Club Class vs. Sports Class

OK, so I made a long post in one thread about competition classes...
5U started another thread about the Rules Committee and I was really
tempted to respond to Karl's comments there; but I didn't want to
hijack the topic. So I'll post this in a new topic instead:

I'm a low-time glider pilot (though I've had a number of 300+km
flights this summer), and a newcomer to competition in gliders.
However, I have extensive experience with competition in various forms
of Auto-Racing. I've seen what works and what doesn't, and have
helped establish rules for successful classes (such as the wildly
popular "SpecMiata" class).

I don't know all of the ins and outs of Glider Competition yet, so I'm
not going to try to fix anything I don't fully understand - but I'd
like to make a few observations about the Club Class vs. Sports Class
issue:

1) I strongly believe in a "run what ya brung" class. Its especially
helpful for new people to competition to have a straightforward class
that allows someone to show up with almost ANY glider and be legal to
compete. Handicapped classes do this (even if the system isn't
perfect and the playing-field isn't 100% level).

Handicapped classes that specifically exclude certain aircraft _don't_
meet this requirement, though. Excluding fancy aircraft does not
automatically limit you to less-experienced pilots or casual pilots.
And the aircraft you fly does not determine your skill level. A rich
ex-Microsoftie near me is looking at buying a DG-1000 before he even
learns to fly; but do you really think that the aircraft will
automatically make him a better pilot the first time he flies a race?
Would he really be better off if he were shoved into some "expert
handicapped" class with only high-dollar aircraft in his first
competition? By the same token, Karl S could probably take a Libelle
201 and stomp me in my DG-300 (even with appropriate handicaps)...
Also, your total-time or total number of competitions does not
determine your skill-level either!

2) New pilots need to have a fun atmosphere where they feel that they
can do well. But they don't need to _win_ to have a good time, and
trying to "rig" the rules or classes to give newcomers a better shot
at winning is just plain backwards! Competition is about people doing
their best; not about coddling people or giving them a special
advantage that throws the rest of the competition out of whack.

Of course, this doesn't mean that we throw new pilots "to the sharks"
and make them feel helpless. But we should find ways to make the
competition fun for them, and encourage them to STRIVE to get better
and rise to the top over time. No one expects rookie basketball
players to be better than NBA All-Stars. No one expects every first-
year QB to put up Brett Favre passing-numbers. No one expects
newcomers to the PGA to out-shoot Tiger Woods. Yet in all of these
venues, the first-timer AND the old-veteran compete on the same court
or the same course or in the same stadium; often head-to-head with
each other. Even though we aren't paid to be on TV like these other
sports, we're a legitimate sport that requires both talent and skill;
and people should expect that they have to work to become #1 just like
these "Pro Athletes" have to.

Like I said, if people are concerned about the newbies going up
against the top competitors, then the focus should be on how to make
the newcomers feel good and get rewarded for their attempts to get
better. "Rookie" awards, "Most Improved" awards, and active
encouragement by the veterans are all ways to do this. Newcomers
should also be encouraged to compare their standings (unofficially) to
other first-timers, not just the entire field. And I'm sure there are
many more ideas that folks can come up with...

3) If people feel that the handicap is out-of-whack or unfairly
rewards a particular make/model, then they need to speak up (in a
reasonable tone of voice), present good evidence, and go through the
proper channels to try to get the handicap reviewed and revised. NOT
just for that one "troublesome" make/model, but for the entire field.
In auto-racing we would do this for certain handicapped classes every
1 - 3 years. Of course, when looking at results you always have to
try to take pilot skill into account, in addition to the raw
performance of a glider. This makes the handicapping tricky and a bit
of an art-form; but it can be done.

Finally: The idea of a handicapping system is NOT to level the
playing-field 100%, or to give everyone a "good chance to win".
There's just no way to be perfect with such a diverse group (both with
cars and gliders, _and_ with varying levels of pilot skill)! A good
handicapping system should give folks with similar skill-levels a
"legitimate shot" at finishing in a similar position on the
leaderboard despite flying different equipment. A good measure of a
handicap is to imagine the perennial top-10 competitors shuffling into
different gliders - if you think they could still finish at the top of
the group, then the handicap is doing its job.

