Decent below MDA, Legal?

(Bravo8500) wrote:
In a recent FAA sponsored seminar that I attended, a retired Tower
Controller mentioned in his presentation that IMC flight in Class G
airspace without a clearance was actually legal as long as the
aircraft and pilot were both instrument qualified.

That's correct.

After I got home
that afternoon, I thought to myself that if that were the case, then
when I'm at MDA on my local uncontrolled airport's NDB approach, and I
don't see the runway but can see directly underneath me, I could
legally slip down below MDA to try to bust out.

Nope. The one and only difference between IFR flight in controlled and
uncontrolled airspace is that in uncontrolled (i.e. Class G) airspace,
you won't have an ATC clearance (i.e. 91.173 does not apply). All this
means is that ATC is not providing you with separation services. You
are still IFR, and everything else related to IFR still applies.

91.175 says you have to obey MDA's while making an instrument approach
in instrument conditions. 91.177 says you have to obey minimum
altitudes prescribed in part 97 (which in turn includes all the
published SIAPs by reference). There is nothing in either of those two
sections which says they don't apply in CGAS.

"Bravo8500" wrote in message
om...

In a recent FAA sponsored seminar that I attended, a retired Tower
Controller mentioned in his presentation that IMC flight in Class G
airspace without a clearance was actually legal as long as the
aircraft and pilot were both instrument qualified. In other words if I
wanted to I could take my current IFR rating, hop into a current IFR
aircraft, and fly all I wanted to in IMC as long as I remained in
Class G (uncontrolled) airspace.


No clearance is required, no clearance is even available, but you still must
adhere to the instrument flight rules.



I had never really thought of being
able to do this so it was a little shocking to hear. After I got home
that afternoon, I thought to myself that if that were the case, then
when I'm at MDA on my local uncontrolled airport's NDB approach, and I
don't see the runway but can see directly underneath me, I could
legally slip down below MDA to try to bust out. Why? At MDA, I'm below
the 700 foot floor of the Class E airspace which puts me in Class G.
This would be the case at almost all uncontrolled airports that have
published instrument approaches. Does this sound right?


It sounds right as long as you have VFR conditions at the MDA and remain in
VFR conditions to your destination. You can't fly along within 700 feet of
the surface in IMC in Class G airspace, FAR 91.177 still applies in Class G
airspace.

In a recent FAA sponsored seminar that I attended, a retired Tower
Controller mentioned in his presentation that IMC flight in Class G
airspace without a clearance was actually legal as long as the
aircraft and pilot were both instrument qualified.


Yes, but not really. The NTSB has ruled such activty as "Careless or
reckless", and violated pilots for it.

Greg, where can we view this ruling by the NTSB?
Do you or anyone have references to actual situations where pilots
have been violated using "careless and reckless" due to operating in
imc in uncontrolled airspace?
thanks, Stan
On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 06:06:41 GMT, Greg Esres
wrote:

In a recent FAA sponsored seminar that I attended, a retired Tower
Controller mentioned in his presentation that IMC flight in Class G
airspace without a clearance was actually legal as long as the
aircraft and pilot were both instrument qualified.


Yes, but not really. The NTSB has ruled such activty as "Careless or
reckless", and violated pilots for it.

In article ,
wrote:

Greg, where can we view this ruling by the NTSB?
Do you or anyone have references to actual situations where pilots
have been violated using "careless and reckless" due to operating in
imc in uncontrolled airspace?

The issue is not operating in IMC in uncontrolled airspace. The OP's
question revolved around descending below the MDA on an instrument
approach without having the runway environment in sight. That's illegal.

Sure, but I think the point here (definitely a "don't try this at
home" but an interesting theoretical point) is that if upon
reaching MDA, still in IMC, you cancel IFR (very quickly!)
then you would still be legal.

Whether this is wise is altogether a different point. However
if it is C&R then logically so is ANY uncontrolled IMC in
class G. Which is fine by me, I find the idea horrifying, even
if it is commonplace in the UK.

John

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:

Greg, where can we view this ruling by the NTSB?
Do you or anyone have references to actual situations where pilots
have been violated using "careless and reckless" due to operating in
imc in uncontrolled airspace?

The issue is not operating in IMC in uncontrolled airspace. The OP's
question revolved around descending below the MDA on an instrument
approach without having the runway environment in sight. That's illegal.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote
It sounds right as long as you have VFR conditions at the MDA
and remain in VFR conditions to your destination. You can't fly
along within 700 feet of the surface in IMC in Class G airspace,
FAR 91.177 still applies in Class G airspace.

But with regard to the original question, wouldn't the following
apply:

(a) Operation of aircraft at minimum altitudes. Except when necessary
for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft under IFR
below --

Bob Moore

"John Harper" wrote in message
news:1063025978.731057@sj-nntpcache-3...

Sure, but I think the point here (definitely a "don't try this at
home" but an interesting theoretical point) is that if upon
reaching MDA, still in IMC, you cancel IFR (very quickly!)
then you would still be legal.


It wouldn't be legal if the Class E floor is 700 AGL, as I believe it was in
the scenario provided here. The FARs still apply in Class G airspace,
including the one on minimum IFR altitudes. Ya gotta be at least 1000 feet
above the highest obstacle within 4 miles, and ya can't do that where
controlled airspace begins at 700 feet above the ground.

Greg, where can we view this ruling by the NTSB?

There is a website that has either all or a bunch of NTSB rulings. I
think there's a link from the FAA website or from the NTSB site, I
forget.

The case I have saved on my hard drive is Administrator vs. Murphy,
NTSB Order No. EA-3935, dated July 20, 1993.

It makes reference, however, to an earlier decision, Administrator
v. Vance, 5 NTSB 1037 (1986),

"Robert Moore" wrote in message
. 6...

But with regard to the original question, wouldn't the following
apply:

(a) Operation of aircraft at minimum altitudes. Except when necessary
for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft under IFR
below --


I should have been more clear. You'd have to cancel IFR upon reaching VMC
at the MDA and continue VFR to your destination.