Can an instructor do this?

On 6 Sep 2003 17:55:47 -0700, (Doug) wrote:

Client is an instrument rated pilot with his own tailwheel, instrument
equipped airplane. Client is current on tailwheel, but lacks currency
in IFR.

Instructor is CFII and current, but lacks a tailwheel endorsement.

Client wants to take off in VFR, and open an IFR flight plan (on the
instructors qualifications), and fly the IFR flight plan.

Can the instructor file an IFR flight plan and open it in the air
(after takeoff) fly the IFR flight plan and cancel IFR before landing
with the agreement that the client is PIC for takeoff and landing?

It seems to me that the question is "is it necessary to be acting as
PIC in order to open and accept an IFR clearance?" because the CFII
cannot act as PIC in a tailwheel aircraft, yet he does have "catagory
and class" ratings necessary to accept an IFR clearance. But I will
have to admit, I really don't know.

I'll stick my head out and say NO ... because:

Someone has to be PIC.
In instrument conditions, the PIC must have an instrument rating.
To be PIC in a tailwheel a/c, one must have a tailwheel endorsement.

Neither pilot in the above scenario meets the requirements.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

My take has always been no... Unfortunately, the FAA doesn't
seem to understand that once the wheels leave the ground, a
tailwheel plane is just an airplane!!!! Ran into this a few years back
on a trip to Sun & Fun in a friends Maule before I got my TW
endorsement... Already had my IFR rating, but the owner
didn't...

John Price
CFII/AGI/IGI
http://home.att.net/~jm.price



"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On 6 Sep 2003 17:55:47 -0700, (Doug) wrote:

Client is an instrument rated pilot with his own tailwheel, instrument
equipped airplane. Client is current on tailwheel, but lacks currency
in IFR.

Instructor is CFII and current, but lacks a tailwheel endorsement.

Client wants to take off in VFR, and open an IFR flight plan (on the
instructors qualifications), and fly the IFR flight plan.

Can the instructor file an IFR flight plan and open it in the air
(after takeoff) fly the IFR flight plan and cancel IFR before landing
with the agreement that the client is PIC for takeoff and landing?

It seems to me that the question is "is it necessary to be acting as
PIC in order to open and accept an IFR clearance?" because the CFII
cannot act as PIC in a tailwheel aircraft, yet he does have "catagory
and class" ratings necessary to accept an IFR clearance. But I will
have to admit, I really don't know.

I'll stick my head out and say NO ... because:

Someone has to be PIC.
In instrument conditions, the PIC must have an instrument rating.
To be PIC in a tailwheel a/c, one must have a tailwheel endorsement.

Neither pilot in the above scenario meets the requirements.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Does the concept of "P1S" (Pilot in command under supervision) not
exist in the US? When operating thus, the client would be PIC under
supervision, but the captain would be the instructor/examiner.

In europe, for example, when you take your PPL flight test, it is
taken as P1S. If you pass, it counts as PIC time, and if you do not
pass, it is simply P/UT (Pilot Under Tuition) time.

Leland





On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 11:21:54 GMT, "john price"
wrote:

My take has always been no... Unfortunately, the FAA doesn't
seem to understand that once the wheels leave the ground, a
tailwheel plane is just an airplane!!!! Ran into this a few years back
on a trip to Sun & Fun in a friends Maule before I got my TW
endorsement... Already had my IFR rating, but the owner
didn't...

John Price
CFII/AGI/IGI
http://home.att.net/~jm.price



"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
.. .
On 6 Sep 2003 17:55:47 -0700, (Doug) wrote:

Client is an instrument rated pilot with his own tailwheel, instrument
equipped airplane. Client is current on tailwheel, but lacks currency
in IFR.

Instructor is CFII and current, but lacks a tailwheel endorsement.

Client wants to take off in VFR, and open an IFR flight plan (on the
instructors qualifications), and fly the IFR flight plan.

Can the instructor file an IFR flight plan and open it in the air
(after takeoff) fly the IFR flight plan and cancel IFR before landing
with the agreement that the client is PIC for takeoff and landing?

It seems to me that the question is "is it necessary to be acting as
PIC in order to open and accept an IFR clearance?" because the CFII
cannot act as PIC in a tailwheel aircraft, yet he does have "catagory
and class" ratings necessary to accept an IFR clearance. But I will
have to admit, I really don't know.

I'll stick my head out and say NO ... because:

Someone has to be PIC.
In instrument conditions, the PIC must have an instrument rating.
To be PIC in a tailwheel a/c, one must have a tailwheel endorsement.

Neither pilot in the above scenario meets the requirements.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Leland Vandervort" wrote in message
...

Does the concept of "P1S" (Pilot in command under supervision) not
exist in the US? When operating thus, the client would be PIC under
supervision, but the captain would be the instructor/examiner.

Not as described above.

You can be PIC while receiving instruction, but you have to meet the
requirements for PIC. If you don't, then the instructor must be PIC and
meet the requirements for that. An odd quirk is that you can log PIC
while the instructor is PIC, but that's not material here.

In europe, for example, when you take your PPL flight test, it is
taken as P1S. If you pass, it counts as PIC time, and if you do not
pass, it is simply P/UT (Pilot Under Tuition) time.

In the US there is special dispensation given to student pilots to allow
them to be PIC on their flight tests. Actually, there is no strict requirement
that the examinee be PIC on flight tests either.

The answer here is a resounding no.

From 14CFR61.31(i) ... no person may act as pilot in command of a
tailwheel airplane unless that person has ... received an endorsement
in the person's logbook from an authorized instructor who found the
person proficient in the operation of a tailwheel airplane.

Note that this is not limited to takeoff and landing. Therefore, the
CFII who lacks a tailwheel endorsement may not serve as PIC in a
tailwheel airplane at all. The student, who lacks an instrument
rating, may not serve as PIC under IFR.

As a practical matter, this would work fine until the day the weather
was really bad. When ceilings are low (say less than 500 ft) and
visibilities are bad (less than 2 miles) it often becomes necessary or
highly desirable to land with a quartering tailwind, on wet pavement,
with insufficient visibility for precise aircraft control without
reference to instruments, or all the above. In such conditions, one
really needs instrument experience AND tailwheel experience to
successfully make the transition from instrument flight to visual
flight and a safe landing. The process is not inherently different
for a tailwheel airplane than it is for a tri-gear airplane, but there
are things you can get by with in a trike that will put you in the
weeds (or worse) in a taildragger.

Michael

(Doug) wrote
Client is an instrument rated pilot with his own tailwheel, instrument
equipped airplane. Client is current on tailwheel, but lacks currency
in IFR.

Instructor is CFII and current, but lacks a tailwheel endorsement.

Client wants to take off in VFR, and open an IFR flight plan (on the
instructors qualifications), and fly the IFR flight plan.

Can the instructor file an IFR flight plan and open it in the air
(after takeoff) fly the IFR flight plan and cancel IFR before landing
with the agreement that the client is PIC for takeoff and landing?

It seems to me that the question is "is it necessary to be acting as
PIC in order to open and accept an IFR clearance?" because the CFII
cannot act as PIC in a tailwheel aircraft, yet he does have "catagory
and class" ratings necessary to accept an IFR clearance. But I will
have to admit, I really don't know.