CFI logging instrument time

A CFI with airplane single-engine rating but not instrument-airplane (not a
CFII) gives flight instruction to a private pilot. Part of the flight is in
the clouds, with the private pilot flying. Can the CFI log instrument time
under FAR 61.51(g)(2):

"An authorized instructor may log instrument time when conducting instrument
flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions." ?

One can argue that a CFI without the CFII is not authorized to give
instrument flight instruction, and therefore can't log it. This leads to a
related question: Is this CFI exceeding his privileges (61.193, see also
61.1(b)(10) ) by providing such instruction (in or our of the clouds), such
as additional training to a pilot working on an instrument rating?

Please cite a reference if possible. I couldn't find this in the Part 61
FAQ (http://www1.faa.gov/avr/afs/afs800/docs/pt61FAQ.doc).

Barry

"Barry" wrote

"An authorized instructor may log instrument time when
conducting instrument flight instruction in actual instrument
flight conditions." ?

The required instruction given to a Student Pilot (PP) is not
Instrument Flight Instruction. The FAA uses different terminology
to distinguish it from Instrument Flight Training as follows:

(3) 3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the
control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to
instruments, including straight and level flight, constant airspeed
climbs and descents, turns to a heading, recovery from unusual flight
attitudes, radio communications, and the use of navigation
systems/facilities and radar services appropriate to instrument
flight;

Bob Moore

"Robert Moore" wrote in message . 8...

The required instruction given to a Student Pilot (PP) is not
Instrument Flight Instruction. The FAA uses different terminology
to distinguish it from Instrument Flight Training as follows:

Thats nice, but it has nothing to do with what he asked. No student
pilots were harmed in this process. The question is whether you he
can count instruction given in actual as insturment instruction without
an instrucment rating on his flight instructor certificate.

The requirement for an instrument rating seems to be solely for the
benefit of providing the instruction specifically required for the instrument
ratings (and instrument qualification on type ratings). It doesn't say
that this is the ONLY type of instrument instruction that exists.

Can an instructor without an instrument rating, given instrument instruction?
It would appear to be yes as long it's not the instruction specifically required
for the instructee to get his instrument rating.

"Ron Natalie" wrote

"Robert Moore" wrote
The required instruction given to a Student Pilot (PP) is not
Instrument Flight Instruction. The FAA uses different
terminology to distinguish it from Instrument Flight Training
as follows:

Thats nice, but it has nothing to do with what he asked. No
student pilots were harmed in this process. The question is
whether you he can count instruction given in actual as
insturment instruction without an instrucment rating on his
flight instructor certificate.

I had no intention of answering his question, just to point out
that he had used incorrect terminology in asking the question,
probably comfusing a proper answer.

Bob

A CFI can give instrument "training" and log it as instruction given. We do
it for every student and also for BFRs. A CFI without an instrument rating
on his instructors certificate can log instruction given in IMC, but he can
not log or give any of the 15 hours of instrument instruction required by
instrument students, and can not endorse any student for an instrument
knowledge or practical test.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply


"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...

"Robert Moore" wrote in message
. 8...

The required instruction given to a Student Pilot (PP) is not
Instrument Flight Instruction. The FAA uses different terminology
to distinguish it from Instrument Flight Training as follows:

Thats nice, but it has nothing to do with what he asked. No student
pilots were harmed in this process. The question is whether you he
can count instruction given in actual as insturment instruction without
an instrucment rating on his flight instructor certificate.

The requirement for an instrument rating seems to be solely for the
benefit of providing the instruction specifically required for the
instrument
ratings (and instrument qualification on type ratings). It doesn't say
that this is the ONLY type of instrument instruction that exists.

Can an instructor without an instrument rating, given instrument
instruction?
It would appear to be yes as long it's not the instruction specifically
required
for the instructee to get his instrument rating.

"Jim" wrote in message ...
A CFI can give instrument "training" and log it as instruction given. We do
it for every student and also for BFRs. A CFI without an instrument rating
on his instructors certificate can log instruction given in IMC, but he can
not log or give any of the 15 hours of instrument instruction required by
instrument students, and can not endorse any student for an instrument
knowledge or practical test.

Again, all very nice but it doesn't answer the original question.

A CFI with airplane single-engine rating but not instrument-airplane (not a
CFII) gives flight instruction [...] in the clouds, with the private pilot
flying.
Can the CFI log instrument time under FAR 61.51(g)(2):


My understanding is that the CFI can log it as instruction given, the student
can log it as dual received, but the instruction does not count towards the
instrument rating.

Nothing prevents even a private pilot from teaching anybody, but the
instruction given can't count as instruction towards ratings unless the
instructor is appropriately rated (or is that certificated?).

Jose



--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

If your in the clouds you were on an IFR flight plan and one of you two was
current?



Barry wrote:

A CFI with airplane single-engine rating but not instrument-airplane (not a
CFII) gives flight instruction to a private pilot. Part of the flight is in
the clouds, with the private pilot flying. Can the CFI log instrument time
under FAR 61.51(g)(2):

A CFI with airplane single-engine rating but not instrument-airplane
(not a CFII) gives flight instruction to a private pilot. Part of the
flight is in the clouds, with the private pilot flying. Can the CFI
log instrument time under FAR 61.51(g)(2):

If your in the clouds you were on an IFR flight plan and one of you two
was current?

Yes, the CFI is instrument current, has filed IFR, and acts as PIC while
giving flight instruction to the private pilot.

Barry

Barry first of all, the scenario is not possible, since to be a single
engine CFI, I believe you need to have a single engine instrument
rating... If somehow, the instructor is not instrument rated in the
airplane, he has no business being in IFR conditions...

John Price
CFII/AGI/IGI
http://home.att.net/~jm.price



"Barry" wrote in message
...
A CFI with airplane single-engine rating but not instrument-airplane (not
a
CFII) gives flight instruction to a private pilot. Part of the flight is
in
the clouds, with the private pilot flying. Can the CFI log instrument
time
under FAR 61.51(g)(2):

"An authorized instructor may log instrument time when conducting
instrument
flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions." ?

One can argue that a CFI without the CFII is not authorized to give
instrument flight instruction, and therefore can't log it. This leads to
a
related question: Is this CFI exceeding his privileges (61.193, see also
61.1(b)(10) ) by providing such instruction (in or our of the clouds),
such
as additional training to a pilot working on an instrument rating?

Please cite a reference if possible. I couldn't find this in the Part 61
FAQ (http://www1.faa.gov/avr/afs/afs800/docs/pt61FAQ.doc).

Barry