Anyone think I'm way-off-base here?

Thanks, take care,

--Noel

On Sep 23, 12:55*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
OK, so I made a long post in one thread about competition classes...
5U started another thread about the Rules Committee and I was really
tempted to respond to Karl's comments there; but I didn't want to
hijack the topic. *So I'll post this in a new topic instead:

I'm a low-time glider pilot (though I've had a number of 300+km
flights this summer), and a newcomer to competition in gliders.
However, I have extensive experience with competition in various forms
of Auto-Racing. *I've seen what works and what doesn't, and have
helped establish rules for successful classes (such as the wildly
popular "SpecMiata" class).

I don't know all of the ins and outs of Glider Competition yet, so I'm
not going to try to fix anything I don't fully understand - but I'd
like to make a few observations about the Club Class vs. Sports Class
issue:

1) *I strongly believe in a "run what ya brung" class. *Its especially
helpful for new people to competition to have a straightforward class
that allows someone to show up with almost ANY glider and be legal to
compete. *Handicapped classes do this (even if the system isn't
perfect and the playing-field isn't 100% level).

Handicapped classes that specifically exclude certain aircraft _don't_
meet this requirement, though. *Excluding fancy aircraft does not
automatically limit you to less-experienced pilots or casual pilots.
And the aircraft you fly does not determine your skill level. *A rich
ex-Microsoftie near me is looking at buying a DG-1000 before he even
learns to fly; but do you really think that the aircraft will
automatically make him a better pilot the first time he flies a race?
Would he really be better off if he were shoved into some "expert
handicapped" class with only high-dollar aircraft in his first
competition? *By the same token, Karl S could probably take a Libelle
201 and stomp me in my DG-300 (even with appropriate handicaps)...
Also, your total-time or total number of competitions does not
determine your skill-level either!

2) *New pilots need to have a fun atmosphere where they feel that they
can do well. *But they don't need to _win_ to have a good time, and
trying to "rig" the rules or classes to give newcomers a better shot
at winning is just plain backwards! *Competition is about people doing
their best; not about coddling people or giving them a special
advantage that throws the rest of the competition out of whack.

Of course, this doesn't mean that we throw new pilots "to the sharks"
and make them feel helpless. *But we should find ways to make the
competition fun for them, and encourage them to STRIVE to get better
and rise to the top over time. *No one expects rookie basketball
players to be better than NBA All-Stars. *No one expects every first-
year QB to put up Brett Favre passing-numbers. *No one expects
newcomers to the PGA to out-shoot Tiger Woods. *Yet in all of these
venues, the first-timer AND the old-veteran compete on the same court
or the same course or in the same stadium; often head-to-head with
each other. *Even though we aren't paid to be on TV like these other
sports, we're a legitimate sport that requires both talent and skill;
and people should expect that they have to work to become #1 just like
these "Pro Athletes" have to.

Like I said, if people are concerned about the newbies going up
against the top competitors, then the focus should be on how to make
the newcomers feel good and get rewarded for their attempts to get
better. *"Rookie" awards, "Most Improved" awards, and active
encouragement by the veterans are all ways to do this. *Newcomers
should also be encouraged to compare their standings (unofficially) to
other first-timers, not just the entire field. *And I'm sure there are
many more ideas that folks can come up with...

3) *If people feel that the handicap is out-of-whack or unfairly
rewards a particular make/model, then they need to speak up (in a
reasonable tone of voice), present good evidence, and go through the
proper channels to try to get the handicap reviewed and revised. *NOT
just for that one "troublesome" make/model, but for the entire field.
In auto-racing we would do this for certain handicapped classes every
1 - 3 years. *Of course, when looking at results you always have to
try to take pilot skill into account, in addition to the raw
performance of a glider. *This makes the handicapping tricky and a bit
of an art-form; but it can be done.

