Chief Counsel rulings....

Anyone know where to view ruling by the FAA's chief counsel? In
particular, I'm looking for the one that that states "departure
procedures" referred to in Far 91.129(g) are only those traffic
pattern departure routes that the FAA sometimes establishes for a
particular airport. As opposed to say obstacle departure procedures.

Stan

wrote:
Anyone know where to view ruling by the FAA's chief counsel? In
particular, I'm looking for the one that that states "departure
procedures" referred to in Far 91.129(g) are only those traffic
pattern departure routes that the FAA sometimes establishes for a
particular airport. As opposed to say obstacle departure procedures.

Stan

The Summit Aviation CD has many, but not all, legal interp letters.

In any case 91.129 is not an IFR regulation. If you took "departure
procedre" in the context of 91.129 to mean ODP or SID, then everyone
departing an airport with an operating control tower would have to
follow the ODP or SID, even if they didn't have an instrument rating
and/or even if they hadn't filed IFR.

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 07:10:10 -0700, B wrote:

In any case 91.129 is not an IFR regulation. If you took "departure
procedre" in the context of 91.129 to mean ODP or SID, then everyone
departing an airport with an operating control tower would have to
follow the ODP or SID, even if they didn't have an instrument rating
and/or even if they hadn't filed IFR.

Good point. But where does one find a list of the "ifr" regulations,
as opposed to "vfr" regulations. Or is this just left up to the
reader to decide which regulations apply to his type of operation?

Stan

wrote:

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 07:10:10 -0700, B wrote:


In any case 91.129 is not an IFR regulation. If you took "departure
procedre" in the context of 91.129 to mean ODP or SID, then everyone
departing an airport with an operating control tower would have to
follow the ODP or SID, even if they didn't have an instrument rating
and/or even if they hadn't filed IFR.


Good point. But where does one find a list of the "ifr" regulations,
as opposed to "vfr" regulations. Or is this just left up to the
reader to decide which regulations apply to his type of operation?

Stan

In Part 91 the paragraphs all say "IFR" in the title, except for the
paragraph that pertains to complying with clearances, and even that has
an IFR qualifier in the body.

Stan wrote

Good point. But where does one find a list of the "ifr" regulations,
as opposed to "vfr" regulations. Or is this just left up to the
reader to decide which regulations apply to his type of operation?

It appears that the regulations pertinent to IFR are 91.167 thru 91.193.

Bob Moore

OK, so is there someone on the group here that has this Summit
Aviation cd that can let us know if there is a legal interpretation
letter reference departure procedures? Anyone?
Stan
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 07:10:10 -0700, B wrote:

wrote:
Anyone know where to view ruling by the FAA's chief counsel? In
particular, I'm looking for the one that that states "departure
procedures" referred to in Far 91.129(g) are only those traffic
pattern departure routes that the FAA sometimes establishes for a
particular airport. As opposed to say obstacle departure procedures.

Stan

The Summit Aviation CD has many, but not all, legal interp letters.

In any case 91.129 is not an IFR regulation. If you took "departure
procedre" in the context of 91.129 to mean ODP or SID, then everyone
departing an airport with an operating control tower would have to
follow the ODP or SID, even if they didn't have an instrument rating
and/or even if they hadn't filed IFR.

I think I have a Summit Aviation CD around here somewhere ... g

I found a couple references to departure procedures in the Legal
Interpretations section.

First, though, some background: Several years ago I talked to two gentlemen
who said they were lawyers who used to work at FAA. They said there was a
wall at least fifty feet long of four drawer filing cabinets filled with
legal interpretations. They frequently had to search through them and said
there was no organization or index. They also said that FARs are
intentionally written to be subject to interpretation. So as far as I know,
the Summit CD has just a tiny fraction of all the existing FAA legal
interpretations.

I'm not sure what the OP's question is, but maybe these interpretations will
partially answer it:

