Standard rate turn in Boeing 757?

"John Gaquin" wrote in message ...
"Jon Woellhaf" wrote in message news:Ayqwc.7120

John, did you ever get to do one for real?

Nope. From intro flight to 747, I never had a catastrophic failure of any
kind. I'd love to think skill and professionalism had something to do with
it, but nobody would buy that song -- particularly the guy in the mirror.
Just pure good luck. :-) Had a few system failures, and a few
precautionary landings, but nothing officially an emergency. How dull.

Well obviously you didn't have a catastrophic failure since your
posting here. But no memorable problems with this machine is
unbelievable. I flew it for four years and had all kinds of
mechanical failures. We had an engine slam into reverse at FL180 and
the cowlings and reverser sleave fell into Brooklyn one night. It
sounds to me like you were not on the airplane very long. Were you
just a flight engineer? Or were you a pilot? Just give a straight
answer John. Your postings are very suspicious buddy.

pacplyer

"pacplyer" wrote in message
om...
[...] Your postings are very suspicious buddy.

Says the guy who posts anonymously. How ironic.

"Bob Moore" wrote in message
...
"Darrell" wrote
And in a true aileron roll you pull one negative G to hold
the point while inverted.

Darrell, how come you Air Force guys define rolls differently
than everyone else?



http://acro.harvard.edu/ACRO/acro_figures.html#rolls
Aileron rolls are flown with the rudder and elevator in
the neutral position during the roll. The aileron is
fully deflected in the direction of the roll. This is the
easiest of the rolls to fly.
The aileron roll is started by pulling the nose up to 20 - 30
degrees above the horizon. The elevator is then neutralized
and the aileron fully deflected in the direction of the roll.
The controls are maintained in that position till the roll is
completed. After the roll is completed the nose is usually
20 - 30 degrees below the horizon.
Slow rolls have to be flown normally on a straight line. The
roll rate has to be constant and the longitudinal axis of the
plane has to go straight.
This requires constantly changing rudder and elevator control
inputs throughout the roll. Hesitation or point rolls include
stops at certain roll angles.
------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.sunrise-aviation.com/Ailroll.html
As the name implies, the aileron roll is done with "normal"
inputs of aileron and rudder (in contrast to snap rolls).
At the point this maneuver is introduced to students in the
Sunrise Basic syllabus, no attempt is made to maintain altitude
during the roll. The result is a steady transition from climb
to descent until the aircraft regains upright flight. This
simplified approach to rolling is ideal for beginning aerobatic
pilots.
A further development of basic rolling technique introduces
forward elevator (and negative G) to eliminate altitude loss
while inverted. The result is a Slow Roll, introduced in the
Sunrise Intermediate syllabus. Once mastered, slow rolls
completely replace aileron rolls in the repertoires of most
pilots.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Bob Moore

Although pulling 1 negative g is definitely NOT done in an aileron roll,
you will note as well the discrepancy between the two examples you have
given to explain aileron rolls. The first calls for a complete neutral
rudder throughout the roll and the second calls for rudder and aileron
together.
The first example is totally incorrect both for aileron rolls AND in the
explanation for a slow roll.
In a true aileron roll, the nose is pulled and set as explained, but at
roll initiation, just enough inside rudder is used with inside aileron
to initiate the roll without adverse yaw, THEN the rudder is eliminated
as it would pull the nose down as the airplane goes toward knife edge
and beyond. Although it's true that you can do an aileron roll without
this initial use of inside rudder, it's considered a flaw, and pure
aileron will pull the nose to the outside of the roll and alter the
normal arc that should take the nose from it's position above the
horizon at roll onset, to where it must be below the horizon on
recovery. Initiating a pure aileron input without correction for yaw is
classified as an error in any competent aerobatic school. That being
said, holding in the inside rudder too long after initiation is ALSO
classified as an error :-) It should also be noted that it's perfectly
acceptable to execute an aileron roll varying the amounts of forward
stick and top rudder to allow a more EXACT roll while not crossing the
line to a slow roll. Basically, all you're doing in a true aileron roll
is allowing the nose to arc naturally from it's position over the
horizon back down to a position below the horizon without attempting to
PIN IT!
Now to slow rolls. A slow roll is NOT executed on a straight line as the
description states clearly. No airplane, regardless of it's wing design,
(symmetrical or asymmetrical) flies inverted at the same nose attitude
as level flight erect. The nose MUST be raised ABOVE the horizon in a
slow roll so that the airplane will be level as it passes through it's
inverted level flight attitude. You will find that the correct figure
for describing a slow roll is a letter D to the right or a reverse
letter D if to the left. The vertical line up must be flown before the
roll is initiated. The roll itself is done at the top apex of the D. The
curve of the D is absolutely mandatory if the airplane is to return to
it's beginning level flight attitude erect at the end of the roll.
Exactly how high above the horizon the apex of that D is will be a
function of individual wing design. For example, you do a slow roll a
lot closer to the inverted horizon in an Extra than you do in a P51
Mustang!
In other words, a slow roll can't be done on a straight line without
losing altitude. You MUST place the airplane at a point where it passes
through it's level flight inverted nose attitude and then bring it back
down again in the recovery to it's normal level flight attitude.
So I would grade the first explanation as incorrect on two counts.
The second one is more in line with reality.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

