German Club class championship calls a +500KM task!

Check out the website for the German 2009 Club Class Championships!
Sorry it is in German but a translator will let you see the important
info. The impressive 504KM task at 95kmh in a Libelle.
http://www.lsv-schwarzwald.de/pages/dmwinzeln2009.php/

Bob

Back at the 2006 Club Class Worlds in Vinon France we went on a 498km
assigned task, in thunderstorms, and I think I pushed my Libelle
around at @ 113kmh - and that only gave me 5th or 6th on the day.
Still - shows that "old" gliders can certainly go out on long,
assigned tasks like the "FAI" classes.

Tim EY

On May 28, 6:27*am, Bob wrote:
Check out the website for the German 2009 Club Class Championships!
Sorry it is in German but a translator will let you see the important
info. The impressive 504KM task at 95kmh in a Libelle.http://www.lsv-schwarzwald.de/pages/dmwinzeln2009.php/

Bob

On May 28, 6:48*am, wrote:
Back at the 2006 Club Class Worlds in Vinon France we went on a 498km
assigned task, in thunderstorms, and I think I pushed my Libelle
around at @ 113kmh - and that only gave me 5th or 6th on the day.
Still - shows that "old" gliders can certainly go out on long,
assigned tasks like the "FAI" classes.

Tim EY

Impressive - Tim's example rightly takes the wind out of the argument
that the US needs a separate Club Class based on the belief that Club
Class gliders can't go out on "big boy" tasks.

9B

"Andy" wrote in message
:

On May 28, 6:48 am, wrote:
Back at the 2006 Club Class Worlds in Vinon France we went on a 498km
assigned task, in thunderstorms, and I think I pushed my Libelle
around at @ 113kmh - and that only gave me 5th or 6th on the day.
Still - shows that "old" gliders can certainly go out on long,
assigned tasks like the "FAI" classes.

Tim EY

Impressive - Tim's example rightly takes the wind out of the argument
that the US needs a separate Club Class based on the belief that Club
Class gliders can't go out on "big boy" tasks.

9B

Andy, I don't follow your logic at all. Seems to me that it conversely
provides the reasons that we do need a separate class.

No one who has pushed for a separate club class here in the USA have
done so because they think that vintage or club class gliders cannot do
long, fast flights. The problem is that heretofore in the USA if you
had a ship that is less than the latest, then your only option is to fly
in Sports Class if you want to have a chance to be competitive. In
Sports Class, because of the usually very wide performance capabilities
of the entrants, the CD would have to call "Do It Yourself" tasks (MATs,
TAT's with very large circles, or in earlier days PST's [as the late
Bill Bartell called "Piece of Sh*t Tasks]). Hence, the contestants are
basically "on their on"... not on an assigned task. With a separate
Club Class with similar performance characteristics, the CD can indeed
call an Assigned Task where you do have "real racing".

Larry

*Hence, the contestants are
basically "on their on"... not on an assigned task. *With a separate
Club Class with similar performance characteristics, the CD can indeed
call an Assigned Task where you do have "real racing".

I don't want to get in to the big club class argument, but let's not
put too much stake in assigned tasks.

First, none of the other classes -- standard, 15, 18, open -- fly
assigned tasks that often anymore. I haven't been to a contest in 10
years that had more than one assigned task. Unless you get a different
pool of CDs, don't count on that to be much different in club class.

Second, you can achieve an "assigned task" in the MAT structure by
simply calling a lot of turnpoints. I don't know why this is not done
more often but it should be. You get all the joys of assigned task
racing -- start gate roulette, big gaggle flying, everyone on the same
course, leeching, watching your buddies go by, and so forth. But after
X hours everyone gets to go home rather than land out the bottom 25%
of the fleet.

There are lots of good reasons for a club class in the US, and a few
cautionary reasons against it, but "so we can fly assigned tasks"
doesn't seem all that pressing given the above two points.

John Cochrane BB

On May 29, 4:14*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
**Hence, the contestants are

basically "on their on"... not on an assigned task. *With a separate
Club Class with similar performance characteristics, the CD can indeed
call an Assigned Task where you do have "real racing".

I don't want to get in to the big club class argument, but let's not
put too much stake in assigned tasks.

First, none of the other classes -- standard, 15, 18, open -- fly
assigned tasks that often anymore. I haven't been to a contest in 10
years that had more than one assigned task. Unless you get a different
pool of CDs, don't count on that to be much different in club class.

Second, you can achieve an "assigned task" in the MAT structure by
simply calling a lot of turnpoints. *I don't know why this is not done
more often but it should be. You get all the joys of assigned task
racing -- start gate roulette, big gaggle flying, everyone on the same
course, leeching, watching your buddies go by, and so forth. But after
X hours everyone gets to go home rather than land out the bottom 25%
of the fleet.

