A logging question

Hi all. I've been reading this group for a while, but this is my first
post here.

I have a US PPL, and I travel to Montreal frequently on business. I went
over to the Montreal Flying Club at St. Hubert last week to see about
flying in Canada. Evidently, under reciprocal agreements, I can easily
get a Canadian license. Basically all I need are a Canadian medical and
a short written test.

While I was there, I made a short flight up the St. Lawrence with one of
their instructors. I did all the flying, but I have logged it as dual,
but of course the tail number is a "C-....". The question is, what are
the rules regarding the time logged under a foreign license? Can it be
applied for requirements for advanced ratings on the US side? Or does
time in a "C-...." only apply for Canadian ratings?

Also, if I were to get a Canadian license, then a seaplane rating on it,
for example, would the seaplane rating apply for my US license? Can I
get both upgraded at the same time?

By the way, if you are ever in Montreal, I can highly recommend a stop
by the Montreal Flying Club at St. Hubert airport on the south shore.
Very nice folks and very well maintained aircraft. Also a very nice
little airport.

Regards,
Austin

Austin Gosling wrote:
While I was there, I made a short flight up the St. Lawrence with one of
their instructors. I did all the flying, but I have logged it as dual,
but of course the tail number is a "C-....". The question is, what are
the rules regarding the time logged under a foreign license? Can it be
applied for requirements for advanced ratings on the US side? Or does
time in a "C-...." only apply for Canadian ratings?

As I see it, the FARs do not specifically disqualify time on a foreign
license for the purpose of ratings; however, time you list for such must
be made with an "authorized instructor", which means someone that holds
a CFI here in the US. Check the Canadian equivalent rules/regs for any
specific references.

However, I believe FAR 91.75 (c) states that ratings earned on a foreign
license may be placed on your US license (while not specifying if
testing is necessary; only in reference "additional ratings"). So, if
you earn a rating on a Canadian PPL, it should be applicable over here
as well.

--

Was all the time logged in Canadian airspace? If so, it may fall under
that jurisdiction exclusively instead, and apply as time earned on a
foreign (student) license (which can be readily applied in the US).

TheSmokingGnu

TheSmokingGnu wrote:
Austin Gosling wrote:
While I was there, I made a short flight up the St. Lawrence with one
of their instructors. I did all the flying, but I have logged it as
dual, but of course the tail number is a "C-....". The question is,
what are the rules regarding the time logged under a foreign license?
Can it be applied for requirements for advanced ratings on the US
side? Or does time in a "C-...." only apply for Canadian ratings?

As I see it, the FARs do not specifically disqualify time on a foreign
license for the purpose of ratings; however, time you list for such must
be made with an "authorized instructor", which means someone that holds
a CFI here in the US. Check the Canadian equivalent rules/regs for any
specific references.

However, I believe FAR 91.75 (c) states that ratings earned on a foreign
license may be placed on your US license (while not specifying if
testing is necessary; only in reference "additional ratings"). So, if
you earn a rating on a Canadian PPL, it should be applicable over here
as well.

--

Was all the time logged in Canadian airspace? If so, it may fall under
that jurisdiction exclusively instead, and apply as time earned on a
foreign (student) license (which can be readily applied in the US).

TheSmokingGnu

Thanks for the info and the reference to the FAR which I should have
looked up myself!.

It was all in Canadian airspace. I guess I should have said "... a short
flight _down_ the St. Lawrence ..."

Austin Gosling wrote:
Thanks for the info and the reference to the FAR which I should have
looked up myself!.

Argh, should be 61.75, not part 91.

The dangers of citing aviation law at 1 in the morning!

TheSmokingGnu

"TheSmokingGnu" wrote in message
...
However, I believe FAR 91.75 (c) states that ratings earned on a foreign
license may be placed on your US license (while not specifying if testing
is necessary; only in reference "additional ratings"). So, if you earn a
rating on a Canadian PPL, it should be applicable over here as well.

Going the other way, Brits and others regularly take their edumacation and
ratings in the US.

Austin Gosling wrote:


I have a US PPL, and I travel to Montreal frequently
....

While I was there, I made a short flight up the St. Lawrence with one of
their instructors. I did all the flying, but I have logged it as dual,
but of course the tail number is a "C-....". The question is, what are
the rules regarding the time logged under a foreign license? Can it be
applied for requirements for advanced ratings on the US side? Or does
time in a "C-...." only apply for Canadian ratings?

