Installing an ELT antenna.

Paul Remde wrote:
Beyond whether it is OK to do - it is also important to consider whether it
will work well when needed. The rubber duck antenna is for 118 to 136 MHz
while the ELT that Ron asked about transmits on both 121.5 and 243.0 MHz
simultaneously. It is important to use an antenna that will transmit on
those frequencies well in an emergency.

To be honest, I suspect some of us are giving a bit more consideration
to what is minimally necessary to meet the SSA rules and FAA
regulations, than we are to how well it might ultimately work if it is
ever actually needed...

Marc

Ron:

My ACK ELT antenna in my Nimbus 3 is installed lengthwise, in line with the
fuselage, under the instrument panel (glare shield) cover. I used plastic
tie wraps to secure it to the panel cover. By all reports it puts out a
good signal. My transponder antenna is a 2.5" stubby located vertically on
the fuselage aft of the turtle deck with a 10" aluminum pie plate ( from
the supermarket!) inside the fuselage surrounding the base of the
antenna ATC says it also puts out a decent signal.

Roy B.

Marc,

Perhaps we could have the SSA government liaison (or SRA dude) ask all
these questions directly to the FAA. Specifically:

Can a private pilot glider install his own ELT in his own experimental
glider and sign it off?
Does a TC'd glider need a 337 form completed and approved (major
alteration)?
Does a glider with an ELT installed have to meet all (or some) of the
requirements of 91.207?

With an official FAA answer to these questions, and perhaps some more I
didn't think of, we can avoid uncertainty over what rules apply and how
they apply, etc.

Jim





I think it is fairly clear that for a glider with an experimental
certificate, you can pretty much install an ELT any way you want, and
likely get away with signing it off yourself (as a non-A&P). I think it
is also fairly clear that an ELT installation in a type certified glider
will require at least an A&P (and possibly IA) sign off, but probably
does not require a 337. The question in my mind, however, is whether
the typical A&P (or IA) would be willing to sign off an ELT installation
in a certified glider, that makes use of uncertified components (like a
rubber ducky). Any A&Ps out there willing to comment?

Marc

As a general rule, it's better not to ask if the answer
might be unpleasant.

Ian





At 00:36 27 September 2005, Jphoenix wrote:
Marc,

Perhaps we could have the SSA government liaison (or
SRA dude) ask all
these questions directly to the FAA. Specifically:

Can a private pilot glider install his own ELT in his
own experimental
glider and sign it off?
Does a TC'd glider need a 337 form completed and approved
(major
alteration)?
Does a glider with an ELT installed have to meet all
(or some) of the
requirements of 91.207?

With an official FAA answer to these questions, and
perhaps some more I
didn't think of, we can avoid uncertainty over what
rules apply and how
they apply, etc.

Jim





I think it is fairly clear that for a glider with
an experimental
certificate, you can pretty much install an ELT any
way you want, and
likely get away with signing it off yourself (as a
non-A&P). I think it
is also fairly clear that an ELT installation in a
type certified glider
will require at least an A&P (and possibly IA) sign
off, but probably
does not require a 337. The question in my mind,
however, is whether
the typical A&P (or IA) would be willing to sign off
an ELT installation
in a certified glider, that makes use of uncertified
components (like a
rubber ducky). Any A&Ps out there willing to comment?

Marc

Perhaps if the rulemakers ask the question and recieve an unpleasant
answer, they will consider any additional unpleasant impact (cost).

Or, maybe the answer is good and we can have uniformity in next year's
contests and people can avoid unnecessary cost of installation. Maybe
we can all install ELT's any way we want without fear of compliance.

In any case, I believe the rulemakers have a duty to resolve any
possible confusion. Just like the real FAA who must consider the
federalism impact (cost) of any rulemaking, including AD's. Creating a
rule that does not match the FAA rule will certainly confuse someone.

Jim

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:
Marc Ramsey wrote:

I think it is fairly clear that for a glider with an experimental
certificate, you can pretty much install an ELT any way you want, and
likely get away with signing it off yourself (as a non-A&P). I think it
is also fairly clear that an ELT installation in a type certified glider
will require at least an A&P (and possibly IA) sign off, but probably
does not require a 337.

I've never owned a type certified glider, and I'll admit my
answer was probably colored somewhat by that fact. However,
if the ELT installation requires an A&P/IA/337 for a
non-required ELT, you begin down the slippery slope of
whether glide computers also require that, and if they
require it, then you must ask whether the A&P/IA/337 must
ensure that the glide computer has TSO certification like
all the other instruments in the panel of any type certified
airplane or glider (which AFAIK, no glider flight computers
have). Now you're staring at the big elephant in the glider
room that so many have been ignoring for so long.

I'm not saying I know the answers here - I don't - which is
why I'm so uncomfortable with some of these issues as they
relate to type certified gliders. My concern, however is
that you may get some very bad answers for soaring as a
sport in the U.S.