Finally: *The idea of a handicapping system is NOT to level the
playing-field 100%, or to give everyone a "good chance to win".
There's just no way to be perfect with such a diverse group (both with
cars and gliders, _and_ with varying levels of pilot skill)! *A good
handicapping system should give folks with similar skill-levels a
"legitimate shot" at finishing in a similar position on the
leaderboard despite flying different equipment. *A good measure of a
handicap is to imagine the perennial top-10 competitors shuffling into
different gliders - if you think they could still finish at the top of
the group, then the handicap is doing its job.

Anyone think I'm way-off-base here?

Thanks, take care,

--Noel

Well stated.
UH

On Sep 23, 12:55*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:

Handicapped classes that specifically exclude certain aircraft _don't_
meet this requirement, though. *Excluding fancy aircraft does not
automatically limit you to less-experienced pilots or casual pilots.
And the aircraft you fly does not determine your skill level. *A rich
ex-Microsoftie near me is looking at buying a DG-1000 before he even
learns to fly; but do you really think that the aircraft will
automatically make him a better pilot the first time he flies a race?
Would he really be better off if he were shoved into some "expert
handicapped" class with only high-dollar aircraft in his first
competition? *By the same token, Karl S could probably take a Libelle
201 and stomp me in my DG-300 (even with appropriate handicaps)...
Also, your total-time or total number of competitions does not
determine your skill-level either!


--Noel

Hi Noel,

A good post, and if I could just add one piece of context here to
consider. The reason for establishing handicap "sub-classes" such as
the club class is that there is such a diverse range of performance
out there in gliders that it becomes impossible at some point to run a
"race" in the traditional sense. An extreme example that is oft-
cited is the "1-26 vs. Nimbus argument." It's pretty clear that on
a day with strong winds and widely spaced thermals, no amount of
handicapping will make the 1-26 even remotely capable of getting
around a course that might be a walk in the park for the Nimbus.
Even with turn areas and MATs, there are some days when the required
performance is more than the 1-26 can muster (not that some 1-26
drivers aren't game for the challenge).

On a similar note, there is a big difference in the tactics of flying
when you can more-or-less stay with the pack than when you can't.
It's reasonably well accepted that, on balance, flying with a good
gaggle will get you home faster than struggling on your own. So, if
you don't have a pretty good chance of staying in contact with others,
you're really not participating in the same game.

It all sort of boils down to what we are trying to achieve. If we're
having a "fun race" where the handicapping should work more often than
not, then it's probably okay to have a very wide range of ships. But
if you are looking for a race with a reasonably level playing field,
then I suspect that sub-classes based on a range of handicaps is the
only way to go.

P3

I encourage everyone to realize that, when considering the matter at
hand, we realize it does not necessitate an "either/or" conclusion:
Sports Class and Club Class can coexist. The support of a Club Class
here in the U.S. is NOT ipso facto the death of Sports Class.

Alternatively, it may actually invigorate grass roots participation.

Ray Cornay
LS-4 RD

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 11:49:33 -0700, cornay wrote:

I encourage everyone to realize that, when considering the matter at
hand, we realize it does not necessitate an "either/or" conclusion:
Sports Class and Club Class can coexist. The support of a Club Class
here in the U.S. is NOT ipso facto the death of Sports Class.

Noel, another data point: Club Class is built round lower performance
gliders because, as I understand it, it was dreamt up as a way to let
owners of older gliders compete on a more or less even footing, while
those flying modern aircraft can fly in Standard, 15m Racing, 18m and
Open classes. I don't think cost came into the Club thinking though, of
course typically Club gliders are cheaper.

I don't understand how Sport class is used in the US, but in the UK all
gliders are handicapped so that the national ladder isn't a nonsense.
This handicap has another use too. My club runs a Regionals which is
split into Club and Sport classes on the glider handicap. This is done
precisely to avoid the 1-26 vs Nimbus problem and to make the handicap
setter's task possible. Before you ask, we do indeed have everything from
Libelles to ASH-25s and Nimbus 3s entering the Regionals.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Just to throw my 2 cents into this debate...

