... :-)

Cecil E. Chapman wrote in message
. ..
I really can't say since I've never used those program in that capacity.
Do
these other programs provide similiar features to the one I mentioned? I
really don't know for sure....


Pretty much, yes. MSFS is quite a bit cheaper, though the replay features
are not quite as robust as On Top. But I gave up on On Top because it
doesn't use standard drivers and wouldn't configure for my preferred game
controller...

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas

Anyone considering getting MSFS should wait until the new version comes
out
later this month.

The earlier post got me checking,,,, yours is a great suggestion because
2004 is supposed to come with some IFR features!

--
--
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
PP-ASEL

"We who fly do so for the love of flying.
We are alive in the air with this miracle
that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"

- Cecil Day Lewis-

My personal adventures as a student pilot
and after my PPL: www.bayareapilot.com
"Gary L. Drescher" wrote in message
news:9GVOa.14798$GL4.4482@rwcrnsc53...
"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

Cecil E. Chapman wrote in message
. ..
I really can't say since I've never used those program in that
capacity.
Do
these other programs provide similiar features to the one I mentioned?
I
really don't know for sure....


Pretty much, yes. MSFS is quite a bit cheaper, though the replay
features
are not quite as robust as On Top. But I gave up on On Top because it
doesn't use standard drivers and wouldn't configure for my preferred
game
controller...

I've never used On Top, but the replay features in MSFS are pretty cool.
You can get a simultaneous chart/track view and profile/altitude view.



--Gary

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas

Gary L. Drescher wrote in message
news:9GVOa.14798$GL4.4482@rwcrnsc53...
"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

Cecil E. Chapman wrote in message
. ..
I really can't say since I've never used those program in that
capacity.
Do
these other programs provide similiar features to the one I mentioned?
I
really don't know for sure....


Pretty much, yes. MSFS is quite a bit cheaper, though the replay
features
are not quite as robust as On Top. But I gave up on On Top because it
doesn't use standard drivers and wouldn't configure for my preferred
game
controller...

I've never used On Top, but the replay features in MSFS are pretty cool.
You can get a simultaneous chart/track view and profile/altitude view.


The thing I really liked about the replay mode was being able to watch the
instruments as well as the plan and profile views during playback....

Anyone considering getting MSFS should wait until the new version comes
out
later this month.


Definitely!

"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote in message
. ..
Anyone considering getting MSFS should wait until the new version comes
out later this month.

The earlier post got me checking,,,, yours is a great suggestion because
2004 is supposed to come with some IFR features!

Even the earlier versions are great for IFR practice. Airports, nav aids,
and terrain are realistically depicted. You can set cloud ceilings/types
and visibility/precipitation (or you can automatically download real wx
conditions) for somewhat realistic transitions to visual during the
approach. As of FS2002, there's been a built-in ATC as well, but the FS2004
ATC is supposed to be much better (as is the weather model).

--Gary

--
--
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
PP-ASEL

"We who fly do so for the love of flying.
We are alive in the air with this miracle
that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"

- Cecil Day Lewis-

My personal adventures as a student pilot
and after my PPL: www.bayareapilot.com
"Gary L. Drescher" wrote in message
news:9GVOa.14798$GL4.4482@rwcrnsc53...
"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

Cecil E. Chapman wrote in message
. ..
I really can't say since I've never used those program in that
capacity.
Do
these other programs provide similiar features to the one I
mentioned?
I
really don't know for sure....


Pretty much, yes. MSFS is quite a bit cheaper, though the replay
features
are not quite as robust as On Top. But I gave up on On Top because it
doesn't use standard drivers and wouldn't configure for my preferred
game
controller...

I've never used On Top, but the replay features in MSFS are pretty cool.
You can get a simultaneous chart/track view and profile/altitude view.



--Gary

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas

"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote
As y'all know I'm working on my instrument rating (only 15 hours into it so
far). I just had to mention a WONDERFUL aid that I found in practicing nav
radio navigation practice: OnTop IFR Proficiency Simulator.

Good for you. Personally, I have NO idea why the use of PC-based
flight sim products has not become universal in instrument training.
OnTop is fine, as is MS and others. In the past few years, the flight
models on all of them have come so far that for instrument purposes
(where maneuvers are limited to relatively shallow banks and a fairly
narrow speed range) the realism is more than adequate.

Now of course
I realize it can't be used for real simulator time

So what? That's not the point. The point is that instead of mentally
rehearsing the procedures to be flown (chair-flying) you can do it
with a high degree of realism. The instrument rating is quite easily
achievable in 40 instrument hours, but requires extensive ground
training (either solo or with an instructor). Any of the flight sim
products make the ground training dramatically more effective. I
always recommend them to all my instrument students.

Now what I would REALLY like is a 'multiplayer' version for student
training. Ideally it would allow me to network in a second PC, show
me all the same instrument indications the student is getting, plus a
moving map presentation of where the student is, and the ability to
fail his instruments. With something like this, I could really make
procedures training efficient and save the airtime for working on
important things we can't do in the sim like XC in actual weather,
circling maneuvers, and other stuff that can't effectively be
simulated.

Michael

"Michael" wrote in message
om...
"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote
As y'all know I'm working on my instrument rating (only 15 hours into it
so
far). I just had to mention a WONDERFUL aid that I found in practicing
nav
radio navigation practice: OnTop IFR Proficiency Simulator.

Good for you. Personally, I have NO idea why the use of PC-based
flight sim products has not become universal in instrument training.
OnTop is fine, as is MS and others. In the past few years, the flight
models on all of them have come so far that for instrument purposes
(where maneuvers are limited to relatively shallow banks and a fairly
narrow speed range) the realism is more than adequate.