The question in my mind, however, is whether
the typical A&P (or IA) would be willing to sign off an ELT installation
in a certified glider, that makes use of uncertified components (like a
rubber ducky). Any A&Ps out there willing to comment?

If the rubber ducky is the only uncertified component in the
glider, I'd breathe a big sigh of relief.

T o d d P a t t i s t - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

Not to mention mylar seals and turbulator tapes. Perhaps they are just
decorative.

Frank Whiteley

Good points.

Paul Remde

"T o d d P a t t i s t" wrote in message
...
Marc Ramsey wrote:

I think it is fairly clear that for a glider with an experimental
certificate, you can pretty much install an ELT any way you want, and
likely get away with signing it off yourself (as a non-A&P). I think it
is also fairly clear that an ELT installation in a type certified glider
will require at least an A&P (and possibly IA) sign off, but probably
does not require a 337.

I've never owned a type certified glider, and I'll admit my
answer was probably colored somewhat by that fact. However,
if the ELT installation requires an A&P/IA/337 for a
non-required ELT, you begin down the slippery slope of
whether glide computers also require that, and if they
require it, then you must ask whether the A&P/IA/337 must
ensure that the glide computer has TSO certification like
all the other instruments in the panel of any type certified
airplane or glider (which AFAIK, no glider flight computers
have). Now you're staring at the big elephant in the glider
room that so many have been ignoring for so long.

I'm not saying I know the answers here - I don't - which is
why I'm so uncomfortable with some of these issues as they
relate to type certified gliders. My concern, however is
that you may get some very bad answers for soaring as a
sport in the U.S.

The question in my mind, however, is whether
the typical A&P (or IA) would be willing to sign off an ELT installation
in a certified glider, that makes use of uncertified components (like a
rubber ducky). Any A&Ps out there willing to comment?

If the rubber ducky is the only uncertified component in the
glider, I'd breathe a big sigh of relief.

T o d d P a t t i s t - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

some years ago I contacted my local FSDO and asked about ELT installation in
my glider..this was long before some SSA sites required them ...knowing the
glider did not "require" an ELT to be legal, the question to the Fed's was
"can I install an ELT if it doesn't meet the manufacturers specifications
(meaning antenna installation). I installed this and several others since
not because the FAA or SSA required it.but because I considered it to be an
inexpensive safety feature that I wanted for myself, and for my loved ones
should there ever be a chance it might be needed. Essentially, the response
was very favorable with them saying "anything you do to promote safety we'll
go along with".Now that response was from MY FSDO (local office). I
installed the ELT in the most professional manner as to location, mounting,
and meeting all other manufacturers requirements, expect, installing a
handheld radios rubber duck antenna on a metal plate for ground plane.....I
completed a 337 and new wt/balance and had the local A&I sign off on the
installation..I also tested the ELT at some range and found the signal to be
actually quite excellent.....Now I never tested it beyond a few miles, and
I'm quite sure a higher performance 1/4 wave fixed mast antenna mounted
external with proper ground plane may have been better.....but this
installation, IMHO did what I wanted and expected.....it would give the S&R
people something to locate the aircraft with....
I also had concerns about externally mounted ELT antenna's being knocked off
in a crash and contacted 3 different ELT manufacturers and found that even
one manufacturer claimed they had certified their brand ELT with NO antenna
installed at all and with the ELT simply sitting on an aircraft wing when it
was tested to be certified. obviously this would not be the highest
performance set-up and not what should be.
I have noted that S-H and DG have made ELT antenna installations in some
gliders that are comprised of nothing more than this same rubber duck
antenna mounted on an angled bracket in the cockpit with essentially no
ground plane........though I do not consider this to be a high performance
set-up, it appears they also think it is suitable......Personally I wish all
glider manufacturers would spend a bit more time and consideration to
building really good antenna's into their structures for Comm, ELT and
Transponders, so far none have.....until then, we have to improvise.and do
the best with what we have.....that is why I have made some "non-certified"
antenna options available, and though I have tried to make it known these
are not certified for use where the FAA mandates ELT use, they will IMHO
work, and simple and inexpensive "options"......if someone (anyone) has a
better option, I would like to see them....and would of course consider
offering them as well...
Best regards
Tim

Wings & Wheels
www.wingsandwheels.com

"jphoenix" wrote in message
oups.com...
Marc,

Perhaps we could have the SSA government liaison (or SRA dude) ask all
these questions directly to the FAA. Specifically:

Can a private pilot glider install his own ELT in his own experimental
glider and sign it off?
Does a TC'd glider need a 337 form completed and approved (major
alteration)?
Does a glider with an ELT installed have to meet all (or some) of the
requirements of 91.207?

With an official FAA answer to these questions, and perhaps some more I
didn't think of, we can avoid uncertainty over what rules apply and how
they apply, etc.

