Holds on autopilot?

In real life, do most pilots equipped with autopilots use them to fly
holds (i.e., by using the HDG function of the autopilot, and possibly
altitude holds or autothrottle if available), or do they fly the plane
by hand through the holds?

When you are tested on your ability to fly holds, do you have to fly
them by hand, or can you use the autopilot as above?

Note that I'm not talking about fully automated systems that will fly
the entire hold pattern automatically, I'm talking about just using
heading and altitude controls in the autopilot to simplify the task of
turning and rolling out, turning and rolling out, over and over.

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Mxsmanic wrote:
In real life, do most pilots equipped with autopilots use them to fly
holds (i.e., by using the HDG function of the autopilot, and possibly
altitude holds or autothrottle if available), or do they fly the plane
by hand through the holds?

Holds are the perfect time for the autopilot. Usually, I do them in
HDG mode, but the GNS480 will steer the autopilot around the hold
in GPSS mode (either as a part of a charted approach, or you can
just throw a hold in at any waypoint)


When you are tested on your ability to fly holds, do you have to fly
them by hand, or can you use the autopilot as above?

The examiner expects you to use the autopilot when appropriate. Of
course, they can (and will) make you hand fly any part of the test
that they need to evaluate fully.


Note that I'm not talking about fully automated systems that will fly
the entire hold pattern automatically, I'm talking about just using
heading and altitude controls in the autopilot to simplify the task of
turning and rolling out, turning and rolling out, over and over.


It's not a feature of the autopilot in my plane. It's the GPS.
The autopilot just does what the GPS tells it.

Mxsmanic wrote:
In real life, do most pilots equipped with autopilots use them to fly
holds (i.e., by using the HDG function of the autopilot, and possibly
altitude holds or autothrottle if available), or do they fly the plane
by hand through the holds?

Even in the very advanced G1000 aircraft the autopilot doesn't fly the
hold. However you can manually set the heading and drive it around the
hold. The GNS 480 will drive the hold and is awesome but its just a
box, not an integrated system like the G1000.
The best thing about any IFR GPS system (430,480,530,G1000) is that it
gives you the entry procedure. That's 95% of the complexity of the
hold, fingering out the entry.

When you are tested on your ability to fly holds, do you have to fly
them by hand, or can you use the autopilot as above?

Usually when you are being tested on holding you are being tested on
two things...
1) Using a correct entry procedure (or at least staying on the safe
side) and
2) Timing the hold to arrive back at the holding fix right at the EFC
time. A hold can be 4,3 or 2 minutes so you mix them up to make the
time come out right.
Just the flying around in circles part isn't anything difficult itself.

Note that I'm not talking about fully automated systems that will fly
the entire hold pattern automatically, I'm talking about just using
heading and altitude controls in the autopilot to simplify the task of
turning and rolling out, turning and rolling out, over and over.

Usually you do use the autopilot, because the hold is usually when you
are briefing the approach. Pre-approach is the busiest time because you
need to study the approach.

In real life holding is about as common as being hit by lightening.
Even when you do get a hold its usually just a vectored hold, not a
formal procedures. The only time you really get to fly holds is to
remote airports without ATC when the approach procedure requires a hold
for the procedure turn.

-Robert

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...


2) Timing the hold to arrive back at the holding fix right at the EFC
time. A hold can be 4,3 or 2 minutes so you mix them up to make the
time come out right.

Huh? Did you make all that up? The only time you need to cross the holding
fix at any particular time is when you are doing a timed approach from the
hold and you are given a crossing time. EFC time has nothing to do with
anything other than lost com, and there is no requirement or recommendation
from the FAA or anyone else I have ever heard to attempt crossing the fix at
EFC time, nor can I imagine any need to do so.

A hold can be 4,3 or 2 minutes so you mix them up to make the
time come out right.

A hold can be almost any time you want unless you are assigned a specific
time, and that time applies to the inbound leg, and is not meant to be
precise. A default hold is a one-minute inbound leg, but you can make it
longer or shorter if you want and nobody cares. Don't go to extremes, and
go do five minutes, but within wide limits (depends on your speed), it just
doesn't really matter. There is no specification anywhere that a hold must
be four or three or two minutes or combinations thereof. The only guidance
is a one-minute inbound leg for the default holding pattern, and staying
within the maximum distance specified on the chart, if any. Of course, on a
checkride, you ought to strive for the specified time for the inbound leg.