There are lots of good reasons for a club class in the US, and a few
cautionary reasons against it, but "so we can fly assigned tasks"
doesn't seem all that pressing given the above two points.

John Cochrane BB

Well, I agree, but only to a point. It really is handy with sports
class
where you have a wide disparity of performance. I also agree that it
isn't called much any more, but I think there's a lot of people
that regret that trend. If the performance range of the ships is
fairly limited then the only reason to leave out turnpoints
compared to other competitors is because of lack of skill.
Also, if you look at what's being called in world club class
competitions a great many, if not the actual majority, of the
tasks called are assigned tasks, so we're ill preparing our team
members with how we're calling our contests.

I'll throw in one more point -- club class is the natural endpoint
to strong competitors who've learned the trade in sports class
(unless they can afford a latest generation racing plane). It
should also help encourage clubs to acquire the older generation
of planes and make them available to their members for
cross country and contest flying.

-- Matt

On May 29, 2:19*am, Andy wrote:
On May 28, 6:48*am, wrote:

Back at the 2006 Club Class Worlds in Vinon France we went on a 498km
assigned task, in thunderstorms, and I think I pushed my Libelle
around at @ 113kmh - and that only gave me 5th or 6th on the day.
Still - shows that "old" gliders can certainly go out on long,
assigned tasks like the "FAI" classes.

Tim EY

Impressive - Tim's example rightly takes the wind out of the argument
that the US needs a separate Club Class based on the belief that Club
Class gliders can't go out on "big boy" tasks.

9B

9B,

I disagree. Those of us who support a Club Class in America aren't
concerned about the length of the task called. Heck no. What we want
is the ability to call Racing Tasks (also called Assigned Tasks)
instead of just Turn Area Tasks and Modified Assigned Tasks. We also
want a group of gliders more closely matched in performance. And, we
would like to get a handle on the assignment of handicaps. Since many
other countries already fly Club Class, I think they are using an IGC
based system of assigning handicaps. Is it any better than the Carl
Herald (sp?) system (and modified Carl Herald numbers) that we now
use? I hope so. And maybe we here in the US can start using the IGC
handicaps for future Club Class races.

I flew in the First United States Club Class Race in Cordele, Georgia
just a couple of weeks back and it was real fun to line up on the grid
and not see a bunch of ASW-27's, Duo Discii, Ventus V2's, Discus D2's,
JS1's, 304s', Diana's, etc in our class. The weather cooperated one
day for a real assigned task to be called. Hallelujah!
Unfortunately, the Cordele weather of legend didn't show up and the
three other days we flew, we had Turn Area Tasks. But at least our
CD, Sam Giltner, kept the circles small which gave us more of a chance
to stay and race together rather than spreading us out over many
square miles that really big circles can do.

I'm not concerned about "big boy" tasks. Of course, any of my friends
who might be tasked to come get me might have a bit more concern...

Sincerely,
Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

On May 29, 10:05*am, rlovinggood wrote:
On May 29, 2:19*am, Andy wrote:

On May 28, 6:48*am, wrote:

Back at the 2006 Club Class Worlds in Vinon France we went on a 498km
assigned task, in thunderstorms, and I think I pushed my Libelle
around at @ 113kmh - and that only gave me 5th or 6th on the day.
Still - shows that "old" gliders can certainly go out on long,
assigned tasks like the "FAI" classes.

Tim EY

Impressive - Tim's example rightly takes the wind out of the argument
that the US needs a separate Club Class based on the belief that Club
Class gliders can't go out on "big boy" tasks.

9B

9B,

I disagree. *Those of us who support a Club Class in America aren't
concerned about the length of the task called. *Heck no. *What we want
is the ability to call Racing Tasks (also called Assigned Tasks)
instead of just Turn Area Tasks and Modified Assigned Tasks. *We also
want a group of gliders more closely matched in performance. *And, we
would like to get a handle on the assignment of handicaps. *Since many
other countries already fly Club Class, I think they are using an IGC
based system of assigning handicaps. *Is it any better than the Carl
Herald (sp?) system (and modified Carl Herald numbers) that we now
use? *I hope so. *And maybe we here in the US can start using the IGC
handicaps for future Club Class races.

I flew in the First United States Club Class Race in Cordele, Georgia
just a couple of weeks back and it was real fun to line up on the grid
and not see a bunch of ASW-27's, Duo Discii, Ventus V2's, Discus D2's,
JS1's, 304s', Diana's, etc in our class. *The weather cooperated one
day for a real assigned task to be called. *Hallelujah!
Unfortunately, the Cordele weather of legend didn't show up and the
three other days we flew, we had Turn Area Tasks. *But at least our
CD, Sam Giltner, kept the circles small which gave us more of a chance
to stay and race together rather than spreading us out over many
square miles that really big circles can do.

