FAA Revoking Standard Airworthiness Certificate DG-505

We imported a DG-505 Elan Orion built at the AMS Flight, d.o.o. (AMS)
factory in Slovenia in 2006. It came with a Slovenian Certificate of
Airworthiness and an AMS data plate. It was built under a German
Standard Airworthiness Certificate which designates AMS in Slovenia as
the manufacturer. DG is the owner of the European Standard Flight
Certificate.

At the time of import the U.S. Standard Type Certificate designated
the DG factory in Germany as the only acceptable manufacturer making
no mention of AMS in Slovenia. To correct this situation the Small
Aircraft Directorate at the FAA for gliders rewrote the type
certificate to make AMS in Slovenia an acceptable manufacturer. This
in part allowed the glider to receive a U.S. Standard Airworthiness
Certificate.

Also the glider did not have a German certificate of airworthiness but
only a Slovenian certificate of airworthiness. AMS had not sent the
aircraft to Germany to receive a German certificate of airworthiness.
The FAA was initially demanding a German airworthiness certificate but
again the FAA directorate modified the U.S. certificate to make any
EASA (the new European Union aviation administration) member nation as
an acceptable supplier of an airworthiness certificate. Because
Slovenia was on the cusp of being a member of EASA in 2006 (and now is
a full member) the designated airworthiness representative granted the
U.S. Standard Airworthiness Certificate.

Now 2 years later the FAA has told us its own actions were a mistake
and is about to revoke the standard airworthiness certificate if we do
not relinquish it freely. The FAA is saying that the changes to the
U.S. certificate that were made by the directorate in Kansas City were
in error. They are indicating that they did not realize that Elan
aircraft were not built in Germany and because the FAA has no
bilateral agreement (BASA) with Slovenia the certificate must be
relinquished.

Can the FAA do this at this late date? DG and AMS have not been
willing to resolve this issue and have basically said that the only
alternative is for us to ship the aircraft back to Germany and have
the aircraft reissued at our own expense.

Thanks for any help!
N505LG

On Oct 17, 4:06*pm, NG wrote:
We imported a DG-505 Elan Orion built at the AMS Flight, d.o.o. (AMS)
factory in Slovenia in 2006. *It came with a Slovenian Certificate of
Airworthiness and an AMS data plate. *It was built under a German
Standard Airworthiness Certificate which designates AMS in Slovenia as
the manufacturer. *DG is the owner of the European Standard Flight
Certificate.

At the time of import the U.S. Standard Type Certificate designated
the DG factory in Germany as the only acceptable manufacturer making
no mention of AMS in Slovenia. *To correct this situation the Small
Aircraft Directorate at the FAA for gliders rewrote the type
certificate to make AMS in Slovenia an acceptable manufacturer. *This
in part allowed the glider to receive a U.S. Standard Airworthiness
Certificate.

Also the glider did not have a German certificate of airworthiness but
only a Slovenian certificate of airworthiness. *AMS had not sent the
aircraft to Germany to receive a German certificate of airworthiness.
The FAA was initially demanding a German airworthiness certificate but
again the FAA directorate modified the U.S. certificate to make any
EASA (the new European Union aviation administration) member nation as
an acceptable supplier of an airworthiness certificate. *Because
Slovenia was on the cusp of being a member of EASA in 2006 (and now is
a full member) the designated airworthiness representative granted the
U.S. Standard Airworthiness Certificate.

Now 2 years later the FAA has told us its own actions were a mistake
and is about to revoke the standard airworthiness certificate if we do
not relinquish it freely. *The FAA is saying that the changes to the
U.S. certificate that were made by the directorate in Kansas City were
in error. * They are indicating that they did not realize that Elan
aircraft were not built in Germany and because the FAA has no
bilateral agreement (BASA) with Slovenia the certificate must be
relinquished.

Can the FAA do this at this late date? *DG and AMS have not been
willing to resolve this issue and have basically said that the only
alternative is for us to ship the aircraft back to Germany and have
the aircraft reissued at our own expense.

Thanks for any help!
N505LG

Is there a reason (e.g. commercial use?) you cannot go experimental
racing/exhibition. Otherwise I'd suggest taking your problem to an
aviation lawyer. AOPA legal services may be a good place to start.