begin quote

January 13, 2006
Captain Pedro Rivas
Director, Charting and Instrument Procedures Committee
Air Line Pilots Association, International
535 Herndon Parkway
Post Office Box 1169
Herndon, VA 20172
Climb Gradient Information for Air Carrier Pilots
Dear Captain Rivas,
We received a copy of your letter requesting a legal interpretation of the
Federal Aviation Regulations. In summary, you asked:
1. whether an air carrier operating in accordance with parts 121 or 135 is
required to provide flight crewmembers with data necessary to assure that an
aircraft can comply with the climb gradients specified in published
instrument flight rules (IFR) departure procedures and standard instrument
departure (SID) procedures; and
2. whether pilots operating under parts 121 or 135 are required to follow a
published IFR departure procedure even when Air Traffic Control (ATC)
assigns a SID to a departing aircraft.
First, please accept our apologies for the delay in issuing a response to
your inquiry. As you are aware, the FAA has been working internally and with
the Government/Industry Aeronautical Charting Forum (Forum) on this issue.
We appreciate your efforts in resolving this aviation safety matter.
Regarding the first issue, there is presently no requirement in the Federal
Aviation Regulations mandating air carriers or commercial operators to
provide climb gradient data to flight crewmembers. Therefore, it would be
necessary for the FAA to conduct rulemaking proceedings in order to impose
this requirement. Section 5 of the Administrative Procedure Act defines
rulemaking as the agency process for formulating, amending, or repealing a
rule.1 FAA rules are subject to public notice and comment prior to
implementation. You may file a petition for rulemaking in accordance with 14
C.F.R. part 11.
Your second area of concern involved the requirement for pilots to follow
published IFR departure procedures. Specifically, you asked which procedure
a pilot should follow if ATC issues a SID that differs from the published
IFR departure procedure for a particular airport.
As an initial matter, it is helpful to clarify that a "published IFR
departure procedure" may be a SID developed for ATC purposes or an obstacle
departure procedure (ODP) developed for obstacle clearance purposes. ODPs
are developed by the Aviation System Standards Division (AVN) within the FAA
Flight Standards Service.2 According to Flight Standards, ATC historically
developed SIDs for purposes of expediting air traffic and maintaining
aircraft separation. SIDs did not contain an assessment for obstacle
clearance beyond the first en route navigational fix. Instead, the obstacle
assessment along the SID route was terminated at the first en route airway
fix even if the SID procedure had transition routes beyond that point. The
SIDs contained a standard 200 feet per nautical mile climb gradient that
provided obstacle clearance for most airports. Procedures requiring greater
climb gradients were specifically tested and documented in the Terminal
Procedures Publication as part of the procedure. Therefore, flight crews are
provided with adequate obstacle clearance climb gradients, even when using a
SID developed by ATC.
In recent years, AVN and ATC began developing ODPs that establish climb
gradients for obstacle clearance beyond the first en route navigational fix.
All airports with instrument approach procedures are assessed to determine
if an ODP should be published. ODPs are published for airports with a
required climb gradient of more than 200 feet per nautical mile for obstacle
clearance. The ODPs are valid for all directions of flight unless otherwise
stated in the ODP.
According to your letter, the question regarding which procedure a pilot
must follow stems from FAA Interpretation 1993-30.3 In that interpretation,
the FAA stated that part 121 or 135 operators are required to follow "any
published IFR departure procedure" regardless of the weather conditions. A
SID issued by ATC and an ODP developed by AVN are both "published IFR
departure procedures." Therefore, it is consistent with the 1993
interpretation and regulatory requirements for an operator to comply with
either procedure. The pilot in command (PIC) has the authority to determine
which procedure is most appropriate based on the circumstances of the
flight. However, if the PIC desires to use an ODP instead of the SID issued
by ATC, the PIC must request an amended clearance in accordance with §
91.123.
We trust that the foregoing interpretation is responsive to your inquiry,
and we apologize again for the delay in its issuance. This interpretation
was prepared by the Operations Law Branch of the Office of the Chief
Counsel, and coordinated with the Air Transportation and Flight Operations
Divisions of the Flight Standards Service. Please contact us if we can be of
further assistance.
Sincerely,
Rebecca MacPherson
Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations

end quote

begin quote

November 30, 1993
Dear Mr. McBride and Mr. Birdsong:

This is in response to your letter of June 30, 1993, in which you request an
interpretation of Section 91.129(f) of the Federal Aviation Regulations
(FAR) (14 CFR Section 91.129 (f)).

Section 91.129(f) states, in part, that no person may operate an aircraft
taking off from an airport with an operating control tower unless he
complies with any departure procedures established for that airport by the
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). Instrument Flight Rules (IFR)
departure procedures are established to provide a safe and efficient route
from an airport to the minimum enroute altitude.

The FAA establishes IFR departure procedures in accordance with criteria set
forth in the United States Standard for Terminal Instrument Procedures
(TERPs). IFR departure procedures established under the TERPs are designed
to ensure terrain and obstacle clearance provided a pilot adheres to them.

In your letter, you ask whether a pilot must adhere to an IFR departure
procedure when cleared for takeoff at an airport with a published IFR
departure procedure. You specifically ask whether a pilot is required to
adhere to such a procedure under various operating conditions.

Under Section 91.113(b), when weather conditions permit, a pilot must
operate his aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft regardless of
whether the flight is conducted under Visual Flight Rules (VFR) or under
IFR. However, under Part 91, a pilot generally is not required to adhere to
a published IFR departure procedure. Under Instrument Meteorological
Conditions (IMC), a pilot should, but is not required to, follow an IFR
departure procedure. When outside of radar coverage, however, a pilot
remains responsible for terrain and obstacle clearance.