"pacplyer" wrote in message

.... It
sounds to me like you were not on the airplane very long. Were you
just a flight engineer? Or were you a pilot? Just give a straight
answer John. Your postings are very suspicious buddy.


A touch over three years, pac, about three and a half. As a pilot.

And what do you mean by "...just a flight engineer..."? Bet you make a lot
of friends among the crews you fly with carrying an attitude like that.

Nothing suspicious about my posts. Just a guy who went to work and flew
the plane. From 72 to 96 I never had any kind of catastrophic failure in
any airplane. Period. OTOH, you seem to have endless tales of horrible
events, dangerous circumstances, horrid weather, self-destructing aircraft,
incompetent crew members, etc, etc. Many of your posts involve
demonstrating how skillful you are and how bumbling someone else is.
Denigrating your F/O seems a recurring subject. In point of fact, your
posts sound a might suspicious to me. Nothing in your posting sounds like
any mature Captain I've ever encountered over the past thirty years.
Frankly, you sound to me like someone relatively new to the big leagues who
wants everyone to believe you're an old pro. I may be wrong, and hope I am,
and I really don't want to get into a debate about this, but that's the way
you come across to me.

"John Gaquin" wrote
I may be wrong, and hope I am, and I really don't want
to get into a debate about this, but that's the way
you come across to me.

I'm with you John.

Bob Moore

"Bob Moore" wrote in message
. 8...
"John Gaquin" wrote
I may be wrong, and hope I am, and I really don't want
to get into a debate about this, but that's the way
you come across to me.

I'm with you John.

Bob Moore

It is because the poster has never flown the airlines. A while back,
another guy said something to the effect, that he knows enough, he could
make people believe (fool them), he was really an airline pilot. He is so
busted, in my book. Remember saying that, Mr. Fake? I do.
--
Jim in NC


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Bob Moore wrote in message .8...
"John Gaquin" wrote
I may be wrong, and hope I am, and I really don't want
to get into a debate about this, but that's the way
you come across to me.

I'm with you John.


A nice little toy to look at turn rates here


http://www.csgnetwork.com/aircraftturninfocalc.html
should keep the pundits smiling

"John Gaquin" wrote in message ...
"pacplyer" wrote in message

.... It
sounds to me like you were not on the airplane very long. Were you
just a flight engineer? Or were you a pilot? Just give a straight
answer John. Your postings are very suspicious buddy.


A touch over three years, pac, about three and a half. As a pilot.

And what do you mean by "...just a flight engineer..."? Bet you make a lot
of friends among the crews you fly with carrying an attitude like that.

Were you Captain, First Officer, or Flight Engineer hired on the basis
of having a Comm pilot lic? My guess it that you were in the
non-flying seat. The reason I suspect this is you have this constant
need to sign your posts with B747 at the bottom. I've never seen a
747 driver feel the need to do this all the time. I have seen S/O's
go to the bar and pretend that they physically fly the airplane since
people don't understand the difference.