Darryl

On Oct 17, 4:06*pm, NG wrote:
...DG and AMS have not been
willing to resolve this issue and have basically said that the only
alternative is for us to ship the aircraft back to Germany and have
the aircraft reissued at our own expense.

Just curious, did you buy the ship through one of their dealers, and
if so, what do they have to say about this situation?

Bob K.

First the problems with the DG-300 spars, and now the DG-505
paperwork. In both cases DG apparently feel that they are absolved
of any responsibility to their customers--and have little concern
for future sales, apparently.

Fine airplanes, as a rule: damn poor attitude, though.

Have DG never heard of customer support after the sale? There must
be people here in the US who would be willing to help US owners of
both types sort through these problems with minimal cost and
frustration, if DG would be willing to do their part to coordinate.

Expecting customers to ship a glider back to Europe at the owner's
expense to solve factory production or government paperwork
problems, is not a foundation on which to build trust. Perhaps
they should remember that designing good aircraft is only one part
of the business.

The FAA have their own problems, of course. How nice it would be
if DG could show it is on a higher plane.


Jack

On Oct 17, 10:56*pm, Jack wrote:
First the problems with the DG-300 spars, and now the DG-505
paperwork. In both cases DG apparently feel that they are absolved
of any responsibility to their customers--and have little concern
for future sales, apparently.

Fine airplanes, as a rule: damn poor attitude, though.

Have DG never heard of customer support after the sale? There must
be people here in the US who would be willing to help US owners of
both types sort through these problems with minimal cost and
frustration, if DG would be willing to do their part to coordinate.

Expecting customers to ship a glider back to Europe at the owner's
expense to solve factory production or government paperwork
problems, is not a foundation on which to build trust. Perhaps
they should remember that designing good aircraft is only one part
of the business.

The FAA have their own problems, of course. How nice it would be
if DG could show it is on a higher plane.

Jack

After sale? DG did not make a sale here. From what I can see based on
the registration date of this glider this was likely sold by a US
Dealer of AMS Flight. DG was not involved. If the USA Dealer or AMS
Flight stated the aircraft was type certificated in the USA they
should fix the issue. Maybe the AMS dealer was sloppy or unaware of an
issue (but they ought to still help fix it), maybe he thought it would
be registered as experimntal. First question again is does the glider
need to be type certificated or will experimental do. It looks like it
is registered to two individual owners, if it's just for private
flying then stop all the hassle now and go experimental.

If the problem was the glider needed a real live German certificate of
airworthiness at time of import then it may well be that DG cannot
just go and retroactively do paperwork to fix this. Maybe time to get
am aviation lawyer involved. Of course if it turns out that DG can do
something and is just sitting on their hands it's a different matter,
but until somebody knows for sure...


Darryl

On 18 Okt., 07:56, Jack wrote:
First the problems with the DG-300 spars, and now the DG-505
paperwork. In both cases DG apparently feel that they are absolved
of any responsibility to their customers--and have little concern
for future sales, apparently.

Fine airplanes, as a rule: damn poor attitude, though.

Have DG never heard of customer support after the sale? There must
be people here in the US who would be willing to help US owners of
both types sort through these problems with minimal cost and
frustration, if DG would be willing to do their part to coordinate.

Expecting customers to ship a glider back to Europe at the owner's
expense to solve factory production or government paperwork
problems, is not a foundation on which to build trust. Perhaps
they should remember that designing good aircraft is only one part
of the business.

The FAA have their own problems, of course. How nice it would be
if DG could show it is on a higher plane.

Jack

Hi Jack

Sorry to say, but nearly everything in your posting is wrong. Let me
explain:

1. The glider was built and sold by and paid to AMS. DG had just no
shares in that business. I only had allowed AMS to use our molds -
that's all!

2. As described below the customer was aware of the problems and
ordered one of our inspector to the US. We prepared everything, but
then he cancelled the journey.

3. We did not write any invoice to the (non-)customer. We did the
preperation as service. That is our policy.

4. Obviously the problems were caused by the FAA - that is completely
outside of our control.

5. The customer is aware that inspite of sending the glider to Germany
for an inspection we also can repeat the visit we had prepared some
years ago. We need to inspect the glider personally - then we are
allowed to issue the necessary paperwork. Although we did not sell the
glider, it is self-evident for us to offer our help, wherever it is
needed.

