Considerations for joining flying club

I'm considering joining a flying club this week. This one's the closest
club to where I live, the members, the planes, and the online scheduling
system seem to be great, and I think I'm ready to make the commitment (e.g.,
buy a share in the fleet).

Since I've never joined a club before (have always rented from the FBO where
I trained), I wanted to solicit tips or important questions to ask before
paying the application fee (e.g. based on hindsight of those now in clubs)??

Thanks for any/all useful advice!

Also, links to "backgrounder" articles about flying clubs, their typical
organizational and accounting structure or the like will also be
appreciated...

Get full disclosure on all of the club's financial issues at the moment.
The club that I joined was being sued by a former employee who had been
injured at work. That much I knew before I joined. What I did not know was
that the sitting president had neglected to pay the bill for the worker's
compensation insurance, and that the club would have to fund this issue all
on its own. I also did not know that the club had stopped paying rent on
its hangar for more than a year before I signed up. I also did not know
that the "refundable" deposit that all new members payed to join was getting
sent right out the door to pay the back rent on said hangar.

Now that I'm in, and have already paid these "fees", and "deposits", and a
few other "assessments", I feel compelled to make a go of things and am even
on the board. We are trying to clean things up as much as we can, since all
of us will lose money if we let the club fail. But I do dearly wish that I
had known these things before I signed up.

The best advice is to talk to people who have been there a while, but who
are not involved in the day-to-day running of the club. Ask them how things
are going. If you can, track down some people who have recently left the
club.


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On 9/13/04 5:48 PM, Geoffrey Barnes wrote the following:
Get full disclosure on all of the club's financial issues at the moment.
snip
All that he said, plus get and read the bylaws. Get and read the
insurance policy or policies. Get and read the tax return. Make sure
you understand what is required of you currency, dues, assessments,
etc. Find out how frequently the club has made assessments in the past.

Understand the reality of selling your membership: Club sells it? you
sell it? what price? what is the average marketing period? etc.

Clubs are a great thing but you are entering into a significant legal
relationship and need to know the details of it.

"Marty Ross" wrote
Thanks for any/all useful advice!

Get all the rules up front, and find out what it takes to have new
rules made. My experience with clubs has been that the people who
have the pathological need to make rules always seem to find their way
into club positions where they can. The result is that when you want
to do something fun and challenging, you find it's against club rules.

This does not always happen - some clubs seem to be immune - so find
out what kind you are dealing with before you drop the dollars.

Michael

Michael wrote:

The result is that when you want
to do something fun and challenging, you find it's against club rules.

Can you provide an example of something fun and challenging that is against
some club's rule? That seems rather against the idea of a club (as opposed
to an FBO).

I'm trying to picture this. For example, I do know that at least one of the
FBOs where I've previously rented prohibited landing on grass. But the
club to which I belong merely requires a "grass field checkout".

What else?

Still, it is also a good idea to check out all of the rules. Pay special
attention to insurance. That is, are members covered or is just the club.
Is there a deductable for which a member would be responsible, and how is
that responsibility determined?

Are there any currency requirements beyond that of the FAA? We do have some
in our club, but (not too surprisingly) these are largely dictated by
insurance.

- Andrew

Andrew Gideon wrote:

Michael wrote:

The result is that when you want
to do something fun and challenging, you find it's against club rules.

Can you provide an example of something fun and challenging that is against
some club's rule? That seems rather against the idea of a club (as opposed
to an FBO).

In general, I would expect a club to have less restrictive rules than an
FBO, but they'll still have rules. Nobody wants other club members to
be reckless with the airplanes, and it is inevitable that within any
group of people, there will be different opinions on where "fun and
challenging" leaves off and "reckless" begins.

I'm trying to picture this. For example, I do know that at least one of the
FBOs where I've previously rented prohibited landing on grass. But the
club to which I belong merely requires a "grass field checkout".

My club used to have no rule about grass at all. A few years back,
somebody brought our Arrow back covered with grass stains. A discussion
ensued, and we ended up passing a rule forbidding landing any of our
retracts on a non-paved runway. Oddly enough, we don't require any
special checkout for grass.

Most rules come about because at one time in the past, somebody did
something which other people considered unacceptable and they wanted to
try and prevent it from happening again. Congress does this, the FAA
does this, FBO's do it, and there's no reason to be surprised when clubs
do it too. It's the way life works.

I would certainly urge anybody who is thinking of joining a club to read
all the rules carefully before joining. If they forbid or regulate
something you want to do, you'll either have to forgo your particular
desire, or find another club. But a lot better to know the score up
front than to get a nasty phone call from the club president informing
you that you've broken the rules after the fact.

Roy Smith wrote:

My club used to have no rule about grass at all. A few years back,
somebody brought our Arrow back covered with grass stains. A discussion
ensued, and we ended up passing a rule forbidding landing any of our
retracts on a non-paved runway. Oddly enough, we don't require any
special checkout for grass.

That's right, I forgot: only the 172s can be landed on grass, and only if
there are no wheel-pants in place.

I would certainly urge anybody who is thinking of joining a club to read
all the rules carefully before joining. If they forbid or regulate
something you want to do, you'll either have to forgo your particular
desire, or find another club.

Well...

I want to do aerobatics, but none of the club planes can. So I go beyond
the club's airplanes for this...and a number of us in the club do so.