Furthermore, Section 91.123 provides that a pilot may not deviate from an
Air Traffic Control (ATC) clearance except in an emergency or unless an
amended clearance has been obtained. Accordingly, a pilot operating under
Part 91 must follow an IFR departure procedure when it is part of the
applicable ATC clearance.

Under Part 121 or Part 135, a pilot is required to follow any published IFR
departure procedure regardless of whether the flight is conducted under VMC
or under IMC.

If you have any further questions regarding this matter, please contact
Patricia R. Lane, Manager, Airspace and Air Traffic Law Branch.

Sincerely,

Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division

end quote

begin quote

February 4, 1975
AEA-7

Request for Interpretation, Part 91

Regional Counsel, AEA-7

AIFO-NY-1

Reference is made to your letter dated January 14, 1975, relative to the
above FARs. Section 91.87(f) applies only to airports with operating control
towers and prohibits any pilot from departing such an airport without
complying with departure procedures for that airport by FAA. Section
91.116(c) on the other hand applies only to Part 121, 123, 129 and 135
operations at any civil airport but in no way abrogates the enforceability
of the provisions of Section 91.87(f) as to departure procedures against
Part 91 operators.

/s/
MARTIN J. WHITE

end quote

Jon

wrote in message
...
OK, so is there someone on the group here that has this Summit
Aviation cd that can let us know if there is a legal interpretation
letter reference departure procedures? Anyone?
Stan
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 07:10:10 -0700, B wrote:

wrote:
Anyone know where to view ruling by the FAA's chief counsel? In
particular, I'm looking for the one that that states "departure
procedures" referred to in Far 91.129(g) are only those traffic
pattern departure routes that the FAA sometimes establishes for a
particular airport. As opposed to say obstacle departure procedures.

Stan

The Summit Aviation CD has many, but not all, legal interp letters.

In any case 91.129 is not an IFR regulation. If you took "departure
procedre" in the context of 91.129 to mean ODP or SID, then everyone
departing an airport with an operating control tower would have to
follow the ODP or SID, even if they didn't have an instrument rating
and/or even if they hadn't filed IFR.

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 11:30:25 -0600, "Jon Woellhaf"
wrote:

..
According to your letter, the question regarding which procedure a pilot
must follow stems from FAA Interpretation 1993-30.3 In that interpretation,
the FAA stated that part 121 or 135 operators are required to follow "any
published IFR departure procedure" regardless of the weather conditions. A
SID issued by ATC and an ODP developed by AVN are both "published IFR
departure procedures." Therefore, it is consistent with the 1993
interpretation and regulatory requirements for an operator to comply with
either procedure. The pilot in command (PIC) has the authority to determine
which procedure is most appropriate based on the circumstances of the
flight. However, if the PIC desires to use an ODP instead of the SID issued
by ATC, the PIC must request an amended clearance in accordance with §
91.123.

AND

However, under Part 91, a pilot generally is not required to adhere to
a published IFR departure procedure. Under Instrument Meteorological
Conditions (IMC), a pilot should, but is not required to, follow an IFR
departure procedure. When outside of radar coverage, however, a pilot
remains responsible for terrain and obstacle clearance.

Under Part 121 or Part 135, a pilot is required to follow any published IFR
departure procedure regardless of whether the flight is conducted under VMC
or under IMC.

Thanks Jon. I believe this tells us Part 91 does not need to follow
published ifr dept procs unless clearances states so. And as others
have pointed out, the FAA published traffic pattern like procedures
(vfr) are what is referred to in 91.129g.

Stan

Anyone know where to view ruling by the FAA's chief counsel?

Try Jeppesen's "FARs Explained":
http://www.jeppesen.com/wlcs/applica...egory_id=AT1C5

1. The Chief Counsel does not make rulings, (s)he makes opinions that the
FAA is obliged by custom to follow. Only judges make rulings and the
Counsel ain't a judge. (Old saw: What do you call those who graduate in
the bottom 10% of their law school class? Answer below.)

2. THat "departure procedures" thing has gotten more than one of us. So
far as I know, the FAA itself has only established departure procedures for
one or two airports and I think that they are Dulles and National back in
DC. That particular section does not apply to sids and such. I can't give
you a cite right now because that was something I found out about more than
twenty years ago and have forgotten where I found it.

Jim

--
"If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
--Henry Ford

Answer: "Your Honor..."



wrote in message
...
Anyone know where to view ruling by the FAA's chief counsel? In
particular, I'm looking for the one that that states "departure
procedures" referred to in Far 91.129(g) are only those traffic
pattern departure routes that the FAA sometimes establishes for a
particular airport. As opposed to say obstacle departure procedures.

Stan