I come at this as a former US Club Class Team member who owns a club
class glider and loves the club class concept BUT one that has put
himself on the "Black List" of pilots banned from competing in Club
Class due to flying another WGC in a non-club, world, junior class. I
would definitely fly a Club Class event here in the US rather than a
Sports Class event at any level - it is fairer! Even more so at a Club
Class Nationals if I could get back on the team ;-(

Getting a US Club Class Nationals (integrated with US Sports Nats
which I support as a 1st step to possible independence of the class)
will allow people who fly club class ships the opportunity for fairer
racing amongst a smaller range of handicapped ships AND allow for
flying Assigned Tasks (AT's) like the rest of the classes here in the
US get to fly. Flying AT's is fun and really lets you measure your
skills on a fixed course on any particular day against the best pilots
who fly. I know that there are those who would ban all AT-type tasks
in the interest of safety, but they are fun AND the Club Class around
the world lets older gliders fly AT's whereas our Sports Class makes
this fairly impossible or extremely unfair to the "lower" performance
ships.

Getting to the Team topoic, one thing I beleive our club class team
members are missing from their experience when they go to Club Class
Worlds is that, coming out of the US Sports Class, many of them HAVE
NEVER FLOWN an Assigned Task in a club class ship in their qualifiying
for the team. And if they are a Sports Class only competitior having
flown contests only in Sports Class, they will NEVER have flown an AT
until they get sent on a 500km AT in the mountains of France with
thunderstorms likely (as was done in France 2006).

Getting competitive pilots on the US Club Class Team requires having
practice and experience at Club Class racing prior to getting
overseas. The only way this works is to enable Club Class pilots to be
better developed here at home. How we do this is to provide for Club
Class contests here at home. Whether or not they are integrated with
other classes at the national level or as a stand alone nationals is
irrelevant. The need for the class both to better develop our team
members AND to provide for better and fairer racing for all who wish
to should be the end goal here.

One additional thing that never gets said in this debate is that the
Ruels Committeee has no way of knowing what non-competition pilots
would be spurred into club class flying if the Club Class was added
tot he list of competing classes. If they send the SRA poll to
existent contest pilots only and you ask to add another class... well
then off course you are going to perceiving a further fracturing of
the currently existing base of contest pilots.

The question that needs to be asked and has never been fairly
addressed by the SRA poll is the following: If you are a glider pilot
having access to or flying a club class-type glider and do not
currently compete: Would the addition of Club Class events at the
regional and national level encourage you to get racing?

Get me a meaningful answer to that question and we may see that adding
Club Class may, in fact, expand the base of contest pilots and then
everyone wins. We just dont know and fears of "further dividing up"
the existing contest pilot population are unfounded until we get that
answer.

Tim McAllister EY

On Sep 24, 11:49*am, Tim wrote:
Just to throw my 2 cents into this debate...

I come at this as a former US Club Class Team member who owns a club
class glider and loves the club class concept BUT one that has put
himself on the "Black List" of pilots banned from competing in Club
Class due to flying another WGC in a non-club, world, junior class. I
would definitely fly a Club Class event here in the US rather than a
Sports Class event at any level - it is fairer! Even more so at a Club
Class Nationals if I could get back on the team ;-(

Getting a US Club Class Nationals (integrated with US Sports Nats
which I support as a 1st step to possible independence of the class)
will allow people who fly club class ships the opportunity for fairer
racing amongst a smaller range of handicapped ships AND allow for
flying Assigned Tasks (AT's) like the rest of the classes here in the
US get to fly. Flying AT's is fun and really lets you measure your
skills on a fixed course on any particular day against the best pilots
who fly. I know that there are those who would ban all AT-type tasks
in the interest of safety, but they are fun AND the Club Class around
the world lets older gliders fly AT's whereas our Sports Class makes
this fairly impossible or extremely unfair to the "lower" performance
ships.