But I know what you mean, and you are right. I'm just trying to get a
picture of what some of these things might be. They might give me some new
ideas grin.

- Andrew

Andrew Gideon wrote:
I'm just trying to get a picture of what some of these things might
be. They might give me some new ideas grin.

Well, common rules various clubs impose on their members include:

Restrictions on non-paved runways.
Minimum runway lengths.
Per-type (or even per-airplane) checkouts.
Instrument checkouts.
Night checkouts.
Prohibition of acrobatics.
Prohibition of formation flight.
Recurrent training or checkouts.
Stricter-than-FAA currency requirements.
Scheduling quotas.
Restrictions on flying from the right seat.
Restrictions on which instructors you can use.
Requirements to participate in club activities.
Prohibition against smoking in the airplanes.
Requirements to maintain your own insurance.

There's no way to know which particular bugs a particular club has up
their collective butt without reading the rules before you hand over
your check.

It's probably universal that flying clubs prohibit the use of their
aircraft for commercial or for-hire operation.

Roy Smith wrote
In general, I would expect a club to have less restrictive rules than an
FBO

Let's just say this has not been my experience. Maybe that's why
there are not many clubs in my area (and none on my field). I think
clubs tend to form when the local FBO's get obnoxious.

Nobody wants other club members to
be reckless with the airplanes, and it is inevitable that within any
group of people, there will be different opinions on where "fun and
challenging" leaves off and "reckless" begins.

Of course the ones who think it's reckless are wrong

I'm actually about 99% serious about this. 99% of the time, when
someone says "that's reckless" what he really means is "I couldn't
pull this off consistently AND I don't want you to do it."

Here's what makes a club worse. At an FBO, one guy is boss. He has
his hot buttons, and those become rules. At a club, these things are
done by committee. There is compromise. Unfortunately, the
compromise usually turns out to be "I'll vote for your hot-button
rules if you vote for mine." That's how formation flights,
acrobatics, and such get banned.

You would think that there would be a healthy push back from the
people who don't like making rules, but they're usually not there at
the board meeting. They're too busy flying formation, doing acro,
etc.

My club used to have no rule about grass at all. A few years back,
somebody brought our Arrow back covered with grass stains. A discussion
ensued, and we ended up passing a rule forbidding landing any of our
retracts on a non-paved runway. Oddly enough, we don't require any
special checkout for grass.

See, this is exactly the kind of crap I'm talking about. Grass
stains? My god - do you really think tall grass is rougher on the
airplane than concrete dust? I pretty routinely operate my Twin
Comanche off grass. I know guys who base Barons and C-310's off
grass. An Arrow on grass is a non-event.

On the other hand, there ARE things to know about landing on grass.
Most of it has nothing to do with the actual takeoff and landing - dry
grass in good condition requires no special technique. But there is a
lot to know about asessing the quality of a grass surface before you
land on it, deciding when to abort a takeoff, etc. Given how pathetic
the FAA requirements are in this area, a special checkout would make
sense. Preferably from someone who has plenty of experience landing
fast, heavy, retractable gear airplanes on unpaved strips.

Most rules come about because at one time in the past, somebody did
something which other people considered unacceptable and they wanted to
try and prevent it from happening again. Congress does this, the FAA
does this, FBO's do it, and there's no reason to be surprised when clubs
do it too. It's the way life works.

Yup. Only at an FBO, it has to be something the owner found
unacceptable. The FAA is slow and bureaucratic - one incident is
rarely enough to make anything happen. Ditto Congress. Clubs,
unfortunately, tend to combine the worst of all worlds.

I would certainly urge anybody who is thinking of joining a club to read
all the rules carefully before joining.

As well as find out how difficult it is to make rules, and what people
in the club do. For example, if people routinely fly formation, it's
not likely that it will be forbidden. On the other hand, if you do it
and start doing it, the club weenies may well decide to forbid it - or
to make everyone get FAST cards, which is about the same.

Michael

In article , Michael wrote:
As well as find out how difficult it is to make rules, and what people
in the club do.

This probably explains the lack of silly rules in the BAAC - a change to
the bylaws required a vote *by the whole membership*, not just the
board.
The other thing about the club is it didn't own the aircraft (and
therefore the initiation fee and membership dues were very low), it
leased them back (the owner set the dry rate and organized maintenance -
the club didn't skim a single penny off the owner's rate so it was
perfectly possible for an owner to make their plane pay, but our rates
still be $10/hr cheaper than the FBO on the field). Occasionally, owners
would have some stipulations about their aircraft, but generally these
were checkout requirements (such as the Bonanza owner wanted 5 hours in
type - additionally, the insurance required you have 10 hours in type
before taking passengers, and the owner was quite happy for you to go
from 5-10 hours solo).

Overall, I think this structure of club worked well. We only kicked one
member out in the 20 years the club has been around.

The whole 3000' runway is asinine whether it comes from an FBO or a
club, especially applied to planes like C172s which can be landed and
stopped *with no short field techniques at all* and without even using
the brakes in half that distance. Any newly minted PPL should be able to
land and stop on a 3000' runway in a C172 or Cherokee without using the
brakes. It's a good job that clubs etc. don't try that rule here as most
GA fields in the British Isles are grass and under 3000'!

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"