No plan survives contact with the enemy...

When I was in the Army, we always said "no plan survives contact with the
enemy". My new mantra is "no flight plan survives contact with Toronto
Terminal". I've flown from various places on the east side of Toronto
(Oshawa, Buttonville, City Center) to Rochester NY about 10-15 times,
almost always on a Sunday afternoon. I try to minimize the time I'm out
over the lake outside of gliding distance. So I file routes that stick to
the narrow end of the lake (I'd like to stay west of AIRCO and BULGE), and
I file for altitudes that feel comfortably high for me (8-10K). I
generally get cleared on one of two routes, both of which would work for
me - either "DIRECT YYZ V31 ROC" or "A21 V234 AIRCO V31 ROC". But as soon
as I contact Toronto, they start jerking me around. First they want me to
go direct to Rochester. I don't want to do that. So they say "ok, then I
have to keep you at 3,000 feet 10 miles off shore". Nope, I can't do that
either. "Ok, then you'll have to go north of Pearson and around
Hamilton".

Today I managed to convince them to let me go direct BUF, and when I got
close enough to the shore they let me turn direct ROC. That's not *too*
far off A21 and BULGE/AIRCO.

But once in a while I've gotten good routes from them on a Sunday.

Is there a secret to getting what I want out of them?

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
A male pilot is a confused soul who talks about women when he's flying,
and about flying when he's with a woman.

I've had the same problem with Chicago and Lake Michigan. There's a V7
airway that isn't too far offshore, but when I filed from Gary to
Madison Saturday via V7, they sent me instead straight north (actual
course about 010 with strong NW winds). I asked for closer inshore
after about 15 minutes and they gave me an amended heading to 340 (big
deal, still left me at 350 with the crosswind). The Chicago Class B
might almost as well be an ADIZ for all the entry they allow except
that you can sneak underneath VFR.

"paul kgyy" wrote in message
oups.com...

I've had the same problem with Chicago and Lake Michigan. There's a V7
airway that isn't too far offshore, but when I filed from Gary to
Madison Saturday via V7, they sent me instead straight north (actual
course about 010 with strong NW winds). I asked for closer inshore
after about 15 minutes and they gave me an amended heading to 340 (big
deal, still left me at 350 with the crosswind). The Chicago Class B
might almost as well be an ADIZ for all the entry they allow except
that you can sneak underneath VFR.


Madison Wisconsin? Why did you want to go north? What was your filed
route?

"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
When I was in the Army, we always said "no plan survives contact with the
enemy". My new mantra is "no flight plan survives contact with Toronto
Terminal". I've flown from various places on the east side of Toronto
(Oshawa, Buttonville, City Center) to Rochester NY about 10-15 times,
almost always on a Sunday afternoon. I try to minimize the time I'm out
over the lake outside of gliding distance. So I file routes that stick to
the narrow end of the lake (I'd like to stay west of AIRCO and BULGE), and
I file for altitudes that feel comfortably high for me (8-10K). I
generally get cleared on one of two routes, both of which would work for
me - either "DIRECT YYZ V31 ROC" or "A21 V234 AIRCO V31 ROC". But as soon
as I contact Toronto, they start jerking me around. First they want me to
go direct to Rochester. I don't want to do that. So they say "ok, then I
have to keep you at 3,000 feet 10 miles off shore". Nope, I can't do that
either. "Ok, then you'll have to go north of Pearson and around
Hamilton".

Today I managed to convince them to let me go direct BUF, and when I got
close enough to the shore they let me turn direct ROC. That's not *too*
far off A21 and BULGE/AIRCO.

But once in a while I've gotten good routes from them on a Sunday.

Is there a secret to getting what I want out of them?

The only secret I know is to cross the border VFR if the weather permits.
That's what I did the only two times I flew near Toronto (once in each
direction). I was able to hug the lake shore, and still had flight
following. (If I were filing IFR, I'd try putting "Unable cross lake" in the
remarks field.)

