Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC

I fly from KLAX to KLAS, using the FMC to handle most of the flight.
With the routing I put in, the FMC decides on some default altitudes
and includes required altitudes for the arrival and departure
procedures I select. Part of what it does is to create a descent
schedule from the nominal cruise altitude to the arrival procedure.

So I leave KLAX and my last explicit instruction from ATC is "climb
and maintain FL290," which is my programmed and filed cruise altitude.
Now, my question is this: If the FMC has a programmed descent in its
route, do I let the FMC start the descent where it sees fit, or do I
force the aircraft to maintain FL290 until ATC explicitly clears me
for my own navigation or for a lower altitude? And if ATC's last
instruction had simply been "resume own navigation" or "proceed as
filed," would that mean that I'd be free to begin the descent whenever
the FMC (or I) decides it's best?

In situations where I can begin the descent at my discretion (assuming
that own navigation implies this), should I tell ATC that I'm leaving
my cruise altitude? If the FMC has a continuously changing estimate
of lower altitudes in the descent profile, what should I give as my
target altitude? The next fix that has a specific altitude? (Such as
a fix in the arrival procedure)

Climbing I think I understand. If I'm told to resume own navigation,
or cleared as filed in the first place, I climb per my flight plan/FMC
profile. If ATC says maintain X, I stay at X until ATC tells me to
resume own navigation or instructs me to change altitudes. But the
descent part still has me a bit confused.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic wrote:
I fly from KLAX to KLAS, using the FMC to handle most of the flight.
With the routing I put in, the FMC decides on some default altitudes
and includes required altitudes for the arrival and departure
procedures I select. Part of what it does is to create a descent
schedule from the nominal cruise altitude to the arrival procedure.

So I leave KLAX and my last explicit instruction from ATC is "climb
and maintain FL290," which is my programmed and filed cruise altitude.
Now, my question is this: If the FMC has a programmed descent in its
route, do I let the FMC start the descent where it sees fit, or do I
force the aircraft to maintain FL290 until ATC explicitly clears me
for my own navigation or for a lower altitude? And if ATC's last
instruction had simply been "resume own navigation" or "proceed as
filed," would that mean that I'd be free to begin the descent whenever
the FMC (or I) decides it's best?

In situations where I can begin the descent at my discretion (assuming
that own navigation implies this), should I tell ATC that I'm leaving
my cruise altitude? If the FMC has a continuously changing estimate
of lower altitudes in the descent profile, what should I give as my
target altitude? The next fix that has a specific altitude? (Such as
a fix in the arrival procedure)

Climbing I think I understand. If I'm told to resume own navigation,
or cleared as filed in the first place, I climb per my flight plan/FMC
profile. If ATC says maintain X, I stay at X until ATC tells me to
resume own navigation or instructs me to change altitudes. But the
descent part still has me a bit confused.

Are you flying IFR? if so then ATC will tell you what altitude to be at.
Resume own navigation refers to routing not altitude. VFR is a
different set of rules.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Theune ]
Posted At: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 8:49 AM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's
ATC
Subject: Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's
ATC

....
Are you flying IFR? if so then ATC will tell you what altitude to be
at.
Resume own navigation refers to routing not altitude. VFR is a
different set of rules.

He's not flying in the system, but rather he's trying to program his
flight simulator scenarios. This is a case of learning the mechanics
without understanding the system.

MS - why don't you get a copy of the instrument flying handbook or the
TERPS manual, or some other good text and learn the system? Every one of
the questions you've been asking are addressed in those and in the AIM
and FARs. These are the information sources that aspiring pilots use in
their pursuit of knowledge.

i wonder if his simulator's ATC tells him to hang himself he will? (one
can only hope)
John Theune wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote:
I fly from KLAX to KLAS, using the FMC to handle most of the flight.
With the routing I put in, the FMC decides on some default altitudes
and includes required altitudes for the arrival and departure
procedures I select. Part of what it does is to create a descent
schedule from the nominal cruise altitude to the arrival procedure.