I have had the problem of dealing with different rules, and the solution
I came up with was initially to maintain two logbooks -- but it is a pain
in the neck -- or have a large enough book so that you can keep
additional info in the comments;

In the case you describe, you have a US PPL, you were flying a
whatever registered aircraft, I imagine a single engine land for which
you are rated on your US certificate, and were (I presume) the
sole manipulator of the controls: as far as the FAA is concerned, you
log this flight as PIC, whether there was an instructor on board or
not and regardless of the registration of the aircraft; I dunno about
the Canadians, but the British have different rules and the same
flight would be logged differently on my British logbook (which I
no longer bother to maintain);

--Sylvain

Sylvain wrote:
Austin Gosling wrote:


I have a US PPL, and I travel to Montreal frequently
...
While I was there, I made a short flight up the St. Lawrence with one of
their instructors. I did all the flying, but I have logged it as dual,
but of course the tail number is a "C-....". The question is, what are
the rules regarding the time logged under a foreign license? Can it be
applied for requirements for advanced ratings on the US side? Or does
time in a "C-...." only apply for Canadian ratings?

I have had the problem of dealing with different rules, and the solution
I came up with was initially to maintain two logbooks -- but it is a pain
in the neck -- or have a large enough book so that you can keep
additional info in the comments;

In the case you describe, you have a US PPL, you were flying a
whatever registered aircraft, I imagine a single engine land for which
you are rated on your US certificate, and were (I presume) the
sole manipulator of the controls: as far as the FAA is concerned, you
log this flight as PIC, whether there was an instructor on board or
not and regardless of the registration of the aircraft; I dunno about
the Canadians, but the British have different rules and the same
flight would be logged differently on my British logbook (which I
no longer bother to maintain);

--Sylvain

Ugh! Two log books. I can imagine that got old quickly. I have an
interesting entry from a check out I did in Houston prior to renting
their aircraft. The instructor logged it in my book while I was in the
bathroom after the flight. He logged it as both dual and PIC. It struck
me as odd, but he cited the same thing you say above about being the
sole manipulator of the controls.

I have just started flying again after 20 years away from it (same old
story: wife, kids, house, etc.), and some things seem different now. It
is like riding a bicycle, however. You don't forget the basics.

"Sylvain" wrote in message
...
snip
In the case you describe, you have a US PPL, you were flying a
whatever registered aircraft, I imagine a single engine land for which
you are rated on your US certificate, and were (I presume) the
sole manipulator of the controls: as far as the FAA is concerned, you
log this flight as PIC, whether there was an instructor on board or
not and regardless of the registration of the aircraft;

The proper authority for flight operations in Canada is the CARs, which are
the Canadian equivalent of the US FARs. The CARs are available on line
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/re.../cars/menu.htm
but are hard to navigate and it is often difficult to find the proper
section.

IIRC and AFAIK, You must have a Canadian licence or permit in order to ACT
as PIC of a C-registered aircraft, and similarly you must have a US
certificate or ??? to ACT as PIC of an N registered aircraft.
see CARs 401.03(1)
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Re...401.htm#401_03
see also CARs 401.07(1) on the same page.
The holder of (only) a Canadian licence or permit is NOT permitted to act as
PIC of any non C-registered aircraft, see CARs 401.04
The validation of foreign licences is covered in CARs 421.07
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Re...ndards/421.htm
and see also
CARs Division VI 421.26 (6) (b)

Transport Canada (TC) does not use the 'sole manipulator of the controls'
terminology, so while you MAY be able to log this flight as PIC for FAA
purposes, you would not be able to ACT as PIC (or fly solo) or claim the
time as PIC for Transport Canada purposes. If the person ACTING as PIC is a
TC certified instructor then you could log the time as dual instruction
received but if the person ACTING as PIC is not a CFI then you could not
claim dual and would be considered to be acting as a passenger even if you
were the sole manipulator.

Strictly speaking, an instructors certificate is not required to give
instruction for a float endorsement (IIRC, Some ATPL or CPL with the proper
type and class ratings may give instruction for type and class to properly
(Canadian) licenced pilots, who may claim flight as either PIC and/or dual
instruction received)
see CARs Division III 425.21 (6) & (7)
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Re...425.htm#425_21
Many (most?) float plane instruction is not given by CFI instructors. There
is a requirement for some solo time (Canadian Licence or permit required)
and TO/landing cycles, see CARs Division X 421.38 (1)
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Re...s/421.htmAFAIK it is not difficult or expensive ($25?) to obtain a Canadianvalidation of a US airman's certificate and does not require a Canadianmedical (there are some conditions). I have been told that this validationprocess is much easier for USCanadian than for CanadianUS (since 911) andthat today it is almost impossible to obtain a US validation for a CanadianCPL, at one time these validations were permanent (subject to validity oforiginal licence) but now are issued for a 5? year term. YMMVGood luck & Happy landings,

"Private" wrote in message
news:4hAKh.25107$DN.14161@pd7urf2no...

