Heartfelt Thank You

I was approached by a former student at our club's closing banquet. He stated he was so happy to see me because he wanted to thank me in person for saving his life.

He explained: after receiving his license, he bought a Sinus motor glider, and went flying with a recreational pilot as his P2. They were calibrating the AoA instrument, with his friend the PF, by repeatedly stalling it. But it was so benign that the stall just mushed. His friend got aggressive with it, and stall it did, then dropped a wing into a spin. His friend literally threw up his hands, and my former student took control and applied the recovery technique I had taught him, recovering the aircraft.

We use a venerable 2-32 for spin training, and for the student approaching solo, it is a 'come to Jesus' moment; the laminar wing of the 2-32 seems binary, - it is flying or it is not, and the attitude is dramatic. But as the sign at Ridge Soaring gliderport reads, "In an emergency, you don't rise to the occasion; you sink to the level of your training". Read Malcolm Gladwell's excellent book BLINK to understand why.

My club is in Canada, where spin training is on the curriculum. There is I think only one FBO operating in Canada; the rest of the gliding is club based, and the instructors are unpaid volunteers. But this 'Thank You' was rich payment indeed, and worth sharing I think.

Very will done, indeed!

It is my understanding that, currently in the US, the only requirement
for spin training (except for CFI candidates) is recognition and
avoidance of spins. As your story illustrates, a spin can still happen
and, with two untrained pilots at the controls, the outcome is uncertain.

Having learned to fly in the military, I was very much exposed to spins
and thoroughly enjoyed them, even after training.

Dan

On 10/3/2016 7:58 AM, Charlie Papa wrote:
I was approached by a former student at our club's closing banquet. He stated he was so happy to see me because he wanted to thank me in person for saving his life.

He explained: after receiving his license, he bought a Sinus motor glider, and went flying with a recreational pilot as his P2. They were calibrating the AoA instrument, with his friend the PF, by repeatedly stalling it. But it was so benign that the stall just mushed. His friend got aggressive with it, and stall it did, then dropped a wing into a spin. His friend literally threw up his hands, and my former student took control and applied the recovery technique I had taught him, recovering the aircraft.

We use a venerable 2-32 for spin training, and for the student approaching solo, it is a 'come to Jesus' moment; the laminar wing of the 2-32 seems binary, - it is flying or it is not, and the attitude is dramatic. But as the sign at Ridge Soaring gliderport reads, "In an emergency, you don't rise to the occasion; you sink to the level of your training". Read Malcolm Gladwell's excellent book BLINK to understand why.

My club is in Canada, where spin training is on the curriculum. There is I think only one FBO operating in Canada; the rest of the gliding is club based, and the instructors are unpaid volunteers. But this 'Thank You' was rich payment indeed, and worth sharing I think.

--
Dan, 5J

At 22:17 03 October 2016, Dan Marotta wrote:
Very will done, indeed!

It is my understanding that, currently in the US, the only requirement
for spin training (except for CFI candidates) is recognition and
avoidance of spins. As your story illustrates, a spin can still happen
and, with two untrained pilots at the controls, the outcome is uncertain.

Having learned to fly in the military, I was very much exposed to spins
and thoroughly enjoyed them, even after training.

Dan

On 10/3/2016 7:58 AM, Charlie Papa wrote:
I was approached by a former student at our club's closing banquet. He
stated he was so happy to see me because he wanted to thank me in person
for saving his life.

He explained: after receiving his license, he bought a Sinus motor
glider, and went flying with a recreational pilot as his P2. They were
calibrating the AoA instrument, with his friend the PF, by repeatedly
stalling it. But it was so benign that the stall just mushed. His
friend
got aggressive with it, and stall it did, then dropped a wing into a spin.

His friend literally threw up his hands, and my former student took
control
and applied the recovery technique I had taught him, recovering the
aircraft.

We use a venerable 2-32 for spin training, and for the student
approaching solo, it is a 'come to Jesus' moment; the laminar wing of the
2-32 seems binary, - it is flying or it is not, and the attitude is
dramatic. But as the sign at Ridge Soaring gliderport reads, "In an
emergency, you don't rise to the occasion; you sink to the level of your
training". Read Malcolm Gladwell's excellent book BLINK to understand
why.