I'm not concerned about "big boy" tasks. *Of course, any of my friends
who might be tasked to come get me might have a bit more concern...

Sincerely,
Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

I'll second all that. Having flown in the same contest, it was really
cool to share thermals all the way around the course.
At one point I think there were 6 gliders (out of 17) all in one
thermal out on course. At the end we all ended up
in adjacent fields (since only about 5 made it around thanks to a big
cloud shadow shooting most of us down).

The contest ended up being much more competitive than sports class
contests I've flown. Being that it was
the first in the US it took on something of a "national competition"
character, and it attracted pilots
from all across the country and Canada too. Many mentioned 15+ hour
drives to get to the contest.

Sports class still has its place. It might be a better venue for
someone starting out to have easier tasks
to fly. If our assigned task had been called as a 3 turn MAT a larger
number of pilots may have made it back
after 1 or 2 turnpoints because that would have been less challenging,
but where's the point in that when
you're trying to call a strong challenge for everyone?

-- Matt

On May 29, 9:12*am, wrote:
On May 29, 10:05*am, rlovinggood wrote:



On May 29, 2:19*am, Andy wrote:

On May 28, 6:48*am, wrote:

Back at the 2006 Club Class Worlds in Vinon France we went on a 498km
assigned task, in thunderstorms, and I think I pushed my Libelle
around at @ 113kmh - and that only gave me 5th or 6th on the day.
Still - shows that "old" gliders can certainly go out on long,
assigned tasks like the "FAI" classes.

Tim EY

Impressive - Tim's example rightly takes the wind out of the argument
that the US needs a separate Club Class based on the belief that Club
Class gliders can't go out on "big boy" tasks.

9B

9B,

I disagree. *Those of us who support a Club Class in America aren't
concerned about the length of the task called. *Heck no. *What we want
is the ability to call Racing Tasks (also called Assigned Tasks)
instead of just Turn Area Tasks and Modified Assigned Tasks. *We also
want a group of gliders more closely matched in performance. *And, we
would like to get a handle on the assignment of handicaps. *Since many
other countries already fly Club Class, I think they are using an IGC
based system of assigning handicaps. *Is it any better than the Carl
Herald (sp?) system (and modified Carl Herald numbers) that we now
use? *I hope so. *And maybe we here in the US can start using the IGC
handicaps for future Club Class races.

I flew in the First United States Club Class Race in Cordele, Georgia
just a couple of weeks back and it was real fun to line up on the grid
and not see a bunch of ASW-27's, Duo Discii, Ventus V2's, Discus D2's,
JS1's, 304s', Diana's, etc in our class. *The weather cooperated one
day for a real assigned task to be called. *Hallelujah!
Unfortunately, the Cordele weather of legend didn't show up and the
three other days we flew, we had Turn Area Tasks. *But at least our
CD, Sam Giltner, kept the circles small which gave us more of a chance
to stay and race together rather than spreading us out over many
square miles that really big circles can do.

I'm not concerned about "big boy" tasks. *Of course, any of my friends
who might be tasked to come get me might have a bit more concern...

Sincerely,
Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

I'll second all that. *Having flown in the same contest, it was really
cool to share thermals all the way around the course.
At one point I think there were 6 gliders (out of 17) all in one
thermal out on course. *At the end we all ended up
in adjacent fields (since only about 5 made it around thanks to a big
cloud shadow shooting most of us down).

The contest ended up being much more competitive than sports class
contests I've flown. *Being that it was
the first in the US it took on something of a "national competition"
character, and it attracted pilots
from all across the country and Canada too. *Many mentioned 15+ hour
drives to get to the contest.

Sports class still has its place. *It might be a better venue for
someone starting out to have easier tasks
to fly. *If our assigned task had been called as a 3 turn MAT a larger
number of pilots may have made it back
after 1 or 2 turnpoints because that would have been less challenging,
but where's the point in that when
you're trying to call a strong challenge for everyone?

-- Matt

Mostly I just thought I'd provoke a discussion. I'm pretty sure it HAS
been a past argument in favor of Club Class that older gliders can't
keep up with the new equipment and so need a narrower handicap range
so we can call ASTs without a lot of landouts. A portion of that
argument now appears to lean in the opposite direction, that having
more landouts is a good thing. Certainly ASTs generally lead to more
landouts, but it's not so much due to range of handicaps - the big
variable in task speed is pilot skill/experience, not glider
performance (with the exception of something like a Twin Astir - XS/TF
you listening?).