6. Jack, you definetely will know it already:
DG also had no shares in the business of the DG-300's with the spar
problem. These gliders were neither built nor sold by DG Flugzeugbau.
It is very simple to inform yourself and you should do it, before you
are writing such a nonsense!

Best Greetings
Friedel Weber

DG-Flugzeugbau GmbH

Soaring - Touch the Sky!

On Oct 18, 10:06*am, wrote:

Hi Jack

Sorry to say, but nearly everything in your posting is wrong. Let me
explain:

1. The glider was built and sold by and paid to AMS. DG had just no
shares in that business. I only had allowed AMS to use our molds -
that's all!

2. As described below the customer was aware of the problems and
ordered one of our inspector to the US. We prepared everything, but
then he cancelled the journey.

3. We did not write any invoice to the (non-)customer. We did the
preperation as service. That is our policy.

4. Obviously the problems were caused by the FAA - that is completely
outside of our control.

5. The customer is aware that inspite of sending the glider to Germany
for an inspection we also can repeat the visit we had prepared some
years ago. We need to inspect the glider personally - then we are
allowed to issue the necessary paperwork. Although we did not sell the
glider, it is self-evident for us to offer our help, wherever it is
needed.

6. Jack, you definetely will know it already:
DG also had no shares in the business of the DG-300's with the spar
problem. These gliders were neither built nor sold by DG Flugzeugbau.
It is very simple to inform yourself and you should do it, before you
are writing such a nonsense!

Best Greetings
Friedel Weber

DG-Flugzeugbau GmbH

Soaring - Touch the Sky!

I don't have much to add, I just wanted to quote this for posterity.
Thanks, Bob K.

On Oct 17, 5:06*pm, NG wrote:
We imported a DG-505 Elan Orion built at the AMS Flight, d.o.o. (AMS)
factory in Slovenia in 2006. *It came with a Slovenian Certificate of
Airworthiness and an AMS data plate. *It was built under a German
Standard Airworthiness Certificate which designates AMS in Slovenia as
the manufacturer. *DG is the owner of the European Standard Flight
Certificate.

At the time of import the U.S. Standard Type Certificate designated
the DG factory in Germany as the only acceptable manufacturer making
no mention of AMS in Slovenia. *To correct this situation the Small
Aircraft Directorate at the FAA for gliders rewrote the type
certificate to make AMS in Slovenia an acceptable manufacturer. *This
in part allowed the glider to receive a U.S. Standard Airworthiness
Certificate.

Also the glider did not have a German certificate of airworthiness but
only a Slovenian certificate of airworthiness. *AMS had not sent the
aircraft to Germany to receive a German certificate of airworthiness.
The FAA was initially demanding a German airworthiness certificate but
again the FAA directorate modified the U.S. certificate to make any
EASA (the new European Union aviation administration) member nation as
an acceptable supplier of an airworthiness certificate. *Because
Slovenia was on the cusp of being a member of EASA in 2006 (and now is
a full member) the designated airworthiness representative granted the
U.S. Standard Airworthiness Certificate.

Now 2 years later the FAA has told us its own actions were a mistake
and is about to revoke the standard airworthiness certificate if we do
not relinquish it freely. *The FAA is saying that the changes to the
U.S. certificate that were made by the directorate in Kansas City were
in error. * They are indicating that they did not realize that Elan
aircraft were not built in Germany and because the FAA has no
bilateral agreement (BASA) with Slovenia the certificate must be
relinquished.

Can the FAA do this at this late date? *DG and AMS have not been
willing to resolve this issue and have basically said that the only
alternative is for us to ship the aircraft back to Germany and have
the aircraft reissued at our own expense.

Thanks for any help!
N505LG

Appear to be four in the US. You might also advise the FAA
Governmental Liaison Committee if you haven't already done so.

Frank Whiteley

On Oct 17, 11:47*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Oct 17, 5:06*pm, NG wrote:



We imported a DG-505 Elan Orion built at the AMS Flight, d.o.o. (AMS)
factory in Slovenia in 2006. *It came with a Slovenian Certificate of
Airworthiness and an AMS data plate. *It was built under a German
Standard Airworthiness Certificate which designates AMS in Slovenia as
the manufacturer. *DG is the owner of the European Standard Flight
Certificate.