Getting to the Team topoic, one thing I beleive our club class team
members are missing from their experience when they go to Club Class
Worlds is that, coming out of the US Sports Class, many of them HAVE
NEVER FLOWN an Assigned Task in a club class ship in their qualifiying
for the team. And if they are a Sports Class only competitior having
flown contests only in Sports Class, they will NEVER have flown an AT
until they get sent on a 500km AT in the mountains of France with
thunderstorms likely (as was done in France 2006).

Getting competitive pilots on the US Club Class Team requires having
practice and experience at Club Class racing prior to getting
overseas. The only way this works is to enable Club Class pilots to be
better developed here at home. How we do this is to provide for Club
Class contests here at home. Whether or not they are integrated with
other classes at the national level or as a stand alone nationals is
irrelevant. *The need for the class both to better develop our team
members AND to provide for better and fairer racing for all who wish
to should be the end goal here.

One additional thing that never gets said in this debate is that the
Ruels Committeee has no way of knowing what non-competition pilots
would be spurred into club class flying if the Club Class was added
tot he list of competing classes. If they send the SRA poll to
existent contest pilots only and you ask to add another class... well
then off course you are going to perceiving a further fracturing of
the currently existing base of contest pilots.

The question that needs to be asked and has never been fairly
addressed by the SRA poll is the following: If you are a glider pilot
having access to or flying a club class-type glider and do not
currently compete: Would the addition of Club Class events at the
regional and national level encourage you to get racing?

Get me a meaningful answer to that question and we may see that adding
Club Class may, in fact, expand the base of contest pilots and then
everyone wins. We just dont know and fears of "further dividing up"
the existing contest pilot population are unfounded until we get that
answer.

Tim McAllister EY

Tim makes some excellent points.
It should be noted, however, that the same discrimination against
previous US team members(other than Club) being on the Club team,
helped open the door for Tim, and some others, to get to go to the
"Big Show". This policy may not put the best pilots in the US on the
team, but it does provide a way to develop new talent. Sadly, mot
enough pilots seem to be aware, or interested, in this opportunity.
AST experience. I don't know of any Club team member who has not had
AST experience. It is true that a pilot coming up only in Sports could
end up in this situation in the future. I know Tim had it because I
watched him fly his Libelle against current technology ships and get
his a** handed to him. He smiled all the way, had fun, and learned a
lot.
Tim's point about about the question of who isn't coming now and would
if we had an active Club class is a good one which was on the poll
draft list at one time and not used. Clearly this is a key point. The
single largest driving force for creating another class is if it will
increase participation enough to justify the offsetting negatives.
If you are a pilot who would fall into this catagory, we would like to
hear from you, so please ring in at on this.
I'll report back later on what I hear.
Thanks for ringing in Tim.
UH

On Sep 24, 8:49*am, Tim wrote:
Just to throw my 2 cents into this debate...

I come at this as a former US Club Class Team member who owns a club
class glider and loves the club class concept BUT one that has put
himself on the "Black List" of pilots banned from competing in Club
Class due to flying another WGC in a non-club, world, junior class. I
would definitely fly a Club Class event here in the US rather than a
Sports Class event at any level - it is fairer! Even more so at a Club
Class Nationals if I could get back on the team ;-(

Getting a US Club Class Nationals (integrated with US Sports Nats
which I support as a 1st step to possible independence of the class)
will allow people who fly club class ships the opportunity for fairer
racing amongst a smaller range of handicapped ships AND allow for
flying Assigned Tasks (AT's) like the rest of the classes here in the
US get to fly. Flying AT's is fun and really lets you measure your
skills on a fixed course on any particular day against the best pilots
who fly. I know that there are those who would ban all AT-type tasks
in the interest of safety, but they are fun AND the Club Class around
the world lets older gliders fly AT's whereas our Sports Class makes
this fairly impossible or extremely unfair to the "lower" performance
ships.

Getting to the Team topoic, one thing I beleive our club class team
members are missing from their experience when they go to Club Class
Worlds is that, coming out of the US Sports Class, many of them HAVE
NEVER FLOWN an Assigned Task in a club class ship in their qualifiying
for the team. And if they are a Sports Class only competitior having
flown contests only in Sports Class, they will NEVER have flown an AT
until they get sent on a 500km AT in the mountains of France with
thunderstorms likely (as was done in France 2006).