My club is in Canada, where spin training is on the curriculum. There
is
I think only one FBO operating in Canada; the rest of the gliding is club
based, and the instructors are unpaid volunteers. But this 'Thank You'
was
rich payment indeed, and worth sharing I think.

--
Dan, 5J


I was surprised to learn that actual spin recovery is not practised in
America. During my 50+ years of gliding annd instructing in the UK it has
always been carried out, which seems very sensible to me, as the experience
can be, and obviously has been a life saver.
Not ony actual spin recoveries are carried out, but many years ago the BGA
introduced a series of Further Stalling and Spinning exercises. These are
aimed at stall/spin avoidance, and are intended to show the pupil that "if
you mistreat the glider like this, this is what is likely to happen". Since
their introduction, the number of stall/spin related accidents has
decreased dramatically. Obviously if the glider doesn't stall , it can't
spin.
It has always been somewhat of a mystery to me, why some of the German
two-seater training gliders were designed to be almost unspinable, at least
without modification, yet pupils then go on to fly gliders that do spin.
One reason why I rate the Puchacz as probably the best available training
glider.
There is no substitute for the experience of actually spinning, which for
many people is not the most pleasant thing in gliding, though I did once
have a pupil who said that she enjoyed it, her reason for delaying the
recovery.
One of my most memorable flying experiences was a spin, not in a glider but
in a small aircraft on my instructors course. The National Coach decided to
demonstrate various things to us, including what happened if the rudder was
not centralised after rotation stopped. One second we were spinning far
faster than any glider, the next second we were spinning the other way, and
I don't remember anything in between.
Years later another National Coach showed me that this could happen in a
glider (a Puchacz), but it was not easy to carry out deliberately, and I
found that I failed 3 times out of 4 attempts.

Dave

I seem to recall the story was that more people died during spin
training than from actual spins so the FAA, in its infinite wisdom,
decided to require spin avoidance training rather than spin recovery
training. Of course the slow, untrained person actually getting into a
spin has no chance to recover and has to rely on the aircraft recovering
itself. I was never much of a fan of that.

On 10/4/2016 2:18 AM, David Salmon wrote:
At 22:17 03 October 2016, Dan Marotta wrote:
Very will done, indeed!

It is my understanding that, currently in the US, the only requirement
for spin training (except for CFI candidates) is recognition and
avoidance of spins. As your story illustrates, a spin can still happen
and, with two untrained pilots at the controls, the outcome is uncertain.

Having learned to fly in the military, I was very much exposed to spins
and thoroughly enjoyed them, even after training.

Dan

On 10/3/2016 7:58 AM, Charlie Papa wrote:
I was approached by a former student at our club's closing banquet. He
stated he was so happy to see me because he wanted to thank me in person
for saving his life.
He explained: after receiving his license, he bought a Sinus motor
glider, and went flying with a recreational pilot as his P2. They were
calibrating the AoA instrument, with his friend the PF, by repeatedly
stalling it. But it was so benign that the stall just mushed. His
friend
got aggressive with it, and stall it did, then dropped a wing into a spin.
His friend literally threw up his hands, and my former student took
control
and applied the recovery technique I had taught him, recovering the
aircraft.
We use a venerable 2-32 for spin training, and for the student
approaching solo, it is a 'come to Jesus' moment; the laminar wing of the
2-32 seems binary, - it is flying or it is not, and the attitude is
dramatic. But as the sign at Ridge Soaring gliderport reads, "In an
emergency, you don't rise to the occasion; you sink to the level of your
training". Read Malcolm Gladwell's excellent book BLINK to understand
why.
My club is in Canada, where spin training is on the curriculum. There
is
I think only one FBO operating in Canada; the rest of the gliding is club
based, and the instructors are unpaid volunteers. But this 'Thank You'
was
rich payment indeed, and worth sharing I think.