So I leave KLAX and my last explicit instruction from ATC is "climb
and maintain FL290," which is my programmed and filed cruise altitude.
Now, my question is this: If the FMC has a programmed descent in its
route, do I let the FMC start the descent where it sees fit, or do I
force the aircraft to maintain FL290 until ATC explicitly clears me
for my own navigation or for a lower altitude? And if ATC's last
instruction had simply been "resume own navigation" or "proceed as
filed," would that mean that I'd be free to begin the descent whenever
the FMC (or I) decides it's best?

In situations where I can begin the descent at my discretion (assuming
that own navigation implies this), should I tell ATC that I'm leaving
my cruise altitude? If the FMC has a continuously changing estimate
of lower altitudes in the descent profile, what should I give as my
target altitude? The next fix that has a specific altitude? (Such as
a fix in the arrival procedure)

Climbing I think I understand. If I'm told to resume own navigation,
or cleared as filed in the first place, I climb per my flight plan/FMC
profile. If ATC says maintain X, I stay at X until ATC tells me to
resume own navigation or instructs me to change altitudes. But the
descent part still has me a bit confused.

Are you flying IFR? if so then ATC will tell you what altitude to be at.
Resume own navigation refers to routing not altitude. VFR is a
different set of rules.

Jim Carter wrote:
MS - why don't you get a copy of the instrument flying handbook or the
TERPS manual, or some other good text and learn the system? Every one of
the questions you've been asking are addressed in those and in the AIM
and FARs. These are the information sources that aspiring pilots use in
their pursuit of knowledge.

Online version of the AIM: http://www.faa.gov/ATPubs/AIM/index.htm

John Theune writes:

Are you flying IFR?

Yes. I've filed a SID, a route, and a STAR, and programmed this into
the FMC as well. The FMC apparently decides when to start the descent
from cruise (if you don't override it), presumably based on the
altitude restrictions it has to respect for the arrival procedure.

if so then ATC will tell you what altitude to be at.
Resume own navigation refers to routing not altitude.

Ah ... is there another phrase that also means altitude is at my
discretion, or is altitude always under the control of ATC? The fact
that the FMC provides for its own descent schedule implies that there
must be situations in IFR where I'm allowed to climb or descend at my
discretion (?).

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Jim Carter writes:

He's not flying in the system, but rather he's trying to program his
flight simulator scenarios. This is a case of learning the mechanics
without understanding the system.

For instrument flight, they work the same way.

MS - why don't you get a copy of the instrument flying handbook or the
TERPS manual, or some other good text and learn the system?

I have the IFR handbook, but it doesn't go into extreme detail for
phraseology, or I've missed it.

Every one of
the questions you've been asking are addressed in those and in the AIM
and FARs. These are the information sources that aspiring pilots use in
their pursuit of knowledge.

So what do you discuss on rec.aviation.ifr?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On Jan 3, 9:21 am, "mad8" wrote:
i wonder if his simulator's ATC tells him to hang himself he will? (one
can only hope)


MS, don't let post like this bother you. ANY interest in aviation is
good. Real pilots are in general one of the most POLITE bunch of people
you'd ever want to meet and hang out with. It's a a close knit
community. A lot of GA pilots like to hang out at the local airports
and do nothing but "hanger flying", i.e. sit around and talk about
aviation (and other topics).

Try it sometime, and join a local chapter of the EAA (experimental
aircraft association). You'll learn a lot more from talking to folks
than from reading posts like Mad's.

Mxsmanic,

I fly from KLAX to KLAS


No, you don't. For the sake of those reading here that haven't
discovered your background, please state clearly that you are playing
MS FS.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Mxsmanic,

The fact
that the FMC provides for its own descent schedule implies that there
must be situations in IFR where I'm allowed to climb or descend at my
discretion


No. That fact implies that the simulation does not simulate real life
well in this respect. You wanted an example, you got one all by
yourself.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)