Getting competitive pilots on the US Club Class Team requires having
practice and experience at Club Class racing prior to getting
overseas. The only way this works is to enable Club Class pilots to be
better developed here at home. How we do this is to provide for Club
Class contests here at home. Whether or not they are integrated with
other classes at the national level or as a stand alone nationals is
irrelevant. *The need for the class both to better develop our team
members AND to provide for better and fairer racing for all who wish
to should be the end goal here.

One additional thing that never gets said in this debate is that the
Ruels Committeee has no way of knowing what non-competition pilots
would be spurred into club class flying if the Club Class was added
tot he list of competing classes. If they send the SRA poll to
existent contest pilots only and you ask to add another class... well
then off course you are going to perceiving a further fracturing of
the currently existing base of contest pilots.

The question that needs to be asked and has never been fairly
addressed by the SRA poll is the following: If you are a glider pilot
having access to or flying a club class-type glider and do not
currently compete: Would the addition of Club Class events at the
regional and national level encourage you to get racing?

Get me a meaningful answer to that question and we may see that adding
Club Class may, in fact, expand the base of contest pilots and then
everyone wins. We just dont know and fears of "further dividing up"
the existing contest pilot population are unfounded until we get that
answer.

Tim McAllister EY

You've been on the team so your view automatically gets my attention
Tim.

One way to test most of your ideas would be to at least do a separate
scoring for Club Class ships within the next Sports Nationals - it
wouldn't take any rules changes to do it and you could even give out a
Joe Giltner-type award for the Club Class "winner". It wouldn't give
the AST experience you're looking for, but call a few MATs with more
than a couple of assigned turnpoints and you'll get most of the
effect. I find the AST the easiest to fly - dodging weather not
withstanding - but I grew up in racing with only ASTs so I'm used to
it. Back then just navigating the course was often my biggest
challenge. :-)

I still think at the regional level you are going to divide up the
classes too much and that overall Sports Class is a better solution to
the challenges facing soaring competition in the US, as well as for
picking US team members.

9B

On Sep 24, 3:22*pm, wrote:

I still think at the regional level you are going to divide up the
classes too much and that overall Sports Class is a better solution to
the challenges facing soaring competition in the US, as well as for
picking US team members.

As a newcomer (who thinks international competiton is cool but
realizes that it is highly unlikely that I'll do it), I couldn't agree
more with 9B's comments.

The US Team comprises such a small percentage of the glider-pilots in
the USA. Its a point of pride to have top finishers at the
International competiton; but I don't want to see my Regionals suffer
just so a a couple of different names get to go overseas once every
year or two.

And the issue of participation goes beyond the "number of entrants per
class" issue. It also speaks to the QUALITY of the pilots I fly
against... If they're scattered between too many classes then I'm not
really getting a chance to fly against the best, am I?

--Noel

On Sep 23, 12:55*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:

1) *I strongly believe in a "run what ya brung" class.

Noel,

I am a long time sports class pilot, flying a Grob 102 and would love
a "club" class so that I would be scored more fairly, but I would miss
flying with my friends that have non-club qualifying gliders.

On balance, I would keep the classes combined.



2) *New pilots need to have a fun atmosphere where they feel that they
can do well. *But they don't need to _win_ to have a good time,

But long time pilots that fly low level equipment must be able to win,
if they are flying the best at that contest.



3) *If people feel that the handicap is out-of-whack or unfairly ...

The problem is that the handicapping should really depend on the
weather conditions, a single number handicap only works well within a
small range of handicaps. Especially for a weather driven sport.

Finally: *The idea of a handicapping system is NOT to level the
playing-field 100%,

Yes the idea IS to level the playing field between different aircraft,
leaving pilot ability the determining factor. So that the better pilot
wins.

It is very hard to have any semblance of fairness when the rating
spread is as wide as a Nimbus 3 against a ASK 14.


--Noel

Thanks
Todd Smith
3S