--
Dan, 5J
I was surprised to learn that actual spin recovery is not practised in
America. During my 50+ years of gliding annd instructing in the UK it has
always been carried out, which seems very sensible to me, as the experience
can be, and obviously has been a life saver.
Not ony actual spin recoveries are carried out, but many years ago the BGA
introduced a series of Further Stalling and Spinning exercises. These are
aimed at stall/spin avoidance, and are intended to show the pupil that "if
you mistreat the glider like this, this is what is likely to happen". Since
their introduction, the number of stall/spin related accidents has
decreased dramatically. Obviously if the glider doesn't stall , it can't
spin.
It has always been somewhat of a mystery to me, why some of the German
two-seater training gliders were designed to be almost unspinable, at least
without modification, yet pupils then go on to fly gliders that do spin.
One reason why I rate the Puchacz as probably the best available training
glider.
There is no substitute for the experience of actually spinning, which for
many people is not the most pleasant thing in gliding, though I did once
have a pupil who said that she enjoyed it, her reason for delaying the
recovery.
One of my most memorable flying experiences was a spin, not in a glider but
in a small aircraft on my instructors course. The National Coach decided to
demonstrate various things to us, including what happened if the rudder was
not centralised after rotation stopped. One second we were spinning far
faster than any glider, the next second we were spinning the other way, and
I don't remember anything in between.
Years later another National Coach showed me that this could happen in a
glider (a Puchacz), but it was not easy to carry out deliberately, and I
found that I failed 3 times out of 4 attempts.

Dave


--
Dan, 5J

A minor correction to Dave -

Our club in the US does, indeed, do both spin avoidance training and actual spin training before solo. We do that in a Puchacz.

Lou - AG

Oh wow! You are an amazing instructor! This is great!

My big question was of the other pilot threw up in his hands? What kind of pilot does that? Is this a joke?

Maybe you can include training for flying with incompetent pilots that vomit while flying.

Fantastic to get the feedback. Congrats to you, and others, that may have saved some "bad statistics" over the years.
Yes, I remember that sign at RS.

I believe it was in this discussion, I have also had students (usually in a 2-33) "throw up their hands" when something odd happened (may even have been because I set it up, or, let them get deep) just to see what they would do when stressed. If they threw their hands up, and we had altitude, I would calmly put my hands on their shoulders and say something like, "It's still your airplane, start doing pilot stuff".

A couple times I had to fly it out, then we had a long ground discussion.

I always let them know, I would "let them get in over their head, never let them get over MY head".
Goal was not to scare them, but to push their limits a bit at a time in a sorta controlled environment.

Congrats again!

As I've discussed in a nearby thread, I'm a kinda-sorta n00b at this, having soloed in a 2-33 40-some years ago and then getting away from it for 40 years, until just recently. Back in those days, we DID spin training (in the 2-33), and I'm glad of it! I intend to insist upon it again when I reach the stage in my re-training that seems right, but it's questionable whether spin training will be made available to me now, even if I want it.

My club has no gliders in which intentional spins are permitted -- not even our Grob 103 Acro -- but some nearby commercial FBO's have 2-32's and ASK-21's to play with (Hollister, Williams, Crazy Creek), and they've made it clear to me that they'd love to have my business.

Originally Posted by Charlie Papa[_2_]

We use a venerable 2-32 for spin training, and for the student approaching solo, it is a 'come to Jesus' moment; the laminar wing of the 2-32 seems binary, - it is flying or it is not, and the attitude is dramatic.

One of my life's fantasies, which may yet come true, is to fly the venerable 2-32. Here is a video I really like, showing an instructor giving his 16-year-old son (or grandson?) spin training in the 2-32 at Crazy Creek (beautiful scenery!) which is between Middletown, Ca., and Clear Lake. Towards the end, as his reward for doing well I think, they do a full loop. That's another of my life's fantasies!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV7Vx50qAl4
Thirty-or-forty-some years ago, I went for a commercial touristy glider ride or two when they were still doing that at Calistoga, in what was very probably that very same 2-32.