On a timed approach, the crossing time is meant to be fairly exact, so you
adjust as required, and not in increments of one minute.

I don't understand the point of telling people that they shouldn't worry
much about holds because you hardly ever have to fly one. You do have to
fly them at times, and when that time comes, you have to know how to do them
and be proficient at it. They are a standard maneuver of instrument flying.

Stan Prevost wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...


2) Timing the hold to arrive back at the holding fix right at the EFC
time. A hold can be 4,3 or 2 minutes so you mix them up to make the
time come out right.

Huh? Did you make all that up? The only time you need to cross the holding
fix at any particular time is when you are doing a timed approach from the
hold and you are given a crossing time. EFC time has nothing to do with
anything other than lost com, and there is no requirement or recommendation
from the FAA or anyone else I have ever heard to attempt crossing the fix at
EFC time, nor can I imagine any need to do so.

From the instrument PTS III(C) "Holding Procedures"
"8.Uses proper wind correction procedures to maintain the desired
pattern and to arrive over the fix as close as possible to a specified
time."

On your checkride you need to time your hold to arrive over the fix w/i
about 1 minute of the specified time.


A hold can be 4,3 or 2 minutes so you mix them up to make the
time come out right.

A hold can be almost any time you want unless you are assigned a specific
time, and that time applies to the inbound leg, and is not meant to be
precise.

Right, that's how you cause the aircraft to arrive at the fix at the
ETC.

I don't understand the point of telling people that they shouldn't worry
much about holds because you hardly ever have to fly one.

I never said that.

-Robert, CFII

Ron Natalie writes:

Holds are the perfect time for the autopilot. Usually, I do them in
HDG mode, but the GNS480 will steer the autopilot around the hold
in GPSS mode (either as a part of a charted approach, or you can
just throw a hold in at any waypoint)

How do you do it with the GNS480? Is it possible with a GNS530? I've
looked in the manual but I don't see anything that explains how to do
it.

The examiner expects you to use the autopilot when appropriate. Of
course, they can (and will) make you hand fly any part of the test
that they need to evaluate fully.

Hmm, okay. Not that I'll be taking an exam any time soon, but I was
curious.

It's not a feature of the autopilot in my plane. It's the GPS.
The autopilot just does what the GPS tells it.

If there's a way to get a GNS430 or GNS530 to do it, I'd like to know
how.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Robert M. Gary writes:

In real life holding is about as common as being hit by lightening.
Even when you do get a hold its usually just a vectored hold, not a
formal procedures. The only time you really get to fly holds is to
remote airports without ATC when the approach procedure requires a hold
for the procedure turn.

I've read that holds have become very rare since ATC adopted the
policy of spacing flights from their departure points rather than en
route. I remember when I was young hearing about holding patterns a
lot, but apparently those are largely a thing of the past.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

People do care..

"Stan Prevost" wrote in message
...

A hold can be almost any time you want unless you are assigned a specific
time, and that time applies to the inbound leg, and is not meant to be
precise. A default hold is a one-minute inbound leg, but you can make it
longer or shorter if you want and nobody cares. Don't go to extremes, and
go do five minutes, but within wide limits (depends on your speed), it
just doesn't really matter. There is no specification anywhere that a
hold must be four or three or two minutes or combinations thereof. The
only guidance is a one-minute inbound leg for the default holding pattern,
and staying within the maximum distance specified on the chart, if any.
Of course, on a checkride, you ought to strive for the specified time for
the inbound leg.


People do care about timeing in the holding pattern, time is set to one
minute on the inbound leg, (1.5 min at higher altitudes) to for "protected
airspace", this protected airspace is to protect you from other traffic or
terrain in a non radar enviroment. You can ask for more from ATC. But if you
do not ask, he is expecting you to fly one minute legs (1.5 min legs).. and
not extend your pattern to 20nm on your own whim.

BT

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...

Stan Prevost wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...


2) Timing the hold to arrive back at the holding fix right at the EFC
time. A hold can be 4,3 or 2 minutes so you mix them up to make the
time come out right.