--Gary

Filed KGYY Niles V7 Thorr OBK V228 KMSN.

I mostly wanted to see what Chicago would give me (curiosity) - also
the filed route would have been a little shorter and smoother than
flying around the southwest side of the Class B.

Clearance was vectors to BAE. Actual was over the lake until past
Kenosha (KENW) then pretty direct to KMSN.

I flew back VFR in half the time, though due in large part to good
winds.

"paul kgyy" wrote in message
oups.com...

Filed KGYY Niles V7 Thorr OBK V228 KMSN.

I mostly wanted to see what Chicago would give me (curiosity) - also
the filed route would have been a little shorter and smoother than
flying around the southwest side of the Class B.

Clearance was vectors to BAE. Actual was over the lake until past
Kenosha (KENW) then pretty direct to KMSN.


You picked up the north departure track, radar vectors to BAE or PETTY.
You'd be heading north until leaving Chicago approach, the
Wisconsin/Illinois state line. You also filed an outbound route over FARMM,
an arrival fix. You should file something that will pick up the west
departure track; DPA, SIMMN, HINCK.

In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" said:
You picked up the north departure track, radar vectors to BAE or PETTY.
You'd be heading north until leaving Chicago approach, the
Wisconsin/Illinois state line. You also filed an outbound route over FARMM,
an arrival fix. You should file something that will pick up the west
departure track; DPA, SIMMN, HINCK.

Is there any way we non-controllers can find this stuff out, except by
experience?


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Don't you just hate them? Don't you just wanna break their ribs,
cut their backs open and pull their lungs out from behind?
-- Ina Faye-Lund, on script kiddies

"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...

Is there any way we non-controllers can find this stuff out, except by
experience?


Practically none. The A/FD has some preferred IFR routes, but they're
primarily high altitude routes between hubs. A study of them can held
discern which are the arrival routes for a location and thus which to avoid
if you're departing that area.

On 10/17/2005 11:33, Paul Tomblin wrote:

In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" said:
You picked up the north departure track, radar vectors to BAE or PETTY.
You'd be heading north until leaving Chicago approach, the
Wisconsin/Illinois state line. You also filed an outbound route over FARMM,
an arrival fix. You should file something that will pick up the west
departure track; DPA, SIMMN, HINCK.

Is there any way we non-controllers can find this stuff out, except by
experience?



We have a similar problem getting out of Sacramento Executive airport.
My CFII said that he went to the tower and got a list of preferred
routes from their secret list.

When I complained that this shouldn't be a secret, he agreed and
offered only that this is an area that should be done better.

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
When I was in the Army, we always said "no plan survives contact with the
enemy". My new mantra is "no flight plan survives contact with Toronto
Terminal". I've flown from various places on the east side of Toronto
(Oshawa, Buttonville, City Center) to Rochester NY about 10-15 times,
almost always on a Sunday afternoon. I try to minimize the time I'm out
over the lake outside of gliding distance. So I file routes that stick to
the narrow end of the lake (I'd like to stay west of AIRCO and BULGE), and
I file for altitudes that feel comfortably high for me (8-10K). I
generally get cleared on one of two routes, both of which would work for
me - either "DIRECT YYZ V31 ROC" or "A21 V234 AIRCO V31 ROC". But as soon
as I contact Toronto, they start jerking me around. First they want me to
go direct to Rochester. I don't want to do that. So they say "ok, then I
have to keep you at 3,000 feet 10 miles off shore". Nope, I can't do that
either. "Ok, then you'll have to go north of Pearson and around
Hamilton".

Today I managed to convince them to let me go direct BUF, and when I got
close enough to the shore they let me turn direct ROC. That's not *too*
far off A21 and BULGE/AIRCO.

But once in a while I've gotten good routes from them on a Sunday.

Is there a secret to getting what I want out of them?


Have you called them on the phone to talk to them about the routing you'd
like to fly? I've solved 99% of my routing problems by just talking to the
controllers either prior to a flight or immediately after (a bad one)