Jim





I think it is fairly clear that for a glider with an experimental
certificate, you can pretty much install an ELT any way you want, and
likely get away with signing it off yourself (as a non-A&P). I think it
is also fairly clear that an ELT installation in a type certified glider
will require at least an A&P (and possibly IA) sign off, but probably
does not require a 337. The question in my mind, however, is whether
the typical A&P (or IA) would be willing to sign off an ELT installation
in a certified glider, that makes use of uncertified components (like a
rubber ducky). Any A&Ps out there willing to comment?

Marc

Hi Tim,

Good points. Do you know if the rubber duck antenna will transmit the
higher frequency signals on 243.0 MHz as from the AmeriKing AK-450 ELT OK?
I'm not an expert on antennas, but I imagine that since it is 2 x the
frequency the antenna is designed for it may work fine.

Thanks,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com

"Tim Mara" wrote in message
...
some years ago I contacted my local FSDO and asked about ELT installation
in my glider..this was long before some SSA sites required them
...knowing the glider did not "require" an ELT to be legal, the question
to the Fed's was "can I install an ELT if it doesn't meet the
manufacturers specifications (meaning antenna installation). I installed
this and several others since not because the FAA or SSA required it.but
because I considered it to be an inexpensive safety feature that I wanted
for myself, and for my loved ones should there ever be a chance it might
be needed. Essentially, the response was very favorable with them saying
"anything you do to promote safety we'll go along with".Now that response
was from MY FSDO (local office). I installed the ELT in the most
professional manner as to location, mounting, and meeting all other
manufacturers requirements, expect, installing a handheld radios rubber
duck antenna on a metal plate for ground plane.....I completed a 337 and
new wt/balance and had the local A&I sign off on the installation..I also
tested the ELT at some range and found the signal to be actually quite
excellent.....Now I never tested it beyond a few miles, and I'm quite sure
a higher performance 1/4 wave fixed mast antenna mounted external with
proper ground plane may have been better.....but this installation, IMHO
did what I wanted and expected.....it would give the S&R people something
to locate the aircraft with....
I also had concerns about externally mounted ELT antenna's being knocked
off in a crash and contacted 3 different ELT manufacturers and found that
even one manufacturer claimed they had certified their brand ELT with NO
antenna installed at all and with the ELT simply sitting on an aircraft
wing when it was tested to be certified. obviously this would not be the
highest performance set-up and not what should be.
I have noted that S-H and DG have made ELT antenna installations in some
gliders that are comprised of nothing more than this same rubber duck
antenna mounted on an angled bracket in the cockpit with essentially no
ground plane........though I do not consider this to be a high performance
set-up, it appears they also think it is suitable......Personally I wish
all glider manufacturers would spend a bit more time and consideration to
building really good antenna's into their structures for Comm, ELT and
Transponders, so far none have.....until then, we have to improvise.and do
the best with what we have.....that is why I have made some
"non-certified" antenna options available, and though I have tried to make
it known these are not certified for use where the FAA mandates ELT use,
they will IMHO work, and simple and inexpensive "options"......if someone
(anyone) has a better option, I would like to see them....and would of
course consider offering them as well...
Best regards
Tim

Wings & Wheels
www.wingsandwheels.com

"jphoenix" wrote in message
oups.com...
Marc,

Perhaps we could have the SSA government liaison (or SRA dude) ask all
these questions directly to the FAA. Specifically:

Can a private pilot glider install his own ELT in his own experimental
glider and sign it off?
Does a TC'd glider need a 337 form completed and approved (major
alteration)?
Does a glider with an ELT installed have to meet all (or some) of the
requirements of 91.207?

With an official FAA answer to these questions, and perhaps some more I
didn't think of, we can avoid uncertainty over what rules apply and how
they apply, etc.

Jim





I think it is fairly clear that for a glider with an experimental
certificate, you can pretty much install an ELT any way you want, and
likely get away with signing it off yourself (as a non-A&P). I think it
is also fairly clear that an ELT installation in a type certified glider
will require at least an A&P (and possibly IA) sign off, but probably
does not require a 337. The question in my mind, however, is whether
the typical A&P (or IA) would be willing to sign off an ELT installation
in a certified glider, that makes use of uncertified components (like a
rubber ducky). Any A&Ps out there willing to comment?

Marc

Tim's comments are very useful.

I am also wrestling with both ELT and transponder antenna installation
issues and wonder why manufacturers don't install them, at least as an
option.

I have one of the ground-plane-less rubber duckies for my ELT and am
going to replace it with an internal dipole, mainly because its
location next to the canopy rear sticks it in my right ear! It will
work perfectly well inside the fiberglass fuselage, where it is also
less likely to suffer damage. I will probably do the same with my
transponder antenna also, although I may stick that in the nose above
my feet.

Certification of avionics is mainly to ensure that the signal is in the
correct frequency and transmitted power with unwanted signals below
stated thresholds. Transponders also need to be tested for encoding.

Antennas are less of an issue since almost anything of about the right
length will work and most transmitter stages can handle pretty awful
impedance mismatches.