Instrument PIC logging for the experts

The pilot in the left seat has his PPL, no instrument rating, and is
practicing flying under the hood. His buddy is in the right seat, PPL
+ instrument rating.

The left seat pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls, so he
logs PIC. The safety pilot in the right seat was designated as PIC
before the flight, therefore, as acting PIC, he logs PIC.

They fly into IMC. The guy in the left seat is still controlling the
airplane, so he still gets to log PIC. Now, since the flight has gone
into IMC, there's no longer a safety pilot requirement. So the guy in
the right seat no longer gets to log PIC, since his presence is now
superflous.

Who's ACTING PIC now? The guy who's logging PIC in the left seat does
not have an instrument rating so he can't ACT as PIC...but he's the
one at the controls. Does the guy in the guy in right seat retain the
ACTING PIC title, even though he can't log that PIC time?

Alex

the pilot acting as PIC.. in the right seat.. (and we presume not an
instructor based on your scenario).. screwed up big time and allowed the
hooded pilot to fly into IMC conditions without a clearance..

without referencing the regs, I'd say the Instrument rated pilot is now the
PIC by default..

be interesting to see what the experts have to say..

BT

"Koopas Ly" wrote in message
om...
The pilot in the left seat has his PPL, no instrument rating, and is
practicing flying under the hood. His buddy is in the right seat, PPL
+ instrument rating.

The left seat pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls, so he
logs PIC. The safety pilot in the right seat was designated as PIC
before the flight, therefore, as acting PIC, he logs PIC.

They fly into IMC. The guy in the left seat is still controlling the
airplane, so he still gets to log PIC. Now, since the flight has gone
into IMC, there's no longer a safety pilot requirement. So the guy in
the right seat no longer gets to log PIC, since his presence is now
superflous.

Who's ACTING PIC now? The guy who's logging PIC in the left seat does
not have an instrument rating so he can't ACT as PIC...but he's the
one at the controls. Does the guy in the guy in right seat retain the
ACTING PIC title, even though he can't log that PIC time?

Alex

They fly into IMC. I'll assume =with= a clearance, since it was unspecified
that it was without one.

With a clearance, only the instrument rated (right seat) pilot can BE PIC.
When in the clouds, it is still PIC.

However, he can't log PIC time. Again this stems from the confusion between
"being" and "logging", which would not exist if different words were used. The
left seat, non-rated sole manipulator can LOG PIC time. Of course, he can't
log dual.

Outside the clouds, and not on a clearance, the right seat safety pilot can log
PIC because he's acting as PIC of a crew of two. However, if the other pilot
had (prior) agreed to BE PIC, then the safety pilot can log SIC (required
crewmember). I got my first SIC time recently that way.

To clarify I'll change the words. "BEING Pilot in command" is now defined as
"being Top Dog" (TD). Top Dog time is not loggable. It just says who's in
charge. LOGGING PIC time is now defined as "logging HandsOn Time" (HOT).

So, you log HOT when you're flying by yourself.
You log HOT when you're Top Dog of a required crew.
You log HOT when you're hands-on flying, even if somebody else is Top Dog.
An instructor logs HOT when he or she is instructing, no matter who is Top Dog.

Nobody logs Top Dog time. It's just not loggable any more than the time you
spend eating a tuna sandwich is. (ok, they are both loggable, but neither log
entry is useful)

Jose

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"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...
[...]
Outside the clouds, and not on a clearance, the right seat safety pilot
can log
PIC because he's acting as PIC of a crew of two. However, if the other
pilot
had (prior) agreed to BE PIC, then the safety pilot can log SIC (required
crewmember).

[...]

Note that in the example given previously, the pilot under the hood is not
qualified to act as (be) PIC, and thus could not agree to be PIC. Only if
the pilot under the hood is qualified to act as (be) PIC could the safety
pilot log SIC.

Otherwise, all correct (and that part wasn't incorrect, except in context).
I hope everyone else followed it.

Pete

On 24 Nov 2003 19:58:22 -0800, (Koopas Ly) wrote:

Does the guy in the guy in right seat retain the
ACTING PIC title, even though he can't log that PIC time?

Yes

Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Koopas Ly" wrote in message om...

They fly into IMC. The guy in the left seat is still controlling the
airplane, so he still gets to log PIC. Now, since the flight has gone
into IMC, there's no longer a safety pilot requirement. So the guy in
the right seat no longer gets to log PIC, since his presence is now
superflous.

His presence isn't superfluous, it's just ceased to be an opreation requiring
more than one pilot, which is a logging issue only.


Who's ACTING PIC now? The guy who's logging PIC in the left seat does
not have an instrument rating so he can't ACT as PIC...but he's the
one at the controls. Does the guy in the guy in right seat retain the
ACTING PIC title, even though he can't log that PIC time?

Let's forget "acting" shall we. "acting" sounds like pretend. There is always
one and only one pilot in command during any point of a flight. This is the
person who is ultimately responsible, the one IN COMMAND. At all times
while on the IFR plan, your right seat pilot (whether safety pilot or not, whether
manipulating the controls or not), had better be the PILOT IN COMMAND.
He's the only one qualified. Logging is superfluous to this conce.t

So the guy in
the right seat no longer gets to log PIC, since his presence is now
superflous.

Actually, it's the guy in the left seat that is superfluous. The guy (or gal)
at the right is the Pilot In Command... the Head Honcho... the One In Charge...
the Top Banana... el Mucho Macho... the Big Dog.

He's very much required.

Jose



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"Teacherjh" wrote in message ...
So the guy in
the right seat no longer gets to log PIC, since his presence is now
superflous.

Actually, it's the guy in the left seat that is superfluous. The guy (or gal)
at the right is the Pilot In Command... the Head Honcho... the One In Charge...
the Top Banana... el Mucho Macho... the Big Dog.

I guess I picked the wrong week to give up sniffing glue.

(Teacherjh) wrote:

So, you log HOT when you're flying by yourself.
You log HOT when you're Top Dog of a required crew.
You log HOT when you're hands-on flying, even if somebody else is Top Dog.
An instructor logs HOT when he or she is instructing, no matter who is Top Dog.

Nobody logs Top Dog time. It's just not loggable any more than the time you
spend eating a tuna sandwich is.

Well. if we want to pick nits (and isn't that what all
"logging" threads are about :-), the pilot in the right seat
can log Top Dog time if the sole manipulator in the right
seat 1) is not PIC (by agreement), 2) can't be PIC (not
instrument rated, no medical, etc.) *and* 3) is not a pilot
(has no pilot certificate of any type).

The exact bounds of this type of legal logging (the sole
manipulator has a balloon rating?) are not currently known,
but it is certain that if the right seat person is under 14,
you can log the time even when you are not touching the
controls. The reason the FAA's Chief Counsel gave for
allowing this type of logging is specifically because the
right seat pilot is "Top Dog," as defined in this thread.
Todd Pattist
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
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Make a commitment to learn something from every flight.
Share what you learn.

Well. if we want to pick nits (and isn't that what all
"logging" threads are about :-), the pilot in the right seat
can log Top Dog time if the sole manipulator in the right
seat 1) is not PIC (by agreement), 2) can't be PIC (not
instrument rated, no medical, etc.) *and* 3) is not a pilot
(has no pilot certificate of any type).


Nope. TopDog is not loggable. Only HOT is loggable. If you're Top Dog (and
the situation is right) you log HOT, not Top Dog.

That's my point. HOT is what is loggable, TopDog is what you are.

I also think you meant "left" the second time you said "right".

Further, the *and* makes little sense. I think you menat "or". After all, if
the person in question is not a pilot, he can't be PIC anyway. And in any
case, you are mixing up PIC with TopDog and HOT. The point of doing TopDog and
HOT is to get away from the "PIC" word and express the same idea in a less
ambiguous context.

If the left seat person is not a pilot, OR isn't Top Dog, then the right seat
person has to be Top Dog. (that is, assuming there are only two dogs involved
But Top Dog doesn't get logged. Only HOT gets logged. Sometimes the Top
Dog can log HOT.

There can only be one Top Dog. However, in some cases both can log HOT. In
some cases, nobody can log HOT (something I find bizzare, but then again, this
is the FAA). But nobody ever logs Top Dog.

Jose



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