The argument in favor of ASTs and landouts reflects a renewed
Darwinian fervor in the sport. The general trend in soaring is to try
to reduce the number of landouts as it is generally viewed as raising
the luck factor and reducing competition over the length of a contest.
The recent rule changes to increase distance points is indicative of
this viewpoint. Increasing landouts also has safety implications. I
think it stands to reason that contests with a lot more landouts would
drive down participation as "crewless" pilots (whose numbers have gone
up dramatically since the mid-90s) would race less frequently. To make
it work in the FAI classes ASTs tend to get called on days when the
conditions are predictable and the times on task tend to run lower
that the other task types as a way to ensure fewer landouts. I
personally like ASTs on occasion when the weather is good, but I also
feel like they are lesser tests of piloting skill because there is a
lot less decision-making involved because there is less opportunity to
read the weather and pick a course that takes best advantage of
conditions across the task area. Much as we all like the social
experience of seeing a competitor or two out on course, AST's also
tend to lead to more leeching, which reduces the test of individual
skill. The trend in the sport is to try to split the field up more not
bunch the gliders together.

Of course the Europeans tend to call longer tasks, perhaps more ASTs
too. They also have more landouts, but they either don't have or are
unconcerned the way we are about the effects on safety and
participation. It is a reasonable question whether we should call more
Euro-style tasks in the US and what that would mean for participation
and testing of pilot skill. Should we be testing for physical stamina
in a contest?

I agree with BB's assessment - we would be well advised to monitor the
trends. Cordele had good participation and a good outcome - despite
the weather. The fact that it drew from such great distances
underscores the passion of it's adherents, but also raises some
questions about the impact of expanding Club Class to Regionals
broadly. I continue to have serious concerns about the fragmentation
of contests (by having Sports AND Club Classes represented), or the
progressive exclusion of pilots who have Sports Class, but not Club
Class, gliders. My bigger concern is that we start hearing arguments
for restricting WGC Club Class team member selection to pilots who fly
in Club Class gliders. I for one would want to make sure that we draw
from the bigger pool of pilots to ensure that Club Class doesn't serve
a narrow agenda of reducing competition to win that team spot.

9B

Gentleman:

Perhaps my first post was mildly misunderstood. While it is great that
Club Class ships can perform like the big boys in the right hands, my
main point was not that our ships are capable of feats like the newer
ships, but rather was that we completed, at a fast speed, a called
ASSIGNED TASK (!!!) of 498km in Club Class Worlds. Getting to fly AT's
in club class ships is part of the fun of this class. In sports, it is
all theoretical racing, very rarely real racing. That takes much of
the fun out of it for me anyways.

If I had not been working weekends all spring (rowing coach), I would
definitely hauled my ass and my glider out to Cordele to have gotten
in on this 1st.

ASIDE: Rules Committee, why do we have increasing numbers of big,
popular contests in the spring when young people with real jobs and
families are stuck with school schedules or ther conflicts and have to
miss this stuff???

Getting to race against one's own and the ability to get to fly
assigned tasks against like competition (glider wise) is VERY
EXCITING. Any of the doubters should try it before they get all
defensive that the Club Class is going to eat another classes lunch.
Myabe the other classes lunch needs to be eaten inorder to breathe
more life into the other classes???

As far as Markus' stats at the last two WGC's go, some of those speed
tasks in Vinon were more or less Racing tasks - thereby skewing the
task calling way in the direction of assigned tasks in club class in
Europe

To 9B and BB and other doubters, why is there this constant drumbeat
in your posts about the evils of "specialisation" in the club class
and against the "club class specialist"???

What makes this any different from the pilot who owns a ASW-27 0 if
you are serious you are going to compete in 15m, or the pilot in a new
shiny ASG-29 - if you are serious you are going to compete in 18m.
Yeah, your ships are good enough to also swing into some other fai
classes should you wish. If youa re truly serious about flying and
winning open class, shouldn't you do it in an ASW-22 or Nimbus 4?

BUT for all of us in 1st/2nd generation glass ships, the only truly
fair and nearly head-to-head racing to be had is in a CLUB CLASS as it
is run trhoughout the rest of the world.

Flame shield on to high - but super-kudos to Sam Glitner et al for
succeeding and commiting to the Club Class idea in reality, when I
have only been able to beat the drum for it in writing. Great job
guys.

EY


On May 28, 8:48*am, wrote:
Back at the 2006 Club Class Worlds in Vinon France we went on a 498km
assigned task, in thunderstorms, and I think I pushed my Libelle
around at @ 113kmh - and that only gave me 5th or 6th on the day.
Still - shows that "old" gliders can certainly go out on long,
assigned tasks like the "FAI" classes.

Tim EY

On May 28, 6:27*am, Bob wrote:



Check out the website for the German 2009 Club Class Championships!
Sorry it is in German but a translator will let you see the important
info. The impressive 504KM task at 95kmh in a Libelle.http://www.lsv-schwarzwald.de/pages/dmwinzeln2009.php/

Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -