How to get the most from VFR XC's for IFR requirements?

Hi all,

I've begun my IFR taining and at the same time, racking up the cross
country hours required for the ticket.

I'm wondering what things I could do in these strictly VFR XC's that would
help me learn/gain insight or facility with the IFR world. So far I have:

1) My CFII suggested I plan routes that VOR hop

2) Another CFII suggested I take along IFR enroute charts and look them over
while enroute

3) it occured to me to select alternates and plan fuel reserves as if this
was IMC.

Are there any other things that could be done during a strictly VFR XC that
would help?

thanks

Gregg

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:56:34 GMT, gregg wrote:

Are there any other things that could be done during a strictly VFR XC that
would help?


Get really good at being able to fly without any radio aids.

Picture yourself on a nice IFR flight where ceilings are about 2000
OVC and 3 to 5 miles in mist and haze. Great for a low time IFR
pilot. You're flying along in the soup "fat, dumb, and happy," when
you notice an electrical problem. Over the course of the next 10
minutes you lose everything. No navs, no comms, hand held GPS decides
to crap out too. You know the terrain below you is under 1000 MSL and
fairly flat so you chose to feel your way to the base of the clouds.
All of this takes place without anymore undue stress than you're
already under. Now, clear of clouds, you take out your sectional (you
do carry sectionals when flying IFR don't you?) and need to navigate
to a suitable landing facility. Completely stressed and under a low
deck, without any navigational aides, can you get to an airport 30
miles away and know where you are while doing it? Or is getting to
the destination harder than handling the emergency in the soup?

Having written the above example off the top of my head, there may be
some holes in it you could pick apart. My intent is that someday you
could be left with only your VFR skills and a map to bail you out of a
jam and you need those basic skills to be ingrained in you enough that
you can do them while under more stress than will ever be placed on
you in a training environment.

The regs call for added VFR cross country time for a reason. You need
to be extremely proficient in these skills. If the law makers wanted
to increase your instrument skills for this requirement, they would
have made the reg pertain to IFR cross countries, not VFR cross
countries.

Bottom line, I'd say do your cross countries with the radios off. Use
your finger and a map, and make some flights to hard to find grass
strips if possible. Your IFR training will do enough for you to
function well in the Instrument environment, its up to you to ensure
your other skills are up to snuff.

Sorry for the book.
z

zatatime wrote:

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:56:34 GMT, gregg wrote:

Are there any other things that could be done during a strictly VFR XC
that
would help?


Get really good at being able to fly without any radio aids.

good stuff snipped

Bottom line, I'd say do your cross countries with the radios off. Use
your finger and a map, and make some flights to hard to find grass
strips if possible. Your IFR training will do enough for you to
function well in the Instrument environment, its up to you to ensure
your other skills are up to snuff.

Sorry for the book.


Book is fine, z thanks.

Right now my VFR XC flying is 60-40 pilotage-radio. I'm good at radial
intercepts, using the VOR to figure drift, get to my destination. Quie
comfy with most VOR work but I'm not happy, at this time, unless I know
where I am by landmark/sectional. And that's how I get from A to B -
pilotage.

In thinking this over, it occured to me that I could probably improve a lot
on DR. Also, using DME - the 152's I got my PPL in weren't equiped with
those. I've done some sim time with them but I could use more.

thanks for the good ideas.

Gregg

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:20:41 GMT, gregg wrote:


Book is fine, z thanks.

Right now my VFR XC flying is 60-40 pilotage-radio. I'm good at radial
intercepts, using the VOR to figure drift, get to my destination. Quie
comfy with most VOR work but I'm not happy, at this time, unless I know
where I am by landmark/sectional. And that's how I get from A to B -
pilotage.

In thinking this over, it occured to me that I could probably improve a lot
on DR. Also, using DME - the 152's I got my PPL in weren't equiped with
those. I've done some sim time with them but I could use more.

thanks for the good ideas.

Gregg


Your welcome. I'm glad you see the real world value in it. At 60-40
I'd say you're like many pilot's out there. I'm a purist and would
say to shoot for 100% w/o radios, but the realist in me says if you
can get to 90-10, you'll be in good shape.

In reading your other responses it also sounds like you've got a good
plan as to how to build your time. The trips you have planned will
give you flights over varied terrain which you should learn alot from.

Good Luck!

z

gregg wrote:
Hi all,

I've begun my IFR taining and at the same time, racking up the cross
country hours required for the ticket.

I'm wondering what things I could do in these strictly VFR XC's that would
help me learn/gain insight or facility with the IFR world. So far I have:

1) My CFII suggested I plan routes that VOR hop

2) Another CFII suggested I take along IFR enroute charts and look them over
while enroute

3) it occured to me to select alternates and plan fuel reserves as if this
was IMC.

Are there any other things that could be done during a strictly VFR XC that
would help?

Early in your IFR training, the most important flying skill you can
develop is what's known as BAI: Basic Attitude Instruments. This is
the ability to hold heading and altitude on instruments without even
thinking about it (so you have your full brainpower left to think
about things like navigation and procedures). So, find a safety pilot
(a fellow instrument student would be a perfect choice) and bring them
along so you can get some hood time.

Practice holding heading and altitude exactly. See if you can go 10
minutes without deviating 5 degrees in heading or 50 feet in altitude.
Practice rolling out of turns exactly on your target heading, and
stopping climbs and descents exactly on your target altitude.
Practice making turns at exactly standard rate.

Experiment to find what power setting and pitch attitude will give you
a 500 fpm descent at 90 kts. This is what you will be flying an ILS
at in many common trainers (172 or Archer, for example). Talk to your
instructor to make sure he agrees with 90 kts for an ILS; if not, find
out what speed he/she recommends, work out the descent rate to track a
3 degree glideslope, and then figure out what power setting and pitch
attitude gets you that.

If you are not comfortable talking to ATC, get as much ATC exposure as
you can. Plan all your trips to towered airports. Get flight
following. Talk to FSS to get weather updates and give them pireps.

Practice tracking VOR radials and identifying VOR cross-fixes. Give
yourself radial interception problems to practice.

Most of the above you can really do on your own without an instructor
(but with a safety pilot!) Once you can hold (and change) heading and
altitude precisely while reading a chart and talking to ATC, you've
got half the battle won. Everything builds on that.

Roy Smith wrote:


Early in your IFR training, the most important flying skill you can
develop is what's known as BAI: Basic Attitude Instruments. This is
the ability to hold heading and altitude on instruments without even
thinking about it (so you have your full brainpower left to think
about things like navigation and procedures). So, find a safety pilot
(a fellow instrument student would be a perfect choice) and bring them
along so you can get some hood time.

Practice holding heading and altitude exactly. See if you can go 10
minutes without deviating 5 degrees in heading or 50 feet in altitude.
Practice rolling out of turns exactly on your target heading, and
stopping climbs and descents exactly on your target altitude.
Practice making turns at exactly standard rate.

Good ideas but I think I might prefer to do this locally and not while on
an XC. for XC's I'd like to do better with DR - pilotage and VOR work is
good.


Experiment to find what power setting and pitch attitude will give you
a 500 fpm descent at 90 kts. This is what you will be flying an ILS
at in many common trainers (172 or Archer, for example). Talk to your
instructor to make sure he agrees with 90 kts for an ILS; if not, find
out what speed he/she recommends, work out the descent rate to track a
3 degree glideslope, and then figure out what power setting and pitch
attitude gets you that.

Good idea though I think I'd rather do that locally and not on XC's.


If you are not comfortable talking to ATC, get as much ATC exposure as
you can. Plan all your trips to towered airports. Get flight
following. Talk to FSS to get weather updates and give them pireps.

Comfy with ATC and FSS. I fly out of a Class D near Boston - under part of
the Boston Class B layer.


Practice tracking VOR radials and identifying VOR cross-fixes. Give
yourself radial interception problems to practice.

Do pretty good at these. though my PPL work in a 152 didn't have DME - I
could practice with that now that I fly a Warrior

Most of the above you can really do on your own without an instructor
(but with a safety pilot!) Once you can hold (and change) heading and
altitude precisely while reading a chart and talking to ATC, you've
got half the battle won. Everything builds on that.

Good ideas, thanks

Gregg

gregg wrote:

Practice holding heading and altitude exactly. See if you can go 10
minutes without deviating 5 degrees in heading or 50 feet in altitude.
Practice rolling out of turns exactly on your target heading, and
stopping climbs and descents exactly on your target altitude.
Practice making turns at exactly standard rate.

Good ideas but I think I might prefer to do this locally and not while on
an XC.

That's fine. Your safety pilot can play ATC and give you heading and
altitude changes.

[...]
If you are not comfortable talking to ATC, get as much ATC exposure as
you can. Plan all your trips to towered airports. Get flight
following. Talk to FSS to get weather updates and give them pireps.

Comfy with ATC and FSS. I fly out of a Class D near Boston - under part
of
the Boston Class B layer.

That's good. I know people trained in a similar situation under the Newark
class B that are not too comfortable with ATC.

- Andrew

Andrew Gideon wrote:
That's good. I know people trained in a similar situation under the Newark
class B that are not too comfortable with ATC.

There is no "Newark Class B". It's the "New York Class B", and don't
you forget it :-)

Roy Smith wrote:

Andrew Gideon wrote:
That's good. I know people trained in a similar situation under the
Newark class B that are not too comfortable with ATC.

There is no "Newark Class B". It's the "New York Class B", and don't
you forget it :-)

I expect your confusion stems from that funny accent used on the other side
of the Hudson.

Laugh

- Andrew

On 21 Dec 2004 17:42:36 -0500, (Roy Smith) wrote:

So, find a safety pilot
(a fellow instrument student would be a perfect choice) and bring them
along so you can get some hood time.


I didn't look up the reg, but would think even if it doesn't violate
the letter of the law, doing your VFR cross countries under the hood
would violate the intent of the law.

What VFR skills are honed under the hood?

z