Nothing suspicious about my posts. Just a guy who went to work and flew
the plane. From 72 to 96 I never had any kind of catastrophic failure in
any airplane. Period. OTOH, you seem to have endless tales of horrible
events, dangerous circumstances, horrid weather, self-destructing aircraft,
incompetent crew members, etc, etc.

I do believe you were a crewmember on the airplane John. You must
have worked for a better outfit than I did if nothing ever went wrong.
But things do fall off airplanes and sometimes they are lost; I guess
you never read AW&ST. Since I got hired we had six hull losses, and
killed four people. Many others were injured.
International/MAC/supplemental freight flying is statisically much
more dangerous than any other type.

Many of your posts involve
demonstrating how skillful you are and how bumbling someone else is.
Denigrating your F/O seems a recurring subject. In point of fact, your
posts sound a might suspicious to me. Nothing in your posting sounds like
any mature Captain I've ever encountered over the past thirty years.
Frankly, you sound to me like someone relatively new to the big leagues who
wants everyone to believe you're an old pro. I may be wrong, and hope I am,
and I really don't want to get into a debate about this, but that's the way
you come across to me.

Fair enough John. It's clear you don't like my writing style. I just
use these forums as practice for writing. I use a certain amount of
literary creative licence in my stories, otherwise they would be dull.
I include memorable things that happened to me in my career which
started in 82'.

Best Regards,

pacplyer

Good point, Bob. I said to "hold the point" which is really a roll on a
point which is not necessary and seldom done in plain aileron rolls. To
roll on a point you do need to use top rudder at each 90 degree point and 1
negative G while inverted but... that's not what was asked. Another "senior
moment". Sorry.

--

B-58 Hustler History: http://members.cox.net/dschmidt1/
-

"Bob Moore" wrote in message
...
"Darrell" wrote
And in a true aileron roll you pull one negative G to hold
the point while inverted.

Darrell, how come you Air Force guys define rolls differently
than everyone else?



http://acro.harvard.edu/ACRO/acro_figures.html#rolls
Aileron rolls are flown with the rudder and elevator in
the neutral position during the roll. The aileron is
fully deflected in the direction of the roll. This is the
easiest of the rolls to fly.
The aileron roll is started by pulling the nose up to 20 - 30
degrees above the horizon. The elevator is then neutralized
and the aileron fully deflected in the direction of the roll.
The controls are maintained in that position till the roll is
completed. After the roll is completed the nose is usually
20 - 30 degrees below the horizon.
Slow rolls have to be flown normally on a straight line. The
roll rate has to be constant and the longitudinal axis of the
plane has to go straight.
This requires constantly changing rudder and elevator control
inputs throughout the roll. Hesitation or point rolls include
stops at certain roll angles.
------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.sunrise-aviation.com/Ailroll.html
As the name implies, the aileron roll is done with "normal"
inputs of aileron and rudder (in contrast to snap rolls).
At the point this maneuver is introduced to students in the
Sunrise Basic syllabus, no attempt is made to maintain altitude
during the roll. The result is a steady transition from climb
to descent until the aircraft regains upright flight. This
simplified approach to rolling is ideal for beginning aerobatic
pilots.
A further development of basic rolling technique introduces
forward elevator (and negative G) to eliminate altitude loss
while inverted. The result is a Slow Roll, introduced in the
Sunrise Intermediate syllabus. Once mastered, slow rolls
completely replace aileron rolls in the repertoires of most
pilots.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Bob Moore

EDR wrote in message ...
In article , Paul Tomblin
wrote:

As for what they're capable of, remember Tex Johnson(sp?) barrel rolled
the 707 prototype (the "Dash-80"). If you don't care if the plane is
usable again after the maneuver, I'm sure you could do a lot more abrupt
maneuvers than that.

Not necessarily... +1-G is +1-G.
The airplane doesn't know what attitude it's in as long as the proper
g-loading is maintained throughout the maneuver. The only variable is
the pilot's level of skill.

But that's just the cabin. The wing tips receive much higher G forces
in a roll. It depends how fast the roll is.

-Robert