Huh? Did you make all that up? The only time you need to cross the
holding
fix at any particular time is when you are doing a timed approach from
the
hold and you are given a crossing time. EFC time has nothing to do with
anything other than lost com, and there is no requirement or
recommendation
from the FAA or anyone else I have ever heard to attempt crossing the fix
at
EFC time, nor can I imagine any need to do so.

From the instrument PTS III(C) "Holding Procedures"
"8.Uses proper wind correction procedures to maintain the desired
pattern and to arrive over the fix as close as possible to a specified
time."

On your checkride you need to time your hold to arrive over the fix w/i
about 1 minute of the specified time.


That relates to timed approaches from a holding fix, which is the only time
a crossing time will be specified. No specific tolerances on the time are
given anywhere that I know of. I wouldn't disagree with your "about one
minute", although nobody I know uses tolerances that large in training.
DPEs around here don't seem to specify a time.

A hold can be 4,3 or 2 minutes so you mix them up to make the
time come out right.

A hold can be almost any time you want unless you are assigned a specific
time, and that time applies to the inbound leg, and is not meant to be
precise.

Right, that's how you cause the aircraft to arrive at the fix at the
ETC.


So why do you say to mix up holds having integral minute leg lengths? And
why are holds 4, 3, or 2 minutes?

I don't understand ETC, I assume you mean EFC as you stated in your original
post. It has nothing to do with EFC.

From the Instrument Flying Handbook:

"EFC times require no time adjustment since the purpose for issuance of
these times is to provide for possible loss of two-way radio
communications."


I don't understand the point of telling people that they shouldn't worry
much about holds because you hardly ever have to fly one.

I never said that.



True, you did not explicitly say that. You did say:


"In real life holding is about as common as being hit by lightening.
Even when you do get a hold its usually just a vectored hold, not a
formal procedures."

I don't know your intent with that comment, but it appeared to me to be
implicitly deprecating the importance of holding patterns as a component of
instrument flight and the importance of being proficient in flying them.

Anyway, my experience is certainly different, and "formal" holds are not
uncommon (but not timed approaches).

"BT" wrote in message
...
People do care..

"Stan Prevost" wrote in message
...

A hold can be almost any time you want unless you are assigned a specific
time, and that time applies to the inbound leg, and is not meant to be
precise. A default hold is a one-minute inbound leg, but you can make it
longer or shorter if you want and nobody cares. Don't go to extremes,
and go do five minutes, but within wide limits (depends on your speed),
it just doesn't really matter. There is no specification anywhere that a
hold must be four or three or two minutes or combinations thereof. The
only guidance is a one-minute inbound leg for the default holding
pattern, and staying within the maximum distance specified on the chart,
if any. Of course, on a checkride, you ought to strive for the specified
time for the inbound leg.


People do care about timeing in the holding pattern, time is set to one
minute on the inbound leg, (1.5 min at higher altitudes) to for "protected
airspace", this protected airspace is to protect you from other traffic or
terrain in a non radar enviroment. You can ask for more from ATC. But if
you do not ask, he is expecting you to fly one minute legs (1.5 min
legs).. and not extend your pattern to 20nm on your own whim.


You will notice that I cautioned against extremes and not exceeding maximum
distances. My intent was to illustrate that the leg time is nothing to
obsess over, within reasonable lengths, and that leg lengths are not limited
to integral minutes, and that EFC has nothing to do with it.

If a holding pattern might be flown at anywhere from, say, 60 knots to
possibly over 200 knots, a one minute leg will range from one to over three
miles, not even considering wind. Since it is really distance that matters,
and over three miles is acceptable (unless Cat E is excluded), that would
correspond to over three minutes for the 60 knot airplane. Variation from
one minute or less to over three minutes would be quite large in term of
pilot technique, and would border on extreme, IMO.

Nonwithstanding all that, an instrument pilot should, IMO, be proficient in
being able to adjust leg timing as required (not just mixing up integral
minute legs) to meet a crossing time for a timed approach. It is just that
when prioritizing workload during a normal hold, precise leg timing is not
at top of the list, especially for slower aircraft.

(Can a helicopter hover for a hold in VMC, or must it fly the hold pattern
with specified legs?)