Now of course
I realize it can't be used for real simulator time

So what? That's not the point. The point is that instead of mentally
rehearsing the procedures to be flown (chair-flying) you can do it
with a high degree of realism. The instrument rating is quite easily
achievable in 40 instrument hours, but requires extensive ground
training (either solo or with an instructor). Any of the flight sim
products make the ground training dramatically more effective. I
always recommend them to all my instrument students.

Now what I would REALLY like is a 'multiplayer' version for student
training. Ideally it would allow me to network in a second PC, show
me all the same instrument indications the student is getting, plus a
moving map presentation of where the student is, and the ability to
fail his instruments.

MS FS2002 Pro has an Instructor Mode that lets you do those things. It
works over the Internet, so you and the student don't even need to be in the
same physical location.

--Gary

With something like this, I could really make
procedures training efficient and save the airtime for working on
important things we can't do in the sim like XC in actual weather,
circling maneuvers, and other stuff that can't effectively be
simulated.




Michael

I'm just about finished with the rating and have found the simulator
combined with an instructor to be really helpful. I started with a certified
Elite system for the first 10 hours and it really improved my procedures and
mental prep. It's just a lot easier to learn when you're not concentrating
on flying in our afternoon turbulence and your instructor can focus on what
you are doing because he doesn't have to keep one eye open for traffic. The
MS 2002 is really pretty good as well and I've been using it for practice
before the checkride. It's all pilot nav right now but I understand the new
version is going to have more IFR features and support dual monitors for
instructors. BTW, if you haven't figured it out already, the rating is a
blast. Nailing an approach is like making a perfect landing, very mentally
rewarding.


Mike Clapp
LVK


"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote in message
.com...
As y'all know I'm working on my instrument rating (only 15 hours into it
so
far). I just had to mention a WONDERFUL aid that I found in practicing
nav
radio navigation practice: OnTop IFR Proficiency Simulator. Now of
course
I realize it can't be used for real simulator time, but it has been such a
great aid on practicing hold entries (it has the airport and navaid
database). I can start myself off from any position and try different
hold
entries. I can also go to another screen and 'playback' what I have just
done,,,, with my track superimposed over a basic chart. Also, you can
pause
the simulation and take a look at a map which shows your current position
at
any time. I started using it just a handful of days ago after feeling
kinda
'stupid' not getting the way to make the various holding pattern entries.

I just thought I'd pass along this aid, just in case there are others like
me, who need a little something extra to help visually conceptualize all
this IFR stuff.

--
--
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
PP-ASEL

"We who fly do so for the love of flying.
We are alive in the air with this miracle
that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"

- Cecil Day Lewis-

My personal adventures as a student pilot
and after my PPL: www.bayareapilot.com

"MikeC" wrote in message
...
I'm just about finished with the rating and have found the simulator
combined with an instructor to be really helpful. I started with a
certified
Elite system for the first 10 hours and it really improved my procedures
and
mental prep. It's just a lot easier to learn when you're not concentrating
on flying in our afternoon turbulence and your instructor can focus on
what
you are doing because he doesn't have to keep one eye open for traffic.
The
MS 2002 is really pretty good as well and I've been using it for practice
before the checkride. It's all pilot nav right now but I understand the
new
version is going to have more IFR features and support dual monitors for
instructors.

MS FS2002 already supports a networked connection to an instructor's
computer. (There's also a multiplayer mode so you can fly with your friends
and see each others' planes.)

--Gary


BTW, if you haven't figured it out already, the rating is a
blast. Nailing an approach is like making a perfect landing, very mentally
rewarding.


Mike Clapp
LVK


"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote in message
.com...
As y'all know I'm working on my instrument rating (only 15 hours into it
so
far). I just had to mention a WONDERFUL aid that I found in practicing
nav
radio navigation practice: OnTop IFR Proficiency Simulator. Now of
course
I realize it can't be used for real simulator time, but it has been such
a
great aid on practicing hold entries (it has the airport and navaid
database). I can start myself off from any position and try different
hold
entries. I can also go to another screen and 'playback' what I have
just
done,,,, with my track superimposed over a basic chart. Also, you can
pause
the simulation and take a look at a map which shows your current
position
at
any time. I started using it just a handful of days ago after feeling
kinda
'stupid' not getting the way to make the various holding pattern
entries.

I just thought I'd pass along this aid, just in case there are others
like
me, who need a little something extra to help visually conceptualize all
this IFR stuff.

--
--
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
PP-ASEL

"We who fly do so for the love of flying.
We are alive in the air with this miracle
that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"

- Cecil Day Lewis-

My personal adventures as a student pilot
and after my PPL: www.bayareapilot.com

You can do that with OnTop Version 8.0...

"Michael"

Now what I would REALLY like is a 'multiplayer' version for student
training. Ideally it would allow me to network in a second PC, show
me all the same instrument indications the student is getting, plus a
moving map presentation of where the student is, and the ability to
fail his instruments. With something like this, I could really make
procedures training efficient and save the airtime for working on
important things we can't do in the sim like XC in actual weather,
circling maneuvers, and other stuff that can't effectively be
simulated.

Michael



Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

Gary L. Drescher wrote:

I've never used On Top, but the replay features in MSFS are pretty cool.
You can get a simultaneous chart/track view and profile/altitude view.

Gary,

Do you know the earliest version of MSFS with this feature? '98?
2000?

Thanks,
Sydney