"Sylvain" wrote in message
...
snip
In the case you describe, you have a US PPL, you were flying a
whatever registered aircraft, I imagine a single engine land for which
you are rated on your US certificate, and were (I presume) the
sole manipulator of the controls: as far as the FAA is concerned, you
log this flight as PIC, whether there was an instructor on board or
not and regardless of the registration of the aircraft;

The proper authority for flight operations in Canada is the CARs, which
are the Canadian equivalent of the US FARs. The CARs are available on
line
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/re.../cars/menu.htm
but are hard to navigate and it is often difficult to find the proper
section.

IIRC and AFAIK, You must have a Canadian licence or permit in order to ACT
as PIC of a C-registered aircraft, and similarly you must have a US
certificate or ??? to ACT as PIC of an N registered aircraft.
see CARs 401.03(1)
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Re...401.htm#401_03
see also CARs 401.07(1) on the same page.
The holder of (only) a Canadian licence or permit is NOT permitted to act
as PIC of any non C-registered aircraft, see CARs 401.04
The validation of foreign licences is covered in CARs 421.07
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Re...ndards/421.htm
and see also
CARs Division VI 421.26 (6) (b)

Transport Canada (TC) does not use the 'sole manipulator of the controls'
terminology, so while you MAY be able to log this flight as PIC for FAA
purposes, you would not be able to ACT as PIC (or fly solo) or claim the
time as PIC for Transport Canada purposes. If the person ACTING as PIC is
a TC certified instructor then you could log the time as dual instruction
received but if the person ACTING as PIC is not a CFI then you could not
claim dual and would be considered to be acting as a passenger even if you
were the sole manipulator.

Strictly speaking, an instructors certificate is not required to give
instruction for a float endorsement (IIRC, Some ATPL or CPL with the
proper type and class ratings may give instruction for type and class to
properly (Canadian) licenced pilots, who may claim flight as either PIC
and/or dual instruction received)
see CARs Division III 425.21 (6) & (7)
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Re...425.htm#425_21
Many (most?) float plane instruction is not given by CFI instructors.
There is a requirement for some solo time (Canadian Licence or permit
required) and TO/landing cycles, see CARs Division X 421.38 (1)
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Re...ndards/421.htm

opps
AFAIK it is not difficult or expensive ($25?) to obtain a Canadianvalidation
of a US airman's certificate and does not require a Canadian medical (there
are some conditions). I have been told that this validationprocess is much
easier for USCanadian than for CanadianUS (since 911) and that today it is
almost impossible to obtain a US validation for a CanadianCPL, at one time
these validations were permanent (subject to validity oforiginal licence)
but now are issued for a 5? year term. YMMV

Good luck & Happy landings,

I note that Macklem has more current information below in this thread. Is
there a link to an announcement and application information?

TIA

On Mar 16, 2:27 am, Austin Gosling wrote:
Hi all. I've been reading this group for a while, but this is my first
post here.

I have a US PPL, and I travel to Montreal frequently on business. I went
over to the Montreal Flying Club at St. Hubert last week to see about
flying in Canada. Evidently, under reciprocal agreements, I can easily
get a Canadian license. Basically all I need are a Canadian medical and
a short written test.

While I was there, I made a short flight up the St. Lawrence with one of
their instructors. I did all the flying, but I have logged it as dual,
but of course the tail number is a "C-....". The question is, what are
the rules regarding the time logged under a foreign license? Can it be
applied for requirements for advanced ratings on the US side? Or does
time in a "C-...." only apply for Canadian ratings?

Also, if I were to get a Canadian license, then a seaplane rating on it,
for example, would the seaplane rating apply for my US license? Can I
get both upgraded at the same time?

By the way, if you are ever in Montreal, I can highly recommend a stop
by the Montreal Flying Club at St. Hubert airport on the south shore.
Very nice folks and very well maintained aircraft. Also a very nice
little airport.

Regards,
Austin

Austin
Different kind of situation perhaps because I needed to get the Canada
Commercial pilot rating some 10 years ago. I had to take a Canada
medical, pass the Commercial pilot written (which was not nearly as
easy as the tests in the USA) and do some required dual instruction
prior to the check ride. The flying part was relatively easy.
BTW, I had an ATP and probably 16,000 hours when I did all this. As
always, Transport Canada is the final answer when it comes to their
regs and requirements. I believe it easier to get the FAA certificates
than any place else in the world. Over the past 50 years I've gotten
licensed in 15 countries for work purposes. Some were easy reciprocal,
nearly all required a written on their air law and an acceptable
airmans physical. Few required a flight check based on log book
entries and currancy.
Cheers
OS&B