Originally Posted by Dan Marotta

I seem to recall the story was that more people died during spin training than from actual spins so the FAA, in its infinite wisdom, decided to require spin avoidance training rather than spin recovery training. Of course the slow, untrained person actually getting into a spin has no chance to recover and has to rely on the aircraft recovering itself. I was never much of a fan of that.

Yes, that's the story I've heard too. Note, OTOH, the many stories of pilots (even experienced ones, in both power and gliders) spinning when turning final and going splat. So certainly avoidance training is important, but I agree that full spin recovery matters too. If nothing else, that kind of thing embiggens the student pilot's skill and confidence in making your aircraft do exactly what you want it to do, and that matters bigly.

Originally Posted by Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)

I always let them know, I would "let them get in over their head, never let them get over MY head". Goal was not to scare them, but to push their limits a bit at a time in a sorta controlled environment.

One of my instructors does just this, and I am glad he does. TBH, I tend to be a bit timid about pushing the limits of my comfort zone (e.g., steep turns), so I really need that, and he does it. Besides, I need that adrenaline hit!

Originally Posted by David Salmon[_3_]

There is no substitute for the experience of actually spinning, which for many people is not the most pleasant thing in gliding, though I did once have a pupil who said that she enjoyed it, her reason for delaying the recovery.

There's that too. It can be a kick. When I did my (limited) spin training back in 1975, we went out over San Francisco Bay to do it. We did two full turns before recovering, the explicit purpose being to demonstrate that spins aren't scary and no reason to panic, and to avoid getting disoriented by looking out into the mid-distance. The instructor had me call out the names of the various bay-shore cities as they went wheeling past -- There's Palo Alto. There's Mountain View / Santa Clara. There's San Jose. There's Milpitas. There's Fremont, etc. It was like combining spin recovery training with a leisurely sight-seeing tour.

Originally Posted by Dan Marotta

It is my understanding that, currently in the US, the only requirement for spin training (except for CFI candidates) is recognition and avoidance of spins. As your story illustrates, a spin can still happen and, with two untrained pilots at the controls, the outcome is uncertain.

This brings me to my main reason for making this post: I want to ask about that. What is the FAA's real stance on this? I keep hearing various stories: Some are saying that FAA no longer requires, or no longer recommends spin training, others tell me that it's absolutely FORBIDDEN for PPG students! Can this be true? Or is it at the school's, or instructor's discretion?

-- J. J.
==========================

AOPA has a good article called: Stall/spin: Entry point for crash and burn?
Available he https://www.aopa.org/asf/ntsb/stall_spin.html
In 1949 the FAA removed the requirement for spin training for private pilots, substituting increased training in stall recognition and recovery, since spins cannot occur without a stall. After the elimination of the spin requirement for private pilots, the incidence of stall/spin accidents actually decreased substantially.
In reviewing 44 fatal stall/spin accidents from 1991 - 2000 and classified as instructional, the Air Safety Foundation found that a shocking 91%(40) of them occurred during dual instruction, with only 9% (4) solo training flights.
The biggest problem is where stall/spin accidents occur. Up high, time to recover. In the pattern, no.

Originally Posted by Keith M

AOPA has a good article called: Stall/spin: Entry point for crash and burn?
Available he https://www.aopa.org/asf/ntsb/stall_spin.html
In 1949 the FAA removed the requirement for spin training for private pilots, substituting increased training in stall recognition and recovery, since spins cannot occur without a stall. After the elimination of the spin requirement for private pilots, the incidence of stall/spin accidents actually decreased substantially.
In reviewing 44 fatal stall/spin accidents from 1991 - 2000 and classified as instructional, the Air Safety Foundation found that a shocking 91%(40) of them occurred during dual instruction, with only 9% (4) solo training flights.
The biggest problem is where stall/spin accidents occur. Up high, time to recover. In the pattern, no.

So we really need to spend more time training and practicing stalls and spins in the pattern, right? What could go wrong?

Srsly, if spin training at altitude isn't really much the cause of accidents, then why did eliminating that do much to reduce the number of such accidents? Presumably, it's the increased emphasis on incipient recognition/recovery that did that, but I recall doing that when I took some power lessons 45 years ago too, and in glider lessons 40 years ago.

-- J. J.
====================