At the time of import the U.S. Standard Type Certificate designated
the DG factory in Germany as the only acceptable manufacturer making
no mention of AMS in Slovenia. *To correct this situation the Small
Aircraft Directorate at the FAA for gliders rewrote the type
certificate to make AMS in Slovenia an acceptable manufacturer. *This
in part allowed the glider to receive a U.S. Standard Airworthiness
Certificate.

Also the glider did not have a German certificate of airworthiness but
only a Slovenian certificate of airworthiness. *AMS had not sent the
aircraft to Germany to receive a German certificate of airworthiness.
The FAA was initially demanding a German airworthiness certificate but
again the FAA directorate modified the U.S. certificate to make any
EASA (the new European Union aviation administration) member nation as
an acceptable supplier of an airworthiness certificate. *Because
Slovenia was on the cusp of being a member of EASA in 2006 (and now is
a full member) the designated airworthiness representative granted the
U.S. Standard Airworthiness Certificate.

Now 2 years later the FAA has told us its own actions were a mistake
and is about to revoke the standard airworthiness certificate if we do
not relinquish it freely. *The FAA is saying that the changes to the
U.S. certificate that were made by the directorate in Kansas City were
in error. * They are indicating that they did not realize that Elan
aircraft were not built in Germany and because the FAA has no
bilateral agreement (BASA) with Slovenia the certificate must be
relinquished.

Can the FAA do this at this late date? *DG and AMS have not been
willing to resolve this issue and have basically said that the only
alternative is for us to ship the aircraft back to Germany and have
the aircraft reissued at our own expense.

Thanks for any help!
N505LG

Appear to be four in the US. *You might also advise the FAA
Governmental Liaison Committee if you haven't already done so.

Frank Whiteley

Sorry, meant SSA Governmental Liaison Committee.

On Oct 17, 10:47*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Oct 17, 5:06*pm, NG wrote:



We imported a DG-505 Elan Orion built at the AMS Flight, d.o.o. (AMS)
factory in Slovenia in 2006. *It came with a Slovenian Certificate of
Airworthiness and an AMS data plate. *It was built under a German
Standard Airworthiness Certificate which designates AMS in Slovenia as
the manufacturer. *DG is the owner of the European Standard Flight
Certificate.

At the time of import the U.S. Standard Type Certificate designated
the DG factory in Germany as the only acceptable manufacturer making
no mention of AMS in Slovenia. *To correct this situation the Small
Aircraft Directorate at the FAA for gliders rewrote the type
certificate to make AMS in Slovenia an acceptable manufacturer. *This
in part allowed the glider to receive a U.S. Standard Airworthiness
Certificate.

Also the glider did not have a German certificate of airworthiness but
only a Slovenian certificate of airworthiness. *AMS had not sent the
aircraft to Germany to receive a German certificate of airworthiness.
The FAA was initially demanding a German airworthiness certificate but
again the FAA directorate modified the U.S. certificate to make any
EASA (the new European Union aviation administration) member nation as
an acceptable supplier of an airworthiness certificate. *Because
Slovenia was on the cusp of being a member of EASA in 2006 (and now is
a full member) the designated airworthiness representative granted the
U.S. Standard Airworthiness Certificate.

Now 2 years later the FAA has told us its own actions were a mistake
and is about to revoke the standard airworthiness certificate if we do
not relinquish it freely. *The FAA is saying that the changes to the
U.S. certificate that were made by the directorate in Kansas City were
in error. * They are indicating that they did not realize that Elan
aircraft were not built in Germany and because the FAA has no
bilateral agreement (BASA) with Slovenia the certificate must be
relinquished.

Can the FAA do this at this late date? *DG and AMS have not been
willing to resolve this issue and have basically said that the only
alternative is for us to ship the aircraft back to Germany and have
the aircraft reissued at our own expense.

Thanks for any help!
N505LG

Appear to be four in the US. *You might also advise the FAA
Governmental Liaison Committee if you haven't already done so.

Frank Whiteley

There are more than four, there are over 20 DG-500/DG-505/DG-500M etc.
variants in the USA and they list different permutations of
manufactures. The FAA database for these gliders looks a bit of a mess
if you try to match dates/claimed manufacturers etc.

Darryl